Mad Men Rewatch: Joan Halloway

[Anonymous]

Deep down, she clearly wasn’t cut out to be a suburban wife with an important husband. At the end, she is fulfilled by a career, a company she co-owns with Peggy. Yes, she had a baby along the way, and found surprising joy in that—but her son isn’t her happy ending; he’s part of it.

And it turned out catching the “right” man was very, very wrong for her, and harmful to her, and she had more fun with men on her own terms. Which is kind of what her instincts were telling her all along.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like the class commentary. It’s clear Joan is working class even though exceptionally beautiful and intelligent. Roger likes sleeping with her but never seriously offers her marriage or stability. He does marry Jane though, even though she is a secretary and Don marries Megan. Is it implied that Megan and Jane are higher social class?

I don't think you can think about class as this cleanly delineated on Mad Men. It's NY in the 1960s, not the 1860s. Class structures have already been upended a few times. There is the question of being "from money" but then there are also differences between "old money" and new money. You also have multiple self-made characters who are given a lot of respect (including Don).

Megan's family does not seem to have much money, but Megan's dad is an academic and Megan appears to be well educated. She's also bilingual. This wouldn't impress someone like Pete's mother, who is old money and would view Megan as little better than a prostitute given that she had to work for a living before "marrying up." But it does impress Don and people like Ken and Peggy, who are middle class and not well traveled.

Jane strikes me as a classic gold digger, what Joan would be if she weren't so interesting. She's not from a wealthy background and doesn't seem to have a college degree. She's a bad secretary. But she's stunning, and she (and likely her family) were betting that a year or two as a secretary in some kind of NY firm (could have been a bank, a law firm, advertising, whatever) would land her a wealthy husband. She also sets her sights high from the start -- she doesn't mess around with the more junior men in the office. She knows exactly what she's doing but she's not from a wealthy family. She's looking to move up via marriage.

I also rewatched Mad Men recently and for some reason I thought Jane was a recent college grad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like the class commentary. It’s clear Joan is working class even though exceptionally beautiful and intelligent. Roger likes sleeping with her but never seriously offers her marriage or stability. He does marry Jane though, even though she is a secretary and Don marries Megan. Is it implied that Megan and Jane are higher social class?

I don't think you can think about class as this cleanly delineated on Mad Men. It's NY in the 1960s, not the 1860s. Class structures have already been upended a few times. There is the question of being "from money" but then there are also differences between "old money" and new money. You also have multiple self-made characters who are given a lot of respect (including Don).

Megan's family does not seem to have much money, but Megan's dad is an academic and Megan appears to be well educated. She's also bilingual. This wouldn't impress someone like Pete's mother, who is old money and would view Megan as little better than a prostitute given that she had to work for a living before "marrying up." But it does impress Don and people like Ken and Peggy, who are middle class and not well traveled.

Jane strikes me as a classic gold digger, what Joan would be if she weren't so interesting. She's not from a wealthy background and doesn't seem to have a college degree. She's a bad secretary. But she's stunning, and she (and likely her family) were betting that a year or two as a secretary in some kind of NY firm (could have been a bank, a law firm, advertising, whatever) would land her a wealthy husband. She also sets her sights high from the start -- she doesn't mess around with the more junior men in the office. She knows exactly what she's doing but she's not from a wealthy family. She's looking to move up via marriage.

This.

People are saying Joan is working class but I don't think that's true? We see her mother throughout the series and her mother seems reasonably put together and well spoken. She's not like Peggy's mother, who was definitely a working class Catholic woman of the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think part of her wasn't super into being married. Like if she were living in 2026 she'd be single or a serial monogamous. Even if subconsciously, she wasn't putting out marriage vibes.

+1 And later it’s revealed in a conversation with an old friend that she had already been married and divorced before we meet her in the show.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like the class commentary. It’s clear Joan is working class even though exceptionally beautiful and intelligent. Roger likes sleeping with her but never seriously offers her marriage or stability. He does marry Jane though, even though she is a secretary and Don marries Megan. Is it implied that Megan and Jane are higher social class?

I don't think you can think about class as this cleanly delineated on Mad Men. It's NY in the 1960s, not the 1860s. Class structures have already been upended a few times. There is the question of being "from money" but then there are also differences between "old money" and new money. You also have multiple self-made characters who are given a lot of respect (including Don).

Megan's family does not seem to have much money, but Megan's dad is an academic and Megan appears to be well educated. She's also bilingual. This wouldn't impress someone like Pete's mother, who is old money and would view Megan as little better than a prostitute given that she had to work for a living before "marrying up." But it does impress Don and people like Ken and Peggy, who are middle class and not well traveled.

Jane strikes me as a classic gold digger, what Joan would be if she weren't so interesting. She's not from a wealthy background and doesn't seem to have a college degree. She's a bad secretary. But she's stunning, and she (and likely her family) were betting that a year or two as a secretary in some kind of NY firm (could have been a bank, a law firm, advertising, whatever) would land her a wealthy husband. She also sets her sights high from the start -- she doesn't mess around with the more junior men in the office. She knows exactly what she's doing but she's not from a wealthy family. She's looking to move up via marriage.

I also rewatched Mad Men recently and for some reason I thought Jane was a recent college grad.

No, and she also says to Roger she's from a modest background.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Deep down, she clearly wasn’t cut out to be a suburban wife with an important husband. At the end, she is fulfilled by a career, a company she co-owns with Peggy. Yes, she had a baby along the way, and found surprising joy in that—but her son isn’t her happy ending; he’s part of it.

And it turned out catching the “right” man was very, very wrong for her, and harmful to her, and she had more fun with men on her own terms. Which is kind of what her instincts were telling her all along.

