Do churches generate a lot of revenue from the LGBT community?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is driven almost entirely by mainline Protestant churches — not evangelical or RCC churches.

My view is that this is primarily a cynical attempt by these churches to try to increase membership — look at us, we are gay friendly, you should join our church. As you said, they aren’t putting flags or special advertisements for any other group of people.

And yet what has happened? These churches continue to bleed members and are a shell of their former selves. They are only going to continue to decrease in members, and eventually those old buildings will close too because they are expensive to maintain. Moreover, if you go to most mainline Protestants, you hear VERY little about Jesus, the cross, justification by faith, etc. You do hear a lot of progressive politics, etc.

The bolded is not in line with my experience at all, as Presbyterian USA.
But more relevantly, there are dozens of different Protestant denominations with different beliefs, e.g., denominations that as a matter of doctrine are not overly concerned with the cross. These differences have deep historical and theological roots. You're entitled to think their beliefs are incorrect, but to suggest they arise from a desire to attract membership in the 21st century is pretty ignorant.

[Anonymous]

Not really, no. But in this area it's virtue signaling. The religious liberals want to make sure they go to the right church.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is driven almost entirely by mainline Protestant churches — not evangelical or RCC churches.

My view is that this is primarily a cynical attempt by these churches to try to increase membership — look at us, we are gay friendly, you should join our church. As you said, they aren’t putting flags or special advertisements for any other group of people.

And yet what has happened? These churches continue to bleed members and are a shell of their former selves. They are only going to continue to decrease in members, and eventually those old buildings will close too because they are expensive to maintain. Moreover, if you go to most mainline Protestants, you hear VERY little about Jesus, the cross, justification by faith, etc. You do hear a lot of progressive politics, etc.

But this hardly means Christianity is dead. I go to a mega church in a comfortable modern building where 3,000-4,000 people attend every Sunday. We are apolitical. But we strongly preach the true Gospel — that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, died for our sins, and that we are saved solely through our faith in him.

The reality is that true Christianity has a certain perspective on LGBT relationships. It doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t treat people with love and respect regardless of this issue. My own church will not perform same-sex weddings but says that it is a matter of conscience whether you attend one outside of our church, and they have a “pro” and “con” argument on the website. I personally have no issue attending a same-sex marriage ceremony myself. I’m comfortable with that compromise.

But there is no doubt that when many mainline Protestant churches started to lose members, one key response was to reverse course on what had beeen church doctrine for thousands of years. I don’t think they did this for strong theological reasons because the theological justifications are flimsy when you read the New Testament and understand what marriage is in the Christian context.

Many serious Christians have left these pews as a result and now attend church elsewhere, like mine, where the churches are thriving. People want a church that has real theology and something they can believe in — not just progressive politics that they can get anywhere else.

Mainline Protestants can make up their own minds as to whether this was a wise strategy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is driven almost entirely by mainline Protestant churches — not evangelical or RCC churches.

My view is that this is primarily a cynical attempt by these churches to try to increase membership — look at us, we are gay friendly, you should join our church. As you said, they aren’t putting flags or special advertisements for any other group of people.

And yet what has happened? These churches continue to bleed members and are a shell of their former selves. They are only going to continue to decrease in members, and eventually those old buildings will close too because they are expensive to maintain. Moreover, if you go to most mainline Protestants, you hear VERY little about Jesus, the cross, justification by faith, etc. You do hear a lot of progressive politics, etc.

But this hardly means Christianity is dead. I go to a mega church in a comfortable modern building where 3,000-4,000 people attend every Sunday. We are apolitical. But we strongly preach the true Gospel — that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, died for our sins, and that we are saved solely through our faith in him.

The reality is that true Christianity has a certain perspective on LGBT relationships. It doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t treat people with love and respect regardless of this issue. My own church will not perform same-sex weddings but says that it is a matter of conscience whether you attend one outside of our church, and they have a “pro” and “con” argument on the website. I personally have no issue attending a same-sex marriage ceremony myself. I’m comfortable with that compromise.

But there is no doubt that when many mainline Protestant churches started to lose members, one key response was to reverse course on what had beeen church doctrine for thousands of years. I don’t think they did this for strong theological reasons because the theological justifications are flimsy when you read the New Testament and understand what marriage is in the Christian context.

