Do churches generate a lot of revenue from the LGBT community?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve always assumed it’s because most LGBT people reasonably assume churches are homophobic until proven otherwise. A rainbow flag communicates immediately that this group seriously marginalized by many Christians is welcome and will be affirmed.

+1 it's also a message to people who are not LGBTQ+ that the church is welcoming to all. There are a lot of straight people who don't want to be part of a church that shuns any group of people.

My Methodist church went through a process with the congregation to formally becoming a "reconciling congregation", https://rmnetwork.org/
part of a group of Methodist churches that explicitly welcome LGBTQ. We lost members over it. This was before the break up of the United Methodist church over this issue.

This was me.

I mean ... it's probably the biggest message of the gospels. No one is on the outside. I'm convinced that most MEGA church folks haven't read them at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve always assumed it’s because most LGBT people reasonably assume churches are homophobic until proven otherwise. A rainbow flag communicates immediately that this group seriously marginalized by many Christians is welcome and will be affirmed.

+1 it's also a message to people who are not LGBTQ+ that the church is welcoming to all. There are a lot of straight people who don't want to be part of a church that shuns any group of people.

My Methodist church went through a process with the congregation to formally becoming a "reconciling congregation", https://rmnetwork.org/
part of a group of Methodist churches that explicitly welcome LGBTQ. We lost members over it. This was before the break up of the United Methodist church over this issue.

Agree with this. Especially straight people who have LGBTQ+ family members.

[Anonymous]

As a gay man I have noticed this and I do find it weird. Another gay friend of mine commented that it's as if the churches have a new saint, this time Saint LGBTQ. Will say Saint BLM has faded away except at the most hard-core.

I do find it partly weird because I also know the Bible and the history of Christian theology so there's some pretty audacious cherry picking going on. Then again, theology is always evolving and cherry picking. But as someone who grew up in a non ideological mainline Presbyterian congregation and somewhat interested in joining a church, I do check out the church staff pages and if there's a queer non binary director of youth education (they always have the pronouns and refer to "they") I pretty much write the church off as a place that blends creative approaches to Christianity with progressive politics, aka not non ideological or political.

Mainline church memberships have been collapsing for a while. It seems like the options are either very conservative or very progressive and political and little in between.

[Anonymous]

PP again. Incidentally, the "gayest" churches are the very high church Episcopalian churches, often calling themselves Anglo-Catholic. But also tend to minimize the whole "LGBTQ-friendly" ideology that can be a bit overkill at other churches.

[Anonymous]

This is driven almost entirely by mainline Protestant churches — not evangelical or RCC churches.

My view is that this is primarily a cynical attempt by these churches to try to increase membership — look at us, we are gay friendly, you should join our church. As you said, they aren’t putting flags or special advertisements for any other group of people.

And yet what has happened? These churches continue to bleed members and are a shell of their former selves. They are only going to continue to decrease in members, and eventually those old buildings will close too because they are expensive to maintain. Moreover, if you go to most mainline Protestants, you hear VERY little about Jesus, the cross, justification by faith, etc. You do hear a lot of progressive politics, etc.

But this hardly means Christianity is dead. I go to a mega church in a comfortable modern building where 3,000-4,000 people attend every Sunday. We are apolitical. But we strongly preach the true Gospel — that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, died for our sins, and that we are saved solely through our faith in him.

The reality is that true Christianity has a certain perspective on LGBT relationships. It doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t treat people with love and respect regardless of this issue. My own church will not perform same-sex weddings but says that it is a matter of conscience whether you attend one outside of our church, and they have a “pro” and “con” argument on the website. I personally have no issue attending a same-sex marriage ceremony myself. I’m comfortable with that compromise.

But there is no doubt that when many mainline Protestant churches started to lose members, one key response was to reverse course on what had beeen church doctrine for thousands of years. I don’t think they did this for strong theological reasons because the theological justifications are flimsy when you read the New Testament and understand what marriage is in the Christian context.

Many serious Christians have left these pews as a result and now attend church elsewhere, like mine, where the churches are thriving. People want a church that has real theology and something they can believe in — not just progressive politics that they can get anywhere else.

Mainline Protestants can make up their own minds as to whether this was a wise strategy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is driven almost entirely by mainline Protestant churches — not evangelical or RCC churches.

My view is that this is primarily a cynical attempt by these churches to try to increase membership — look at us, we are gay friendly, you should join our church. As you said, they aren’t putting flags or special advertisements for any other group of people.

