Any high school teachers here who can give some frank talk about which types of students get into the top colleges?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The immense majority of teachers do not have any insight into college admissions, OP. They're just like the rest of the population. US colleges are that opaque. It's not like this in any other country.

The mere existence of a CDS makes your "opaque" claim laughable.

[Anonymous]

Since most teachers teach 150 students per year, and have knowledge of hundreds of others, I would think that they are in a paramount position to opine about what colleges look for in an applicant than a random parent, or even a hustling college counselor/social media influencer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve been teaching AP for many, many years. Most of my students are the 4.0 unweighted GPA types. They volunteer, are varsity athletes, and they are doing all they can to look good for college. Some truly stand out, but most are very strong candidates.

And then college admissions come and the results appear random. The true stand-outs face surprising rejections and the “just” strong candidate got in instead.

Here’s what I think: students have to meet a threshold to make it into the “considered” pile at a college. But after making it into that pile, the choice itself appears random.

All the kids can really do is get themselves into the pile. Then cross fingers and hope for the best.

I think you are accurate all the way until your point about the threshold to be considered pile. After that, it is not random though it may look that way to the outside. The decisions are based on things like.:
- Major (classics gets in over bio; gender studies over engineering; English over CS)
- Talent/ability (National award winning squash player gets in over varsity baseball captain; neither recruited. National ranked figure skater gets on over state champion soccer player; neither recruited)
- essays (what kids reveal in essays matters a lot more than people think.) There is a right way to do essays in the wrong way to do essays. Unfortunately, most HS English teachers advise kids to do the wrong thing. It’s not about overcomplicated sentence and essay structures. The writing should be at easy to read/grasp level; varied sentences, including some very short sentences; poignant, personal, and touching on at least 3-4 of your personal values. It should also not repeat anything covered anywhere else in the application, including your major.
- LOR (an exceptional LOR can make a difference)

Look at the T10 scoring rubrics. You can see why certain kids get in once you understand the scoring.

I’m the PP. I still see it as random. I help with the essays. (No, I don’t advise poetic, flowery essays. People do that?) I write those exceptional LOR. I see the variety of majors.

And, after all these years, it still seems random. I know these students more than admissions officers ever will. Sometimes the admissions appear way off.

I always wondered...say you've been teaching for 25 years. If you write a letter of recommendation for a student that has "wowed' you even compared to the prior 25 years of students whom you have taught, do you say that? For example, "the finest scholar in my 25 years of teaching?" Does that carry any weight?

I once had a job where I read a lot of letters, and yes, I think it would. I was a contractor helping with a busy college season for a school district and temped at several schools, so I looked at thousands of letters. There are many students who are very bright, hardworking kids, and they get into good colleges. But there's also certain kids who are significantly smarter than those kids, and that's what this kind of comment indicates. Teachers have, every year, some kids with a 4.0 and perfect or near-perfect SATs and various APs or whatever. These kids are 1% or 2% of the class each year. But the one-in-25-years kid is a cut above those. Because a high school teacher sees about 150 kids per year. So to be 1 in 25 years is to be very rare indeed.

And there are kids who just have something special about them. Something that isn't captured by grades or test scores, might be shown in the essay, but the teachers may also call it out. One girl for example, she had good grades, wasn't super strong in math, family wasn't super savvy about college admits, but she was unbelievably insightful as to other people. Just off the charts in her perceptiveness and compassion, a truly unique and rare human being. Her interpretations of literature were stunning. So the teachers wrote her really special recs that highlighted this unique personal quality, of the "Most unique student in my entire teaching career" "rare ability" "stands out above any person I ever met" kind of thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve been teaching AP for many, many years. Most of my students are the 4.0 unweighted GPA types. They volunteer, are varsity athletes, and they are doing all they can to look good for college. Some truly stand out, but most are very strong candidates.

And then college admissions come and the results appear random. The true stand-outs face surprising rejections and the “just” strong candidate got in instead.

Here’s what I think: students have to meet a threshold to make it into the “considered” pile at a college. But after making it into that pile, the choice itself appears random.

All the kids can really do is get themselves into the pile. Then cross fingers and hope for the best.

I think you are accurate all the way until your point about the threshold to be considered pile. After that, it is not random though it may look that way to the outside. The decisions are based on things like.:
- Major (classics gets in over bio; gender studies over engineering; English over CS)
- Talent/ability (National award winning squash player gets in over varsity baseball captain; neither recruited. National ranked figure skater gets on over state champion soccer player; neither recruited)
- essays (what kids reveal in essays matters a lot more than people think.) There is a right way to do essays in the wrong way to do essays. Unfortunately, most HS English teachers advise kids to do the wrong thing. It’s not about overcomplicated sentence and essay structures. The writing should be at easy to read/grasp level; varied sentences, including some very short sentences; poignant, personal, and touching on at least 3-4 of your personal values. It should also not repeat anything covered anywhere else in the application, including your major.
- LOR (an exceptional LOR can make a difference)

Look at the T10 scoring rubrics. You can see why certain kids get in once you understand the scoring.

