Question from AP teacher

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, all kids should be encouraged to take an AP Class, but not pressured. Plenty are college-ready, enough, without AP.
No, the grading should not be dumbed-down. A likely 3 on the AP Exam is a "C" in the HS class. Not likely to even pass the Exam? No way should they be getting a C in the HS AP class.

This is stupid. How you do on the exam is no indicative of how you do in the class. Those exams are a specific animal and the questions are often hard to understand (even for me reading the practice tests and I am an excellent test taker). There is not that correlation for a lot of kids.

Yes it is. This is an extremely standardized class with tons of outside standardized material. Any tutor knows exactly what chapter 4 entails. While some people aren't great test takers if you aren't probably AP classes aren't for you for one but also the class specifically teaches to this one test so they absolutely should correlate.

Why are you making such gross generalizations. OF COURSE you can take and AP class if you aren't a good test taker. Our APUSH teacher's tests, quizzes, assignments, flashcards and a billion other assignment are not the same as the standarized APUSH exam. It's isn't. The other APUSH class at our school doesn't give near the number of assignments my child's does and DC is doing well. Really well. So OFC DC should be taking that regardless of what happens on the AP exam (the only AP taken before had an A in the class but 3 on the exam).

Further, not everyone can just run out and get a tutor to help prepare for every AP class, if that's what you're implying.

No, I'm implying that the class can match the AP test without much effort. That this teacher should know how to teach to the test and grade relative to the test. This is a class taught nationally and there are standards to follow for teaching and grading.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How funny that so many people here called OP stupid and incompetent and themselves do not agree on what is the “correct” way to do it. This is the case in point- the approach of assigning grade in AP classes varies from school to school and even teacher to teacher. I have met many AP teachers who’d say “I do it this way:…” and never met an AP teacher who said “in our county we do it this way:..”. And up to today you might have thought “ it is obvious” , but what is obvious that it is not! It usually comes down to what school/department agenda and what is suitable for their student body. And sometimes in singleton classes in school that has other priorities it is left to the teacher to decide.

No, it's that people are dumb and self-serving. I want my kids class to be graded easily because it benefits them? Kids should take the class and be graded easier because we should offer them challenge? Not something a teacher should be listening to. Teach the class according to the test and grade accordingly. These are not questions that are popping up in the private schools forum regardless of whether it is an AP class or something similar to that level. It's simply coming up here because there are few standards in public and people think anything goes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, all kids should be encouraged to take an AP Class, but not pressured. Plenty are college-ready, enough, without AP.
No, the grading should not be dumbed-down. A likely 3 on the AP Exam is a "C" in the HS class. Not likely to even pass the Exam? No way should they be getting a C in the HS AP class.

This is stupid. How you do on the exam is no indicative of how you do in the class. Those exams are a specific animal and the questions are often hard to understand (even for me reading the practice tests and I am an excellent test taker). There is not that correlation for a lot of kids.

PP is too extreme, but still has the right idea. Kids should not get an A in the class but fail the AP exam. If they do that, it's not because 'the exams are a specific animal' with questions that 'are often hard to understand.' It's also not because a kid is a bad test taker. The kids only need around half of the multiple choice questions correct. They only need to be able to write a mostly coherent essay that shows some knowledge of the subject. An A grade in an AP class should only be for the kids who show mastery of the content. Kids who have anything approaching mastery of the subject are not going to fail the exam.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, all kids should be encouraged to take an AP Class, but not pressured. Plenty are college-ready, enough, without AP.
No, the grading should not be dumbed-down. A likely 3 on the AP Exam is a "C" in the HS class. Not likely to even pass the Exam? No way should they be getting a C in the HS AP class.

This is stupid. How you do on the exam is no indicative of how you do in the class. Those exams are a specific animal and the questions are often hard to understand (even for me reading the practice tests and I am an excellent test taker). There is not that correlation for a lot of kids.

PP is too extreme, but still has the right idea. Kids should not get an A in the class but fail the AP exam. If they do that, it's not because 'the exams are a specific animal' with questions that 'are often hard to understand.' It's also not because a kid is a bad test taker. The kids only need around half of the multiple choice questions correct. They only need to be able to write a mostly coherent essay that shows some knowledge of the subject. An A grade in an AP class should only be for the kids who show mastery of the content. Kids who have anything approaching mastery of the subject are not going to fail the exam.

Do kids really get an A and then "fail" the exam? Come on. Do they get A's and get a 3? Yes. And so what? That doesn't mean they didn't earn and A in class. It is often due to the particularities of the exam, they are bad test takers, or they simply did not study. Lots of reasons.

And how nice they have YOU to tell them what they should have or what they need or the reasons they didn't do as well on the exam.