And yet what has happened? These churches continue to bleed members and are a shell of their former selves. They are only going to continue to decrease in members, and eventually those old buildings will close too because they are expensive to maintain. Moreover, if you go to most mainline Protestants, you hear VERY little about Jesus, the cross, justification by faith, etc. You do hear a lot of progressive politics, etc.

But this hardly means Christianity is dead. I go to a mega church in a comfortable modern building where 3,000-4,000 people attend every Sunday. We are apolitical. But we strongly preach the true Gospel — that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, died for our sins, and that we are saved solely through our faith in him.

The reality is that true Christianity has a certain perspective on LGBT relationships. It doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t treat people with love and respect regardless of this issue. My own church will not perform same-sex weddings but says that it is a matter of conscience whether you attend one outside of our church, and they have a “pro” and “con” argument on the website. I personally have no issue attending a same-sex marriage ceremony myself. I’m comfortable with that compromise.

But there is no doubt that when many mainline Protestant churches started to lose members, one key response was to reverse course on what had beeen church doctrine for thousands of years. I don’t think they did this for strong theological reasons because the theological justifications are flimsy when you read the New Testament and understand what marriage is in the Christian context.

Many serious Christians have left these pews as a result and now attend church elsewhere, like mine, where the churches are thriving. People want a church that has real theology and something they can believe in — not just progressive politics that they can get anywhere else.

Mainline Protestants can make up their own minds as to whether this was a wise strategy.

“Apolitical,” “true Christianity,” lol. I think the idea is for the church to show what kind of church it is. If you want to attend church with people like PP (I don’t), then you will self-select out of a church overtly welcoming to all.

[Anonymous]

Because we have let the Christian Right take over the narrative of what being Christian in America means. What part of the golden rule makes it okay to shun the LGBT community? Personally I believe that God loves everyone and who am I to make all these rules about other people whose activities do not affect me at all? Our church’s (Episcopalian) focus is on feeding people and all are welcome at God’s table. I don’t make myself feel good about myself by putting other people down. What good is served on Earth by diminishing other human beings? Members of our congregation feel the same way - when making the decision on whether to perform same-sex marriages there were listening and discernment sessions and there was way less discussion or debate than anyone expected.

And the Christian right kids themselves that the “doctrine” is divinely inspired. They’re going to say that we can’t pick and choose but if you’re not attending the Holy Mother Catholic Church, you already failed at that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Because we have let the Christian Right take over the narrative of what being Christian in America means. What part of the golden rule makes it okay to shun the LGBT community? Personally I believe that God loves everyone and who am I to make all these rules about other people whose activities do not affect me at all? Our church’s (Episcopalian) focus is on feeding people and all are welcome at God’s table. I don’t make myself feel good about myself by putting other people down. What good is served on Earth by diminishing other human beings? Members of our congregation feel the same way - when making the decision on whether to perform same-sex marriages there were listening and discernment sessions and there was way less discussion or debate than anyone expected.

And the Christian right kids themselves that the “doctrine” is divinely inspired. They’re going to say that we can’t pick and choose but if you’re not attending the Holy Mother Catholic Church, you already failed at that.

It’s interesting that a post that starts with a back-handed insult about the “Christian Right” then goes onto say “I don’t make myself feel good by putting other people down.” Sure you do — they might not be putting down LGBT people, but you absolutely consider yourself morally superior to other people — “those” people on the “Christian Right.” And yes, people on the Christian Right do the same thing — they are often times smug and consider themselves superior to other people. It runs in both directions.

It is only the true Gospel that takes away your superiority complex. When you believe that you are a sinner saved by grace, then you cannot believe you are morally superior to anyone else.

The “golden rule” is fine, but it’s not the Gospel. And in fact we can not follow the golden rule. Try doing it for just a few hours. Wait until someone annoys you or ticks you off and then immediately treat them the way you would want to be treated. See how hard it is.

The fact that we are imperfect and cannot follow the golden rule — that is why we need Jesus. It is through his substitutionary atonement that we are made right with God. The Bible is abundantly clear about this.

You might not believe this, but this is what Christianity and the Bible actually says. If you dont believe it, then you are belonging to a group, but its actual true Christianity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because we have let the Christian Right take over the narrative of what being Christian in America means. What part of the golden rule makes it okay to shun the LGBT community? Personally I believe that God loves everyone and who am I to make all these rules about other people whose activities do not affect me at all? Our church’s (Episcopalian) focus is on feeding people and all are welcome at God’s table. I don’t make myself feel good about myself by putting other people down. What good is served on Earth by diminishing other human beings? Members of our congregation feel the same way - when making the decision on whether to perform same-sex marriages there were listening and discernment sessions and there was way less discussion or debate than anyone expected.

