angry 2nd grader - what intervention helped your kid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m disappointed but not surprised to see there’s only ineffective “gentle parenting” type advice on here, and that the ped also recommended non-evidence based approaches like play therapy.

In a word - discipline. You need a more clear cut disciplinary plan at home that uses very effective behavioral techniques. Find a behavioral therapist that specializes in approaches like PCIT.

This assumes that you’re talking about real disruptive behavior (hitting, swearing, throwing things). If he’s just grouchy and rude then the other advice may work.

PCIT is a "gentle parenting" technique that is not grounded in harsh discipline. PCIT generally explicitly involves "play therapy" in that parents are taught the techniques and then engage and practice them in play settings.

A lot of the advice being given on this thread actually applies the same concepts on which PCIT is based -- building coping skills to replace the negative behaviors and offering positive reinforcement for use of those skills and improving and reinforcing the parent-child attachment through emotional connection and active listening. PCIT also gets into co-regulation (parents modeling and helping regulate children's emotions by using positive and productive emotional regulation skills themselves).

It seems like you are upset that people aren't mentioning more "traditional" disciplinary methods but the modern evidence-based approach rejects a lot of these traditional methods because studies show they are ineffective. Spanking and any form of physical violence will do more harm than good. Time outs and ignoring can be used but need to be deployed in a specific way -- time outs are done primarily to give a child a chance to calm (and some kids will NOT calm in a time out so it won't work for them). Ignoring is something you have to be very careful with -- in PCIT they will talk about ignoring certain behaviors in order to not reward them with attention and thus giving more power to the positive behaviors you DO reward with attention. However totally ignoring the child and acting as though they do not exist as a form of punishment is considered very damaging and disruptive toward the parent-child attachment bond and will destroy a parent's ability to effectively address behavior in the future by breaking trust and affection.

No one in this thread has advocated for permissive parenting approaches. The conversation has focused on figuring out how to help a child develop productive emotional management skills as well as preventative techniques like addressing hunger and tiredness to minimize the chances that these disruptions occur in the first place. A number of posters have also talked about how reduction or even elimination of screen time has been beneficial.

So I really don't understand why you are dismissing it as "gentle parenting." Because people aren't talking about their kids derisively or discussing how effective it was for them to spank their kids or throw them out of the house or lock them in their room for hours. That's not good parenting and it also absolutely will not work in reducing violent and reactive behaviors longterm. Even if it successfully stops those behaviors in a small child then what the child learns is that as soon as he is big enough to use force then he too can hit people who are smaller than him or engage in violent and aggressive retribution for behaviors he doesn't like. Good luck with that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m disappointed but not surprised to see there’s only ineffective “gentle parenting” type advice on here, and that the ped also recommended non-evidence based approaches like play therapy.

In a word - discipline. You need a more clear cut disciplinary plan at home that uses very effective behavioral techniques. Find a behavioral therapist that specializes in approaches like PCIT.

This assumes that you’re talking about real disruptive behavior (hitting, swearing, throwing things). If he’s just grouchy and rude then the other advice may work.

My kid swore, hit, and threw things. This was how he was coping with negative emotions because he didn’t know how else to deal with them. “Discipline” did not work. Punishing and having consequences doesn’t help a child that doesn’t have the skills or experience to respond the way you want them to. You literally have to teach them. We went through a very rough phase and our child (who almost got kicked out of school) dramatically improved with therapy, screen limits, sleep, exercise, validation of negative emotions, and learning new ways to effectively cope with them.

The evidence based approach is positive reinforcement, but you need consequences for violent behaviors. BTDT. “Validation of negative emotions” doesn’t really work if your kid is actively trying to bite or punch you or another child.

It works in conjunction with teaching them what to do instead of biting or punching. Positive reinforcement comes when they do the things you taught them to do when they were angry instead of hitting. Once you validate their emotion, you will find a child willing to listen to what you have to teach.

You can’t validate an emotion right after a kid punches you. That’s absurd. Their emotion in that moment is “I want to hit you.”

No one has advocated for validating the emotions of a child who is hitting you. The "validation" approaches people have talked involve finding ways to talk about feelings with a child BEFORE the outburst in the hopes that giving a kid regular release valves for negative emotions will prevent the outbursts in the first place.

So: scheduling time every day for a child to tell you about their day (including anything negative that happened and being willing to validate those negative feelings so they feel heard) or providing a child with a journal or a way to express themselves in writing. No one is suggesting that you try and do this with a kid in the midst of a total meltdown. "Here Johnny -- take a break from hitting your brother to write your feelings in this journal and then we'll talk about them!" That would be idiotic and no one has suggested it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m disappointed but not surprised to see there’s only ineffective “gentle parenting” type advice on here, and that the ped also recommended non-evidence based approaches like play therapy.

In a word - discipline. You need a more clear cut disciplinary plan at home that uses very effective behavioral techniques. Find a behavioral therapist that specializes in approaches like PCIT.

This assumes that you’re talking about real disruptive behavior (hitting, swearing, throwing things). If he’s just grouchy and rude then the other advice may work.

PCIT is a "gentle parenting" technique that is not grounded in harsh discipline. PCIT generally explicitly involves "play therapy" in that parents are taught the techniques and then engage and practice them in play settings.

