WaPo: Pedestrians Deaths Have Doubled in Past 10 Years

[Anonymous]

As with a lot of well-intentioned efforts, this one falls down on effective enforcement of the rules. A lot of people know they can blow through speed cameras and red light cameras with impunity and they do. We could have police pull people over when they violate the law but we've abandoned that because too many police had racist behaviors.

We're left to depend on peoples' good intentions, so here we are.
Like a LOT of things in our world today, I honestly think we get the outcomes that we truly want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Vision Zero has ironically killed at least one pedestrian this year.

Vision Zero is an unachievable goal. You can throw as much money at it as you want and you will never reach zero vehicluar deaths. It's a perfect government program.

Cities like Oslo, actually have accomplished this. They've had multiple years of zero vehicular deaths. If you want something more American, Hoboken has gone what, five years without one either.

But those cities actually wanted to fix things, not just make performative/revenue grabbing gestures.

With respect to Oslo

reached a milestone in 2019: Zero pedestrian and cyclist fatalities in the city center.

I am sure that you could draw some arbitrary line and claim it is the city center in DC as well and claim success!

Olso's city center has a population of around 6,000 people.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvadraturen_(Kristiansand)

Wow! That's just like the District! Apples to apples.

[Anonymous]

There seems to be an assumption that drivers are always at fault. But that's not at all what the police say.

There were 35 traffic deaths in DC in 2022 (the most recent we have data). Of them, 12 were blamed on pedestrians, the police determined.

See page 24 of the police department's annual report: https://mpdc.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/mpdc/publication/attachments/AR_2022_lowres.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be an assumption that drivers are always at fault. But that's not at all what the police say.

There were 35 traffic deaths in DC in 2022 (the most recent we have data). Of them, 12 were blamed on pedestrians, the police determined.

See page 24 of the police department's annual report: https://mpdc.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/mpdc/publication/attachments/AR_2022_lowres.pdf

It's just that one poster, who also says that the MPD are liars, that thinks everything is always the fault of cars.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Vision Zero has ironically killed at least one pedestrian this year.

Vision Zero is an unachievable goal. You can throw as much money at it as you want and you will never reach zero vehicluar deaths. It's a perfect government program.

Cities like Oslo, actually have accomplished this. They've had multiple years of zero vehicular deaths. If you want something more American, Hoboken has gone what, five years without one either.

But those cities actually wanted to fix things, not just make performative/revenue grabbing gestures.

With respect to Oslo

reached a milestone in 2019: Zero pedestrian and cyclist fatalities in the city center.

I am sure that you could draw some arbitrary line and claim it is the city center in DC as well and claim success!

Olso's city center has a population of around 6,000 people.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvadraturen_(Kristiansand)

Wow! That's just like the District! Apples to apples.

The municipality of Oslo had a population of 709,037 in 2022, while the city's greater urban area had a population of 1,064,235 in 2022, and the metropolitan area had an estimated population of 1,546,706 in 2021.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I entirely agree with you, OP.

My own spouse is a dangerous driver. I keep telling him that one day he will cause an accident. It's unbelievable how reckless drivers can be - I see it every day when I commute. I live in downtown Bethesda, with lots of pedestrians crossing every which way, and some drivers just don't stop for people who cross legally at crosswalks, even though it's the law.

Where are you doing about it other than telling random internet strangers?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Vision Zero has ironically killed at least one pedestrian this year.

Vision Zero is an unachievable goal. You can throw as much money at it as you want and you will never reach zero vehicluar deaths. It's a perfect government program.

Cities like Oslo, actually have accomplished this. They've had multiple years of zero vehicular deaths. If you want something more American, Hoboken has gone what, five years without one either.

But those cities actually wanted to fix things, not just make performative/revenue grabbing gestures.

With respect to Oslo

reached a milestone in 2019: Zero pedestrian and cyclist fatalities in the city center.

I am sure that you could draw some arbitrary line and claim it is the city center in DC as well and claim success!

Olso's city center has a population of around 6,000 people.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kvadraturen_(Kristiansand)

Wow! That's just like the District! Apples to apples.

The municipality of Oslo had a population of 709,037 in 2022, while the city's greater urban area had a population of 1,064,235 in 2022, and the metropolitan area had an estimated population of 1,546,706 in 2021.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo

That's not the City Center. How many fatalities have occured in DC's federal core?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As with a lot of well-intentioned efforts, this one falls down on effective enforcement of the rules. A lot of people know they can blow through speed cameras and red light cameras with impunity and they do. We could have police pull people over when they violate the law but we've abandoned that because too many police had racist behaviors.