And the Christian right kids themselves that the “doctrine” is divinely inspired. They’re going to say that we can’t pick and choose but if you’re not attending the Holy Mother Catholic Church, you already failed at that.

It’s interesting that a post that starts with a back-handed insult about the “Christian Right” then goes onto say “I don’t make myself feel good by putting other people down.” Sure you do — they might not be putting down LGBT people, but you absolutely consider yourself morally superior to other people — “those” people on the “Christian Right.” And yes, people on the Christian Right do the same thing — they are often times smug and consider themselves superior to other people. It runs in both directions.

It is only the true Gospel that takes away your superiority complex. When you believe that you are a sinner saved by grace, then you cannot believe you are morally superior to anyone else.

The “golden rule” is fine, but it’s not the Gospel. And in fact we can not follow the golden rule. Try doing it for just a few hours. Wait until someone annoys you or ticks you off and then immediately treat them the way you would want to be treated. See how hard it is.

The fact that we are imperfect and cannot follow the golden rule — that is why we need Jesus. It is through his substitutionary atonement that we are made right with God. The Bible is abundantly clear about this.

You might not believe this, but this is what Christianity and the Bible actually says. If you dont believe it, then you are belonging to a group, but its actual true Christianity.

I see a lot of Pharisee in the Christian right. They’re all welcome in my church. But again, unless you are Catholic, you have broken the chain from Jesus to St. Peter so you’re also just picking and choosing what you want. And picking judgment over fellow humans isn’t an appealing look. Worry about your own soul.

[Anonymous]

Is this a problem?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because we have let the Christian Right take over the narrative of what being Christian in America means. What part of the golden rule makes it okay to shun the LGBT community? Personally I believe that God loves everyone and who am I to make all these rules about other people whose activities do not affect me at all? Our church’s (Episcopalian) focus is on feeding people and all are welcome at God’s table. I don’t make myself feel good about myself by putting other people down. What good is served on Earth by diminishing other human beings? Members of our congregation feel the same way - when making the decision on whether to perform same-sex marriages there were listening and discernment sessions and there was way less discussion or debate than anyone expected.

And the Christian right kids themselves that the “doctrine” is divinely inspired. They’re going to say that we can’t pick and choose but if you’re not attending the Holy Mother Catholic Church, you already failed at that.

It’s interesting that a post that starts with a back-handed insult about the “Christian Right” then goes onto say “I don’t make myself feel good by putting other people down.” Sure you do — they might not be putting down LGBT people, but you absolutely consider yourself morally superior to other people — “those” people on the “Christian Right.” And yes, people on the Christian Right do the same thing — they are often times smug and consider themselves superior to other people. It runs in both directions.

It is only the true Gospel that takes away your superiority complex. When you believe that you are a sinner saved by grace, then you cannot believe you are morally superior to anyone else.

The “golden rule” is fine, but it’s not the Gospel. And in fact we can not follow the golden rule. Try doing it for just a few hours. Wait until someone annoys you or ticks you off and then immediately treat them the way you would want to be treated. See how hard it is.

The fact that we are imperfect and cannot follow the golden rule — that is why we need Jesus. It is through his substitutionary atonement that we are made right with God. The Bible is abundantly clear about this.

You might not believe this, but this is what Christianity and the Bible actually says. If you dont believe it, then you are belonging to a group, but its actual true Christianity.

I see a lot of Pharisee in the Christian right. They’re all welcome in my church. But again, unless you are Catholic, you have broken the chain from Jesus to St. Peter so you’re also just picking and choosing what you want. And picking judgment over fellow humans isn’t an appealing look. Worry about your own soul.

I don’t just “pick and choose”’ what I want. I look to scripture as the source of authority. There is nothing at all in the Bible about some “chain” from Jesus to Peter to Leo today. In fact, when you read what Paul writes in his letters, and compare them to what the Catholic Church practices today, it is impossible to reconcile the two.

There is no blanket rule in the Bible that we never judge other people. If you’re friend or family or someone you love is cheating, lying, stealing, committing violence — of course you would not approve. It would not be loving just to allow them to continue to do what they are doing. One of the greatest moments in the entire Bible is when Nathan confronts King David over his blatant sin.

