Washington Post article on FCPS' AAP report

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Or perhaps it will be offered on a sliding fee scale. I don't think FCPS is that far along with the details yet.

Yes, I imagine it would be easy to use free and reduced lunch standards to determine which families would also qualify to have testing done for free or at a reduced fee since FCPS already has this information.
I would like to see FCPS handle WISC testing: it would lead to a more level playing field.

In a way I don't like the idea of having the testing done at school. Some people have felt that their child's GBRS was unfairly assigned, and this would typically have been done by a team including the school psychologist, at least at our school. If there is a team of people at the school believing that a DC is not qualified and should be kept out of AAP, I would not want someone from that team administering my child's WISC, if I were the parent. I'm not sure if there are any judgment calls involved that could influence the result of the WISC, but even a severe, negative attitude I would think could cause a DC to stumble and not perform his/her best. I've read that WISC results can vary by even as much as 30 points on different days under different conditions (e.g., tired vs. not tired). To me it isn't hard to imagine that the tester's attitude and demeanor could play a role. At different times with different people I have felt that I've said insightful things (with positive, uplifting people) or a series of dumb things (with critical, condescending people) as a result of how the interaction seemed.

If the school-administered WISC turned out to be low, a parent might always wonder why and whether the result was valid. Having testing done at a different school might help, but there might always be a suspicion of some type of FCPS collusion. A more objective outside party seems better to me. It sounds like that option would be eliminated if all testing is supposed to be from a consistent source.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Or perhaps it will be offered on a sliding fee scale. I don't think FCPS is that far along with the details yet.

Yes, I imagine it would be easy to use free and reduced lunch standards to determine which families would also qualify to have testing done for free or at a reduced fee since FCPS already has this information.
I would like to see FCPS handle WISC testing: it would lead to a more level playing field.

In a way I don't like the idea of having the testing done at school. Some people have felt that their child's GBRS was unfairly assigned, and this would typically have been done by a team including the school psychologist, at least at our school. If there is a team of people at the school believing that a DC is not qualified and should be kept out of AAP, I would not want someone from that team administering my child's WISC, if I were the parent. I'm not sure if there are any judgment calls involved that could influence the result of the WISC, but even a severe, negative attitude I would think could cause a DC to stumble and not perform his/her best. I've read that WISC results can vary by even as much as 30 points on different days under different conditions (e.g., tired vs. not tired). To me it isn't hard to imagine that the tester's attitude and demeanor could play a role. At different times with different people I have felt that I've said insightful things (with positive, uplifting people) or a series of dumb things (with critical, condescending people) as a result of how the interaction seemed.

If the school-administered WISC turned out to be low, a parent might always wonder why and whether the result was valid. Having testing done at a different school might help, but there might always be a suspicion of some type of FCPS collusion. A more objective outside party seems better to me. It sounds like that option would be eliminated if all testing is supposed to be from a consistent source.

There is no perfect solution. What we know is what we have now isn't working. In a perfect world it would be nice to have all kids administered the WISC by outside psychologists like they did in the old days. But cost-wise that is prohibitive. What people on this forum seem to continually forget is that Fairfax County Public School system was not designed to serve primarily advanced academic students. It was designed to serve every student in the best way that limited resources allow. Parents should be happy that appeals to AAP turndowns are even allowed without feeling at liberty to dictate the best possible way their children should be retested so as to catch them at their most alert, non-tired best. This is not how the world works. Someday all these little hothouse flowers are going to have to prove themselves in real world time to real world standards. We do many of them no favors by constantly adjusting circumstances to work around weaknesses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
+100

Very good explanation. There was a WaPo article that ran maybe last weekend and was cited on these threads that also laid out some of the problems with AAP as it stands now. As PP noted, you must be new to the system. Many who are more familiar, including some school board members thought, the article lauding the study in the Post was a joke since it made no mention of the controversy about the program that drove FCPS to commission a review of AAP to begin with.

Sorry, what are we considering the controversy about the program? Was it that so many are now admitted each year, or something else? Services not comparable at different schools?

Both. There are concerns about over-identification, differences in services among schools and levels (Level II and III and afterthought at some schools as these pull outs are often cancelled to devote time to AAP screening, etc.) and equity. Earlier this year school board officials talked about flight from some centers, overcrowding at others.

This was also discussed at last week's work session (on June 27). If you have 3 hours, you can watch video of the work session online:

http://www.ebmcdn.net/fcps/fcps_video_viewer.php?viewnode=4b262ef9532ff

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Or perhaps it will be offered on a sliding fee scale. I don't think FCPS is that far along with the details yet.

Yes, I imagine it would be easy to use free and reduced lunch standards to determine which families would also qualify to have testing done for free or at a reduced fee since FCPS already has this information.
I would like to see FCPS handle WISC testing: it would lead to a more level playing field.