I’m the PP. I still see it as random. I help with the essays. (No, I don’t advise poetic, flowery essays. People do that?) I write those exceptional LOR. I see the variety of majors.

And, after all these years, it still seems random. I know these students more than admissions officers ever will. Sometimes the admissions appear way off.

I always wondered...say you've been teaching for 25 years. If you write a letter of recommendation for a student that has "wowed' you even compared to the prior 25 years of students whom you have taught, do you say that? For example, "the finest scholar in my 25 years of teaching?" Does that carry any weight?

I once had a job where I read a lot of letters, and yes, I think it would. I was a contractor helping with a busy college season for a school district and temped at several schools, so I looked at thousands of letters. There are many students who are very bright, hardworking kids, and they get into good colleges. But there's also certain kids who are significantly smarter than those kids, and that's what this kind of comment indicates. Teachers have, every year, some kids with a 4.0 and perfect or near-perfect SATs and various APs or whatever. These kids are 1% or 2% of the class each year. But the one-in-25-years kid is a cut above those. Because a high school teacher sees about 150 kids per year. So to be 1 in 25 years is to be very rare indeed.

And there are kids who just have something special about them. Something that isn't captured by grades or test scores, might be shown in the essay, but the teachers may also call it out. One girl for example, she had good grades, wasn't super strong in math, family wasn't super savvy about college admits, but she was unbelievably insightful as to other people. Just off the charts in her perceptiveness and compassion, a truly unique and rare human being. Her interpretations of literature were stunning. So the teachers wrote her really special recs that highlighted this unique personal quality, of the "Most unique student in my entire teaching career" "rare ability" "stands out above any person I ever met" kind of thing.

Oops posted before I was done-- so she ended up at a college significantly better than normal for her GPA and test scores. It must have been the letters, essay, or interview.

[Anonymous]

It's a simple formula - rich or hooked - for everyone else it's a lottery

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Editors of the school newspaper. Legacies. Athletes. Especially weird ones like Crew. Or URM that has an amazing story and stats to back it up.

While this seems logical, it is not universally accurate. Each admissions cycle, I am surprised at the disappointing college admissions results for high school newspaper editors-in-chief. Baffling to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’ve been teaching AP for many, many years. Most of my students are the 4.0 unweighted GPA types. They volunteer, are varsity athletes, and they are doing all they can to look good for college. Some truly stand out, but most are very strong candidates.

And then college admissions come and the results appear random. The true stand-outs face surprising rejections and the “just” strong candidate got in instead.

Here’s what I think: students have to meet a threshold to make it into the “considered” pile at a college. But after making it into that pile, the choice itself appears random.

All the kids can really do is get themselves into the pile. Then cross fingers and hope for the best.

I think you are accurate all the way until your point about the threshold to be considered pile. After that, it is not random though it may look that way to the outside. The decisions are based on things like.:
- Major (classics gets in over bio; gender studies over engineering; English over CS)
- Talent/ability (National award winning squash player gets in over varsity baseball captain; neither recruited. National ranked figure skater gets on over state champion soccer player; neither recruited)
- essays (what kids reveal in essays matters a lot more than people think.) There is a right way to do essays in the wrong way to do essays. Unfortunately, most HS English teachers advise kids to do the wrong thing. It’s not about overcomplicated sentence and essay structures. The writing should be at easy to read/grasp level; varied sentences, including some very short sentences; poignant, personal, and touching on at least 3-4 of your personal values. It should also not repeat anything covered anywhere else in the application, including your major.
- LOR (an exceptional LOR can make a difference)

Look at the T10 scoring rubrics. You can see why certain kids get in once you understand the scoring.

I’m the PP. I still see it as random. I help with the essays. (No, I don’t advise poetic, flowery essays. People do that?) I write those exceptional LOR. I see the variety of majors.

And, after all these years, it still seems random. I know these students more than admissions officers ever will. Sometimes the admissions appear way off.

+1

[Anonymous]

Most high school teachers will think anything above ODU & GMU is a waste of money & effort.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's a simple formula - rich or hooked - for everyone else it's a lottery

Hardly a lottery for unhooked applicants without the stats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Feeder school aka mostly private

lol facts say otherwise
Public’s do better overall

Not this year

Always. Even a school like Landon that’s not a Big 3 had much, much better college placements than any public school in the area.

Fwiw, I’m not sure how people can make general statements on admissions without knowing every public school. For example, our public had more than a handful of kids get into ivies this year but go with scholarships at lower ranked schools. Normally this might happen with a couple, but I can think of at least six. So while the instagram may look like it was a slow year for admissions, in reality it was a great year for Ivy admissions but kids are making different choices on where they want to be.

