Mad Men Rewatch: Joan Halloway

[Anonymous]

Class actually plays a huge part in why the Mad Men marry the women they do or treat women the way they do.

Joan is stunningly beautiful and intelligent but it’s obvious she has a working class background and is not educated. Upper class and upper middle class men admire her looks and have no problem sleeping with her and dating her but are not interested in making her their wife.

The closest she gets is with Roger but he is did not want to leave Mona for her. Later on he asks her to be with him but at that point Joan is not interested.

Betty is upper class and has her pick of upper class men wanting to wife her up. Don selected her as his wife as she elevated his status as an Ad executive. She is beautiful, educated and refined. Later on even her very large pregnancy bump doesn’t detract from Henry Francis eying her and then marrying her. Henry is posh and rich and Betty is just the kind of women he wants to be married to.

Megan is upper middle class with an academic for a father and an artist for a mother. She is well educated, speaks French and has a bohemian and artistic streak. Don marries her because she is sophisticated, beautiful and amazing with his kids. She is not a downgrade from Betty!

[Anonymous]

Bringing personality type into the mix, she is supposed to be an ISTJ. She's trying to make logical choices. she had love affairs along the way but i think she knew better than to try to make that into something serious. It was suppose to make sense that she held out and married a doctor. She didn't bank on him being abusive and nuts. Then from that position she did what she could to make something for herself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like the class commentary. It’s clear Joan is working class even though exceptionally beautiful and intelligent. Roger likes sleeping with her but never seriously offers her marriage or stability. He does marry Jane though, even though she is a secretary and Don marries Megan. Is it implied that Megan and Jane are higher social class?

I don't think you can think about class as this cleanly delineated on Mad Men. It's NY in the 1960s, not the 1860s. Class structures have already been upended a few times. There is the question of being "from money" but then there are also differences between "old money" and new money. You also have multiple self-made characters who are given a lot of respect (including Don).

Megan's family does not seem to have much money, but Megan's dad is an academic and Megan appears to be well educated. She's also bilingual. This wouldn't impress someone like Pete's mother, who is old money and would view Megan as little better than a prostitute given that she had to work for a living before "marrying up." But it does impress Don and people like Ken and Peggy, who are middle class and not well traveled.

Jane strikes me as a classic gold digger, what Joan would be if she weren't so interesting. She's not from a wealthy background and doesn't seem to have a college degree. She's a bad secretary. But she's stunning, and she (and likely her family) were betting that a year or two as a secretary in some kind of NY firm (could have been a bank, a law firm, advertising, whatever) would land her a wealthy husband. She also sets her sights high from the start -- she doesn't mess around with the more junior men in the office. She knows exactly what she's doing but she's not from a wealthy family. She's looking to move up via marriage.

I also rewatched Mad Men recently and for some reason I thought Jane was a recent college grad.

You are correct, pp needs to rewatch.

Not PP and I’ve watched a bunch of times and missed that.

[Anonymous]

Jane is not a winner in this story.

Correct, but she sure tried to make Joan think she was.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Bringing personality type into the mix, she is supposed to be an ISTJ. She's trying to make logical choices. she had love affairs along the way but i think she knew better than to try to make that into something serious. It was suppose to make sense that she held out and married a doctor. She didn't bank on him being abusive and nuts. Then from that position she did what she could to make something for herself.

I’m surprised Joan didn’t figure out that the doctor was a loser…she is good at reading people generally. But then again she does make questionable romantic decisions: Roger and having his baby!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bringing personality type into the mix, she is supposed to be an ISTJ. She's trying to make logical choices. she had love affairs along the way but i think she knew better than to try to make that into something serious. It was suppose to make sense that she held out and married a doctor. She didn't bank on him being abusive and nuts. Then from that position she did what she could to make something for herself.

I’m surprised Joan didn’t figure out that the doctor was a loser…she is good at reading people generally. But then again she does make questionable romantic decisions: Roger and having his baby!

Trudy also seems savvy and clever but is married to the turd that is Pete. It does seem to imply the 60s ideal of domesticity was a false bill of goods. Most of the married women end up miserable

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bringing personality type into the mix, she is supposed to be an ISTJ. She's trying to make logical choices. she had love affairs along the way but i think she knew better than to try to make that into something serious. It was suppose to make sense that she held out and married a doctor. She didn't bank on him being abusive and nuts. Then from that position she did what she could to make something for herself.

I’m surprised Joan didn’t figure out that the doctor was a loser…she is good at reading people generally. But then again she does make questionable romantic decisions: Roger and having his baby!

