Whatever happened to: "APs are a scam"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the absence of a functional Department of Education requiring a national exam at the end of high school, like France and Germany and the UK do, or national college entrance exams, like China and Korea and Japan do...

... we're stuck with private companies selling their own exams.

The AP exams, the SAT and the ACT are all legitimate, extensively-researched, and rigorous tests of knowledge. They're not scams. Colleges need to compare students to each other to evaluate their academic readiness, and GPAs can't serve that purpose since they're not calculated in the same way, using the same instructional quality or metrics, in different school systems.

It's too bad someone, the school or the end consumer, needs to pay for these private exams. But take it up with the government, and the voters.

MD has MCAP which are end of school year tests administered in grades 3-8th. Also MCAP Algebra, MCAP Biology, Government test, MCAP English/some sort of English exam after 10th grade English.

The MCAPs are what is really a scam -- the benchmarks are set so that all the kids will pass, because, of course, you want most kids to pass high school or you will screw their lifetime work opportunities.

Do they take MCAPs in high school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the absence of a functional Department of Education requiring a national exam at the end of high school, like France and Germany and the UK do, or national college entrance exams, like China and Korea and Japan do...

... we're stuck with private companies selling their own exams.

The AP exams, the SAT and the ACT are all legitimate, extensively-researched, and rigorous tests of knowledge. They're not scams. Colleges need to compare students to each other to evaluate their academic readiness, and GPAs can't serve that purpose since they're not calculated in the same way, using the same instructional quality or metrics, in different school systems.

It's too bad someone, the school or the end consumer, needs to pay for these private exams. But take it up with the government, and the voters.

MD has MCAP which are end of school year tests administered in grades 3-8th. Also MCAP Algebra, MCAP Biology, Government test, MCAP English/some sort of English exam after 10th grade English.

The MCAPs are what is really a scam -- the benchmarks are set so that all the kids will pass, because, of course, you want most kids to pass high school or you will screw their lifetime work opportunities.

Do they take MCAPs in high school?

Yes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A kid who goes to college as a sophomore based on AP scores saves money (and I know why they'd make that choice!), but at the cost of education because they've substituted an accelerated high school level course for learning at the college level.

I'm the PP who said my kid could start as a second semester sophomore. She is in SMCS. I've looked at the curriculum and the content therein. It is certainly college level course work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A kid who goes to college as a sophomore based on AP scores saves money (and I know why they'd make that choice!), but at the cost of education because they've substituted an accelerated high school level course for learning at the college level.

I'm the PP who said my kid could start as a second semester sophomore. She is in SMCS. I've looked at the curriculum and the content therein. It is certainly college level course work.

SMCS is something beyond AP classes, though. It's possible that that is comparable to a college level class, but bog standard AP classes aren't.

You don't even have to look very hard to see this. It's normal for freshmen to take APs now. With the exception of a few outliers, high school freshman are not capable of college level work. Possibly community college level work, but not work at the level of a decently selective college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:College Board making $$$$$

Yes, it is... but it is a non profit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the absence of a functional Department of Education requiring a national exam at the end of high school, like France and Germany and the UK do, or national college entrance exams, like China and Korea and Japan do...

... we're stuck with private companies selling their own exams.

The AP exams, the SAT and the ACT are all legitimate, extensively-researched, and rigorous tests of knowledge. They're not scams. Colleges need to compare students to each other to evaluate their academic readiness, and GPAs can't serve that purpose since they're not calculated in the same way, using the same instructional quality or metrics, in different school systems.

It's too bad someone, the school or the end consumer, needs to pay for these private exams. But take it up with the government, and the voters.

MD has MCAP which are end of school year tests administered in grades 3-8th. Also MCAP Algebra, MCAP Biology, Government test, MCAP English/some sort of English exam after 10th grade English.

And those are not standardized for comparison across the country.

[Anonymous]

That was then, this is now. APs one of the few national standardized tests with reported scores. 5s are 5s. It is amazing how unprepared HS students are, imo, for college courses and exams.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:AP courses have standard textbooks, and a year-end final test. This is already much better than honors-for-all courses in most of MCPS HS curriculum except magnets/IB/humanity. The latter contain wider or deeper contents, more challenging, and kids build strong foundations through those courses with like-mind peers. No textbook associated with these courses and they are really designed by the magnet/IB/humanity teachers to fit the need and level of a special student body.

While I truly wish part of the latter can be expanded to give local HS students more opportunities to challenge themselves, MCPS would mess it up 100% for sure, just like what they did for HIGH in MS, and all those honor-for-all courses.

A course with no college textbook is not inherently superior to one that uses a textbook.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A kid who goes to college as a sophomore based on AP scores saves money (and I know why they'd make that choice!), but at the cost of education because they've substituted an accelerated high school level course for learning at the college level.

I'm the PP who said my kid could start as a second semester sophomore. She is in SMCS. I've looked at the curriculum and the content therein. It is certainly college level course work.

SMCS is something beyond AP classes, though. It's possible that that is comparable to a college level class, but bog standard AP classes aren't.

You don't even have to look very hard to see this. It's normal for freshmen to take APs now. With the exception of a few outliers, high school freshman are not capable of college level work. Possibly community college level work, but not work at the level of a decently selective college.