[Anonymous]

High School teacher and High School parent here.
1. I hate that so many teachers feel they have to teach to a test. That's not how real learning works.
2. The AP test scores do not get kids into college. They give kids credit (and only at some schools). In fact, more and more schools don't want kids to skip the general courses because an AP class simply isn't the same as a 100 level college course
3. Teach your classes in a way that sparks excitement, interest, joy, and love of learning. Make sure the kids are learning more than just what's on the test. Depth is always better than breadth.
4. No way should 30% of your kids be earning a D or F. Nor should they all be getting an A.

Curious how long you've been teaching.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:High School teacher and High School parent here.
1. I hate that so many teachers feel they have to teach to a test. That's not how real learning works.
2. The AP test scores do not get kids into college. They give kids credit (and only at some schools). In fact, more and more schools don't want kids to skip the general courses because an AP class simply isn't the same as a 100 level college course
3. Teach your classes in a way that sparks excitement, interest, joy, and love of learning. Make sure the kids are learning more than just what's on the test. Depth is always better than breadth.
4. No way should 30% of your kids be earning a D or F. Nor should they all be getting an A.

Curious how long you've been teaching.

Can you just point this teacher to the materials and standards for the course? I cannot believe FCPS does not have these for an AP course. Of course teach for interest but a lot of stuff is standardized. It doesn't follow that it's boring. One of my most interesting professors had 1000 kids in his class and taught much of the same information each year. He really enjoyed introducing students to the larger world of his field of study.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:High School teacher and High School parent here.
1. I hate that so many teachers feel they have to teach to a test. That's not how real learning works.
2. The AP test scores do not get kids into college. They give kids credit (and only at some schools). In fact, more and more schools don't want kids to skip the general courses because an AP class simply isn't the same as a 100 level college course
3. Teach your classes in a way that sparks excitement, interest, joy, and love of learning. Make sure the kids are learning more than just what's on the test. Depth is always better than breadth.
4. No way should 30% of your kids be earning a D or F. Nor should they all be getting an A.

Curious how long you've been teaching.

Can you just point this teacher to the materials and standards for the course? I cannot believe FCPS does not have these for an AP course. Of course teach for interest but a lot of stuff is standardized. It doesn't follow that it's boring. One of my most interesting professors had 1000 kids in his class and taught much of the same information each year. He really enjoyed introducing students to the larger world of his field of study.

AP courses are not designed by the county. There is a standard course of study that AP teachers must follow that is outlined by the College Board. The courses are designed for teacher to teach directly to the test. However, a good AP teacher can get kids excited about this despite the CB oversight. All that said, an AP course is still nowhere close to a good 100 level college course.

[Anonymous]

I know you said no teacher responses, so you can skip my thoughts, but I wanted to at least let parents know my experience on both sides of this.

First off, it's unfortunate that there are so many responses from teachers with egos fragile enough to be shattered by OP's question. There are still too many teachers who think that their content and methods are the end all be all. Props to OP for being a professional and treating the K-12 experience like the ever-evolving joint venture that it is between educators, students and families.

Pre-COVID, I taught closer to the second scenario that OP describes, where your class grade was usually a reasonable indicator of what you'd expect on the exam. Students rose to the challenge and over the course of four years, 150+ students per year, and I can count on one hand the number of course failures. My AP scores were far above average on every measure.

When we went to online school, Gatehouse took away everything resembling standards (e.g. 50% floors, virtually non-existent deadlines). It completely undermined the system I had in place, and not surprisingly, it turned more into OP's first scenario.

Years later and AP scores are "better," but by that I mean that we've gotten them back up to average. Although in an active school community, I've yet to receive one complaint from admin or parents, so I do think that there has been a focus shift.

TLDR: These days GPA >> AP scores

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know you said no teacher responses, so you can skip my thoughts, but I wanted to at least let parents know my experience on both sides of this.

First off, it's unfortunate that there are so many responses from teachers with egos fragile enough to be shattered by OP's question. There are still too many teachers who think that their content and methods are the end all be all. Props to OP for being a professional and treating the K-12 experience like the ever-evolving joint venture that it is between educators, students and families.

Pre-COVID, I taught closer to the second scenario that OP describes, where your class grade was usually a reasonable indicator of what you'd expect on the exam. Students rose to the challenge and over the course of four years, 150+ students per year, and I can count on one hand the number of course failures. My AP scores were far above average on every measure.

When we went to online school, Gatehouse took away everything resembling standards (e.g. 50% floors, virtually non-existent deadlines). It completely undermined the system I had in place, and not surprisingly, it turned more into OP's first scenario.

Years later and AP scores are "better," but by that I mean that we've gotten them back up to average. Although in an active school community, I've yet to receive one complaint from admin or parents, so I do think that there has been a focus shift.

TLDR: These days GPA >> AP scores

I know I said “no teacher responses, please”. But THANK YOU for yours!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mine had a very hard grader. Got a C in the class, but got a 5 on the AP exam.

That would a foolish teacher, not a hard grader.

I am a teacher and have taught many years of AP and honors classes. It has been my job to help kids do well in my class and in the AP exam.

