Question from AP teacher
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Anonymous
If you’re asking such a stupid question you need to be in a different job. |
Anonymous
I am original poster. I am not looking for opinions or advice from teachers. I am not looking for opinions or advice from anyone on how to teach my class or how to assess my students. My question TO PARENTS is rather simple: if your child is taking an AP class, would you prefer the class grade of any student in this class be a clear predictor of the AP exam grade (A student should expect 5, B student should expect 4, C student should expect 3) or would you prefer that the class grades to be curved up so that all students who do work get get at least a C, students who demonstrate mastery at the level 2 or 3 get a B, students who know enough to pass with at least a 3 get an A. This is not a question on what is included in instruction or in the test. AP curriculum is taught and assessed at AP level. This is not a question on how tests are graded - students get feedback based on AP level rubrics. This IS a question on the class grade calculation. I guess it boils down to this: do you think the class grade should be different for students who show mastery at 2 vs 3 and 3 vs 4 vs 5 level? Or do you feel that ensuring higher GPA for all students (and as result, having more students sign for and staying in class) is more important? Again, one can argue both ways. Please no teacher responses. |
Anonymous
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Op, I completely understand your question. Since you have a question, I'm glad you asked mostly because ...
Op, I am worried and concerned that there is NOT an established policy on this - system wide, school wide, Principal and Department Heard and Teacher enforced. It should be a policy. It should be transparent. Talked about with parents before students sign up for classes. This should NOT be a question you have, but it's not your fault, if you are asking. The school system has failed you if you have to ask. The answer depends .. not on you or the parents, it depends on how the school system wants to position themselves. Requiring all to take the AP Exam so the school system can't cherry pick best results. Do they want the respect -- and it's known by college admissions -- that a "3" is a college C and therefore a high school grade of a C is given (as a best estimate calculation of student performance) If your school has no leadership and no consistency in grading - and you have to ask this question - that's the greatest problem of all. |
Anonymous
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Op, you can ruminate and wonder about this for entertainment purposes, but this is established far above your pay grade, at the Superintendent Level. It better be, if they are doing their job.
If it hasn't been, and made clear to you by your local Principal, there is a lot wrong with FCPS. |
Anonymous
This is the correct answer. Basing tests on the last couple year's released questions (with appropriate edits of course) and applying their scoring criteria with a scaled curve is definitely the most accurate representation. That's what we did for our IB school. I'm surprised it's not the norm everywhere. |
Anonymous
There is no clear policy on this. I don’t think having strict policy on this is possible or makes sense. There should probably be a guidance at county level but again.. College Board would argue everyone should have an A or B : they cite research proving that all students benefit from taking AP classes , even those who fail the test, so we should encourage as many students to take and stay in AP level classes. I don’t know if I trust the College Board here - they make money of each AP and SAT test taken, they get money from AP summer institutes, etc. I think colleges would say they would rather see different grades for students with different level of mastery. But again, they’re often are limited non AP options for some subjects in schools. Anyway, even if there was a policy or clear guidance.. I would still want to hear from actual parents of actual students. I don’t necessarily agree with everything the county is doing , and I am aKeats interested in hearing opposing arguments. And I never saw discussion here on AP grading.. is it bad I want to know what parents think? Does not mean I don’t have my own opinion. |
Anonymous
I agree with the views of the poster immediately above. I am out of state and my kids go to an easy/chill suburban high school where most teachers don't grade very hard. My 9th grader is taking APUSH along with top 10% of class type kids. Parents are professionals with grad degrees from good schools. This is my kid's first AP and hardest class ever in this district. In our district there is an insane focus (in APUSH only) on making extensive textbook notes and turning them in for grades. This is a time suck that does not simulate college behaviors that I found useful. The last teacher called them "Cornell notes". I asked around and none of the Cornellians in my life had used this note-taking style in college. So far my 9th grader has two marking period Bs and a C+ on the midterm. This teacher is relying a lot on the ETS test bank for quizzes and tests. My senior, who took the same class with a different teacher three years ago, did much better gradewise (As) with less work even though my sons are equally smart kids. My younger one does study his course materials for the test and I gave him two extra AP test review books I purchased from Amazon. (I don't think he is using those extra books a lot.) According to my younger student, he gets good grades