A lot of the advice being given on this thread actually applies the same concepts on which PCIT is based -- building coping skills to replace the negative behaviors and offering positive reinforcement for use of those skills and improving and reinforcing the parent-child attachment through emotional connection and active listening. PCIT also gets into co-regulation (parents modeling and helping regulate children's emotions by using positive and productive emotional regulation skills themselves).

It seems like you are upset that people aren't mentioning more "traditional" disciplinary methods but the modern evidence-based approach rejects a lot of these traditional methods because studies show they are ineffective. Spanking and any form of physical violence will do more harm than good. Time outs and ignoring can be used but need to be deployed in a specific way -- time outs are done primarily to give a child a chance to calm (and some kids will NOT calm in a time out so it won't work for them). Ignoring is something you have to be very careful with -- in PCIT they will talk about ignoring certain behaviors in order to not reward them with attention and thus giving more power to the positive behaviors you DO reward with attention. However totally ignoring the child and acting as though they do not exist as a form of punishment is considered very damaging and disruptive toward the parent-child attachment bond and will destroy a parent's ability to effectively address behavior in the future by breaking trust and affection.

No one in this thread has advocated for permissive parenting approaches. The conversation has focused on figuring out how to help a child develop productive emotional management skills as well as preventative techniques like addressing hunger and tiredness to minimize the chances that these disruptions occur in the first place. A number of posters have also talked about how reduction or even elimination of screen time has been beneficial.

So I really don't understand why you are dismissing it as "gentle parenting." Because people aren't talking about their kids derisively or discussing how effective it was for them to spank their kids or throw them out of the house or lock them in their room for hours. That's not good parenting and it also absolutely will not work in reducing violent and reactive behaviors longterm. Even if it successfully stops those behaviors in a small child then what the child learns is that as soon as he is big enough to use force then he too can hit people who are smaller than him or engage in violent and aggressive retribution for behaviors he doesn't like. Good luck with that.

I’m glad (truly) you understand what PCIT is - but what concerns me is that parents are not being advised to seek it out. It’s not the same as “play therapy” - it uses play in a really specific way that’s not intuitive (and that the parent administers.) And of course many gentle parenting “experts” vehemently object to time outs, which are a key part of PCIT.

As for “discipline” I do not mean physical or harsh, not at all. I mean it in terms of a consistent plan that is followed consistently. This discipline can be as hard for the parents as it is for the kids, which is when when you face an acute issue like child aggression, you benefit GREATLY from the structure provided by a psychologist actually trained in disruptive child behaviors. Not a “play therapist.” Not Dr Becky telling you time outs are bad. Not a “gentle parenting” blog telling you you just need to validate emotions.

Snacks and bedtime aren’t going to cut it either - although sometimes I have observed that families that cannot effectively address discipline are struggling in general with structure, so it’s possible that overall attention to structure might be needed. I’d guess though that the lack of structure is related to lack of parenting skills that are also needed to address the aggression - like not being able to effectively give your child commands to get ready for bed etc.

But it’s hard to tell without more information from OP. If a child has a real problem with aggression, you need help from the pros.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m disappointed but not surprised to see there’s only ineffective “gentle parenting” type advice on here, and that the ped also recommended non-evidence based approaches like play therapy.

In a word - discipline. You need a more clear cut disciplinary plan at home that uses very effective behavioral techniques. Find a behavioral therapist that specializes in approaches like PCIT.

This assumes that you’re talking about real disruptive behavior (hitting, swearing, throwing things). If he’s just grouchy and rude then the other advice may work.

PCIT is a "gentle parenting" technique that is not grounded in harsh discipline. PCIT generally explicitly involves "play therapy" in that parents are taught the techniques and then engage and practice them in play settings.

A lot of the advice being given on this thread actually applies the same concepts on which PCIT is based -- building coping skills to replace the negative behaviors and offering positive reinforcement for use of those skills and improving and reinforcing the parent-child attachment through emotional connection and active listening. PCIT also gets into co-regulation (parents modeling and helping regulate children's emotions by using positive and productive emotional regulation skills themselves).

It seems like you are upset that people aren't mentioning more "traditional" disciplinary methods but the modern evidence-based approach rejects a lot of these traditional methods because studies show they are ineffective. Spanking and any form of physical violence will do more harm than good. Time outs and ignoring can be used but need to be deployed in a specific way -- time outs are done primarily to give a child a chance to calm (and some kids will NOT calm in a time out so it won't work for them). Ignoring is something you have to be very careful with -- in PCIT they will talk about ignoring certain behaviors in order to not reward them with attention and thus giving more power to the positive behaviors you DO reward with attention. However totally ignoring the child and acting as though they do not exist as a form of punishment is considered very damaging and disruptive toward the parent-child attachment bond and will destroy a parent's ability to effectively address behavior in the future by breaking trust and affection.

No one in this thread has advocated for permissive parenting approaches. The conversation has focused on figuring out how to help a child develop productive emotional management skills as well as preventative techniques like addressing hunger and tiredness to minimize the chances that these disruptions occur in the first place. A number of posters have also talked about how reduction or even elimination of screen time has been beneficial.

So I really don't understand why you are dismissing it as "gentle parenting." Because people aren't talking about their kids derisively or discussing how effective it was for them to spank their kids or throw them out of the house or lock them in their room for hours. That's not good parenting and it also absolutely will not work in reducing violent and reactive behaviors longterm. Even if it successfully stops those behaviors in a small child then what the child learns is that as soon as he is big enough to use force then he too can hit people who are smaller than him or engage in violent and aggressive retribution for behaviors he doesn't like. Good luck with that.