If the kids are doing well in class but not in the AP exam then the tests and classwork may not be aligned to AP syllabus and test.

The same is true for the reverse misalignment, and can hurt the gpa of juniors and sophomores for no reason.

OP - work with kids to help their grades as much as you can and use a syllabus that fits the exam. Build their confidence for the AP test and future college or community college classes.

I have taught for many years and I am also a parent but we don't live in FCPS boundary. As a parent I want teachers to help kids on grades if they try hard and do the classwork and sometimes kids may do better on one quarter than another. As a teacher I want to do the same. A 3 on AP should reflect a B or more for the class if the kid has done all the classwork and the tests and quizzes should be at that level of difficulty. But on the other side if a kid has done all their work for the year and had a bad day for the AP exam I don't drop their class grade just for that. So, most of the kids in my class with B can get a 3 and pass the AP exam. I think parents appreciate that as I would as a parent too.

[Anonymous]

My hs junior has had a few AP classes between last year and this year. Each of his teachers approach this issue a little differently, probably because the subjects and associated exams are different, so there's no one right answer.

But one of his classes this year has an approach that I do like. The homework is considered practice and given minimal weight in their grade, but is reflective of the exam in terms of difficulty. So it gives the kids a decent idea of where they stand on exam prep. Tests are reflective of the exam (which is apparently one of the harder ones, with generally low scores nationwide) ... but then they get a chance to "re-do" what they missed on the test for extra credit. So they can bring their grade up, but it's still totally clear to the student where they stand in terms of readiness for the exam.

[Anonymous]

As an AP teacher myself, I can tell you that retaking parts of the test can create false sense of confidence. Often students know how to answer questions when they know which topic is assessed but struggle recognizing different topics on the test that covers many topics at once.

[Anonymous]

For the PP who thinks the teachers were making up Cornell notes:
https://lsc.cornell.edu/how-to-study/taking-notes/cornell-note-taking-system/

"The Cornell Note-Taking System was originally developed by Cornell education professor, Walter Pauk. Prof. Pauk outlined this effective note-taking method in his book, How to Study in College."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:High School teacher and High School parent here.
1. I hate that so many teachers feel they have to teach to a test. That's not how real learning works.
2. The AP test scores do not get kids into college. They give kids credit (and only at some schools). In fact, more and more schools don't want kids to skip the general courses because an AP class simply isn't the same as a 100 level college course
3. Teach your classes in a way that sparks excitement, interest, joy, and love of learning. Make sure the kids are learning more than just what's on the test. Depth is always better than breadth.
4. No way should 30% of your kids be earning a D or F. Nor should they all be getting an A.

Curious how long you've been teaching.

Can you just point this teacher to the materials and standards for the course? I cannot believe FCPS does not have these for an AP course. Of course teach for interest but a lot of stuff is standardized. It doesn't follow that it's boring. One of my most interesting professors had 1000 kids in his class and taught much of the same information each year. He really enjoyed introducing students to the larger world of his field of study.

AP courses are not designed by the county. There is a standard course of study that AP teachers must follow that is outlined by the College Board. The courses are designed for teacher to teach directly to the test. However, a good AP teacher can get kids excited about this despite the CB oversight. All that said, an AP course is still nowhere close to a good 100 level college course.

No, there is NO standard course of study. There are objectives and skills that must be included, but the examples, assignments, tests and grades are all individual to a teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:High School teacher and High School parent here.
1. I hate that so many teachers feel they have to teach to a test. That's not how real learning works.
2. The AP test scores do not get kids into college. They give kids credit (and only at some schools). In fact, more and more schools don't want kids to skip the general courses because an AP class simply isn't the same as a 100 level college course
3. Teach your classes in a way that sparks excitement, interest, joy, and love of learning. Make sure the kids are learning more than just what's on the test. Depth is always better than breadth.
4. No way should 30% of your kids be earning a D or F. Nor should they all be getting an A.

Curious how long you've been teaching.

Can you just point this teacher to the materials and standards for the course? I cannot believe FCPS does not have these for an AP course. Of course teach for interest but a lot of stuff is standardized. It doesn't follow that it's boring. One of my most interesting professors had 1000 kids in his class and taught much of the same information each year. He really enjoyed introducing students to the larger world of his field of study.

AP courses are not designed by the county. There is a standard course of study that AP teachers must follow that is outlined by the College Board. The courses are designed for teacher to teach directly to the test. However, a good AP teacher can get kids excited about this despite the CB oversight. All that said, an AP course is still nowhere close to a good 100 level college course.

No, there is NO standard course of study. There are objectives and skills that must be included, but the examples, assignments, tests and grades are all individual to a teacher.

100% agree. Also, to the author of the post above, what exactly would qualify as a “good 100 level college course”? Take Calculus. Is your golden standard for a good course the one from MIT and CalTech? Or VT would qualify? And then, would it be only Calc from engineering department or the one that accounting majors take is ok? Because, clearly, you would know..