At the end Peggy stays at McCann and Joan is running her own commercial production company.

[Anonymous]

People always try to make this about class. I think Joan just didn't care about being married or having kids but she was a woman in the 60s so she couldn't really say that. She liked working. She literally goes back to work after getting married (Pete goes to return his neighbor's dress after his side chick stole it and spilled wine on it and Joan has somehow worked her way up to the womenswear manager of B. Altman in a matter of months)

She has multiple abortions over the course of the series to the point that she has a guy on speed dial who can do it for her and her friends lmfao. She just didn't want to be a wife and mom but had to fit into the confines of her time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at what she became towards the end of the series (spoiler alert!) She is a boss babe who doesn't want to be married. She wants to call the shots.

That is her character arc though. In the first few reasons she clearly aspired to marry rich and failed miserably ending up with a loser rapist who is a failed surgeon.

Joan did end up rich on her own power though. Her share of the agency was worth over 1 million which is more than 8 million today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like the class commentary. It’s clear Joan is working class even though exceptionally beautiful and intelligent. Roger likes sleeping with her but never seriously offers her marriage or stability. He does marry Jane though, even though she is a secretary and Don marries Megan. Is it implied that Megan and Jane are higher social class?

I don't think you can think about class as this cleanly delineated on Mad Men. It's NY in the 1960s, not the 1860s. Class structures have already been upended a few times. There is the question of being "from money" but then there are also differences between "old money" and new money. You also have multiple self-made characters who are given a lot of respect (including Don).

Megan's family does not seem to have much money, but Megan's dad is an academic and Megan appears to be well educated. She's also bilingual. This wouldn't impress someone like Pete's mother, who is old money and would view Megan as little better than a prostitute given that she had to work for a living before "marrying up." But it does impress Don and people like Ken and Peggy, who are middle class and not well traveled.

Jane strikes me as a classic gold digger, what Joan would be if she weren't so interesting. She's not from a wealthy background and doesn't seem to have a college degree. She's a bad secretary. But she's stunning, and she (and likely her family) were betting that a year or two as a secretary in some kind of NY firm (could have been a bank, a law firm, advertising, whatever) would land her a wealthy husband. She also sets her sights high from the start -- she doesn't mess around with the more junior men in the office. She knows exactly what she's doing but she's not from a wealthy family. She's looking to move up via marriage.

I also rewatched Mad Men recently and for some reason I thought Jane was a recent college grad.

You are correct, pp needs to rewatch.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at what she became towards the end of the series (spoiler alert!) She is a boss babe who doesn't want to be married. She wants to call the shots.

That is her character arc though. In the first few reasons she clearly aspired to marry rich and failed miserably ending up with a loser rapist who is a failed surgeon.

Joan did end up rich on her own power though. Her share of the agency was worth over 1 million which is more than 8 million today.

She picky had to...prostitute herself to get it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like the class commentary. It’s clear Joan is working class even though exceptionally beautiful and intelligent. Roger likes sleeping with her but never seriously offers her marriage or stability. He does marry Jane though, even though she is a secretary and Don marries Megan. Is it implied that Megan and Jane are higher social class?

I don't think you can think about class as this cleanly delineated on Mad Men. It's NY in the 1960s, not the 1860s. Class structures have already been upended a few times. There is the question of being "from money" but then there are also differences between "old money" and new money. You also have multiple self-made characters who are given a lot of respect (including Don).

Megan's family does not seem to have much money, but Megan's dad is an academic and Megan appears to be well educated. She's also bilingual. This wouldn't impress someone like Pete's mother, who is old money and would view Megan as little better than a prostitute given that she had to work for a living before "marrying up." But it does impress Don and people like Ken and Peggy, who are middle class and not well traveled.

Jane strikes me as a classic gold digger, what Joan would be if she weren't so interesting. She's not from a wealthy background and doesn't seem to have a college degree. She's a bad secretary. But she's stunning, and she (and likely her family) were betting that a year or two as a secretary in some kind of NY firm (could have been a bank, a law firm, advertising, whatever) would land her a wealthy husband. She also sets her sights high from the start -- she doesn't mess around with the more junior men in the office. She knows exactly what she's doing but she's not from a wealthy family. She's looking to move up via marriage.

I also rewatched Mad Men recently and for some reason I thought Jane was a recent college grad.

No, and she also says to Roger she's from a modest background.

Hmm are you sure? Mad Men wiki says Jane is a college grad

[Anonymous]

Jane is wealthier/better educated than Joan but more importantly, she marries Roger who is old and silly. She doesn't get to have a family or a house in the burbs. She is pretty quickly miserable and on LSD, iirc. Joan didn't want to marry a silly old man, she wanted to marry a young man who was on his way and build a family/life together. Jane is not a winner in this story.

I think Megan is also better educated than Joan was but also, she's not apparently trying to snag a husband or start a family. Theoretically, she's trying to live her acting dreams. Marrying Don is sort of a left field move for her that doesn't work out anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at what she became towards the end of the series (spoiler alert!) She is a boss babe who doesn't want to be married. She wants to call the shots.

That is her character arc though. In the first few reasons she clearly aspired to marry rich and failed miserably ending up with a loser rapist who is a failed surgeon.

Joan did end up rich on her own power though. Her share of the agency was worth over 1 million which is more than 8 million today.

She picky had to...prostitute herself to get it

True but she build the production company on her own. She called it Holloway Harris. Her maiden and married names. She said you need two names to make it sound real.

[Anonymous]

Her background wasn't going to allow her to marry the men she wanted and actually deserved. So she didn't settle (until she did ... with that ridiculous med student).

[Anonymous]

She didn't come from a poor background. She'd been to college (she was living with her college roommate).