I’m glad (truly) you understand what PCIT is - but what concerns me is that parents are not being advised to seek it out. It’s not the same as “play therapy” - it uses play in a really specific way that’s not intuitive (and that the parent administers.) And of course many gentle parenting “experts” vehemently object to time outs, which are a key part of PCIT.

As for “discipline” I do not mean physical or harsh, not at all. I mean it in terms of a consistent plan that is followed consistently. This discipline can be as hard for the parents as it is for the kids, which is when when you face an acute issue like child aggression, you benefit GREATLY from the structure provided by a psychologist actually trained in disruptive child behaviors. Not a “play therapist.” Not Dr Becky telling you time outs are bad. Not a “gentle parenting” blog telling you you just need to validate emotions.

Snacks and bedtime aren’t going to cut it either - although sometimes I have observed that families that cannot effectively address discipline are struggling in general with structure, so it’s possible that overall attention to structure might be needed. I’d guess though that the lack of structure is related to lack of parenting skills that are also needed to address the aggression - like not being able to effectively give your child commands to get ready for bed etc.

But it’s hard to tell without more information from OP. If a child has a real problem with aggression, you need help from the pros.

You could have suggested PCIT without derisively (and ignorantly) criticizing all the other very sound advice that has been offered on the thread. And that would have solved the problem you perceive of parents not being told to seek out PCIT enough.

You are also getting mad that OP (a total stranger to you) has not provided you with enough detail to decide whether they need a bigger intervention or not. Well that's not OP's job. This is an anonymous website and OP asked for ideas and advice. People shared what worked for them (including a ton of advice that absolutely embraces a lot of the concepts from PCIT and that are commonly offered on -- gasp -- accounts like Dr. Becky which you are dismissing but are actually incredibly useful for parents). You are more than welcome to say "hey depending on how severe the aggressive behavior is you might really benefit from a more structured therapeutic approach like PCIT -- here's a practitioner I like" or "here is some info about it if you are interested."

By the way multiple people on this thread have recommended the book The Explosive Child by Dr. Ross Greene. If you haven't read it I suggest you do -- perhaps you would dismiss it as more "gentle parenting" but it embraces a lot of the concepts discussed on this thread AND I've see it recommended by therapists who specialize in PCIT.

But by all means do go on about how no one but you knows how to address this kind of child behavioral issue and all the "gentle parenting" is ruining the children or whatever. Because lord knows we don't get enough of that on this website.

[Anonymous]

Please suggest some practitioners in nOVA trained in PCIT. We have not been successful in identifying those in the past. Finding the right help is a hurdle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m disappointed but not surprised to see there’s only ineffective “gentle parenting” type advice on here, and that the ped also recommended non-evidence based approaches like play therapy.

In a word - discipline. You need a more clear cut disciplinary plan at home that uses very effective behavioral techniques. Find a behavioral therapist that specializes in approaches like PCIT.

This assumes that you’re talking about real disruptive behavior (hitting, swearing, throwing things). If he’s just grouchy and rude then the other advice may work.

PCIT is a "gentle parenting" technique that is not grounded in harsh discipline. PCIT generally explicitly involves "play therapy" in that parents are taught the techniques and then engage and practice them in play settings.

A lot of the advice being given on this thread actually applies the same concepts on which PCIT is based -- building coping skills to replace the negative behaviors and offering positive reinforcement for use of those skills and improving and reinforcing the parent-child attachment through emotional connection and active listening. PCIT also gets into co-regulation (parents modeling and helping regulate children's emotions by using positive and productive emotional regulation skills themselves).

It seems like you are upset that people aren't mentioning more "traditional" disciplinary methods but the modern evidence-based approach rejects a lot of these traditional methods because studies show they are ineffective. Spanking and any form of physical violence will do more harm than good. Time outs and ignoring can be used but need to be deployed in a specific way -- time outs are done primarily to give a child a chance to calm (and some kids will NOT calm in a time out so it won't work for them). Ignoring is something you have to be very careful with -- in PCIT they will talk about ignoring certain behaviors in order to not reward them with attention and thus giving more power to the positive behaviors you DO reward with attention. However totally ignoring the child and acting as though they do not exist as a form of punishment is considered very damaging and disruptive toward the parent-child attachment bond and will destroy a parent's ability to effectively address behavior in the future by breaking trust and affection.

No one in this thread has advocated for permissive parenting approaches. The conversation has focused on figuring out how to help a child develop productive emotional management skills as well as preventative techniques like addressing hunger and tiredness to minimize the chances that these disruptions occur in the first place. A number of posters have also talked about how reduction or even elimination of screen time has been beneficial.

So I really don't understand why you are dismissing it as "gentle parenting." Because people aren't talking about their kids derisively or discussing how effective it was for them to spank their kids or throw them out of the house or lock them in their room for hours. That's not good parenting and it also absolutely will not work in reducing violent and reactive behaviors longterm. Even if it successfully stops those behaviors in a small child then what the child learns is that as soon as he is big enough to use force then he too can hit people who are smaller than him or engage in violent and aggressive retribution for behaviors he doesn't like. Good luck with that.

