DH does NOT want to fill out an adoption reference form for his brother- WWYD?

[Anonymous]

OP, best to leave the dog out of it. I happen to agree with you, but do think it's a stretch to say people who aren't good dog owners will also beat their kids.

More concerning to me is the volatility of their relationship. Hiding a passport? Physical violence? These are huge red flags to me. HUGE. This child could wind up really coming to harm in such a relationship. Kids don't do what we want them to. Mom and dad sound like they have no emotional skills to deal with this. If they've changed or sought therapy that may be one thing but -- yikes.

I think the ethics here are clear: your obligation to protect an innocent child trumps family loyalty here. Tell the truth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DH should tell BIL that he doesn't feel comfortable writing the letter bc he is rarely around them, and when he was, BIL and SIL were clearly in a rough patch. He can say that he feels uncomfortable and doesn't want to hurt their chances of being parents, it's just that he really doesn't have the right information to fill out the forms.

Then he has the opportunity to ask how BIL and SIL are doing now in their marriage and talk to BIL about how prepared he feels about raising a child. That will tell you whether there is anything currently that HAS to be reported to the agency (ie any knowledge that a child would be actively in danger. You do not have this now, what you have are suspicions based on things that happened a while ago).

DH should not cave and write the letter. He does not have any basis on which to recommend his brother for adopting. If BIL presses him, he should be honest that he just does not feel comfortable and is concerned based on BIL's past marital difficulties.

This is the best advice that has been given. It's honest, without being hurtful to your BIL.

Good luck, OP. Let us know what you ultimately decide.

For those that spank/hit their dogs, it does nothing but show agression and your lack of control. Dogs will act guilty just because of your demeanor, not because they did anything wrong. Pick up a book on training animals and read it, for Pete's sake.

[Anonymous]

OP, people have given you lots of thoughts, but one thing I didn't see mentioned is the serious dilemma that you are actually in. If you give a bad reference, you will likely prevent your BIL and SIL from adopting and thereby, by extension, may prevent a child from getting a home. There are way more kids out there to be adopted than there are homes available to them. On the other hand, if you decline to give a reference, you may fail to prevent a child from being placed with your BIL and SIL. So, if they really would be a bad home, they might get a kid because someone else gives them a reference. In other words, it is pretty important that you get your decision right because either way, you could be screwing up lives.

Before you decide what to do, I think you should think long and hard about what you actually know and what you perceive. If you think you know something, you should think about your source of the information and whether it is reliable enough to believe it. You should also think long and hard about your prejudices. I say this because of your view about their being abusive to their dog, which you even recognize is not necessarily a mainstream view. Personally, I don't condone hitting a dog (or a kid), but, unless it's out of hand, people are allowed to hit their dogs (and kids for that matter, much as it disturbs me). I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you've observed them spanking their dog, it would be fair to say what you observed. But calling them abusive might not be.

[Anonymous]

OP here. Thanks everyone for responding. I really appreciate it because it IS a serious situation, as you have all noted.

16:01, thanks for your thoughts about my prejudices. I should've made clear that I don't think DH would include the dog hitting in any reference; I more included that info here as part of what I think is BIL's temper. The dog cowers when BIL is around. I have indeed watched them hit the dog. If DH does write a reference that includes what he's seen, I would encourage him to write things in very neutral terms. Like you said, just write the facts and leave out any judgments.

Without getting into too many specifics, DH was there for a lot of the fights/police being called. I believe him. He does not want to hurt his brother in any way but does have serious doubts. As you said, it's a tough one. If DH does not write a reference, BIL will probably find someone else who will give a great one. Hopefully the adoption agency (whom I have my doubts about anyway) will be able to discern anything important from their homestudy interviews.

[Anonymous]

If you give a bad reference, you will likely prevent your BIL and SIL from adopting and thereby, by extension, may prevent a child from getting a home. There are way more kids out there to be adopted than there are homes available to them.

This is not necessarily the case for a variety of reasons. first off, unless they are adopting an older, special needs child or from foster care, there are usually many more parents willing to adopt than there are children available for adoption. That is why people wait so long to get matched. Also,I have seen some complete whackjobs get their homestudies approved, so a bad reference may not torpedo them. They may just get a good reference from someone else, and not submit the bad reference with the final report.
I am an adoptive parent, an adult adoptee, and active in adoption ethics. I am not making this stuff up.

[Anonymous]

It sounds to me like you just don't have enough information about these people to write a reference that paints a full picture. Your DH spent time with them in the past but it sounds like you barely see them now. While their past behavior is certainly troubling, it also seems unfair to hold it against them when you have nothing to compare it to in the present.

Given that, I would decline to write the reference and I would try not to worry too much about a child being placed in the home (as it sounds like you are, understandably). For all you know they've turned a corner. You just don't have the information you need now to make a judgment, and you also don't seem like an appropriate reference because even though it's your DH's brother, the two are in very poor touch and don't really know each other.

[Anonymous]

Why not let BIL decide?

Have DH say how you empathize with their urge to parent a child and enumerate all the positives of the situation. Then explain your reservations about his and SIL's past lack of communication skills, brutality and emotional immaturity.

Then offer 2 options to them: either an honest reference letter, or no reference at all.

[Anonymous]

It's not cowardly to write a "bad" reference for someone without warning them--we're not talking about recommending someone for a job at McDonald's. The consequences of an instable couple adopting a child are huge. If someone asked me to serve as a job reference or apartment reference and I was unable to give a good reference, I would let them know that they should ask someone else. In this case, though, for the child's sake, I would write as honest and helpful reference as I could--highlighting what I knew as the positives and negatives.

