Protecting special needs children from harsh discipline in school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thank you for all the good info. Will definitely look into a FBA and BIP. Had never heard of those before but will ask our school.

It's hard to believe that anyone on a special needs forum would assume I'm trying to set the ground for DC to get away with bad behavior at school. DC has a problem and sometimes the punishment has been public humiliation (in front of his peers) and the teacher mocking or imitating him. Yes, I heard it. I was there. So please, for those of who you doubted me, just get off my back or go write on a different thread. There are plenty more threads to choose from. I don't need your doubt or lack of support for my thread.

As for those who have been very supportive and helpful, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Special needs children sometimes just don't get why what they do is wrong or they simply can not control their impulses as well. While we're all trying to mold their behavior it's important for preserve their self esteem because, God knows, the world is ready and waiting for them and will do a great job of chipping away at their self esteem at some point in their future.

OP:
Your school may not know a lot about FBAs and BIPs either (sad, but often true)
Read and share from NICHCY: http://nichcy.org/schoolage/behavior/atschool
NICHCY has phenomenally great resources for parents of kids with special needs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those of you who are suggesting the OP is trying to get away with not having her child receive any discipline should be ashamed of yourselves. What responsible parent would want that for their child? Why not extend the benefit of the doubt here and assume the question was asked in good faith?

OP, I would suggest a behavioralist approach. I think your child may need an FBA (Functional Behavioral Analysis) to take a data-driven approach to what sets him off, what the various preceding events are, what the "punishment" is (because when the so-called punishment is actually a reward? like, say, getting to go home? then it's not an effective punishment at all and only reinforces bad behavior. Then the next step is a BIP (Behavior Improvement Plan). This is to modify the escalation behaviors, and also the punishment/reward systems. It should be done by someone who is trained in the field, not just anyone who is on staff.

The right behavioral analysis and supports can make an enormous difference for an impulsive child who hasn't mastered self-control (for his age level).

Good luck, OP.

No one was "suggesting" that OP was trying to "get away" with anything. Are YOU extending the benefit of the doubt?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I am.

OTOH, did YOU read the thread? No, obviously not, or you would have noticed people suggesting she was trying to find a way to let her child get away with bad behavior and avoid discipline.

Seriously, those of you who are so ignorant of Special Needs students and their families should just go away. This used to be the only nice thread on DCUM, but clearly there are some bitter ignoramuses just anxious to poison this one as well. You don't know anything and have nothing of value to contribute. For heaven's sake just STFU.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DS has a behavior plan at school to deal with attention issues - he has an IEP on account of ADHD. He gets smileys for staying on focus/doing work etc. and gets warnings. If he doesn't get a set number of smileys, he spends some time in the principal's office after school. It has worked pretty well but what has made a difference is finding the right medication and his getting greater maturity as well. Although he still has the behavior plan, behavior has not been an issue this year.

I think you can get this into the IEP in a positive way -- creating a behavior plan that you have to approve and that has certain consequences. I don't know what harsh discipline was involved in your case, OP, but you can get the IEP to spell out what methods/consequences will be used. Good luck!

Just curious how old your son is, PP. I'm wondering when the "greater maturity" may kick in!

Not the PP to whom you are referring, but another PP whose child had a positive behavior plan. The maturity kicked in for my son at around age 9.5. Because he was held back, that placed him at the beginning of second quarter of third grade. It was a life changing experience - for the good. I never thought I would have seen the day. . .

Thanks. Good to know. Two years and counting!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those of you who are suggesting the OP is trying to get away with not having her child receive any discipline should be ashamed of yourselves. What responsible parent would want that for their child? Why not extend the benefit of the doubt here and assume the question was asked in good faith?

OP, I would suggest a behavioralist approach. I think your child may need an FBA (Functional Behavioral Analysis) to take a data-driven approach to what sets him off, what the various preceding events are, what the "punishment" is (because when the so-called punishment is actually a reward? like, say, getting to go home? then it's not an effective punishment at all and only reinforces bad behavior. Then the next step is a BIP (Behavior Improvement Plan). This is to modify the escalation behaviors, and also the punishment/reward systems. It should be done by someone who is trained in the field, not just anyone who is on staff.

The right behavioral analysis and supports can make an enormous difference for an impulsive child who hasn't mastered self-control (for his age level).

Good luck, OP.

No one was "suggesting" that OP was trying to "get away" with anything. Are YOU extending the benefit of the doubt?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I am.

OTOH, did YOU read the thread? No, obviously not, or you would have noticed people suggesting she was trying to find a way to let her child get away with bad behavior and avoid discipline.