I’m glad (truly) you understand what PCIT is - but what concerns me is that parents are not being advised to seek it out. It’s not the same as “play therapy” - it uses play in a really specific way that’s not intuitive (and that the parent administers.) And of course many gentle parenting “experts” vehemently object to time outs, which are a key part of PCIT.

As for “discipline” I do not mean physical or harsh, not at all. I mean it in terms of a consistent plan that is followed consistently. This discipline can be as hard for the parents as it is for the kids, which is when when you face an acute issue like child aggression, you benefit GREATLY from the structure provided by a psychologist actually trained in disruptive child behaviors. Not a “play therapist.” Not Dr Becky telling you time outs are bad. Not a “gentle parenting” blog telling you you just need to validate emotions.

Snacks and bedtime aren’t going to cut it either - although sometimes I have observed that families that cannot effectively address discipline are struggling in general with structure, so it’s possible that overall attention to structure might be needed. I’d guess though that the lack of structure is related to lack of parenting skills that are also needed to address the aggression - like not being able to effectively give your child commands to get ready for bed etc.

But it’s hard to tell without more information from OP. If a child has a real problem with aggression, you need help from the pros.

You could have suggested PCIT without derisively (and ignorantly) criticizing all the other very sound advice that has been offered on the thread. And that would have solved the problem you perceive of parents not being told to seek out PCIT enough.

You are also getting mad that OP (a total stranger to you) has not provided you with enough detail to decide whether they need a bigger intervention or not. Well that's not OP's job. This is an anonymous website and OP asked for ideas and advice. People shared what worked for them (including a ton of advice that absolutely embraces a lot of the concepts from PCIT and that are commonly offered on -- gasp -- accounts like Dr. Becky which you are dismissing but are actually incredibly useful for parents). You are more than welcome to say "hey depending on how severe the aggressive behavior is you might really benefit from a more structured therapeutic approach like PCIT -- here's a practitioner I like" or "here is some info about it if you are interested."

By the way multiple people on this thread have recommended the book The Explosive Child by Dr. Ross Greene. If you haven't read it I suggest you do -- perhaps you would dismiss it as more "gentle parenting" but it embraces a lot of the concepts discussed on this thread AND I've see it recommended by therapists who specialize in PCIT.

But by all means do go on about how no one but you knows how to address this kind of child behavioral issue and all the "gentle parenting" is ruining the children or whatever. Because lord knows we don't get enough of that on this website.

Oh just cut it out. There are far too many bad therapists out there willing to take money for pointless OT, play therapy, and the like - I’m never going to apologize for pointing out that most of what passes for parenting advice and therapy (even from pediatricians) is useless and often unconscionably expensive for families.

Not a huge fan of Ross Greene because he doesn’t explain how you actually build skills. When a kid has out of control behaviors, you need to target those first through well studied behavioral approaches.

Dr Becky is adamantly against time outs AND rewards, so I’m not sure how you can say she has anything to do with competent mainstream behavioral therapy.

Dr Becky and Ross Greene are fine if you have small problems. For big problems you need a behavioral psychologist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Please suggest some practitioners in nOVA trained in PCIT. We have not been successful in identifying those in the past. Finding the right help is a hurdle.

I don’t know about NOVA but if you can drive into DC: https://www.washingtonanxietycenter.com/adapted-parent-child-interaction-therapy-pcit.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please suggest some practitioners in nOVA trained in PCIT. We have not been successful in identifying those in the past. Finding the right help is a hurdle.

I don’t know about NOVA but if you can drive into DC: https://www.washingtonanxietycenter.com/adapted-parent-child-interaction-therapy-pcit.html

Also try searching for “parent management training.” That’s not fully PCIT but uses some of the same ideas. Here’s one I found in Maclean:
https://changeanxiety.com/who-we-work-with/parents-families-couples/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m disappointed but not surprised to see there’s only ineffective “gentle parenting” type advice on here, and that the ped also recommended non-evidence based approaches like play therapy.

In a word - discipline. You need a more clear cut disciplinary plan at home that uses very effective behavioral techniques. Find a behavioral therapist that specializes in approaches like PCIT.

This assumes that you’re talking about real disruptive behavior (hitting, swearing, throwing things). If he’s just grouchy and rude then the other advice may work.

PCIT is a "gentle parenting" technique that is not grounded in harsh discipline. PCIT generally explicitly involves "play therapy" in that parents are taught the techniques and then engage and practice them in play settings.

A lot of the advice being given on this thread actually applies the same concepts on which PCIT is based -- building coping skills to replace the negative behaviors and offering positive reinforcement for use of those skills and improving and reinforcing the parent-child attachment through emotional connection and active listening. PCIT also gets into co-regulation (parents modeling and helping regulate children's emotions by using positive and productive emotional regulation skills themselves).

It seems like you are upset that people aren't mentioning more "traditional" disciplinary methods but the modern evidence-based approach rejects a lot of these traditional methods because studies show they are ineffective. Spanking and any form of physical violence will do more harm than good. Time outs and ignoring can be used but need to be deployed in a specific way -- time outs are done primarily to give a child a chance to calm (and some kids will NOT calm in a time out so it won't work for them). Ignoring is something you have to be very careful with -- in PCIT they will talk about ignoring certain behaviors in order to not reward them with attention and thus giving more power to the positive behaviors you DO reward with attention. However totally ignoring the child and acting as though they do not exist as a form of punishment is considered very damaging and disruptive toward the parent-child attachment bond and will destroy a parent's ability to effectively address behavior in the future by breaking trust and affection.