Many serious Christians have left these pews as a result and now attend church elsewhere, like mine, where the churches are thriving. People want a church that has real theology and something they can believe in — not just progressive politics that they can get anywhere else.

Mainline Protestants can make up their own minds as to whether this was a wise strategy.

Disagree. People want a church where they can feel superior. Don't you feel superior to those stupid liberal protestants? and the stupid Roman Catholics?

Meanwhile, the Catholics and liberal protestants feel superior to you. Athiests feel superior without any religious affiliation at all - and they hate to think that Donald Trump might be an atheist. They think of atheists as good people, like them, and don't think of Trump as a good person. But the evangelicals love him! Which is why he pretends to be religious. It's his malignant narcissism at work.

[Anonymous]

I have been a member of only such churches as an adult, and...it's not that cynical! It's not marketing or virtue signaling! It's typically the result of gay members of the congregation advocating for their church to perform same sex marriages and publicly welcome people. One of the reasons this seems common in Episcopal churches is that they are a familiar environment for Catholics who left the Catholic Church due to not being accepted there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is driven almost entirely by mainline Protestant churches — not evangelical or RCC churches.

My view is that this is primarily a cynical attempt by these churches to try to increase membership — look at us, we are gay friendly, you should join our church. As you said, they aren’t putting flags or special advertisements for any other group of people.

And yet what has happened? These churches continue to bleed members and are a shell of their former selves. They are only going to continue to decrease in members, and eventually those old buildings will close too because they are expensive to maintain. Moreover, if you go to most mainline Protestants, you hear VERY little about Jesus, the cross, justification by faith, etc. You do hear a lot of progressive politics, etc.

But this hardly means Christianity is dead. I go to a mega church in a comfortable modern building where 3,000-4,000 people attend every Sunday. We are apolitical. But we strongly preach the true Gospel — that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, died for our sins, and that we are saved solely through our faith in him.

The reality is that true Christianity has a certain perspective on LGBT relationships. It doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t treat people with love and respect regardless of this issue. My own church will not perform same-sex weddings but says that it is a matter of conscience whether you attend one outside of our church, and they have a “pro” and “con” argument on the website. I personally have no issue attending a same-sex marriage ceremony myself. I’m comfortable with that compromise.

But there is no doubt that when many mainline Protestant churches started to lose members, one key response was to reverse course on what had beeen church doctrine for thousands of years. I don’t think they did this for strong theological reasons because the theological justifications are flimsy when you read the New Testament and understand what marriage is in the Christian context.

Many serious Christians have left these pews as a result and now attend church elsewhere, like mine, where the churches are thriving. People want a church that has real theology and something they can believe in — not just progressive politics that they can get anywhere else.

Mainline Protestants can make up their own minds as to whether this was a wise strategy.

Disagree. People want a church where they can feel superior. Don't you feel superior to those stupid liberal protestants? and the stupid Roman Catholics?

Meanwhile, the Catholics and liberal protestants feel superior to you. Athiests feel superior without any religious affiliation at all - and they hate to think that Donald Trump might be an atheist. They think of atheists as good people, like them, and don't think of Trump as a good person. But the evangelicals love him! Which is why he pretends to be religious. It's his malignant narcissism at work.

I actually feel superior to nobody. I am a sinner saved purely by grace. When you truly believe that, then you cannot feel superior to anyone else. Liberal Protestants, RCC, atheists, me — everyone is flawed. In fact, there is very little difference between a priest and a prostitute — the seeds were just watered a little differently in the latter case.

Because I am a sinner saved not by what I have done, but through what Jesus has done, I have no need to feel superior to anyone. I do have a heart of gratitude for the one who gladly died for my sins and through whom I am now reconciled to God.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is driven almost entirely by mainline Protestant churches — not evangelical or RCC churches.

My view is that this is primarily a cynical attempt by these churches to try to increase membership — look at us, we are gay friendly, you should join our church. As you said, they aren’t putting flags or special advertisements for any other group of people.

