Do churches generate a lot of revenue from the LGBT community?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a gay man I have noticed this and I do find it weird. Another gay friend of mine commented that it's as if the churches have a new saint, this time Saint LGBTQ. Will say Saint BLM has faded away except at the most hard-core.

I do find it partly weird because I also know the Bible and the history of Christian theology so there's some pretty audacious cherry picking going on. Then again, theology is always evolving and cherry picking. But as someone who grew up in a non ideological mainline Presbyterian congregation and somewhat interested in joining a church, I do check out the church staff pages and if there's a queer non binary director of youth education (they always have the pronouns and refer to "they") I pretty much write the church off as a place that blends creative approaches to Christianity with progressive politics, aka not non ideological or political.

Mainline church memberships have been collapsing for a while. It seems like the options are either very conservative or very progressive and political and little in between.

Interesting take.
We left a Lutheran church and went to another church (that was also affirming) simply for this very reason. The youth pastor they hired was seemingly much more interested in spreading the “gospel of LGBT+” to our DC than teaching foundational scripture and it became glaringly obvious that this person was there to push an activist agenda rather than to worship God and to lead students in their understanding of the Bible and their walk with Christ. It was a tough call since we consider ourselves to be pretty liberal politically, but the focus with youth was so specifically and heavily on this one issue that it took center stage and started to feel like he was running a school LGBT+ club.

We are going to church to worship the risen Lord and to help our children build a foundation of faith in Christ, and we agree that He loves us all and that no one is shut out from His invitation to walk with Him and accept salvation through Him. But the message we were getting from this youth pastor was that you can prove you are a “good person” by performative worship of LGBT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is driven almost entirely by mainline Protestant churches — not evangelical or RCC churches.

My view is that this is primarily a cynical attempt by these churches to try to increase membership — look at us, we are gay friendly, you should join our church. As you said, they aren’t putting flags or special advertisements for any other group of people.

And yet what has happened? These churches continue to bleed members and are a shell of their former selves. They are only going to continue to decrease in members, and eventually those old buildings will close too because they are expensive to maintain. Moreover, if you go to most mainline Protestants, you hear VERY little about Jesus, the cross, justification by faith, etc. You do hear a lot of progressive politics, etc.

The bolded is not in line with my experience at all, as Presbyterian USA.
But more relevantly, there are dozens of different Protestant denominations with different beliefs, e.g., denominations that as a matter of doctrine are not overly concerned with the cross. These differences have deep historical and theological roots. You're entitled to think their beliefs are incorrect, but to suggest they arise from a desire to attract membership in the 21st century is pretty ignorant.

It's not in line with my experience as an ELCA Lutheran congregation either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No, it's not a fair question because no mainstream Christian church forbids sacraments based on race, or forbids sacraments to adults based on age, or forbids attendance at services (vs. ordination) based on sex. So there is no need for a flag out front letting these groups know they are welcome to come in.

But many mainstream churches are actively hostile to LGBT people, to the point that you can assume a church is unwelcoming unless they say they do welcome LGBT people. That's the reason for flags.

Objectively, this is because what used to be universally recognized by the church and its members as a sinful desire and behavior (LGB) is now celebrated by the same church as immutable characteristic. (Except for the fact that TQ+ falls into that same family of categories now and is fluid and easily changeable, which complicates the “born this way” rhetoric that shifted acceptance on the desire/behavior stance in the early 2000s.)
LGBTQ has become its own untouchable god. And the members of the community have successfully redefined a desire and behavior as an identity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You can be cynical and think it’s about money, but it’s actually a message explicitly welcoming a group that other religious sects repudiate.

I disagree with both of these.
It’s mostly a signal to those who value their liberal political ideology above their spiritual edification so that they know this church is mark “safe” from any discussion that calls anyone to repent from this particular sin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can be cynical and think it’s about money, but it’s actually a message explicitly welcoming a group that other religious sects repudiate.

I disagree with both of these.
It’s mostly a signal to those who value their liberal political ideology above their spiritual edification so that they know this church is mark “safe” from any discussion that calls anyone to repent from this particular sin.

Please consider that there are various ways to express what you call "spiritual edification". Your way might not be the only way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can be cynical and think it’s about money, but it’s actually a message explicitly welcoming a group that other religious sects repudiate.

I disagree with both of these.
It’s mostly a signal to those who value their liberal political ideology above their spiritual edification so that they know this church is mark “safe” from any discussion that calls anyone to repent from this particular sin.