In a way I don't like the idea of having the testing done at school. Some people have felt that their child's GBRS was unfairly assigned, and this would typically have been done by a team including the school psychologist, at least at our school. If there is a team of people at the school believing that a DC is not qualified and should be kept out of AAP, I would not want someone from that team administering my child's WISC, if I were the parent. I'm not sure if there are any judgment calls involved that could influence the result of the WISC, but even a severe, negative attitude I would think could cause a DC to stumble and not perform his/her best. I've read that WISC results can vary by even as much as 30 points on different days under different conditions (e.g., tired vs. not tired). To me it isn't hard to imagine that the tester's attitude and demeanor could play a role. At different times with different people I have felt that I've said insightful things (with positive, uplifting people) or a series of dumb things (with critical, condescending people) as a result of how the interaction seemed.

If the school-administered WISC turned out to be low, a parent might always wonder why and whether the result was valid. Having testing done at a different school might help, but there might always be a suspicion of some type of FCPS collusion. A more objective outside party seems better to me. It sounds like that option would be eliminated if all testing is supposed to be from a consistent source.

The FCPS comment to the GMU recommendation actually suggests both school psychologists and an approved list of testers:

FCPS plans to explore several options to include creation of summer testing clinics by FCPS school psychologists and creating a list of approved external psychologists for individual testing

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Or perhaps it will be offered on a sliding fee scale. I don't think FCPS is that far along with the details yet.

Yes, I imagine it would be easy to use free and reduced lunch standards to determine which families would also qualify to have testing done for free or at a reduced fee since FCPS already has this information.
I would like to see FCPS handle WISC testing: it would lead to a more level playing field.

In a way I don't like the idea of having the testing done at school. Some people have felt that their child's GBRS was unfairly assigned, and this would typically have been done by a team including the school psychologist, at least at our school. If there is a team of people at the school believing that a DC is not qualified and should be kept out of AAP, I would not want someone from that team administering my child's WISC, if I were the parent. I'm not sure if there are any judgment calls involved that could influence the result of the WISC, but even a severe, negative attitude I would think could cause a DC to stumble and not perform his/her best. I've read that WISC results can vary by even as much as 30 points on different days under different conditions (e.g., tired vs. not tired). To me it isn't hard to imagine that the tester's attitude and demeanor could play a role. At different times with different people I have felt that I've said insightful things (with positive, uplifting people) or a series of dumb things (with critical, condescending people) as a result of how the interaction seemed.

If the school-administered WISC turned out to be low, a parent might always wonder why and whether the result was valid. Having testing done at a different school might help, but there might always be a suspicion of some type of FCPS collusion. A more objective outside party seems better to me. It sounds like that option would be eliminated if all testing is supposed to be from a consistent source.

There is no perfect solution. What we know is what we have now isn't working. In a perfect world it would be nice to have all kids administered the WISC by outside psychologists like they did in the old days. But cost-wise that is prohibitive. What people on this forum seem to continually forget is that Fairfax County Public School system was not designed to serve primarily advanced academic students. It was designed to serve every student in the best way that limited resources allow. Parents should be happy that appeals to AAP turndowns are even allowed without feeling at liberty to dictate the best possible way their children should be retested so as to catch them at their most alert, non-tired best. This is not how the world works. Someday all these little hothouse flowers are going to have to prove themselves in real world time to real world standards. We do many of them no favors by constantly adjusting circumstances to work around weaknesses.

In the real world, performance over 1-2 hours rarely has as much impact as WISC does on the next 6 years, and most likely beyond, of someone's life. The SAT can be retaken -- for a much lower cost than WISC -- and multiple college options exist at a similar price range. If you flub a job interview, there is always another job to apply for. But with suboptimal WISC performance, the options may be limited to gen ed for the next 6 years or private school at $30k per year for anything comparable to AAP. There isn't another "free" elementary/middle school option with curriculum and peers of the caliber of what is found in AAP. It is understandable for parents to want some input into who the WISC tester will be.

I saw @20:17 that FCPS will consider creating a list of approved external psychologists. That sounds good to me. Private schools already do this.

[Anonymous]

You can always reapply in later years.

[Anonymous]

True, but if the school psychologist is the only testing option and you think the psychologist is determined to keep your child out, you might not even try. And each year is a long time in the life of a child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Or perhaps it will be offered on a sliding fee scale. I don't think FCPS is that far along with the details yet.

Yes, I imagine it would be easy to use free and reduced lunch standards to determine which families would also qualify to have testing done for free or at a reduced fee since FCPS already has this information.
I would like to see FCPS handle WISC testing: it would lead to a more level playing field.

