Brown reinstating SATs/ACT requirements

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My Senior kicked butt on standardized tests...of course, it's the year after him they come back.

Same here, but his grades were mediocre. Based on his outcomes, I think colleges have already started implementing Test-preferred policies.

I am so annoyed by these uninformed posts. You have no understanding of why they are reinstating. It's not so kids who "kick butt" on standardized tests can get in over others who people like you perceive of unworthy because they have a lower score. It's so people who do really well (1350+) submit their scores and show schools that they are capable of doing the work, despite a crappy education. This is not to let more 1600 students over potential 1400 students. Those of you with the high scores are actually at an even great disadvantage with test required. I can't believe how obtuse you all are to not understand this.

That's also simplistic. I think the test requirement will likely help two groups - (1) students from underprivileged schools/backgrounds who score relatively high (but not in the 35+/1500+ range), especially compared to the average score at their school and (2) students with a privileged background (private school, socioeconomic status) who score extremely high but were competing with TO privileged applicants from their own school.

100% further distinguishes them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:colleges will start making announcements for class of 2026 soon to give current sophomores plenty of time to prep.

Current juniors will be the last class to have real test optional options.

Brown and Dartmouth are implementing them for class of 2029 (currently juniors)...no options there. At least Yale offers flexibility on the types of tests accepted.

HS class of 2025 should be exempted from these requirements giving the timing of the announcements.

[Anonymous]

As someone in data analytics in the educational space, test scores are an incredible data point.

TO was meant for those who couldn't access the test during covid and for the most part, access has not only been restored to pre-pandemic numbers, but has increased due to accessible technology.

Would love to see a nationwide SAT voucher program for those who qualify for school lunches etc, because AGAIN, the data doesn't lie!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From the email:

Brown will continue to offer its Early Decision option, which is attractive to prospective students and has contributed to efforts to enroll an undergraduate class that is both highly qualified and diverse.

Starting with next year’s application cycle (effective for the Class of 2029), Brown will reinstate the requirement that applicants for first-year admission submit standardized tests scores (the SAT or ACT, except in the rare circumstance when these tests are not available to a student). This will accompany enhanced communications to students and school counselors emphasizing that test scores are interpreted in the context of a student’s background and educational opportunities.

Current practices for applicants with family connections — including “legacies” and children of faculty and staff — will remain unchanged while we continue to consider a range of complex questions raised by the committee and seek more input from our community.

Have no issue with them doing it but very later notification since most who are planning on taking it already signed up. No open slots by us testing unless you drive 2+ hours - (not CA) - would only have the potential August slot open- they have half the amount of locations they had in the past since not as many students are taking it.

Not a lot of time for kids to now study with AP tests etc.

People take these tests in senior year all the time. That is the norm in this country. Not too late at all to sign up if you are in 11th now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My Senior kicked butt on standardized tests...of course, it's the year after him they come back.

Same here, but his grades were mediocre. Based on his outcomes, I think colleges have already started implementing Test-preferred policies.

I am so annoyed by these uninformed posts. You have no understanding of why they are reinstating. It's not so kids who "kick butt" on standardized tests can get in over others who people like you perceive of unworthy because they have a lower score. It's so people who do really well (1350+) submit their scores and show schools that they are capable of doing the work, despite a crappy education. This is not to let more 1600 students over potential 1400 students. Those of you with the high scores are actually at an even great disadvantage with test required. I can't believe how obtuse you all are to not understand this.

That's also simplistic. I think the test requirement will likely help two groups - (1) students from underprivileged schools/backgrounds who score relatively high (but not in the 35+/1500+ range), especially compared to the average score at their school and (2) students with a privileged background (private school, socioeconomic status) who score extremely high but were competing with TO privileged applicants from their own school.

This is accurate. But Brown's motivation for going back to test-required is the first category and not the second.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From the email:

Brown will continue to offer its Early Decision option, which is attractive to prospective students and has contributed to efforts to enroll an undergraduate class that is both highly qualified and diverse.

Starting with next year’s application cycle (effective for the Class of 2029), Brown will reinstate the requirement that applicants for first-year admission submit standardized tests scores (the SAT or ACT, except in the rare circumstance when these tests are not available to a student). This will accompany enhanced communications to students and school counselors emphasizing that test scores are interpreted in the context of a student’s background and educational opportunities.