Seriously, those of you who are so ignorant of Special Needs students and their families should just go away. This used to be the only nice thread on DCUM, but clearly there are some bitter ignoramuses just anxious to poison this one as well. You don't know anything and have nothing of value to contribute. For heaven's sake just STFU.

Sigh. I find it so ironic when people complain that the forum has gotten ugly and bitter and poisonous, and then curse everyone and tell people to leave. If you feel this place is getting toxic, at least stop being part of the problem.

What I saw is posters asking for more detail about what OP (and she admitted this) had not identified as "harsh discipline." Some of those questions were pointed. One poster -- one -- was mean-spirited. The rest were seeking more detail about the level of discipline that was harsh. There were no posts that I thought were "ignorant" of SN families.

[Anonymous]

OP here. My question on this thread was simply - what is the process to getting my child protection from harsh punishment/discipline at school? This question can be answered without opening up a new and separate discussion or debate as to what constitutes "harsh" discipline. The question as to what truly constitutes harsh discipline is not for DCUMer's to debate or decide, after all, it is for me, my husband, an attorney (which we're seeking), my child's psychiatrist, and the school to decide. I wasn't asking for you to get in on this discussion too.

So it does beg the question - why do some PP's need to know what the actual discipline or punishment was and why do some PP's need to know what the misbehavior was if this issue will be decided by our school and his psychiatrist and attorney? The only reason I can fathom is to ensure that I not be permitted to allow my child to "get away" from appropriate disciplining for his misbehavior by opening up a debate first, determining if it warrants protection in an IEP, and then deciding whether support for me or my child is justified. So if you are one of those people who needs to determine if my child is worthy of protection here first, I would suggest you ignore this thread and get on another one of the threads available to you in the SN forum. You're looking to stir the pot and I'm not interested in giving you a mixing spoon.

[Anonymous]

First time post to this thread, and I'm not interested in know what your child did or how they were punished. As the parent of a special needs kid and 2 typical children, I'll say that if your kid does something wrong they need to "do their time" and learn their lesson. If your kid's special needs are such that they can't properly integrate into a "typical" classroom then they should in fact be removed from the typical school system and placed elsewhere. There are schools in MCPS that can handle those types of circumstances.

I know we as special needs parents, particularly those, that are on the fringes of being "typical" want so badly to integrate our kids into the typical classes. However, it's important that they be ready for that. PERIOD. If they are not, then you are only doing your child and the rest of your community a disservice.

[Anonymous]

OP here. I agree with you, PP, on the point that all children need to learn accountability and most special needs children can indeed still learn that through proper disciplining.

But as for SN kids who can not integrate into a typical classroom needing to be removed from the typical school system, I disagree. I guess it boils down to your definition of integrating. Most special needs kids do not integrate well and thats why they are called "special needs" kids. Either they have behavior issues or learning issues or social issues...which don't allow for seamless integration among their neurotypical peers.

Our laws dictate that special needs children can and should be integrated into the typical classroom regardless of these issues. The exception is for those special needs children who have such significant issues that their own needs can not be met in the typical classroom. We have one ASD child in our school who is nonverbal and he receives all day, one-on-one education with a special needs teacher. He is separated from everyone else. My child is not ASD and is not non-verbal. He has SPD. He has issues that will not allow for a perfect integration into a typical classroom but he has every right and reason to be in a typical classroom nonetheless. This isn't a philosophical question, it's a legal mandate.

[Anonymous]

OP here. My question on this thread was simply - what is the process to getting my child protection from harsh punishment/discipline at school? This question can be answered without opening up a new and separate discussion or debate as to what constitutes "harsh" discipline. The question as to what truly constitutes harsh discipline is not for DCUMer's to debate or decide, after all, it is for me, my husband, an attorney (which we're seeking), my child's psychiatrist, and the school to decide. I wasn't asking for you to get in on this discussion too.

No, OP, the question cannot be answered without a discussion of definitions. Even you in the post above this one recognizes that the importance of definitions (when you suggest a position "boils down to your definition of integrating"). The question you asked originally depends on what you mean by the words "protection" and "harsh punishment/discipline". Unless you are willing to define these terms and give examples, it will take a long time and a lot of speculation before someone guesses at what you mean and tries to tell you what you want to hear. For example, if your definition of harsh is physical abuse or correction, then the advice I would give you for seeking protection would be very different than if you thought harsh means having recess taken away. We don't know you, how can we possibly know what you mean by harsh?