While it's not impossible for people to change the behavior, the kinds of things you describe (and I presume they are mere examples and may just be the tip of the iceburg) are very serious. It would take a very serious commitment and therapy to change their responses to stress and each other. Even if they have done this and changed, then they can own up to their past behavior in the adoption process and explain how they're different now and why they deserve to adopt a child now that they're new people.

It's too bad birth parents don't have to prove fitness before conceiving but that's for another post.

[Anonymous]

I helped block a friend from the police academy because I just didn't think she was a suitable person to carry a gun and fulfill the duties of a police officer. She's very emotional, immature and doesn't always use good judgment. (I like her as a person, and think she's suitable for all sorts of jobs, just not a cop.) And when people have asked me to be a reference for cleared jobs, I only agree if I can recommend them honestly, without misgivings.

I think if you have grave misgivings about your I-L's as parents, you are right to not do a reference. And I think your husband could tell them why. Supporting your family sometimes involves harsh truths. If they have a volatile marriage that they're not bothering to hide from others, then they won't be that surprised if you give them that as a reason why kids might not be a great idea, at least not right now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I helped block a friend from the police academy because I just didn't think she was a suitable person to carry a gun and fulfill the duties of a police officer. She's very emotional, immature and doesn't always use good judgment. (I like her as a person, and think she's suitable for all sorts of jobs, just not a cop.) And when people have asked me to be a reference for cleared jobs, I only agree if I can recommend them honestly, without misgivings.

I think if you have grave misgivings about your I-L's as parents, you are right to not do a reference. And I think your husband could tell them why. Supporting your family sometimes involves harsh truths. If they have a volatile marriage that they're not bothering to hide from others, then they won't be that surprised if you give them that as a reason why kids might not be a great idea, at least not right now.

people here are the worst friends. amazing the sabotage.

[Anonymous]

I think that your husband should refuse to do the reference.

My own marriage has also had some awful moments--no instances of the police being called, but there have been objects thrown, some shocking words said, and a general pattern of emotional abuse. We've now been in therapy (couples AND individual) for around 4 years now, and have made huge strides. I could see someone not wanting the people we were 4 or even 2 years ago to become parents, but things have changed now. The best adoption reference is someone who has a clear picture of how your b-i-l's household is doing at this moment, not years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, best to leave the dog out of it. I happen to agree with you, but do think it's a stretch to say people who aren't good dog owners will also beat their kids.

More concerning to me is the volatility of their relationship. Hiding a passport? Physical violence? These are huge red flags to me. HUGE. This child could wind up really coming to harm in such a relationship. Kids don't do what we want them to. Mom and dad sound like they have no emotional skills to deal with this. If they've changed or sought therapy that may be one thing but -- yikes.

I think the ethics here are clear: your obligation to protect an innocent child trumps family loyalty here. Tell the truth.

Agree with this and would reiterate that you have do have a moral obligation to protect an innocent child.

Re: reports from DH and MIL that things in the marriage seem to have improved, I would caution that as most of us know, adding a child to the family is one of the greatest stressors even a good marriage endures. Even if BIL and his wife seem to be going better currently, I wouldn't count on those improvements to be strong enough to withstand the arrival of a needy, dependent child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I helped block a friend from the police academy because I just didn't think she was a suitable person to carry a gun and fulfill the duties of a police officer. She's very emotional, immature and doesn't always use good judgment. (I like her as a person, and think she's suitable for all sorts of jobs, just not a cop.) And when people have asked me to be a reference for cleared jobs, I only agree if I can recommend them honestly, without misgivings.

I think if you have grave misgivings about your I-L's as parents, you are right to not do a reference. And I think your husband could tell them why. Supporting your family sometimes involves harsh truths. If they have a volatile marriage that they're not bothering to hide from others, then they won't be that surprised if you give them that as a reason why kids might not be a great idea, at least not right now.

people here are the worst friends. amazing the sabotage.

And if the poor judgment friend became a gun toting cop with bad judgment and accidentally shot your child, I guess you'd feel differently about it being "sabotage".

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure that OP's inklings rise to the level of what happened to these adoptive kids (maybe, maybe not), but it's a serious matter: http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/02/16/florida.body.bag.twins/index.html?hpt=C2

Just tell the truth about what you've seen. The adoption professionals know how to sort through these issues and make an assessment. No one is perfect and they have experience assessing whether people issues rise to the level that a child shouldn't be placed. The onus isn't on you and you're not responsible.

How would you feel if they get some friend to write a nice recommendation omitting the ILs issues, they adopt, and what you obviously fear (a bad home, at least verbal abuse) comes to pass?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I helped block a friend from the police academy because I just didn't think she was a suitable person to carry a gun and fulfill the duties of a police officer. She's very emotional, immature and doesn't always use good judgment. (I like her as a person, and think she's suitable for all sorts of jobs, just not a cop.) And when people have asked me to be a reference for cleared jobs, I only agree if I can recommend them honestly, without misgivings.

I think if you have grave misgivings about your I-L's as parents, you are right to not do a reference. And I think your husband could tell them why. Supporting your family sometimes involves harsh truths. If they have a volatile marriage that they're not bothering to hide from others, then they won't be that surprised if you give them that as a reason why kids might not be a great idea, at least not right now.

people here are the worst friends. amazing the sabotage.

I guess you also think you should allow your friends to drive drunk. Geez.