No one in this thread has advocated for permissive parenting approaches. The conversation has focused on figuring out how to help a child develop productive emotional management skills as well as preventative techniques like addressing hunger and tiredness to minimize the chances that these disruptions occur in the first place. A number of posters have also talked about how reduction or even elimination of screen time has been beneficial.

So I really don't understand why you are dismissing it as "gentle parenting." Because people aren't talking about their kids derisively or discussing how effective it was for them to spank their kids or throw them out of the house or lock them in their room for hours. That's not good parenting and it also absolutely will not work in reducing violent and reactive behaviors longterm. Even if it successfully stops those behaviors in a small child then what the child learns is that as soon as he is big enough to use force then he too can hit people who are smaller than him or engage in violent and aggressive retribution for behaviors he doesn't like. Good luck with that.

I’m glad (truly) you understand what PCIT is - but what concerns me is that parents are not being advised to seek it out. It’s not the same as “play therapy” - it uses play in a really specific way that’s not intuitive (and that the parent administers.) And of course many gentle parenting “experts” vehemently object to time outs, which are a key part of PCIT.

As for “discipline” I do not mean physical or harsh, not at all. I mean it in terms of a consistent plan that is followed consistently. This discipline can be as hard for the parents as it is for the kids, which is when when you face an acute issue like child aggression, you benefit GREATLY from the structure provided by a psychologist actually trained in disruptive child behaviors. Not a “play therapist.” Not Dr Becky telling you time outs are bad. Not a “gentle parenting” blog telling you you just need to validate emotions.

Snacks and bedtime aren’t going to cut it either - although sometimes I have observed that families that cannot effectively address discipline are struggling in general with structure, so it’s possible that overall attention to structure might be needed. I’d guess though that the lack of structure is related to lack of parenting skills that are also needed to address the aggression - like not being able to effectively give your child commands to get ready for bed etc.

But it’s hard to tell without more information from OP. If a child has a real problem with aggression, you need help from the pros.

You could have suggested PCIT without derisively (and ignorantly) criticizing all the other very sound advice that has been offered on the thread. And that would have solved the problem you perceive of parents not being told to seek out PCIT enough.

You are also getting mad that OP (a total stranger to you) has not provided you with enough detail to decide whether they need a bigger intervention or not. Well that's not OP's job. This is an anonymous website and OP asked for ideas and advice. People shared what worked for them (including a ton of advice that absolutely embraces a lot of the concepts from PCIT and that are commonly offered on -- gasp -- accounts like Dr. Becky which you are dismissing but are actually incredibly useful for parents). You are more than welcome to say "hey depending on how severe the aggressive behavior is you might really benefit from a more structured therapeutic approach like PCIT -- here's a practitioner I like" or "here is some info about it if you are interested."

By the way multiple people on this thread have recommended the book The Explosive Child by Dr. Ross Greene. If you haven't read it I suggest you do -- perhaps you would dismiss it as more "gentle parenting" but it embraces a lot of the concepts discussed on this thread AND I've see it recommended by therapists who specialize in PCIT.

But by all means do go on about how no one but you knows how to address this kind of child behavioral issue and all the "gentle parenting" is ruining the children or whatever. Because lord knows we don't get enough of that on this website.

Oh just cut it out. There are far too many bad therapists out there willing to take money for pointless OT, play therapy, and the like - I’m never going to apologize for pointing out that most of what passes for parenting advice and therapy (even from pediatricians) is useless and often unconscionably expensive for families.

Not a huge fan of Ross Greene because he doesn’t explain how you actually build skills. When a kid has out of control behaviors, you need to target those first through well studied behavioral approaches.

Dr Becky is adamantly against time outs AND rewards, so I’m not sure how you can say she has anything to do with competent mainstream behavioral therapy.

Dr Becky and Ross Greene are fine if you have small problems. For big problems you need a behavioral psychologist.

Dr Becky and Ross Greene have worked great for me. I think fewer kids have "big problems" than you might think. Both of those people but especially Dr Becky aim their guidance at people with typical kids.

It makes sense for someone to first start with these suggestions and if they don't work for them to pursue something more drastic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m disappointed but not surprised to see there’s only ineffective “gentle parenting” type advice on here, and that the ped also recommended non-evidence based approaches like play therapy.

In a word - discipline. You need a more clear cut disciplinary plan at home that uses very effective behavioral techniques. Find a behavioral therapist that specializes in approaches like PCIT.

This assumes that you’re talking about real disruptive behavior (hitting, swearing, throwing things). If he’s just grouchy and rude then the other advice may work.

My kid swore, hit, and threw things. This was how he was coping with negative emotions because he didn’t know how else to deal with them. “Discipline” did not work. Punishing and having consequences doesn’t help a child that doesn’t have the skills or experience to respond the way you want them to. You literally have to teach them. We went through a very rough phase and our child (who almost got kicked out of school) dramatically improved with therapy, screen limits, sleep, exercise, validation of negative emotions, and learning new ways to effectively cope with them.

The evidence based approach is positive reinforcement, but you need consequences for violent behaviors. BTDT. “Validation of negative emotions” doesn’t really work if your kid is actively trying to bite or punch you or another child.

It works in conjunction with teaching them what to do instead of biting or punching. Positive reinforcement comes when they do the things you taught them to do when they were angry instead of hitting. Once you validate their emotion, you will find a child willing to listen to what you have to teach.