In a way I don't like the idea of having the testing done at school. Some people have felt that their child's GBRS was unfairly assigned, and this would typically have been done by a team including the school psychologist, at least at our school. If there is a team of people at the school believing that a DC is not qualified and should be kept out of AAP, I would not want someone from that team administering my child's WISC, if I were the parent. I'm not sure if there are any judgment calls involved that could influence the result of the WISC, but even a severe, negative attitude I would think could cause a DC to stumble and not perform his/her best. I've read that WISC results can vary by even as much as 30 points on different days under different conditions (e.g., tired vs. not tired). To me it isn't hard to imagine that the tester's attitude and demeanor could play a role. At different times with different people I have felt that I've said insightful things (with positive, uplifting people) or a series of dumb things (with critical, condescending people) as a result of how the interaction seemed.

If the school-administered WISC turned out to be low, a parent might always wonder why and whether the result was valid. Having testing done at a different school might help, but there might always be a suspicion of some type of FCPS collusion. A more objective outside party seems better to me. It sounds like that option would be eliminated if all testing is supposed to be from a consistent source.

There is no perfect solution. What we know is what we have now isn't working. In a perfect world it would be nice to have all kids administered the WISC by outside psychologists like they did in the old days. But cost-wise that is prohibitive. What people on this forum seem to continually forget is that Fairfax County Public School system was not designed to serve primarily advanced academic students. It was designed to serve every student in the best way that limited resources allow. Parents should be happy that appeals to AAP turndowns are even allowed without feeling at liberty to dictate the best possible way their children should be retested so as to catch them at their most alert, non-tired best. This is not how the world works. Someday all these little hothouse flowers are going to have to prove themselves in real world time to real world standards. We do many of them no favors by constantly adjusting circumstances to work around weaknesses.

In the real world, performance over 1-2 hours rarely has as much impact as WISC does on the next 6 years, and most likely beyond, of someone's life. The SAT can be retaken -- for a much lower cost than WISC -- and multiple college options exist at a similar price range. If you flub a job interview, there is always another job to apply for. But with suboptimal WISC performance, the options may be limited to gen ed for the next 6 years or private school at $30k per year for anything comparable to AAP. There isn't another "free" elementary/middle school option with curriculum and peers of the caliber of what is found in AAP. It is understandable for parents to want some input into who the WISC tester will be.

I saw @20:17 that FCPS will consider creating a list of approved external psychologists. That sounds good to me. Private schools already do this.

You are overstating the importance of the testing in 1st and 2nd grade. Students are admitted into AAP every year from 3rd through 8th grade. One low Cogat, NNAT or WISC score will not doom the child for the next six years. Nor will several "low" scores. There are other tests besides the WISC to administer and WISC can be retaken the next year. Even if the child does not get accepted into AAP in ES, they can take all Honors in Middle School and/or take the Honors and AP classes in HS right along with their AAP classmates. Being in GenEd for a few years doesn't doom a child to mediocrity just as admittance to AAP doesn't guarantee future success in life.

What matters is what the child does with what he/she is given. If you think your child is bored in Gen ED but is denied AAP, then enrich his/her life outside of school. School is less than half their waking hours during the school year and 1/4 of the year there is no school. Plenty of time for enrichment.

[Anonymous]

I agree with you about many options for challenge and enrichment, and taking a longer and broader view. But I simply don't believe that WISC testers for AAP appeal should be limited to school psychologists, who were likely already part of the GBRS team and may have preconceived notions about the child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:True, but if the school psychologist is the only testing option and you think the psychologist is determined to keep your child out, you might not even try. And each year is a long time in the life of a child.

I agree with this. The school told me that they did not care much for my DS. He was "low average" and would be perfect for their gen ed program. Odd, his test score and behavior scores were above 99% (tops out 99%) He had scored very high on the WISC. He was not a behavior problem. They could not "wait" to get him into their gen ed program. We appealed and went to the center school. Straight As throughout. Published. At Ivy now. The school just did not like /us/him something. That school is typically not very nice to the AAP students we found out later. So glad that we appealed/passed through the program, are out now. I still get a very funny feeling about what if we had gone with their assessment?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree with you about many options for challenge and enrichment, and taking a longer and broader view. But I simply don't believe that WISC testers for AAP appeal should be limited to school psychologists, who were likely already part of the GBRS team and may have preconceived notions about the child.

That would depend on the school. The team listed on my DC1's GBRS consisted of the classroom teacher, the AART and the assistant principal, not the school psychologist. In the AAP office's Parent Information Packet, the school psychologist isn't even listed as someone who might be on the local screening committee except perhaps in the catchall "other specialists as needed". A school psychologist might have preconceived notions about a particular child (and probably would for my DC2), but it most likely wouldn't be from the GBRS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Or perhaps it will be offered on a sliding fee scale. I don't think FCPS is that far along with the details yet.