What makes this sin worse than other sins? We are all sinners. Why should this one be called out as such?

Moreover, a gay person who abstains from sex is not committing any sins.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can be cynical and think it’s about money, but it’s actually a message explicitly welcoming a group that other religious sects repudiate.

I disagree with both of these.
It’s mostly a signal to those who value their liberal political ideology above their spiritual edification so that they know this church is mark “safe” from any discussion that calls anyone to repent from this particular sin.

What makes this sin worse than other sins? We are all sinners. Why should this one be called out as such?

Moreover, a gay person who abstains from sex is not committing any sins.

I think some Christian denominations consider just being homosexual a sin, even if you aren't practicing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can be cynical and think it’s about money, but it’s actually a message explicitly welcoming a group that other religious sects repudiate.

I disagree with both of these.
It’s mostly a signal to those who value their liberal political ideology above their spiritual edification so that they know this church is mark “safe” from any discussion that calls anyone to repent from this particular sin.

What makes this sin worse than other sins? We are all sinners. Why should this one be called out as such?

Moreover, a gay person who abstains from sex is not committing any sins.

Neither is a straight person as long as they're married.

[Anonymous]

Everyone is born in original sin. It doesn't matter what you in life as far as "being a sinner" is concerned.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a gay man I have noticed this and I do find it weird. Another gay friend of mine commented that it's as if the churches have a new saint, this time Saint LGBTQ. Will say Saint BLM has faded away except at the most hard-core.

I do find it partly weird because I also know the Bible and the history of Christian theology so there's some pretty audacious cherry picking going on. Then again, theology is always evolving and cherry picking. But as someone who grew up in a non ideological mainline Presbyterian congregation and somewhat interested in joining a church, I do check out the church staff pages and if there's a queer non binary director of youth education (they always have the pronouns and refer to "they") I pretty much write the church off as a place that blends creative approaches to Christianity with progressive politics, aka not non ideological or political.

Mainline church memberships have been collapsing for a while. It seems like the options are either very conservative or very progressive and political and little in between.

Interesting take.
We left a Lutheran church and went to another church (that was also affirming) simply for this very reason. The youth pastor they hired was seemingly much more interested in spreading the “gospel of LGBT+” to our DC than teaching foundational scripture and it became glaringly obvious that this person was there to push an activist agenda rather than to worship God and to lead students in their understanding of the Bible and their walk with Christ. It was a tough call since we consider ourselves to be pretty liberal politically, but the focus with youth was so specifically and heavily on this one issue that it took center stage and started to feel like he was running a school LGBT+ club.

We are going to church to worship the risen Lord and to help our children build a foundation of faith in Christ, and we agree that He loves us all and that no one is shut out from His invitation to walk with Him and accept salvation through Him. But the message we were getting from this youth pastor was that you can prove you are a “good person” by performative worship of LGBT.

Gag me. You are no liberal

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Everyone is born in original sin. It doesn't matter what you in life as far as "being a sinner" is concerned.

No, no one is born in original sin. Its another made up concept.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:First off, I am an atheist. Admittedly, I have a cynical view of religion. Also, my vantage point is Bethesda.

I can't help but notice that pretty much every church I see has a flag, placard, or message out front targeting a single demographic: the LGBT community. Not asians, not hispanics, not men, not women, not young, not old - LGBT.

Churches exist for one reason: to propagate themselves. That requires money and customers. So, it must be that singularly advertising to LGBT is a smart business move. Its just a surprising one, given the % of population and, I would think, I general dis-inclination toward religion.

So what is the deal? Smart business move? Meaningless signaling? Something else?


What a strange assumption!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is driven almost entirely by mainline Protestant churches — not evangelical or RCC churches.

My view is that this is primarily a cynical attempt by these churches to try to increase membership — look at us, we are gay friendly, you should join our church. As you said, they aren’t putting flags or special advertisements for any other group of people.

And yet what has happened? These churches continue to bleed members and are a shell of their former selves. They are only going to continue to decrease in members, and eventually those old buildings will close too because they are expensive to maintain. Moreover, if you go to most mainline Protestants, you hear VERY little about Jesus, the cross, justification by faith, etc. You do hear a lot of progressive politics, etc.

But this hardly means Christianity is dead. I go to a mega church in a comfortable modern building where 3,000-4,000 people attend every Sunday. We are apolitical. But we strongly preach the true Gospel — that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, died for our sins, and that we are saved solely through our faith in him.