Current practices for applicants with family connections — including “legacies” and children of faculty and staff — will remain unchanged while we continue to consider a range of complex questions raised by the committee and seek more input from our community.

Have no issue with them doing it but very later notification since most who are planning on taking it already signed up. No open slots by us testing unless you drive 2+ hours - (not CA) - would only have the potential August slot open- they have half the amount of locations they had in the past since not as many students are taking it.

Not a lot of time for kids to now study with AP tests etc.

People take these tests in senior year all the time. That is the norm in this country. Not too late at all to sign up if you are in 11th now.

Juniors aiming for top schools have taken the SAT at least once already. This is a very late call.

[Anonymous]

My guess says that publics in red states will be test required. California and others like it will be TO, with pretty much only California test blind.

For the private schools, those schools who had high average SAT scores before will be the ones who will go test required. So Johns Hopkins, Duke, Emory, Vanderbilt, WashU, BC, BU, NEU, Tufts, RPI, NYU, GWU, Miami, Wake, Tulane. Schools like American will continue to be test optional. I bet SMU and the like continue to be test optional.

For SLACs,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:colleges will start making announcements for class of 2026 soon to give current sophomores plenty of time to prep.

Current juniors will be the last class to have real test optional options.

Brown and Dartmouth are implementing them for class of 2029 (currently juniors)...no options there. At least Yale offers flexibility on the types of tests accepted.

HS class of 2025 should be exempted from these requirements giving the timing of the announcements.

That's silly. Surely kids (and parents, and counselors) knew that schools were reviewing the policies and considering going back to test-required. Anyway, March-August before senior year is a fine and traditional time to take the exam. (Really, are there kids who never even take the exams because of TO policies? I assumed almost all took the exams and decided not to submit based on lower-than-hoped-for scores.)

[Anonymous]

Brown administrators have hinted at this for quite a while now. They've said that SAT/ACT scores are far more indicative of student performance than GPAs because of grade inflation.

This is obvious to everyone. If anything, colleges should weigh the SAT and ACT heavier than they currently do, but that'll never happen because of political correctness.

https://www.brownalumnimagazine.com/articles/2023-06-20/to-test-or-not-to-test

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Welfare check on the TESTING IS NEVER COMING BACK! brigade, please.

I mean…Columbia went permanently TO. Cornell announced that it’s extending TO. Michigan is permanently TO. The UC schools are permanently test-blind. Amherst, Pomona, and a number of other top-ranked SLACs are permanently TO. The vast majority of schools outside the ~50 people on here talk about are still TO and don’t seem to be signaling any change.

I think testing is going to come back for a small subset of schools that have huge numbers of applications and want to use tests to cull applicants easily, and at public schools in some red states.

I think the “TO is over” folks are reading the evidence very selectively.

First, nothing is permanent. I agree Cal schools will not come back; Pomona also. Columbia will be test required before long as will Cornell and Michigan. They have to given the moves already.

As to why -- they are of the view that the test score is a better predictor of first year performance. Better than inflated grades.

Well, sure…in which case Yale, Dartmouth, and Brown could eliminate tests again at some point!

The point is, there is no indication that TO is going away broadly. Many schools were TO before the pandemic. Some will shift back to requiring tests in the coming years. Others will stake out some new ground. Many (probably most) will stay test optional. The idea that what Dartmouth, Yale, and Brown have done portends some great pendulum swing back to test-required is not grounded in any evidence.

Here’s the thing—I don’t really care. My TO kid got into a great school this year, and my next kid always planned to submit scores. I think test optional is great because it allows every kid to put their best foot forward. But truly, whatever. I just think the wishcasting among the folks who have decided standardized testing is the One True Indicator is ridiculous and makes people who think they are smart sound really dumb.

since when were people able to just put there best foot forward in life, and disregard the part of the app they don’t want to do, when we are competing for a job or admission to something. In those cases people should all be required to submit the exact same things for review to see who is the strongest candidate. If you are bad at tests you are not the strongest candidate. Just like If you are applying for a dance program and you can’t dance as well as the person next to you in the audition then you don’t get in either. Should it be optional for some dancers at that audition to only do half the routine because they feel that is the way they will shine best (since they know they can’t do the other half well) and still get in? No. They should not.
That’s life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My Senior kicked butt on standardized tests...of course, it's the year after him they come back.