**Sigh** This is such a tired and baseless argument. I know you don’t want facts to interfere with your opinions, but here goes:

Last year, 353 MoCo public school students, across 10 public schools, applied to Harvard. Only 4 were admitted. Last year, GDS sent 6 students to Harvard, and Sidwell sent 4 (out of fewer than 39 Sidwell applicants).

https://bethesdamagazine.com/2024/09/17/where-do-moco-students-attend-college/

This is a list of high schools that sent the most students to Princeton for the Classes of 2003–16. Although public schools comprise the vast majority of high schools in this country, they are dwarfed by private schools on this list:

https://www.dailyprincetonian.com/article/2024/12/princeton-data-admissions-trends-decline-high-schools-feeder

That’s just a couple of examples from two highly selective universities. Colleges will become even more focused on well-prepared full-pay private school students in the wake of this administration’s funding cuts.

[Anonymous]

Full pay students have a leg up. It's how it's always been.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Editors of the school newspaper. Legacies. Athletes. Especially weird ones like Crew. Or URM that has an amazing story and stats to back it up.

My DS was all of the above on what you mention and still was rejected by 75% of the schools he applied to! He's going to Purdue engineering but felt like he should have gotten into something better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Feeder school aka mostly private

lol facts say otherwise
Public’s do better overall

Not this year

Always. Even a school like Landon that’s not a Big 3 had much, much better college placements than any public school in the area.

Fwiw, I’m not sure how people can make general statements on admissions without knowing every public school. For example, our public had more than a handful of kids get into ivies this year but go with scholarships at lower ranked schools. Normally this might happen with a couple, but I can think of at least six. So while the instagram may look like it was a slow year for admissions, in reality it was a great year for Ivy admissions but kids are making different choices on where they want to be.

**Sigh** This is such a tired and baseless argument. I know you don’t want facts to interfere with your opinions, but here goes:

Last year, 353 MoCo public school students, across 10 public schools, applied to Harvard. Only 4 were admitted. Last year, GDS sent 6 students to Harvard, and Sidwell sent 4 (out of fewer than 39 Sidwell applicants).

https://bethesdamagazine.com/2024/09/17/where-do-moco-students-attend-college/

This is a list of high schools that sent the most students to Princeton for the Classes of 2003–16. Although public schools comprise the vast majority of high schools in this country, they are dwarfed by private schools on this list:

https://www.dailyprincetonian.com/article/2024/12/princeton-data-admissions-trends-decline-high-schools-feeder

That’s just a couple of examples from two highly selective universities. Colleges will become even more focused on well-prepared full-pay private school students in the wake of this administration’s funding cuts.

I think what these feeder high schools have in common is that they are very selective to begin with. Philips Exeter rejects 86% of the students who apply and accepts just 14%. Of those 14% top students who are invited to attend, they get to engage in a wonderfully deep and challenging curriculum that was developed for their students (unlike generic College Board APs). It's no wonder they send a far higher rate of kids to Princeton etc. The kids are smart and talented to begin with, and then they spend 4 years at a terrific school being challenged alongside very motivated and bright peers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Feeder school aka mostly private

lol facts say otherwise
Public’s do better overall

Not this year

Always. Even a school like Landon that’s not a Big 3 had much, much better college placements than any public school in the area.

Fwiw, I’m not sure how people can make general statements on admissions without knowing every public school. For example, our public had more than a handful of kids get into ivies this year but go with scholarships at lower ranked schools. Normally this might happen with a couple, but I can think of at least six. So while the instagram may look like it was a slow year for admissions, in reality it was a great year for Ivy admissions but kids are making different choices on where they want to be.

**Sigh** This is such a tired and baseless argument. I know you don’t want facts to interfere with your opinions, but here goes:

Last year, 353 MoCo public school students, across 10 public schools, applied to Harvard. Only 4 were admitted. Last year, GDS sent 6 students to Harvard, and Sidwell sent 4 (out of fewer than 39 Sidwell applicants).

https://bethesdamagazine.com/2024/09/17/where-do-moco-students-attend-college/

This is a list of high schools that sent the most students to Princeton for the Classes of 2003–16. Although public schools comprise the vast majority of high schools in this country, they are dwarfed by private schools on this list:

https://www.dailyprincetonian.com/article/2024/12/princeton-data-admissions-trends-decline-high-schools-feeder

That’s just a couple of examples from two highly selective universities. Colleges will become even more focused on well-prepared full-pay private school students in the wake of this administration’s funding cuts.

Aren’t GDS and Sidwell considered big 3? That’s not making the case against public schools doing better than privates that aren’t feeders.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think what these feeder high schools have in common is that they are very selective to begin with. Philips Exeter rejects 86% of the students who apply and accepts just 14%. Of those 14% top students who are invited to attend, they get to engage in a wonderfully deep and challenging curriculum that was developed for their students (unlike generic College Board APs). It's no wonder they send a far higher rate of kids to Princeton etc. The kids are smart and talented to begin with, and then they spend 4 years at a terrific school being challenged alongside very motivated and bright peers.

Then why an 18 page thread about how apparently attending public school purportedly places applicants at a competitive advantage?
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1270900.page