And yet what has happened? These churches continue to bleed members and are a shell of their former selves. They are only going to continue to decrease in members, and eventually those old buildings will close too because they are expensive to maintain. Moreover, if you go to most mainline Protestants, you hear VERY little about Jesus, the cross, justification by faith, etc. You do hear a lot of progressive politics, etc.

The bolded is not in line with my experience at all, as Presbyterian USA.
But more relevantly, there are dozens of different Protestant denominations with different beliefs, e.g., denominations that as a matter of doctrine are not overly concerned with the cross. These differences have deep historical and theological roots. You're entitled to think their beliefs are incorrect, but to suggest they arise from a desire to attract membership in the 21st century is pretty ignorant.

I was the original person who replied. My best friend growing up belonged to a PCUSA church and I frequently tagged along with his family to various church things. My first wife also went to a PCUSA church and I occasionally went with her. Maybe it was just purely me. But I remember little very discussion of Jesus and no discussion of the cross, or substitutionary atonement. In my early 40s, I came across Tim Keller for the first time. Despite seeming like I knew a lot about Christianity, I felt like I was hearing about a new religion for the first time after finding Keller’s sermons and then reading his books. What Christianity actually meant, why it was profoundly deeper than “just do good stuff and maybe get to heaven,” Jesus becoming beautiful to me, developing a personal relationship with Jesus, seeing the Gospel actually change the worst habits in my life up until that point — it was nothing like the religion I grew up with or was around as a young adult. Again, maybe it was just me, but it’s my experience in talking to other mainline Protestants, that they do not, by and large, have a faith that truly changes them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:First off, I am an atheist. Admittedly, I have a cynical view of religion. Also, my vantage point is Bethesda.

I can't help but notice that pretty much every church I see has a flag, placard, or message out front targeting a single demographic: the LGBT community. Not asians, not hispanics, not men, not women, not young, not old - LGBT.

Churches exist for one reason: to propagate themselves. That requires money and customers. So, it must be that singularly advertising to LGBT is a smart business move. Its just a surprising one, given the % of population and, I would think, I general dis-inclination toward religion.

So what is the deal? Smart business move? Meaningless signaling? Something else?

I'm sorry, did you fail to notice that Christianity has been deeply bigoted against homosexuality for centuries? And that hatred for homosexuality and transgender identity is widely promoted on society? And that homosexuality and transgender identity is a major trigger of parental abuse of children? So homosexual and transgender people are marginalized in society and expect to be hated and sometimes murdered for daring to exist in places they aren't explicitly invited to?

[Anonymous]

The vast majority of atheists think OP is an absolute moron.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is driven almost entirely by mainline Protestant churches — not evangelical or RCC churches.

My view is that this is primarily a cynical attempt by these churches to try to increase membership — look at us, we are gay friendly, you should join our church. As you said, they aren’t putting flags or special advertisements for any other group of people.

And yet what has happened? These churches continue to bleed members and are a shell of their former selves. They are only going to continue to decrease in members, and eventually those old buildings will close too because they are expensive to maintain. Moreover, if you go to most mainline Protestants, you hear VERY little about Jesus, the cross, justification by faith, etc. You do hear a lot of progressive politics, etc.

The bolded is not in line with my experience at all, as Presbyterian USA.
But more relevantly, there are dozens of different Protestant denominations with different beliefs, e.g., denominations that as a matter of doctrine are not overly concerned with the cross. These differences have deep historical and theological roots. You're entitled to think their beliefs are incorrect, but to suggest they arise from a desire to attract membership in the 21st century is pretty ignorant.

I was the original person who replied. My best friend growing up belonged to a PCUSA church and I frequently tagged along with his family to various church things. My first wife also went to a PCUSA church and I occasionally went with her. Maybe it was just purely me. But I remember little very discussion of Jesus and no discussion of the cross, or substitutionary atonement. In my early 40s, I came across Tim Keller for the first time. Despite seeming like I knew a lot about Christianity, I felt like I was hearing about a new religion for the first time after finding Keller’s sermons and then reading his books. What Christianity actually meant, why it was profoundly deeper than “just do good stuff and maybe get to heaven,” Jesus becoming beautiful to me, developing a personal relationship with Jesus, seeing the Gospel actually change the worst habits in my life up until that point — it was nothing like the religion I grew up with or was around as a young adult. Again, maybe it was just me, but it’s my experience in talking to other mainline Protestants, that they do not, by and large, have a faith that truly changes them.