on anything written/free expression but gets tripped up on Educational Testing Service's "distractor questions". I'm not very happy about this analysis because if it's true, I'm not fond of how standardized tests are written to trick slightly weaker students to force a curve. So...back to your question...I care a lot about my son's GPA. I'm not happy he's getting a B and honestly, any B reduces his chances of getting into our excellent state flagship where his brother just got accepted. However, since I don't want to be a helicopter parent, and my son says there are some kids getting an A (all extremely bright kids), there really isn't anything I can say to the teacher. I've concluded this teacher wants a forced curve that is tougher than the predecessors. But I'm bummed it's being achieved with ETS strategies (multiple choice, distractors, etc.) rather than "show me what you know" essay questions. And that this class is making my kid dislike school again. So I guess I'm in favor of easier grading and not linking it to a performance on the test. But I'd say a person who gets a 3 should be getting a B minimum. Not a C. High school is not college. And AP classes are just a simulation of college anyway - not the real thing. On to the value of APs in general. My hope is that an AP class is interesting and thought-provoking in addition to being a chance to blast through an introductory college textbook. I agree with the parents who say AP has become a cynical replacement for what used to be the "'Gifted" track. And to me that's AP's greatest utility. To get my son into better classes with more intellectually engaged teachers and better students. All along, my family has tried to figure out what the financial value of AP will be to our family and been pretty skeptical about it. In my older son's case, he will get a modest stockpile of credits that will only be useful if he flunks or withdraws from a class. The credits he can get imported to his college transcript don't allow much meaningful course advancement. So, summing up...as a parent, I don't want my kid's GPA linked to the AP test. The test is just an artifact for me. I want my kid graded in APUSH in a manner consistent with other hard classes in our school district. If that means my kid gets a B, I can live with it. A C is a big quandary. Now I have a question for you, teacher. Should I in any way contact the APUSH teacher at my school regarding my kid's lower performance vs. expectations and school district norms? I have not so far. Especially because I had hoped my kid could pull his grade up himself and I don't want to be "one of those parents". I don't know what I can say besides I think my son should be getting a better grade in context/your curve is too strict. I am really interested to know what you think. Because your concern is a mirror image of mine... Thanks all for reading my essay about the experience of being an APUSH parent... |
Anonymous
I really appreciate your post!! I want to very much agree with what you say about the value of AP level classes in high school. This is exactly what I am struggling with. My students grades in past years are very much aligned with their performance on the AP exam. And the pass rates are higher than FCPS averages. But I keep thinking of students who drop the class when they don’t get the grade they want (A) even though they like and would benefit from class and students who work hard but struggling even with extra help just to be passing. If there were non-ap but still challenging options for each subject (think DE or just real honors level) there would be no questions here. AP implies standardized grading. But for many courses there is no non-ap option or there is one but it is a joke of a class. And thus here I am.. About your child: I think that if you believe the assignments are taking too much time and at the same time are not beneficial for your child, you should definitely bring this up. I would definitely encourage parents to talk to me about this. I would hate to learn I assign busy work, and I would definitely make changes. But I can’t say anything about the grade or whether it is representative of your child knowledge. Not possible to advise without working with your child. Sorry. I must say, in my experience, AP exam is a good mix if mcqs and frqs to have all kinds of students to show what they know (especially with the curve). And I think the what you call tricky mcqs do have value - they make students stop and think about nuances. But again, this is all true in the context of s longer comprehensive exam which Gad a good mix of all kinds old questions ( straightforward, conceptual, factual, “tricky”, etc.). I hope your teacher designs balanced tests.. |
Anonymous
A child who doesn't know how to take notes shouldn't be in a "college class." It is asking a lot (although we all try to do it) to teach your child who is unprepared all of the required content, plus how to write, plus basic study skills in one class. - Another AP teacher |
Anonymous