Trudy also seems savvy and clever but is married to the turd that is Pete. It does seem to imply the 60s ideal of domesticity was a false bill of goods. Most of the married women end up miserable

Indeed! It’s painful to see these beautiful and smart women married to lackluster men and trapped into the limited roles of wife and home maker. There isn’t one positive romantic relationship portrayed on the show. Well I suppose Henry is a good husband to Betty.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Deep down, she clearly wasn’t cut out to be a suburban wife with an important husband. At the end, she is fulfilled by a career, a company she co-owns with Peggy. Yes, she had a baby along the way, and found surprising joy in that—but her son isn’t her happy ending; he’s part of it.

And it turned out catching the “right” man was very, very wrong for her, and harmful to her, and she had more fun with men on her own terms. Which is kind of what her instincts were telling her all along.

At the end Peggy stays at McCann and Joan is running her own commercial production company.

…the company which she and Peggy started together with writing and development, but OK

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bringing personality type into the mix, she is supposed to be an ISTJ. She's trying to make logical choices. she had love affairs along the way but i think she knew better than to try to make that into something serious. It was suppose to make sense that she held out and married a doctor. She didn't bank on him being abusive and nuts. Then from that position she did what she could to make something for herself.

I’m surprised Joan didn’t figure out that the doctor was a loser…she is good at reading people generally. But then again she does make questionable romantic decisions: Roger and having his baby!

Trudy also seems savvy and clever but is married to the turd that is Pete. It does seem to imply the 60s ideal of domesticity was a false bill of goods. Most of the married women end up miserable

Indeed! It’s painful to see these beautiful and smart women married to lackluster men and trapped into the limited roles of wife and home maker. There isn’t one positive romantic relationship portrayed on the show. Well I suppose Henry is a good husband to Betty.

That’s true but the way it starts is SO creepy that I could never get past it. And I’m not as much of a Betty hater as the average viewer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like the class commentary. It’s clear Joan is working class even though exceptionally beautiful and intelligent. Roger likes sleeping with her but never seriously offers her marriage or stability. He does marry Jane though, even though she is a secretary and Don marries Megan. Is it implied that Megan and Jane are higher social class?

I don't think you can think about class as this cleanly delineated on Mad Men. It's NY in the 1960s, not the 1860s. Class structures have already been upended a few times. There is the question of being "from money" but then there are also differences between "old money" and new money. You also have multiple self-made characters who are given a lot of respect (including Don).

Megan's family does not seem to have much money, but Megan's dad is an academic and Megan appears to be well educated. She's also bilingual. This wouldn't impress someone like Pete's mother, who is old money and would view Megan as little better than a prostitute given that she had to work for a living before "marrying up." But it does impress Don and people like Ken and Peggy, who are middle class and not well traveled.

Jane strikes me as a classic gold digger, what Joan would be if she weren't so interesting. She's not from a wealthy background and doesn't seem to have a college degree. She's a bad secretary. But she's stunning, and she (and likely her family) were betting that a year or two as a secretary in some kind of NY firm (could have been a bank, a law firm, advertising, whatever) would land her a wealthy husband. She also sets her sights high from the start -- she doesn't mess around with the more junior men in the office. She knows exactly what she's doing but she's not from a wealthy family. She's looking to move up via marriage.

This.

People are saying Joan is working class but I don't think that's true? We see her mother throughout the series and her mother seems reasonably put together and well spoken. She's not like Peggy's mother, who was definitely a working class Catholic woman of the time.

Yeah, calling Joan working class is a bad take. The show mentions she attended college which in those days was not common among the working class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bringing personality type into the mix, she is supposed to be an ISTJ. She's trying to make logical choices. she had love affairs along the way but i think she knew better than to try to make that into something serious. It was suppose to make sense that she held out and married a doctor. She didn't bank on him being abusive and nuts. Then from that position she did what she could to make something for herself.

I’m surprised Joan didn’t figure out that the doctor was a loser…she is good at reading people generally. But then again she does make questionable romantic decisions: Roger and having his baby!

Trudy also seems savvy and clever but is married to the turd that is Pete. It does seem to imply the 60s ideal of domesticity was a false bill of goods. Most of the married women end up miserable

Indeed! It’s painful to see these beautiful and smart women married to lackluster men and trapped into the limited roles of wife and home maker. There isn’t one positive romantic relationship portrayed on the show. Well I suppose Henry is a good husband to Betty.