We're left to depend on peoples' good intentions, so here we are.
Like a LOT of things in our world today, I honestly think we get the outcomes that we truly want.

Yes. This uptick in deaths is due to deliberate policy choices. Will not change until the policies change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be an assumption that drivers are always at fault. But that's not at all what the police say.

There were 35 traffic deaths in DC in 2022 (the most recent we have data). Of them, 12 were blamed on pedestrians, the police determined.

See page 24 of the police department's annual report: https://mpdc.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/mpdc/publication/attachments/AR_2022_lowres.pdf

It's just that one poster, who also says that the MPD are liars, that thinks everything is always the fault of cars.

No. You continuously misrepresent MPD’s analysis on here. Multiple posters have called you out on this over recent months and years. You ignore them and keep on misrepresenting. You are a despicable and dangerous individual.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One thing the traffic camera advocates fail to realize is that they actually lead to more erratic driving. There are some people who now exaggerate their stops at every stop sign because they haven't familiarized themselves with the camera locations, so I've seen people illegally go around others at stop signs. Same issue with speed cameras: some people now go slowly everywhere which makes many drivers change lanes more aggressively to get around them. I am not surprised that the cameras are having the opposite effect than what was intended.

I may be wrong, but it’s possible that you might realize how completely daft your ideas are if you read them aloud before posting.

You are arguing that automated enforcement causes some drivers to obey law and the obedience to these law of these drivers cause other drivers to engage in unsafe and aggressive driving behavior.

I don’t think I could formulate a more ridiculous argument if I tried.

I can only assume that you not only have you never driven in DC, you’ve most likely never driven anywhere else either.

Those of us who have done both observe maniacal driving everywhere in the DC area, whether in sight of cameras or not, but also observe that almost all drivers obey the law in jurisdictions where that law is actually enforced.

The solution to our problem is very simple and that is for MPD - and surrounding departments - to start writing traffic tickets again.

MPD literally is not allowed to do this in a volume that would affect anything. They have been told by the Council that they are to reduce their physical interactions with people and cannot chase dangerous drivers. Instead, DC is trying to speed-camera its way out of the problem, which already is a proven failure because DC residents can continue driving despite thousands of dollars in tickets -- this is entirely, 100 percent on the DC Council -- and out-of-state drivers can safely throw their speed-camera tickets in the trash with only the slightest chance of repercussion.

The other issue is that DC relies on people paying their speed-camera tickets to an alarming degree, budget-wise. They're counting on that money to balance the books. This is dismal policy, and if Trump actually follows through with his threats to take control of DC, I will bet all my money that the speed cameras will be the first thing he targets.

Myself and more than a few others have told the Council this very directly during Transportation Committee hearings. What was clear from their responses is that they are completely averse to having MPD start doing traffic stops again. I recall one moment when Brianne Nadeau floated the idea of creating an entirely separate agency to enforce traffic regulations - a decent concept, except that the officers of this new agency would need to be armed and would thus effectively be police officers, just in a different agency. The initial draft of the STEER Act put forth by Charles Allen assigned points based on automated violations, but that was stripped from the final bill on the legal advice they received (questionable advice, in my view). The Council, the Mayor, and MPD need to hear it from everyone that we need MPD out doing traffic stops again. There is no substitute for that at all if we want the city streets to be safer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be an assumption that drivers are always at fault. But that's not at all what the police say.

There were 35 traffic deaths in DC in 2022 (the most recent we have data). Of them, 12 were blamed on pedestrians, the police determined.

See page 24 of the police department's annual report: https://mpdc.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/mpdc/publication/attachments/AR_2022_lowres.pdf

It's just that one poster, who also says that the MPD are liars, that thinks everything is always the fault of cars.

No. You continuously misrepresent MPD’s analysis on here. Multiple posters have called you out on this over recent months and years. You ignore them and keep on misrepresenting. You are a despicable and dangerous individual.

No. It's just you and you're filled with bad faith.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One thing the traffic camera advocates fail to realize is that they actually lead to more erratic driving. There are some people who now exaggerate their stops at every stop sign because they haven't familiarized themselves with the camera locations, so I've seen people illegally go around others at stop signs. Same issue with speed cameras: some people now go slowly everywhere which makes many drivers change lanes more aggressively to get around them. I am not surprised that the cameras are having the opposite effect than what was intended.

I may be wrong, but it’s possible that you might realize how completely daft your ideas are if you read them aloud before posting.

You are arguing that automated enforcement causes some drivers to obey law and the obedience to these law of these drivers cause other drivers to engage in unsafe and aggressive driving behavior.

I don’t think I could formulate a more ridiculous argument if I tried.