You can’t validate an emotion right after a kid punches you. That’s absurd. Their emotion in that moment is “I want to hit you.”

No. Their emotion is anger or frustration which can be validated but with clear and firm language that hitting is not an acceptable way to cope with anger. You redirect the child to what to do instead when angry - time alone, deep breaths, and exercise. My kid now plays hockey in the driveway when he gets frustrated or angry. He works out his aggression on a puck, not a person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m disappointed but not surprised to see there’s only ineffective “gentle parenting” type advice on here, and that the ped also recommended non-evidence based approaches like play therapy.

In a word - discipline. You need a more clear cut disciplinary plan at home that uses very effective behavioral techniques. Find a behavioral therapist that specializes in approaches like PCIT.

This assumes that you’re talking about real disruptive behavior (hitting, swearing, throwing things). If he’s just grouchy and rude then the other advice may work.

My kid swore, hit, and threw things. This was how he was coping with negative emotions because he didn’t know how else to deal with them. “Discipline” did not work. Punishing and having consequences doesn’t help a child that doesn’t have the skills or experience to respond the way you want them to. You literally have to teach them. We went through a very rough phase and our child (who almost got kicked out of school) dramatically improved with therapy, screen limits, sleep, exercise, validation of negative emotions, and learning new ways to effectively cope with them.

The evidence based approach is positive reinforcement, but you need consequences for violent behaviors. BTDT. “Validation of negative emotions” doesn’t really work if your kid is actively trying to bite or punch you or another child.

It works in conjunction with teaching them what to do instead of biting or punching. Positive reinforcement comes when they do the things you taught them to do when they were angry instead of hitting. Once you validate their emotion, you will find a child willing to listen to what you have to teach.

You can’t validate an emotion right after a kid punches you. That’s absurd. Their emotion in that moment is “I want to hit you.”

No. Their emotion is anger or frustration which can be validated but with clear and firm language that hitting is not an acceptable way to cope with anger. You redirect the child to what to do instead when angry - time alone, deep breaths, and exercise. My kid now plays hockey in the driveway when he gets frustrated or angry. He works out his aggression on a puck, not a person.

Yeah I have never had a problem telling my kid "I get why you are upset but hitting is not an option" and then bodily preventing her from trying to hit or kick.

I will say I have a smaller kid so even in 2nd grade it would not be hard to physically restrain her if she was acting out in that way. Also by 2nd grade she was very unlikely to hit or bite. So I could see with a bigger or older kid where that's not going to work and frankly I don't know what the solution is in that situation. I have a nephew who is a big kid and he definitely had some issues with anger and aggression when he was younger but my brother and SIL used this same approach and the behavior ended before he got so big that they couldn't handle it. I think if he'd gotten older before it got better they would have had to work with a professional for sure. But it didn't come to that and I think that's partly because they knew they needed to figure it out before he got big enough where he could really hurt someone. It's motivating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m disappointed but not surprised to see there’s only ineffective “gentle parenting” type advice on here, and that the ped also recommended non-evidence based approaches like play therapy.

In a word - discipline. You need a more clear cut disciplinary plan at home that uses very effective behavioral techniques. Find a behavioral therapist that specializes in approaches like PCIT.

This assumes that you’re talking about real disruptive behavior (hitting, swearing, throwing things). If he’s just grouchy and rude then the other advice may work.

PCIT is a "gentle parenting" technique that is not grounded in harsh discipline. PCIT generally explicitly involves "play therapy" in that parents are taught the techniques and then engage and practice them in play settings.

A lot of the advice being given on this thread actually applies the same concepts on which PCIT is based -- building coping skills to replace the negative behaviors and offering positive reinforcement for use of those skills and improving and reinforcing the parent-child attachment through emotional connection and active listening. PCIT also gets into co-regulation (parents modeling and helping regulate children's emotions by using positive and productive emotional regulation skills themselves).

It seems like you are upset that people aren't mentioning more "traditional" disciplinary methods but the modern evidence-based approach rejects a lot of these traditional methods because studies show they are ineffective. Spanking and any form of physical violence will do more harm than good. Time outs and ignoring can be used but need to be deployed in a specific way -- time outs are done primarily to give a child a chance to calm (and some kids will NOT calm in a time out so it won't work for them). Ignoring is something you have to be very careful with -- in PCIT they will talk about ignoring certain behaviors in order to not reward them with attention and thus giving more power to the positive behaviors you DO reward with attention. However totally ignoring the child and acting as though they do not exist as a form of punishment is considered very damaging and disruptive toward the parent-child attachment bond and will destroy a parent's ability to effectively address behavior in the future by breaking trust and affection.

No one in this thread has advocated for permissive parenting approaches. The conversation has focused on figuring out how to help a child develop productive emotional management skills as well as preventative techniques like addressing hunger and tiredness to minimize the chances that these disruptions occur in the first place. A number of posters have also talked about how reduction or even elimination of screen time has been beneficial.

So I really don't understand why you are dismissing it as "gentle parenting." Because people aren't talking about their kids derisively or discussing how effective it was for them to spank their kids or throw them out of the house or lock them in their room for hours. That's not good parenting and it also absolutely will not work in reducing violent and reactive behaviors longterm. Even if it successfully stops those behaviors in a small child then what the child learns is that as soon as he is big enough to use force then he too can hit people who are smaller than him or engage in violent and aggressive retribution for behaviors he doesn't like. Good luck with that.