Oh, idk if this is true. The two other lower level marriages seem okay. Cos grove and Harry? Plus don’t forget Peggy and whatshisname! I don’t know if they get married of course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Deep down, she clearly wasn’t cut out to be a suburban wife with an important husband. At the end, she is fulfilled by a career, a company she co-owns with Peggy. Yes, she had a baby along the way, and found surprising joy in that—but her son isn’t her happy ending; he’s part of it.

And it turned out catching the “right” man was very, very wrong for her, and harmful to her, and she had more fun with men on her own terms. Which is kind of what her instincts were telling her all along.

At the end Peggy stays at McCann and Joan is running her own commercial production company.

…the company which she and Peggy started together with writing and development, but OK

DP but no, the PP is correct. Peggy doesn't go into business with Joan. Peggy and Joan have both been shipped over to McCann as part of the acquisition, but Joan HATES it and proposes starting her own company with Peggy. Peggy does consider it, and even I think writes copy for one commercial for Joan, but ultimately decides to stay at McCann. Peggy also considers going somewhere else, like to another agency, and works with a headhunter on it. But he winds up advising her to stay at McCann and get the experience and the resume line, before heading elsewhere.

Joan is initially upset that Peggy doesn't come with her, but realizes she can do it on her own and just hire out the creative as needed (lord knows she has the contacts) and she marches on. She also winds up breaking up with her rich, jet-setting boyfriend because he basically tells her it's the company or him, because he doesn't want to be tied down to the demands or schedule of a business. She chooses the business. It's a really fitting end for Joan who started out the series at least theoretically looking for some man to come and sweep her away and give her the life she feels she deserves, and ends with Joan straight up creating that life for herself and her son with her mom (of all people! Joan would never have predicted this) helping out at home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bringing personality type into the mix, she is supposed to be an ISTJ. She's trying to make logical choices. she had love affairs along the way but i think she knew better than to try to make that into something serious. It was suppose to make sense that she held out and married a doctor. She didn't bank on him being abusive and nuts. Then from that position she did what she could to make something for herself.

I’m surprised Joan didn’t figure out that the doctor was a loser…she is good at reading people generally. But then again she does make questionable romantic decisions: Roger and having his baby!

Trudy also seems savvy and clever but is married to the turd that is Pete. It does seem to imply the 60s ideal of domesticity was a false bill of goods. Most of the married women end up miserable

Indeed! It’s painful to see these beautiful and smart women married to lackluster men and trapped into the limited roles of wife and home maker. There isn’t one positive romantic relationship portrayed on the show. Well I suppose Henry is a good husband to Betty.

Oh, idk if this is true. The two other lower level marriages seem okay. Cos grove and Harry? Plus don’t forget Peggy and whatshisname! I don’t know if they get married of course.

Peggy and Stan have barely started dating when the show ends. I would not assume they wind up together in the long run -- Peggy marries her work and they live happily ever after.

Ken's and Harry's wives are barely people on the show. Ken and Harry are also portrayed as initially decent guys who get chewed up by the industry they are in and become jerks. Ken spends several seasons as like the one standup guy on the show, only to get shipped off to Detroit to lose an eye and get hazed by the auto industry bros, give up his literary dreams, and become a vindictive ahole. Harry devolves into a Hollywood cliche who clearly cheats extensively on his wife while on the West coast. Does he wind up divorced? I don't even remember and they might not even say, he's a caricature by the time the show ends.

[Anonymous]

Am I the only one that thought she looked like a fat dolled up 60s/70s hooker? Her entire storyline was cringe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bringing personality type into the mix, she is supposed to be an ISTJ. She's trying to make logical choices. she had love affairs along the way but i think she knew better than to try to make that into something serious. It was suppose to make sense that she held out and married a doctor. She didn't bank on him being abusive and nuts. Then from that position she did what she could to make something for herself.

I’m surprised Joan didn’t figure out that the doctor was a loser…she is good at reading people generally. But then again she does make questionable romantic decisions: Roger and having his baby!

Trudy also seems savvy and clever but is married to the turd that is Pete. It does seem to imply the 60s ideal of domesticity was a false bill of goods. Most of the married women end up miserable

Indeed! It’s painful to see these beautiful and smart women married to lackluster men and trapped into the limited roles of wife and home maker. There isn’t one positive romantic relationship portrayed on the show. Well I suppose Henry is a good husband to Betty.

Pete, Roger, and late bloomer Don were multi-millionaire ad executives. Their “dumb” wives were pampered high status SAHMs. That is the dream life outcome of every woman for millennia… up until women started having their brains fried by subversive feminism within the last 50 years.