The reality is that true Christianity has a certain perspective on LGBT relationships. It doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t treat people with love and respect regardless of this issue. My own church will not perform same-sex weddings but says that it is a matter of conscience whether you attend one outside of our church, and they have a “pro” and “con” argument on the website. I personally have no issue attending a same-sex marriage ceremony myself. I’m comfortable with that compromise.

But there is no doubt that when many mainline Protestant churches started to lose members, one key response was to reverse course on what had beeen church doctrine for thousands of years. I don’t think they did this for strong theological reasons because the theological justifications are flimsy when you read the New Testament and understand what marriage is in the Christian context.

Many serious Christians have left these pews as a result and now attend church elsewhere, like mine, where the churches are thriving. People want a church that has real theology and something they can believe in — not just progressive politics that they can get anywhere else.

Mainline Protestants can make up their own minds as to whether this was a wise strategy.

Disagree. People want a church where they can feel superior. Don't you feel superior to those stupid liberal protestants? and the stupid Roman Catholics?

Meanwhile, the Catholics and liberal protestants feel superior to you. Athiests feel superior without any religious affiliation at all - and they hate to think that Donald Trump might be an atheist. They think of atheists as good people, like them, and don't think of Trump as a good person. But the evangelicals love him! Which is why he pretends to be religious. It's his malignant narcissism at work.

I actually feel superior to nobody. I am a sinner saved purely by grace. When you truly believe that, then you cannot feel superior to anyone else. Liberal Protestants, RCC, atheists, me — everyone is flawed. In fact, there is very little difference between a priest and a prostitute — the seeds were just watered a little differently in the latter case.

Because I am a sinner saved not by what I have done, but through what Jesus has done, I have no need to feel superior to anyone. I do have a heart of gratitude for the one who gladly died for my sins and through whom I am now reconciled to God.

What exactly did he save you from? And how did that accomplish that?

[Anonymous]

Has anyone here looked into "1946-The Movie"?
Oh, and by the way, there is a lot of evidence that King James was gay. Ironic huh?


-Mom of a gay daughter who doesn't believe she is "sinning" or going to hell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a gay man I have noticed this and I do find it weird. Another gay friend of mine commented that it's as if the churches have a new saint, this time Saint LGBTQ. Will say Saint BLM has faded away except at the most hard-core.

I do find it partly weird because I also know the Bible and the history of Christian theology so there's some pretty audacious cherry picking going on. Then again, theology is always evolving and cherry picking. But as someone who grew up in a non ideological mainline Presbyterian congregation and somewhat interested in joining a church, I do check out the church staff pages and if there's a queer non binary director of youth education (they always have the pronouns and refer to "they") I pretty much write the church off as a place that blends creative approaches to Christianity with progressive politics, aka not non ideological or political.

Mainline church memberships have been collapsing for a while. It seems like the options are either very conservative or very progressive and political and little in between.

Interesting take.
We left a Lutheran church and went to another church (that was also affirming) simply for this very reason. The youth pastor they hired was seemingly much more interested in spreading the “gospel of LGBT+” to our DC than teaching foundational scripture and it became glaringly obvious that this person was there to push an activist agenda rather than to worship God and to lead students in their understanding of the Bible and their walk with Christ. It was a tough call since we consider ourselves to be pretty liberal politically, but the focus with youth was so specifically and heavily on this one issue that it took center stage and started to feel like he was running a school LGBT+ club.

We are going to church to worship the risen Lord and to help our children build a foundation of faith in Christ, and we agree that He loves us all and that no one is shut out from His invitation to walk with Him and accept salvation through Him. But the message we were getting from this youth pastor was that you can prove you are a “good person” by performative worship of LGBT.

Gag me. You are no liberal

Well, this poster says the quiet part out loud.

Responses like this are the exact reason why religious people have moved further and further to the right. For many liberals, having true faith in Jesus like the PP expressed is incompatible with being a liberal. It doesn’t pass the liberal litmus test.

For people who are followers of Jesus — it is not just a hobby. It is an identity. It is the defining feature of your entire existence. And you have liberals telling you that you are garbage because of it. How is that tolerant or a big tent?

Growing up, my grandparents were very religious but also FDR Democrats who never voted for a Republican. I have often wondered how they would vote now if they were still alive when large swaths of their political party mock the central organizing principle of their lives — their faith.