If you grow up with something then of course it doesn't feel like it changes you: it's your normal. That's why adult converts (to anything) are so much more zealous and often more vocal as compared to people who believe and do the exact same things but have from childhood.

Like most Protestant denominations, PCUSA congregations are each slightly different. The ministers have their choice of topics to preach. It sounds like the ones you encountered were uninspiring to you or perhaps really didn't base their sermons in the Bible (not my experience but I'm sure it happens).
But it's a big leap to imply, as you repeatedly have, that because it didn't move you, these people don't have a deeply held faith. And it's unfortunate you can't imagine that congregations would be LGBT-welcoming as a sincere expression of religious values and Biblical teachings, even if you differ with them.

[Anonymous]

Doubt it. It’s a small community

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is driven almost entirely by mainline Protestant churches — not evangelical or RCC churches.

My view is that this is primarily a cynical attempt by these churches to try to increase membership — look at us, we are gay friendly, you should join our church. As you said, they aren’t putting flags or special advertisements for any other group of people.

And yet what has happened? These churches continue to bleed members and are a shell of their former selves. They are only going to continue to decrease in members, and eventually those old buildings will close too because they are expensive to maintain. Moreover, if you go to most mainline Protestants, you hear VERY little about Jesus, the cross, justification by faith, etc. You do hear a lot of progressive politics, etc.

The bolded is not in line with my experience at all, as Presbyterian USA.
But more relevantly, there are dozens of different Protestant denominations with different beliefs, e.g., denominations that as a matter of doctrine are not overly concerned with the cross. These differences have deep historical and theological roots. You're entitled to think their beliefs are incorrect, but to suggest they arise from a desire to attract membership in the 21st century is pretty ignorant.

I was the original person who replied. My best friend growing up belonged to a PCUSA church and I frequently tagged along with his family to various church things. My first wife also went to a PCUSA church and I occasionally went with her. Maybe it was just purely me. But I remember little very discussion of Jesus and no discussion of the cross, or substitutionary atonement. In my early 40s, I came across Tim Keller for the first time. Despite seeming like I knew a lot about Christianity, I felt like I was hearing about a new religion for the first time after finding Keller’s sermons and then reading his books. What Christianity actually meant, why it was profoundly deeper than “just do good stuff and maybe get to heaven,” Jesus becoming beautiful to me, developing a personal relationship with Jesus, seeing the Gospel actually change the worst habits in my life up until that point — it was nothing like the religion I grew up with or was around as a young adult. Again, maybe it was just me, but it’s my experience in talking to other mainline Protestants, that they do not, by and large, have a faith that truly changes them.

If you grow up with something then of course it doesn't feel like it changes you: it's your normal. That's why adult converts (to anything) are so much more zealous and often more vocal as compared to people who believe and do the exact same things but have from childhood.

Like most Protestant denominations, PCUSA congregations are each slightly different. The ministers have their choice of topics to preach. It sounds like the ones you encountered were uninspiring to you or perhaps really didn't base their sermons in the Bible (not my experience but I'm sure it happens).
But it's a big leap to imply, as you repeatedly have, that because it didn't move you, these people don't have a deeply held faith. And it's unfortunate you can't imagine that congregations would be LGBT-welcoming as a sincere expression of religious values and Biblical teachings, even if you differ with them.

For the record — I believe that all Christians should express agape love to everyone, regardless of these theological differences. That is where Christianity has fallen short. A major problem in society writ large now is that we do not have respect and kindness towards those whom we may disagree with. The very definition of tolerance is that we should be able to love someone who is different from yourself — but especially right now, society has become so tribal that to love someone who is not part of your “tribe” is thought to be a betrayal. Christians SHOULD be different because this is explicitly how Jesus told us to live, but, often are not. It’s partly why I had no interest in religion for a long time.