Unless, of course, you wanted the obvious answer. Get it in the IEP in the form of a behavior plan. But, according to you, you have a team of people deciding what harsh discipline is. Which begs the question, what are you really asking us for? Examples of behavior plans you can bring to your IEP? Then ask for that, and you will get more helpful responses if you give us an age range and a general diagnosis. We can only be as helpful as you let us and it is incredibly unfair to get defensive (and offensive) because you are asking strangers for something without giving them all the information they need to be helpful.

And to the PP who is telling people to STFU because s/he thinks some posters don't understand Special Needs families because they post something challenging or suspicious, please dial it back. SN families are as unique among other SN families as they are among NT families (if one can fairly make these generalizations). My SN family is not the same as yours and I don't want you speaking for me. I don't want people to STFU. I want to know what all parents think of the topics posted here, because that is the world my child lives in and it helps me stay grounded in the world around me. Yes, I appreciate the support of SN families, especially when I meet families facing similar challenges. That said, I appreciate most all posters because I learn something from them. What makes this forum great is when we have real, respectful, diverse, and intelligent conversations about our kids and what they need. Let's not compromise that by telling people to shut up. It doesn't elevate us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

OP here. My question on this thread was simply - what is the process to getting my child protection from harsh punishment/discipline at school? This question can be answered without opening up a new and separate discussion or debate as to what constitutes "harsh" discipline. The question as to what truly constitutes harsh discipline is not for DCUMer's to debate or decide, after all, it is for me, my husband, an attorney (which we're seeking), my child's psychiatrist, and the school to decide. I wasn't asking for you to get in on this discussion too.

No, OP, the question cannot be answered without a discussion of definitions. Even you in the post above this one recognizes that the importance of definitions (when you suggest a position "boils down to your definition of integrating"). The question you asked originally depends on what you mean by the words "protection" and "harsh punishment/discipline". Unless you are willing to define these terms and give examples, it will take a long time and a lot of speculation before someone guesses at what you mean and tries to tell you what you want to hear. For example, if your definition of harsh is physical abuse or correction, then the advice I would give you for seeking protection would be very different than if you thought harsh means having recess taken away. We don't know you, how can we possibly know what you mean by harsh?

Unless, of course, you wanted the obvious answer. Get it in the IEP in the form of a behavior plan. But, according to you, you have a team of people deciding what harsh discipline is. Which begs the question, what are you really asking us for? Examples of behavior plans you can bring to your IEP? Then ask for that, and you will get more helpful responses if you give us an age range and a general diagnosis. We can only be as helpful as you let us and it is incredibly unfair to get defensive (and offensive) because you are asking strangers for something without giving them all the information they need to be helpful.

And to the PP who is telling people to STFU because s/he thinks some posters don't understand Special Needs families because they post something challenging or suspicious, please dial it back. SN families are as unique among other SN families as they are among NT families (if one can fairly make these generalizations). My SN family is not the same as yours and I don't want you speaking for me. I don't want people to STFU. I want to know what all parents think of the topics posted here, because that is the world my child lives in and it helps me stay grounded in the world around me. Yes, I appreciate the support of SN families, especially when I meet families facing similar challenges. That said, I appreciate most all posters because I learn something from them. What makes this forum great is when we have real, respectful, diverse, and intelligent conversations about our kids and what they need. Let's not compromise that by telling people to shut up. It doesn't elevate us.

Several people answered my question in pp's...without asking me what my child did and without asking me what the punishment was. So how is it that THEY were able to answer my question without delving into a deeper discussion of definitions? So I'm saying knowing what I define as harsh isn't really necessary to provide an answer. The pp's suggested behavior plans. And to answer your question now, yes, I'd love to know examples of behavior plans I can bring to my child's IEP. I already gave not a general diagnosis of my child but a specific one - I said he has ADHD and SPD. I thought I already mentioned that he is seven years old also.

As much as I'd like to say or think that the SN forum is different from all other forums on DCUM, that people here are always warm, empathetic, and supportive, that is, sadly, not always true. Parents of SN kids don't become noble and derive some kind of integrity simply because they gave birth to SN kids. They are really no different than parents of non-SN kids and sadly I've read and experienced snarky, snide, unsupportive comments here and elsewhere enough times to know not to provide too much information that will get me caught up in those kind of discussions. I'm trying to keep it focused on my question, which is simply, can I put something in an IEP to protect my child? What? How? What have people done for their children?

I'm writing here because I haven't retained an attorney...yet. If they're too expensive I might not be able to. All I have at my disposal is a psychiatrist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those of you who are suggesting the OP is trying to get away with not having her child receive any discipline should be ashamed of yourselves. What responsible parent would want that for their child? Why not extend the benefit of the doubt here and assume the question was asked in good faith?