I’m glad (truly) you understand what PCIT is - but what concerns me is that parents are not being advised to seek it out. It’s not the same as “play therapy” - it uses play in a really specific way that’s not intuitive (and that the parent administers.) And of course many gentle parenting “experts” vehemently object to time outs, which are a key part of PCIT.

As for “discipline” I do not mean physical or harsh, not at all. I mean it in terms of a consistent plan that is followed consistently. This discipline can be as hard for the parents as it is for the kids, which is when when you face an acute issue like child aggression, you benefit GREATLY from the structure provided by a psychologist actually trained in disruptive child behaviors. Not a “play therapist.” Not Dr Becky telling you time outs are bad. Not a “gentle parenting” blog telling you you just need to validate emotions.

Snacks and bedtime aren’t going to cut it either - although sometimes I have observed that families that cannot effectively address discipline are struggling in general with structure, so it’s possible that overall attention to structure might be needed. I’d guess though that the lack of structure is related to lack of parenting skills that are also needed to address the aggression - like not being able to effectively give your child commands to get ready for bed etc.

But it’s hard to tell without more information from OP. If a child has a real problem with aggression, you need help from the pros.

You could have suggested PCIT without derisively (and ignorantly) criticizing all the other very sound advice that has been offered on the thread. And that would have solved the problem you perceive of parents not being told to seek out PCIT enough.

You are also getting mad that OP (a total stranger to you) has not provided you with enough detail to decide whether they need a bigger intervention or not. Well that's not OP's job. This is an anonymous website and OP asked for ideas and advice. People shared what worked for them (including a ton of advice that absolutely embraces a lot of the concepts from PCIT and that are commonly offered on -- gasp -- accounts like Dr. Becky which you are dismissing but are actually incredibly useful for parents). You are more than welcome to say "hey depending on how severe the aggressive behavior is you might really benefit from a more structured therapeutic approach like PCIT -- here's a practitioner I like" or "here is some info about it if you are interested."

By the way multiple people on this thread have recommended the book The Explosive Child by Dr. Ross Greene. If you haven't read it I suggest you do -- perhaps you would dismiss it as more "gentle parenting" but it embraces a lot of the concepts discussed on this thread AND I've see it recommended by therapists who specialize in PCIT.

But by all means do go on about how no one but you knows how to address this kind of child behavioral issue and all the "gentle parenting" is ruining the children or whatever. Because lord knows we don't get enough of that on this website.

Oh just cut it out. There are far too many bad therapists out there willing to take money for pointless OT, play therapy, and the like - I’m never going to apologize for pointing out that most of what passes for parenting advice and therapy (even from pediatricians) is useless and often unconscionably expensive for families.

Not a huge fan of Ross Greene because he doesn’t explain how you actually build skills. When a kid has out of control behaviors, you need to target those first through well studied behavioral approaches.

Dr Becky is adamantly against time outs AND rewards, so I’m not sure how you can say she has anything to do with competent mainstream behavioral therapy.

Dr Becky and Ross Greene are fine if you have small problems. For big problems you need a behavioral psychologist.

Dr Becky and Ross Greene have worked great for me. I think fewer kids have "big problems" than you might think. Both of those people but especially Dr Becky aim their guidance at people with typical kids.

It makes sense for someone to first start with these suggestions and if they don't work for them to pursue something more drastic.

Sure, I hope that’s the case (for everyone!)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m disappointed but not surprised to see there’s only ineffective “gentle parenting” type advice on here, and that the ped also recommended non-evidence based approaches like play therapy.

In a word - discipline. You need a more clear cut disciplinary plan at home that uses very effective behavioral techniques. Find a behavioral therapist that specializes in approaches like PCIT.

This assumes that you’re talking about real disruptive behavior (hitting, swearing, throwing things). If he’s just grouchy and rude then the other advice may work.

My kid swore, hit, and threw things. This was how he was coping with negative emotions because he didn’t know how else to deal with them. “Discipline” did not work. Punishing and having consequences doesn’t help a child that doesn’t have the skills or experience to respond the way you want them to. You literally have to teach them. We went through a very rough phase and our child (who almost got kicked out of school) dramatically improved with therapy, screen limits, sleep, exercise, validation of negative emotions, and learning new ways to effectively cope with them.

The evidence based approach is positive reinforcement, but you need consequences for violent behaviors. BTDT. “Validation of negative emotions” doesn’t really work if your kid is actively trying to bite or punch you or another child.

It works in conjunction with teaching them what to do instead of biting or punching. Positive reinforcement comes when they do the things you taught them to do when they were angry instead of hitting. Once you validate their emotion, you will find a child willing to listen to what you have to teach.

You can’t validate an emotion right after a kid punches you. That’s absurd. Their emotion in that moment is “I want to hit you.”

No. Their emotion is anger or frustration which can be validated but with clear and firm language that hitting is not an acceptable way to cope with anger. You redirect the child to what to do instead when angry - time alone, deep breaths, and exercise. My kid now plays hockey in the driveway when he gets frustrated or angry. He works out his aggression on a puck, not a person.