AP courses can count toward college credits for many colleges (e.g., UMD), so practically it's cost-effective if your goal (or your parents' goal) is to pay the least amount of tuition to get a college degree. Also, for mandated courses like literacy, foreign language, if a STEM-major kid can get a solid 5 on those AP courses, there's no big harm to just skip taking those courses in college. They'll learn how to write or use a second language through their working environment. Although college board is definitely using AP for making money, they provide some solid standardized environment to enable fair learning and evaluation pipeline, which MCPS struggles in getting available to every student.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My only gripe with AP classes is the fact that the entire year of work really doesn’t matter if you do poorly on the test. There are a multitude of reasons why a kid might do poorly on the test, many of which are out of their control.

I prefer my daughter taking dual enrollment classes when she reaches 11th grade and can drive to MC. I know this sounds bad, but For now as a sophomore, she takes AP mainly to filter her classmates.

??? She still gets grades for the entire year!. She just doesn’t get college credit without taking the exam. The same would be true if she took any other HS class.

As an AP teacher, I can tell you that kids who do not plan to take the exams drag the rest of the class down. They definitely take the course less seriously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the answer to your question is pretty simple, MCPS doesn't base educational decisions on a handful of op-eds and articles. Lots of people disagree that AP classes are a scam, even if one AP teacher wrote that they were a decade ago. Even if he is right in his particular arguments, there's a good reason for MCPS to offer courses that college and parents think are valuable.

That said, I think the author of those pieces (John Tierney) is right in at least one respect. AP courses are not genuinely college level courses. They are advanced high school courses. Tierney is more qualified to say that than I am (he's taught at both the high school and college levels), but I say that pretty confidently based on my own school experience.

A kid who goes to college as a sophomore based on AP scores saves money (and I know why they'd make that choice!), but at the cost of education because they've substituted an accelerated high school level course for learning at the college level.

Obviously, advanced courses for high schoolers have their own value, but calling them "college level" is misrepresentation of the reality of what's happening.

Mostly agree but it probably depends on the college, and on the course. An AP level language course might be decently similar to an basic language class in any college. And there are some colleges that are definitely operating more on the AP level of inquiry for classes.

IME, most kids don't use AP to shave a year off their schooling to get it down to 3. They do use it to shave a year off to get it from 5 to 4 in schools where it's hard to finish in 4. They also use it to get "sophomore" standing in order to be able to register for classes prior to freshman, or other benefits like that. At some schools, that's hugely important in being able to get the classes you want.

Or double or triple major...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the absence of a functional Department of Education requiring a national exam at the end of high school, like France and Germany and the UK do, or national college entrance exams, like China and Korea and Japan do...

... we're stuck with private companies selling their own exams.

The AP exams, the SAT and the ACT are all legitimate, extensively-researched, and rigorous tests of knowledge. They're not scams. Colleges need to compare students to each other to evaluate their academic readiness, and GPAs can't serve that purpose since they're not calculated in the same way, using the same instructional quality or metrics, in different school systems.

It's too bad someone, the school or the end consumer, needs to pay for these private exams. But take it up with the government, and the voters.

MD has MCAP which are end of school year tests administered in grades 3-8th. Also MCAP Algebra, MCAP Biology, Government test, MCAP English/some sort of English exam after 10th grade English.

Other states have exams too; but how do they compare to each other? Nothing but AP and SAT are national. They tried to get people on board with the Common Core, but it became the boogie man of the right and fell to politics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A kid who goes to college as a sophomore based on AP scores saves money (and I know why they'd make that choice!), but at the cost of education because they've substituted an accelerated high school level course for learning at the college level.

I'm the PP who said my kid could start as a second semester sophomore. She is in SMCS. I've looked at the curriculum and the content therein. It is certainly college level course work.

SMCS is something beyond AP classes, though. It's possible that that is comparable to a college level class, but bog standard AP classes aren't.

You don't even have to look very hard to see this. It's normal for freshmen to take APs now. With the exception of a few outliers, high school freshman are not capable of college level work. Possibly community college level work, but not work at the level of a decently selective college.

Not all AP are taught the same either. My kid's AP calc class used the same textbook as U MD calculus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the absence of a functional Department of Education requiring a national exam at the end of high school, like France and Germany and the UK do, or national college entrance exams, like China and Korea and Japan do...

... we're stuck with private companies selling their own exams.

The AP exams, the SAT and the ACT are all legitimate, extensively-researched, and rigorous tests of knowledge. They're not scams. Colleges need to compare students to each other to evaluate their academic readiness, and GPAs can't serve that purpose since they're not calculated in the same way, using the same instructional quality or metrics, in different school systems.

It's too bad someone, the school or the end consumer, needs to pay for these private exams. But take it up with the government, and the voters.

MD has MCAP which are end of school year tests administered in grades 3-8th. Also MCAP Algebra, MCAP Biology, Government test, MCAP English/some sort of English exam after 10th grade English.

The MCAPs are what is really a scam -- the benchmarks are set so that all the kids will pass, because, of course, you want most kids to pass high school or you will screw their lifetime work opportunities.

Thatbis not true. Lots of students — and most students in some subjects — do not pass.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In the absence of a functional Department of Education requiring a national exam at the end of high school, like France and Germany and the UK do, or national college entrance exams, like China and Korea and Japan do...

... we're stuck with private companies selling their own exams.

The AP exams, the SAT and the ACT are all legitimate, extensively-researched, and rigorous tests of knowledge. They're not scams. Colleges need to compare students to each other to evaluate their academic readiness, and GPAs can't serve that purpose since they're not calculated in the same way, using the same instructional quality or metrics, in different school systems.

It's too bad someone, the school or the end consumer, needs to pay for these private exams. But take it up with the government, and the voters.

Lol. The primarily progressive institutions that run educational departments nationwide would never condone something like this because it would show massive racial disparities. That’s why California eliminated the SAT for college admissions. Never going to happen.