OP, I would suggest a behavioralist approach. I think your child may need an FBA (Functional Behavioral Analysis) to take a data-driven approach to what sets him off, what the various preceding events are, what the "punishment" is (because when the so-called punishment is actually a reward? like, say, getting to go home? then it's not an effective punishment at all and only reinforces bad behavior. Then the next step is a BIP (Behavior Improvement Plan). This is to modify the escalation behaviors, and also the punishment/reward systems. It should be done by someone who is trained in the field, not just anyone who is on staff.

The right behavioral analysis and supports can make an enormous difference for an impulsive child who hasn't mastered self-control (for his age level).

Good luck, OP.

12:31 again. Here's an example of why the OP's question and point are to be taken very, VERY seriously:

In Mercer County, Kentucky, nine year old Chris Baker, an Autistic student, was told by his special education aide to climb inside a bag intended for therapeutic purposes as a punishment to "control his autistic behavior" on 14 December 2011. He was placed in the bag with the drawstring tightened and left in the hallway in the school. When his mother, Sandra Baker, was called to the school to get her son, she demanded that he be removed from the bag right away. The teacher struggled to undo the drawstring, and Chris emerged sweaty and non-communicative. According to the teacher, this had been done several times over the last year, but Sandra didn't know until this latest incident.


Full story here.

To be fair, this was in The South.

[Anonymous]

Just a side note. I have observed that many MoCo teachers could use some help with discipline techniques, not just for SN children but for NT children as well. Raising the issue of appropriate discipline for your own SN child may help the others as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those of you who are suggesting the OP is trying to get away with not having her child receive any discipline should be ashamed of yourselves. What responsible parent would want that for their child? Why not extend the benefit of the doubt here and assume the question was asked in good faith?

OP, I would suggest a behavioralist approach. I think your child may need an FBA (Functional Behavioral Analysis) to take a data-driven approach to what sets him off, what the various preceding events are, what the "punishment" is (because when the so-called punishment is actually a reward? like, say, getting to go home? then it's not an effective punishment at all and only reinforces bad behavior. Then the next step is a BIP (Behavior Improvement Plan). This is to modify the escalation behaviors, and also the punishment/reward systems. It should be done by someone who is trained in the field, not just anyone who is on staff.

The right behavioral analysis and supports can make an enormous difference for an impulsive child who hasn't mastered self-control (for his age level).

Good luck, OP.

12:31 again. Here's an example of why the OP's question and point are to be taken very, VERY seriously:

In Mercer County, Kentucky, nine year old Chris Baker, an Autistic student, was told by his special education aide to climb inside a bag intended for therapeutic purposes as a punishment to "control his autistic behavior" on 14 December 2011. He was placed in the bag with the drawstring tightened and left in the hallway in the school. When his mother, Sandra Baker, was called to the school to get her son, she demanded that he be removed from the bag right away. The teacher struggled to undo the drawstring, and Chris emerged sweaty and non-communicative. According to the teacher, this had been done several times over the last year, but Sandra didn't know until this latest incident.


Full story here.

To be fair, this was in The South.

Easily the most stupid remark I've ever read. The most entrenched racism in America is in L.A., Cincinnati, and New York.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

OP here. My question on this thread was simply - what is the process to getting my child protection from harsh punishment/discipline at school? This question can be answered without opening up a new and separate discussion or debate as to what constitutes "harsh" discipline. The question as to what truly constitutes harsh discipline is not for DCUMer's to debate or decide, after all, it is for me, my husband, an attorney (which we're seeking), my child's psychiatrist, and the school to decide. I wasn't asking for you to get in on this discussion too.

No, OP, the question cannot be answered without a discussion of definitions. Even you in the post above this one recognizes that the importance of definitions (when you suggest a position "boils down to your definition of integrating"). The question you asked originally depends on what you mean by the words "protection" and "harsh punishment/discipline". Unless you are willing to define these terms and give examples, it will take a long time and a lot of speculation before someone guesses at what you mean and tries to tell you what you want to hear. For example, if your definition of harsh is physical abuse or correction, then the advice I would give you for seeking protection would be very different than if you thought harsh means having recess taken away. We don't know you, how can we possibly know what you mean by harsh?

Unless, of course, you wanted the obvious answer. Get it in the IEP in the form of a behavior plan. But, according to you, you have a team of people deciding what harsh discipline is. Which begs the question, what are you really asking us for? Examples of behavior plans you can bring to your IEP? Then ask for that, and you will get more helpful responses if you give us an age range and a general diagnosis. We can only be as helpful as you let us and it is incredibly unfair to get defensive (and offensive) because you are asking strangers for something without giving them all the information they need to be helpful.