“working out aggression” on a physical object or is a nice idea for a parenting blog but actual research shows it does not work for aggression. my guess that playing hockey seems to help due to focus, breathing, movement and just the change of location.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272735824000357

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m disappointed but not surprised to see there’s only ineffective “gentle parenting” type advice on here, and that the ped also recommended non-evidence based approaches like play therapy.

In a word - discipline. You need a more clear cut disciplinary plan at home that uses very effective behavioral techniques. Find a behavioral therapist that specializes in approaches like PCIT.

This assumes that you’re talking about real disruptive behavior (hitting, swearing, throwing things). If he’s just grouchy and rude then the other advice may work.

My kid swore, hit, and threw things. This was how he was coping with negative emotions because he didn’t know how else to deal with them. “Discipline” did not work. Punishing and having consequences doesn’t help a child that doesn’t have the skills or experience to respond the way you want them to. You literally have to teach them. We went through a very rough phase and our child (who almost got kicked out of school) dramatically improved with therapy, screen limits, sleep, exercise, validation of negative emotions, and learning new ways to effectively cope with them.

The evidence based approach is positive reinforcement, but you need consequences for violent behaviors. BTDT. “Validation of negative emotions” doesn’t really work if your kid is actively trying to bite or punch you or another child.

It works in conjunction with teaching them what to do instead of biting or punching. Positive reinforcement comes when they do the things you taught them to do when they were angry instead of hitting. Once you validate their emotion, you will find a child willing to listen to what you have to teach.

You can’t validate an emotion right after a kid punches you. That’s absurd. Their emotion in that moment is “I want to hit you.”

No. Their emotion is anger or frustration which can be validated but with clear and firm language that hitting is not an acceptable way to cope with anger. You redirect the child to what to do instead when angry - time alone, deep breaths, and exercise. My kid now plays hockey in the driveway when he gets frustrated or angry. He works out his aggression on a puck, not a person.

Yeah I have never had a problem telling my kid "I get why you are upset but hitting is not an option" and then bodily preventing her from trying to hit or kick.

I will say I have a smaller kid so even in 2nd grade it would not be hard to physically restrain her if she was acting out in that way. Also by 2nd grade she was very unlikely to hit or bite. So I could see with a bigger or older kid where that's not going to work and frankly I don't know what the solution is in that situation. I have a nephew who is a big kid and he definitely had some issues with anger and aggression when he was younger but my brother and SIL used this same approach and the behavior ended before he got so big that they couldn't handle it. I think if he'd gotten older before it got better they would have had to work with a professional for sure. But it didn't come to that and I think that's partly because they knew they needed to figure it out before he got big enough where he could really hurt someone. It's motivating.

yes the size of the kid matters. I was a little confused when our therapist said “it’s good you’re here early at this age” - my DS was 6 and it seemed late to me! but she was absolutely right. I can’t imagine letting aggressive behavior go until the kid is too big to control physically.

I think one thing that ended up helping was that I personally have no tolerance for being hit (even by my beloved child). So when my kid started to hit me, I was extremely motivated to stop it and didn’t tolerate it. Unfortunately in some families with a parent like me, what ends up happening is harsh punishment (including escalating beatings). PCIT was created to interrupt that cycle by teaching more effective and non-violent discipline.

On the other end of the scale, I’ve definitely seen permissive moms who don’t seem to care when their child hits them. Well they care but don’t seem to have the personal boundaries to really make it stop. It’s probably a better reaction than becoming abusive; but it’s not pretty to see an 8 yr old whaling on his mom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m disappointed but not surprised to see there’s only ineffective “gentle parenting” type advice on here, and that the ped also recommended non-evidence based approaches like play therapy.

In a word - discipline. You need a more clear cut disciplinary plan at home that uses very effective behavioral techniques. Find a behavioral therapist that specializes in approaches like PCIT.

This assumes that you’re talking about real disruptive behavior (hitting, swearing, throwing things). If he’s just grouchy and rude then the other advice may work.

My kid swore, hit, and threw things. This was how he was coping with negative emotions because he didn’t know how else to deal with them. “Discipline” did not work. Punishing and having consequences doesn’t help a child that doesn’t have the skills or experience to respond the way you want them to. You literally have to teach them. We went through a very rough phase and our child (who almost got kicked out of school) dramatically improved with therapy, screen limits, sleep, exercise, validation of negative emotions, and learning new ways to effectively cope with them.

The evidence based approach is positive reinforcement, but you need consequences for violent behaviors. BTDT. “Validation of negative emotions” doesn’t really work if your kid is actively trying to bite or punch you or another child.

It works in conjunction with teaching them what to do instead of biting or punching. Positive reinforcement comes when they do the things you taught them to do when they were angry instead of hitting. Once you validate their emotion, you will find a child willing to listen to what you have to teach.

You can’t validate an emotion right after a kid punches you. That’s absurd. Their emotion in that moment is “I want to hit you.”

No. Their emotion is anger or frustration which can be validated but with clear and firm language that hitting is not an acceptable way to cope with anger. You redirect the child to what to do instead when angry - time alone, deep breaths, and exercise. My kid now plays hockey in the driveway when he gets frustrated or angry. He works out his aggression on a puck, not a person.

“working out aggression” on a physical object or is a nice idea for a parenting blog but actual research shows it does not work for aggression. my guess that playing hockey seems to help due to focus, breathing, movement and just the change of location.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272735824000357

(Oh - I took a closer look at that article and it seems to substantiate that ball sports help! Makes a lot of sense.)