at a loss for logical punishment ideas

[Anonymous]

No screen time. Just did this with my child as a punching. It's only been 2 days and the change in behavior is night and day.

[Anonymous]

*punishment not punching. Autocorrect

[Anonymous]

[img]

Anonymous wrote:Amazing how wrong everyone’s advice here is.

Op get a copy of The Defiant Child by Kazdin. If you cannot successfully implement a plan on your own, seek out a behavioral psychologist.

+1. From the book: “ Myth 1. Punishment will change bad behavior. Parents typically assume that punishing a child will teach a lesson by “sending a message.” So punishment is often a parent’s first and last option when it comes to changing a child’s behavior. Depending on your style of parenting and your mood at any given moment, you decree time-outs, take away a privilege, shout Stop that!, or use nonverbal displays of exasperation like eye-rolling and sighing. Maybe you hit a little, or even a lot. If you’re like most parents, you start out with milder punishments and escalate to more severe ones. Whether you do it mildly or severely, calmly or angrily, systematically or randomly, you probably find yourself punishing your child a great deal, and when you’re not punishing, you’re threatening to punish.”

Punishment increases aggressiveness, drives the child to try to avoid and escape you, and prompts child to adapt in ways to make the punishment useless.

[Anonymous]

So your kids are tired coming home from camp, theyre ignored by Dad since he's still on the clock working so they watch TV, Mom arrives home, but yells at kids to do something else (but not engage with either Mom or Dad eventhough they haven't seen each other all day)

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure what to tell you about the meanness to his brother, but I'm seconding the Youtube as babysitter is part of what's feeding this. Someone on here used the term 'screen sick' to describe the rage when the screen goes off.

I also happen to think a scripted show/movie is healthier for brains than Youtube. But I am an old GenXer...

Anyway, I've been you -- when my kid had asymptomatic covid and had to stay home for a week I tried to work and put her in front of the TV all day with only a few breaks for reading/meals. Even with lots of warnings of when the TV would go off, she threw the remote across the room.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Punishment or consequences won't fix this. He needs major therapy before he shoots you or a teacher.

You're not wrong about her child needing therapy but the tail end of your comment is inappropriate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:also fwiw he swears up and down he did not mean to throw a pillow in my face, and was aiming for the hallway, not me. I do not believe him at all, even though he is a generally trustworthy kid.

He didn't mean to the throw the pillow at you. He is sorry. However in the moment he was unable to control his impulses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. There are no issues like this with him at school, to the helpful poster who suggested he is on the verge of shooting a teacher.

They get home from camp this week at 230pm. I work until 4pm (DH picks them up and brings them home where they proceed to watch 1.5 hours of TV until I get home while he finishes his work).

When I get home, I generally let them watch another 20 mins of TV and then tell them it's time to do something else. So I did not turn off the TV in anger, but rather because after nearly 2 hours of watching memes on YouTube, it is time for something else.

Children at that age should NOT have any access to screens that is not parental attended/controlled. Way too much TV time daily and we are a TV family. YouTube is kid meth. Our kids can watch anything on PBS Kids and a few shows on Disney solo but they still have to ask and we check-in frequently while they are watching. Im totally okay with an hour of Bluey and Wild Kratz on a regular basis but a lot of the shows are semi-adult cartoons and not kid appropriate. TV is the only screen besides a Kindle where they play educational games only. The changer/remote is not in their control meaning they cant FF and rewind for favorite parts (learned that lesson). Any TV outside of that has to be with a parent watching with them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. There are no issues like this with him at school, to the helpful poster who suggested he is on the verge of shooting a teacher.

They get home from camp this week at 230pm. I work until 4pm (DH picks them up and brings them home where they proceed to watch 1.5 hours of TV until I get home while he finishes his work).

When I get home, I generally let them watch another 20 mins of TV and then tell them it's time to do something else. So I did not turn off the TV in anger, but rather because after nearly 2 hours of watching memes on YouTube, it is time for something else.

They are watching too much tv. My kids can watch one show when they get home, then go play outside or in the basement or read a book.

[Anonymous]

I would tend to turn the TV off and ignore the protest. I would expect to spend some time with the kids when the work day is over. Maybe sit down and plan an activity for every afternoon. Monday 20 min bike ride. Tuesday legos. Wednesday card game. They do not have to be long but unless the kid is really into reading...sending him off to read feels like homework.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[img]

Anonymous wrote:Amazing how wrong everyone’s advice here is.

Op get a copy of The Defiant Child by Kazdin. If you cannot successfully implement a plan on your own, seek out a behavioral psychologist.

+1. From the book: “ Myth 1. Punishment will change bad behavior. Parents typically assume that punishing a child will teach a lesson by “sending a message.” So punishment is often a parent’s first and last option when it comes to changing a child’s behavior. Depending on your style of parenting and your mood at any given moment, you decree time-outs, take away a privilege, shout Stop that!, or use nonverbal displays of exasperation like eye-rolling and sighing. Maybe you hit a little, or even a lot. If you’re like most parents, you start out with milder punishments and escalate to more severe ones. Whether you do it mildly or severely, calmly or angrily, systematically or randomly, you probably find yourself punishing your child a great deal, and when you’re not punishing, you’re threatening to punish.”

Punishment increases aggressiveness, drives the child to try to avoid and escape you, and prompts child to adapt in ways to make the punishment useless.

Everyone’s advice has actually been to stop letting the kid watch so much TV because he has shown it results in bad behavior. That’s not what the paragraph describes- it’s setting the kid up for success and admitting reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[img]

Anonymous wrote:Amazing how wrong everyone’s advice here is.