Yes, I imagine it would be easy to use free and reduced lunch standards to determine which families would also qualify to have testing done for free or at a reduced fee since FCPS already has this information.
I would like to see FCPS handle WISC testing: it would lead to a more level playing field.

In a way I don't like the idea of having the testing done at school. Some people have felt that their child's GBRS was unfairly assigned, and this would typically have been done by a team including the school psychologist, at least at our school. If there is a team of people at the school believing that a DC is not qualified and should be kept out of AAP, I would not want someone from that team administering my child's WISC, if I were the parent. I'm not sure if there are any judgment calls involved that could influence the result of the WISC, but even a severe, negative attitude I would think could cause a DC to stumble and not perform his/her best. I've read that WISC results can vary by even as much as 30 points on different days under different conditions (e.g., tired vs. not tired). To me it isn't hard to imagine that the tester's attitude and demeanor could play a role. At different times with different people I have felt that I've said insightful things (with positive, uplifting people) or a series of dumb things (with critical, condescending people) as a result of how the interaction seemed.

If the school-administered WISC turned out to be low, a parent might always wonder why and whether the result was valid. Having testing done at a different school might help, but there might always be a suspicion of some type of FCPS collusion. A more objective outside party seems better to me. It sounds like that option would be eliminated if all testing is supposed to be from a consistent source.

There is no perfect solution. What we know is what we have now isn't working. In a perfect world it would be nice to have all kids administered the WISC by outside psychologists like they did in the old days. But cost-wise that is prohibitive. What people on this forum seem to continually forget is that Fairfax County Public School system was not designed to serve primarily advanced academic students. It was designed to serve every student in the best way that limited resources allow. Parents should be happy that appeals to AAP turndowns are even allowed without feeling at liberty to dictate the best possible way their children should be retested so as to catch them at their most alert, non-tired best. This is not how the world works. Someday all these little hothouse flowers are going to have to prove themselves in real world time to real world standards. We do many of them no favors by constantly adjusting circumstances to work around weaknesses.

In the real world, performance over 1-2 hours rarely has as much impact as WISC does on the next 6 years, and most likely beyond, of someone's life. The SAT can be retaken -- for a much lower cost than WISC -- and multiple college options exist at a similar price range. If you flub a job interview, there is always another job to apply for. But with suboptimal WISC performance, the options may be limited to gen ed for the next 6 years or private school at $30k per year for anything comparable to AAP. There isn't another "free" elementary/middle school option with curriculum and peers of the caliber of what is found in AAP. It is understandable for parents to want some input into who the WISC tester will be.

I saw @20:17 that FCPS will consider creating a list of approved external psychologists. That sounds good to me. Private schools already do this.

You are overstating the importance of the testing in 1st and 2nd grade. Students are admitted into AAP every year from 3rd through 8th grade. One low Cogat, NNAT or WISC score will not doom the child for the next six years. Nor will several "low" scores. There are other tests besides the WISC to administer and WISC can be retaken the next year. Even if the child does not get accepted into AAP in ES, they can take all Honors in Middle School and/or take the Honors and AP classes in HS right along with their AAP classmates. Being in GenEd for a few years doesn't doom a child to mediocrity just as admittance to AAP doesn't guarantee future success in life.

What matters is what the child does with what he/she is given. If you think your child is bored in Gen ED but is denied AAP, then enrich his/her life outside of school. School is less than half their waking hours during the school year and 1/4 of the year there is no school. Plenty of time for enrichment.

I totally agree. I think AAP is so hyped and its importance overblown here in FCPS. I have one in AAP and one not. I don't doubt the one who is "just" smart will probably do better in school and in life even without AAP. No one is "doomed" if they don't get into AAP.

[Anonymous]

At our school GBRS was prepared by second grade teacher, AART, principal, school counselor, and second grade counselor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:True, but if the school psychologist is the only testing option and you think the psychologist is determined to keep your child out, you might not even try. And each year is a long time in the life of a child.

I agree with this. The school told me that they did not care much for my DS. He was "low average" and would be perfect for their gen ed program. Odd, his test score and behavior scores were above 99% (tops out 99%) He had scored very high on the WISC. He was not a behavior problem. They could not "wait" to get him into their gen ed program. We appealed and went to the center school. Straight As throughout. Published. At Ivy now. The school just did not like /us/him something. That school is typically not very nice to the AAP students we found out later. So glad that we appealed/passed through the program, are out now. I still get a very funny feeling about what if we had gone with their assessment?

Really?????

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:FCPS is famous for praising itself to the skies and beyond. They see no wrong anywhere in anything they do. It is just --- we are the BEST. Annoying and inaccurate.

+1000