Thank you for sharing your opinion. It is valuable to me. There is a step I can take, that I have not, of working with my child to understand his test answers and whether his knowledge is "B"level. I'm a pretty experienced consumer of standardized tests and I love history and have a deep background. Perhaps I need to dig deeper than my gut feeling that things are off. I do not think I should challenge the particular note-taking focus of this class since it's been common across teachers. I think that means the secondary curriculum director or the history curriculum specialist wants it that way. But I appreciate your POV on wanting to hear from parents and will keep that in mind as a data point for a future dilemma. I really appreciate you asking this question. To other teachers who think this debate shouldn't play out in public...I think you're wrong. Grades aren't just grades anymore. And there's a lot going wrong with what's happening with detracking in the name of equity. I long for the discriminatory simplicity of the old honors/college prep/job right after high school track even though it had some morally questionable results and discouraged some from achieving their full potential. Now we have an opposite situation where my kids were bored and sad in early grades because most tracking was prohibited. I hope we are realizing the equity benefits but I kind of think it's not working. Because students need to be in classes where kids are moving at roughly the same pace. It's actually from this site that I've come to realize that AP is in effect the honors track of my youth. Honestly, that makes me want to push for more APs at my kids' public high school even though they aren't very useful for college credit for them. I'm also starting to advocate for 7 period days like I had as a kid. My kids' school has 6 period days. I think the school needs to offer more subjects and more rigor to meet the needs of the top students. OP, there are no easy answers for you, but I would encourage you to try to make sure that your lowest-graded students still like history and aren't turned off by it. They are the ones most impacted by whatever is decided. You also should consider making kids very aware of what the grading policies are like. Let kids opt out in advance of class registration. That's much better than in-course struggles. My view is that C students are usually working in a class that's wrong for them. That's exactly why the Ivies have grade inflation. The caliber of students has risen and there is no point in forcing a curve on many humanities subjects. I do understand the why of curves for math, engineering, and medecine but not for English and history. |
Anonymous
| Author of last post, thank you for your reply and you sharing your thoughts! |
Anonymous
Th author of the last post ranted about "equity". Any teacher worth her beans knows that it's not "equity" that's causing grade inflation. |
Anonymous
I think I am the parent and PP being referred to. My point about equity was mainly related to detracking. I'm not sure I understand you, PP above, can you clarify? I wasn't ranting. I know my children are worse off because honors and gifted tracks don't exist in my school district (K-8). Although it wasn't openly shared and therefore kind of hidden, the only kids who get enrichment have to be working two grades above level. And in elementary school, the parent basically has to insist the school do an IEP or accommodation. Because the school district has bigger fires to fight than worrying about kids that are doing just fine. Cynically, if I'd known that there was a rule behind the scenes, I would have put my kids in math tutoring until they qualified. Because they were bored and undereducated in their regular homeroom classes with multiple ability groups. I understand why that is and I'm sympathetic. I don't think most elementary teachers can handle keeping 3 or more ability groupings in one room gaining a year of growth in math for a year of school. Because there's just not enough time in the school day and that's a huge amount of in-class juggling. Regarding equity at the high school level, I like that people can sample harder classes without being told by authority figures where they belong. And I hate the idea of authority figures making crappy calls on who should go to college. My point was that the detracking that was supposed to fix that isn't working well at all. Is that a rant? I want things to be better, and I've sacrificed some of my kids' happiness with school by accepting the educational profession's latest verdict on detracking. The problem is, it doesn't seem to be working. Like in my kid's mandatory general enrollment science class where two-thirds of the kids have test-taking accommodations. He gets to watch the parapros structuring assignments for other kids right in front of him. And the pace is slower so everyone can keep up. With situations like this, I feel like the old way was definitely better for the top students. I genuinely would like it to be better for everyone, so I accepted the social experiment. We are just not getting there now either. Regarding equity in AP grades, I'm not sure if my previous points are being criticized here. I think I was clear I prefer them to be linked to local high school conditions and not to the test score. Which usually would be more lenient? I find it fascinating that any school links report card grades to AP tests such that you can get your class grade lifted up if you do well on the test. I think that would be great but tons of work for the administration and AP teachers. Tracking and APs are really on my mind right now because, since my senior just got into his choice of college, now I'm on to what I can do to re-interest my 9th grader in school. He's so much more cheerful this year now that he's taking more harder classes with better students. And he has more friends he can relate to. I just hope he can figure out how to improve his APUSH grade and maybe get a 4. I value this conversation a lot. |
Anonymous
+1, she asking for their preference. OP hasn’t said it would change her teaching/grading practice in any way. |
Anonymous
| An A in the class should correspond with a 4 on the AP exam (and so on down). You can give extra no-need-to-turn-in work for those striving for a 5. |