Op get a copy of The Defiant Child by Kazdin. If you cannot successfully implement a plan on your own, seek out a behavioral psychologist.

+1. From the book: “ Myth 1. Punishment will change bad behavior. Parents typically assume that punishing a child will teach a lesson by “sending a message.” So punishment is often a parent’s first and last option when it comes to changing a child’s behavior. Depending on your style of parenting and your mood at any given moment, you decree time-outs, take away a privilege, shout Stop that!, or use nonverbal displays of exasperation like eye-rolling and sighing. Maybe you hit a little, or even a lot. If you’re like most parents, you start out with milder punishments and escalate to more severe ones. Whether you do it mildly or severely, calmly or angrily, systematically or randomly, you probably find yourself punishing your child a great deal, and when you’re not punishing, you’re threatening to punish.”

Punishment increases aggressiveness, drives the child to try to avoid and escape you, and prompts child to adapt in ways to make the punishment useless.

Important to note that Kazdin is *not* against negative consequences. They just need to be correctly calibrated and paired with and effective positive reinforcement program. When we did a variety of Kazdin (guided by a behavioral therapist) my DS absolutely got an immediate consequence for a zero-tolerance behavior like throwing an object at me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[img]

Anonymous wrote:Amazing how wrong everyone’s advice here is.

Op get a copy of The Defiant Child by Kazdin. If you cannot successfully implement a plan on your own, seek out a behavioral psychologist.

+1. From the book: “ Myth 1. Punishment will change bad behavior. Parents typically assume that punishing a child will teach a lesson by “sending a message.” So punishment is often a parent’s first and last option when it comes to changing a child’s behavior. Depending on your style of parenting and your mood at any given moment, you decree time-outs, take away a privilege, shout Stop that!, or use nonverbal displays of exasperation like eye-rolling and sighing. Maybe you hit a little, or even a lot. If you’re like most parents, you start out with milder punishments and escalate to more severe ones. Whether you do it mildly or severely, calmly or angrily, systematically or randomly, you probably find yourself punishing your child a great deal, and when you’re not punishing, you’re threatening to punish.”

Punishment increases aggressiveness, drives the child to try to avoid and escape you, and prompts child to adapt in ways to make the punishment useless.

Everyone’s advice has actually been to stop letting the kid watch so much TV because he has shown it results in bad behavior. That’s not what the paragraph describes- it’s setting the kid up for success and admitting reality.

Cutting down or eliminating screen time is not going to magically eliminate all of the behaviors. And when kids engage in truly unacceptable behavior (swearing, physical aggression) they need to learn to control it even under less than ideal circumstances like being told to turn off the TV after too much screen time.

[Anonymous]

My suggestion -- give the kid a warning that the end of TV time is coming up.
Like, tell him "20 minutes until I am turning the TV off. After TV time I want to tell me about your day" Then "Ten minutes until I am turning the TV off then I want to hear how your day went" . Same for five minutes and one minute.
That way it is not such a shock to the kid who was mesmerized by the screen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I totally agree with all the folks saying I need to get to bottom of what is driving the behavior, then teach the skills that are lacking.

What do I do in the instant when something like this happens though? Some of you are saying not right to send him to his room -- I am truly at a loss for what the immediate reaction from me should be.

For the pillow-throwing incident, you turn off the screens for a couple of days. I used to describe screens and the explosive reaction to turning them off as being based in brain science, and explain to a 9 year old, who is old enough to get it, that research says that kids have a hard time being able to turn off the screens and often react poorly (which he did). The dopamine he gets from each little jolt of happy YouTube meme is addictive. His behavior just supported that research. So you need to dial back the screen usage because it is not good for him or for you. Don't personalize it to him, instead make it about him learning to control electronics usage before it controls him.

You are letting a 9 yo have way too much screen time, BTW. (And I know this is a super hard battle---I fought it)

And you were right to send him to his room. I explained it as "this is not acceptable behavior. You are obviously upset. Take those feelings to your room and cool off and we can discuss it further when you are calm."

It may be, as some PP suggested, that there is something else big going on that is driving the behavior. But before launching the kid into expensive therapy, I would try adjusting his screen time and getting his buy-in to do it. He likely doesn't want to get in trouble. I would also come up with some sort of carrot to reward the screen withdrawal and better behavior. Is there a cool lego that he wants, e.g.? Tell him that you are going to conduct an experiment. He reduces his screen time by "X" factor per week and then, if you have seen improvement, he gets Y. There used to be a book---I forget the name---that was very into this type of incentive-based behavior modification. For some kids it definitely works. If it doesn't work with him, then you may have some bigger issues that need investigation.

The throwing of things is what you need to nip in the bud now, and hard.

Yes, try to eliminate the screens for at least 3 weeks (ideally more) and track carefully if anything improves. Some brains have a hard time coming down from the dopamine hits that YouTube and gaming provide.

Authors that might help with consequences and understanding:
Kazdin
Ross Greene

Especially if there's more than one parent, I highly recommend a parenting course like this: https://www.parentchildjourney.com/journey/
The leader summarizes so much of the research (Kazdin, Greene, many more scientists, his own clinical experience, etc.) in a series of short but rich videos, and then you can do a zoom discussion afterwards to ask questions like your OP with other families who will relate. My husband didn't have the bandwidth to read a stack of parenting books, so doing this class together was helpful to get us talking the same language.