I can only assume that you not only have you never driven in DC, you’ve most likely never driven anywhere else either.

Those of us who have done both observe maniacal driving everywhere in the DC area, whether in sight of cameras or not, but also observe that almost all drivers obey the law in jurisdictions where that law is actually enforced.

The solution to our problem is very simple and that is for MPD - and surrounding departments - to start writing traffic tickets again.

MPD literally is not allowed to do this in a volume that would affect anything. They have been told by the Council that they are to reduce their physical interactions with people and cannot chase dangerous drivers. Instead, DC is trying to speed-camera its way out of the problem, which already is a proven failure because DC residents can continue driving despite thousands of dollars in tickets -- this is entirely, 100 percent on the DC Council -- and out-of-state drivers can safely throw their speed-camera tickets in the trash with only the slightest chance of repercussion.

The other issue is that DC relies on people paying their speed-camera tickets to an alarming degree, budget-wise. They're counting on that money to balance the books. This is dismal policy, and if Trump actually follows through with his threats to take control of DC, I will bet all my money that the speed cameras will be the first thing he targets.

Myself and more than a few others have told the Council this very directly during Transportation Committee hearings. What was clear from their responses is that they are completely averse to having MPD start doing traffic stops again. I recall one moment when Brianne Nadeau floated the idea of creating an entirely separate agency to enforce traffic regulations - a decent concept, except that the officers of this new agency would need to be armed and would thus effectively be police officers, just in a different agency. The initial draft of the STEER Act put forth by Charles Allen assigned points based on automated violations, but that was stripped from the final bill on the legal advice they received (questionable advice, in my view). The Council, the Mayor, and MPD need to hear it from everyone that we need MPD out doing traffic stops again. There is no substitute for that at all if we want the city streets to be safer.

This will never happen without wholesale changes on the Council.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be an assumption that drivers are always at fault. But that's not at all what the police say.

There were 35 traffic deaths in DC in 2022 (the most recent we have data). Of them, 12 were blamed on pedestrians, the police determined.

See page 24 of the police department's annual report: https://mpdc.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/mpdc/publication/attachments/AR_2022_lowres.pdf

It's just that one poster, who also says that the MPD are liars, that thinks everything is always the fault of cars.

No. You continuously misrepresent MPD’s analysis on here. Multiple posters have called you out on this over recent months and years. You ignore them and keep on misrepresenting. You are a despicable and dangerous individual.

No. It's just you and you're filled with bad faith.

Bad faith? Like claiming that a certain number of people have been killed by speeding drivers when that number actually represents the number of people that MPD determined were killed in crashes that were “predominantly” caused by speeding (as opposed to drunk driving, failing to yield to pedestrians, and so forth)? Or do you just not think that there is a meaningful difference between the two? This was all hashed out here: https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/75/1247351.page#29088953, where multiple posters called you out. Please review it.

[Anonymous]

Even more reason to drive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be an assumption that drivers are always at fault. But that's not at all what the police say.

There were 35 traffic deaths in DC in 2022 (the most recent we have data). Of them, 12 were blamed on pedestrians, the police determined.

See page 24 of the police department's annual report: https://mpdc.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/mpdc/publication/attachments/AR_2022_lowres.pdf

It's just that one poster, who also says that the MPD are liars, that thinks everything is always the fault of cars.

No. You continuously misrepresent MPD’s analysis on here. Multiple posters have called you out on this over recent months and years. You ignore them and keep on misrepresenting. You are a despicable and dangerous individual.

No. It's just you and you're filled with bad faith.

Bad faith? Like claiming that a certain number of people have been killed by speeding drivers when that number actually represents the number of people that MPD determined were killed in crashes that were “predominantly” caused by speeding (as opposed to drunk driving, failing to yield to pedestrians, and so forth)? Or do you just not think that there is a meaningful difference between the two? This was all hashed out here: https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/75/1247351.page#29088953, where multiple posters called you out. Please review it.

MPD’s methodology in determining which factor is the “predominant” cause is a curiosity. Take an accident that most of us are now familiar with, the tragic collision between the regional jet and the helicopter at DCA a few weeks ago. What would be the predominant cause of this accident? That the helicopter was 100ft above the stipulated altitude, that the helicopter crew didn’t see the regional jet, that helicopter crew were wearing night-vision goggles, that the DCA tower was understaffed and the controller didn’t provide more guidance to the helicopter crew on the location of the regional jet, the use of an approach path that took jets right over the helicopter route, or something else? Picking a “predominant” cause among multiple factors - the removal of any one of which would have prevented the accident - is more than a little silly. MPD should really stop doing this, if they haven’t already.