And before anyone jumps to it — the “judge not lest ye be judged” verse is grossly misinterpreted. The Greek word is “krino” which really means “condemn” — Jesus was talking about the Pharisees who were harsh in how they condemned sinners; instead he urges us to practice humility and self reflection in how we approach people who may need help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Because we have let the Christian Right take over the narrative of what being Christian in America means. What part of the golden rule makes it okay to shun the LGBT community? Personally I believe that God loves everyone and who am I to make all these rules about other people whose activities do not affect me at all? Our church’s (Episcopalian) focus is on feeding people and all are welcome at God’s table. I don’t make myself feel good about myself by putting other people down. What good is served on Earth by diminishing other human beings? Members of our congregation feel the same way - when making the decision on whether to perform same-sex marriages there were listening and discernment sessions and there was way less discussion or debate than anyone expected.

And the Christian right kids themselves that the “doctrine” is divinely inspired. They’re going to say that we can’t pick and choose but if you’re not attending the Holy Mother Catholic Church, you already failed at that.

There is a difference between "shunning" the LGBT community and re-orienting your entire slate of ministerial staff, activities, etc. to promote pride in the lifestyle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because we have let the Christian Right take over the narrative of what being Christian in America means. What part of the golden rule makes it okay to shun the LGBT community? Personally I believe that God loves everyone and who am I to make all these rules about other people whose activities do not affect me at all? Our church’s (Episcopalian) focus is on feeding people and all are welcome at God’s table. I don’t make myself feel good about myself by putting other people down. What good is served on Earth by diminishing other human beings? Members of our congregation feel the same way - when making the decision on whether to perform same-sex marriages there were listening and discernment sessions and there was way less discussion or debate than anyone expected.

And the Christian right kids themselves that the “doctrine” is divinely inspired. They’re going to say that we can’t pick and choose but if you’re not attending the Holy Mother Catholic Church, you already failed at that.

There is a difference between "shunning" the LGBT community and re-orienting your entire slate of ministerial staff, activities, etc. to promote pride in the lifestyle.

Pease tell us where your religion draws the line.

[Anonymous]

no one has really answered the question that you posed. Like another poster said LGBTQ+ people don’t necessarily give more than anybody else. However, if you look at the RCC, which over the years decided to ignore the
pastoral needs of the gay community, when it comes to fundraising, that means that the RCC has also down a potential source of revenue. I would hope that things are changing, but the far right backlash in the RCC has resulted in fewer people in the pews and lower revenues as a result overall. Please don’t question or second-guess me. I worked for a diocese so I know what the numbers look like.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because we have let the Christian Right take over the narrative of what being Christian in America means. What part of the golden rule makes it okay to shun the LGBT community? Personally I believe that God loves everyone and who am I to make all these rules about other people whose activities do not affect me at all? Our church’s (Episcopalian) focus is on feeding people and all are welcome at God’s table. I don’t make myself feel good about myself by putting other people down. What good is served on Earth by diminishing other human beings? Members of our congregation feel the same way - when making the decision on whether to perform same-sex marriages there were listening and discernment sessions and there was way less discussion or debate than anyone expected.

And the Christian right kids themselves that the “doctrine” is divinely inspired. They’re going to say that we can’t pick and choose but if you’re not attending the Holy Mother Catholic Church, you already failed at that.

It’s interesting that a post that starts with a back-handed insult about the “Christian Right” then goes onto say “I don’t make myself feel good by putting other people down.” Sure you do — they might not be putting down LGBT people, but you absolutely consider yourself morally superior to other people — “those” people on the “Christian Right.” And yes, people on the Christian Right do the same thing — they are often times smug and consider themselves superior to other people. It runs in both directions.

It is only the true Gospel that takes away your superiority complex. When you believe that you are a sinner saved by grace, then you cannot believe you are morally superior to anyone else.

The “golden rule” is fine, but it’s not the Gospel. And in fact we can not follow the golden rule. Try doing it for just a few hours. Wait until someone annoys you or ticks you off and then immediately treat them the way you would want to be treated. See how hard it is.

The fact that we are imperfect and cannot follow the golden rule — that is why we need Jesus. It is through his substitutionary atonement that we are made right with God. The Bible is abundantly clear about this.

You might not believe this, but this is what Christianity and the Bible actually says. If you dont believe it, then you are belonging to a group, but its actual true Christianity.

Ah yes -- Thank god for "substitutionary atonement". Where would we be without it? /S