Same here, but his grades were mediocre. Based on his outcomes, I think colleges have already started implementing Test-preferred policies.

I am so annoyed by these uninformed posts. You have no understanding of why they are reinstating. It's not so kids who "kick butt" on standardized tests can get in over others who people like you perceive of unworthy because they have a lower score. It's so people who do really well (1350+) submit their scores and show schools that they are capable of doing the work, despite a crappy education. This is not to let more 1600 students over potential 1400 students. Those of you with the high scores are actually at an even great disadvantage with test required. I can't believe how obtuse you all are to not understand this.

I think you're wrong on this. Universities compete with each other; they're considering the same 100 kids from rich suburban county A with about the same grades, ECs, recommendations. Unless you assume standardized scores tell you literally nothing, it's easy for the university to add those to it's overall evaluation (not like they need to evaluate another essay). The only downside is missing kids who logistically can't take the test, and who is that in Ffx/Montgomery etc? If it lets one university get kids who are more likely to succeed vs their peer universities, they will, and should. Even in a world where a lower score is an advantage (maybe it means the kid worked harder?) you would expect the universities to consider something as easy to factor in as test scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:colleges will start making announcements for class of 2026 soon to give current sophomores plenty of time to prep.

Current juniors will be the last class to have real test optional options.

Brown and Dartmouth are implementing them for class of 2029 (currently juniors)...no options there. At least Yale offers flexibility on the types of tests accepted.

HS class of 2025 should be exempted from these requirements giving the timing of the announcements.

That's silly. Surely kids (and parents, and counselors) knew that schools were reviewing the policies and considering going back to test-required. Anyway, March-August before senior year is a fine and traditional time to take the exam. (Really, are there kids who never even take the exams because of TO policies? I assumed almost all took the exams and decided not to submit based on lower-than-hoped-for scores.)

Your kid has over 7 months to take the test even if class of 2025. Some even take October of senior year.

[Anonymous]

I mentioned it on another thread but the timing seems ideal for researchers to roll out a revamped SAT/ACT alternative. Confidence in those legacy tests and the College Board is low. Better tech makes it far easier to scale assessment alternatives too.
A section or separate test that measures EQ would be ideal for colleges too, since they've made it clear for quite a while that they are looking for future leaders who will collaborate well. Companies have started doing this type of testing at scale. Google, for example, recently widely rolled out the Google Hiring Assessment, which they "designed to measure workstyle skills required for success in a role at Google." Most applicants have to pass this assessment before they can interview.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My Senior kicked butt on standardized tests...of course, it's the year after him they come back.

Same here, but his grades were mediocre. Based on his outcomes, I think colleges have already started implementing Test-preferred policies.

I am so annoyed by these uninformed posts. You have no understanding of why they are reinstating. It's not so kids who "kick butt" on standardized tests can get in over others who people like you perceive of unworthy because they have a lower score. It's so people who do really well (1350+) submit their scores and show schools that they are capable of doing the work, despite a crappy education. This is not to let more 1600 students over potential 1400 students. Those of you with the high scores are actually at an even great disadvantage with test required. I can't believe how obtuse you all are to not understand this.

I think you're wrong on this. Universities compete with each other; they're considering the same 100 kids from rich suburban county A with about the same grades, ECs, recommendations. Unless you assume standardized scores tell you literally nothing, it's easy for the university to add those to it's overall evaluation (not like they need to evaluate another essay). The only downside is missing kids who logistically can't take the test, and who is that in Ffx/Montgomery etc? If it lets one university get kids who are more likely to succeed vs their peer universities, they will, and should. Even in a world where a lower score is an advantage (maybe it means the kid worked harder?) you would expect the universities to consider something as easy to factor in as test scores.

If we are talking T20, only 1 of those 100 are getting in tho.

The rest are too one dimensional (all stem) without “personal character qualities” that distinguish…The new spots are actually going to that kid with the 1350 score and the cooler/better story/character narrative that weaves through Letters of Rec/Essays etc.

[Anonymous]

AP exams should be scored 0-100 and kids should be able to submit their scores if they’d like. This would separate the wheat from the chaff much better than the SAT, which has a very low ceiling.