And to the PP who is telling people to STFU because s/he thinks some posters don't understand Special Needs families because they post something challenging or suspicious, please dial it back. SN families are as unique among other SN families as they are among NT families (if one can fairly make these generalizations). My SN family is not the same as yours and I don't want you speaking for me. I don't want people to STFU. I want to know what all parents think of the topics posted here, because that is the world my child lives in and it helps me stay grounded in the world around me. Yes, I appreciate the support of SN families, especially when I meet families facing similar challenges. That said, I appreciate most all posters because I learn something from them. What makes this forum great is when we have real, respectful, diverse, and intelligent conversations about our kids and what they need. Let's not compromise that by telling people to shut up. It doesn't elevate us.

Several people answered my question in pp's...without asking me what my child did and without asking me what the punishment was. So how is it that THEY were able to answer my question without delving into a deeper discussion of definitions? So I'm saying knowing what I define as harsh isn't really necessary to provide an answer. The pp's suggested behavior plans. And to answer your question now, yes, I'd love to know examples of behavior plans I can bring to my child's IEP. I already gave not a general diagnosis of my child but a specific one - I said he has ADHD and SPD. I thought I already mentioned that he is seven years old also.

As much as I'd like to say or think that the SN forum is different from all other forums on DCUM, that people here are always warm, empathetic, and supportive, that is, sadly, not always true. Parents of SN kids don't become noble and derive some kind of integrity simply because they gave birth to SN kids. They are really no different than parents of non-SN kids and sadly I've read and experienced snarky, snide, unsupportive comments here and elsewhere enough times to know not to provide too much information that will get me caught up in those kind of discussions. I'm trying to keep it focused on my question, which is simply, can I put something in an IEP to protect my child? What? How? What have people done for their children?

I'm writing here because I haven't retained an attorney...yet. If they're too expensive I might not be able to. All I have at my disposal is a psychiatrist.

Different poster. But that wasn't your question. Had that been your question, your question could have been quickly and easily answered, without all this debate and acrimony. Look at your originally question, and the title of your thread. Can you not see the difference in tone, and the vagueness of the original post? Can you not even admit a little bit that you opened the door to this debate? I mean really OP. Capacity for self-reflection is everything in my book.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DS has a behavior plan at school to deal with attention issues - he has an IEP on account of ADHD. He gets smileys for staying on focus/doing work etc. and gets warnings. If he doesn't get a set number of smileys, he spends some time in the principal's office after school. It has worked pretty well but what has made a difference is finding the right medication and his getting greater maturity as well. Although he still has the behavior plan, behavior has not been an issue this year.

I think you can get this into the IEP in a positive way -- creating a behavior plan that you have to approve and that has certain consequences. I don't know what harsh discipline was involved in your case, OP, but you can get the IEP to spell out what methods/consequences will be used. Good luck!

Just curious how old your son is, PP. I'm wondering when the "greater maturity" may kick in!

He's 8. Like I said when I posted, it COULD be some amount of greater maturity, but the right medication (which isn't perfect, but works better -- and it took more than a year of trial and error, and patience, to find it) also has made a difference. Good luck!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How does one go about doing this? Is this something that must be put into an IEP? My child has adhd and spd and can be impulsive. While some acts are overlooked others are punished as though he has no neurological issue whatsoever.

You can get a behavior plan through the school. An example in my son's case was that instead os using the green/yellow/red card program that MCPS uses in ES, my son was given a checklist of activities he had to complete at various points in the day. Instead of requiring that he sit in his seat to work, he was allowed to stand or sit on the floor so long as he wasn't disruptive.

Now to the however. The school is still a zero tolerance zone when it comes to any type of violence and he would never have been given a pass or a less stringent punishment if he hit someone on the playground. Even though he is extremely impulsive, he is expected to tell an adult if someone does something to him and would be punished just as any other kid if he, say, pushed the offending kid instead of getting an adult.

One last thing. In my experience in MCPS, recess is rarely taken away from kids. Sometimes if the kids don't get their work finished, they are offered the opportunity to spend half of recess inside rather than taking the work home to finish. The only other time recess is taken away is for a serious rule violation, such as bullying, hitting or the like. Then, depending on the infraction, recess is taken away for multiple days and the kids have to spend the time in the principal's office. Again, even with the behavior program, my son would be subject to the same discipline. Personally, I don't have an issue with this though because, hard as it is for him, he has to learn to control himself and I would prefer that people are hard on him in ES rather than letting him off easy and then suspending him in MS.

You have got to be kidding. There is a thread on the MD public school board - it happens all the time - in multiple schools.