This whole thread started by someone who is not religious asking a very good question — why do all these churches have rainbow flags outside them when they don’t have have flags about any other group? It’s a fair question. I do believe that some of this is virtue signaling and being done because it is thought that being seen as “gay-friendly” will get certain people to come to church — yet these are the same churches that are bleeding members right now because so many of their church services are about progressive politics, not Jesus, the cross, and the gospel.

That all being said — I *do* imagine that there are some churches that do believe this as a sincerely held religious belief and I never meant to say or imply otherwise. I don’t agree with it though as a matter of theology and it’s very hard to make the case if you truly believe that the Bible is supernatural and the word of God. I am not talking about people who don’t believe that — just Christians who supposedly do believe that. And if you are a Christian and don’t believe that, then I don’t really know how you consider yourself a Christian. There are certain beliefs that are core to Christianity and this is one of them.

I should also add — my theological views on this issue are not necessarily the same as my view on civil law. We don’t criminalize adultery, idolatry, greed, and all kinds of other things that are not consistent with the Bible. So I can certainly see the argument that we shouldn’t treat gay marriage differently from a civil law perspective in a democracy.

I’ve talked about Tim Keller in this thread. The most moving tribute to Tim after he passed away was from a gay, Jewish, atheist he befriended. There’s a lesson for all Christians to learn from this article. It is possible to have a principled theological difference with someone but still treat that person in the same way that Jesus commands us to treat people.

https://religionnews.com/2023/05/22/amid-post-trump-evangelicalism-tim-keller-revived-my-faith-in-the-power-of-faith/

[Anonymous]

No, it's not a fair question because no mainstream Christian church forbids sacraments based on race, or forbids sacraments to adults based on age, or forbids attendance at services (vs. ordination) based on sex. So there is no need for a flag out front letting these groups know they are welcome to come in.

But many mainstream churches are actively hostile to LGBT people, to the point that you can assume a church is unwelcoming unless they say they do welcome LGBT people. That's the reason for flags.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:First off, I am an atheist. Admittedly, I have a cynical view of religion. Also, my vantage point is Bethesda.

I can't help but notice that pretty much every church I see has a flag, placard, or message out front targeting a single demographic: the LGBT community. Not asians, not hispanics, not men, not women, not young, not old - LGBT.

Churches exist for one reason: to propagate themselves. That requires money and customers. So, it must be that singularly advertising to LGBT is a smart business move. Its just a surprising one, given the % of population and, I would think, I general dis-inclination toward religion.

So what is the deal? Smart business move? Meaningless signaling? Something else?

Those aren't real churches

Folks, here is the poster who thinks that Protestant denominations that have been mainstays of religious life in the US since the nation’s founding aren’t “real churches.”

Draw your own conclusions.

Objectively, it isn’t that.
It’s that there is literally a “guidebook” that identifies what God considers sinful behavior. It’s called the Bible. And engaging in homosexual acts is specifically called out as a sin in the word of God—several times. So are many many other sins. And each of us sin on a daily basis. Yet we are all welcome and in fact called by by God to worship Him and to confess our sin, repent of that sin (whatever it may be), and accept that on the cross, Christ took the punishment for OUR sins…all of them…paying the price for us and allowing us to live forever with God in heaven.
One would think that the churches that put out the LGBTQ+ flag are signaling “yes—you are welcome here, too. ALL are welcome to come and worship the Lord and repent of whatever sin is keeping hold of you. Jesus is the answer to setting you free from whatever sin is defining you, including sexual sin and sins of lust or idolatry, regardless of orientation.”
But instead, the message from these churches that put out the LGBT flag seems to be “we promise we will value your self-identification as part of the LGBT community above any Biblical teaching. If you come to this church, we will affirm your desire to keep this area of your life off limits to God and you can hang onto this particular sin because you really really like it and society has decided it’s who you are.”

These are “real” churches, but they have been ideologically captured at the seminary level by folks who are more interested in pleasing society than obeying and submitting to God.

The church also welcomes those who are divorced or having premarital sex or who eat shellfish or who tell lies or who have dishonored their parents, etc. The difference is that they do not celebrate those sins as being who you are. Instead they recognize that we are all sinners worthy of love from God and are invited and called to repent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You can be cynical and think it’s about money, but it’s actually a message explicitly welcoming a group that other religious sects repudiate.

+1