Arguments in favor of giving kids passing grades even when they don't know the material?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We need to lessen graduation requirements. There is no reason why a non college bound kid needs to pass algebra 2. That’s just torture, and a D is a kindness to let them graduate and go on to be a hair dresser or whatever they want to be.

If the hairdresser can't do basic fractions, the bleaching mixture of 1/4 Part A to 1/3 Part B might end up surprising the poor client.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a worry that having kids repeat a grade increases the chance they will drop out before they graduate

why not just have the HS kid go to continuing education at community college? I think that's what they did back in my day, in the 80s.

A kid who graduates only reading at an ES level and can barely do math serves no one, least of all the kid.

Kids do take part in that. You’re just not aware of it. See Edison HS in MCPS.

I'm well aware of Edison HS as we get emails about it from our HS, but that's not the same. Those are vocational schools, and they don't teach reading and math.

Here's a story of what happens when schools just pass a student along:

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/baltimore-city-student-graduates-without-learning-read-patterson-high-school-project-baltimore-debora-prestileo

https://mynbc15.com/news/nation-world/77-tested-at-baltimore-high-school-read-at-elementary-level-71-at-kindergarten

https://katv.com/news/nation-world/about-3-test-at-grade-level-in-math-and-reading-at-one-baltimore-high-school

Baltimore city is a high poverty area. Passing these kids is not helping them get out of poverty.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe this is an argument in favor of more vocational training! They're dumbing down school so that all can pass, but maybe that's not even what those kids want. We should have more vocational training for those who want it and more gifted/AP courses for those who want it.

There is vocational training, MC/UMC parents refuse to have their kid in it

Their kids aren’t the ones not meeting grade level proficiencies

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need to lessen graduation requirements. There is no reason why a non college bound kid needs to pass algebra 2. That’s just torture, and a D is a kindness to let them graduate and go on to be a hair dresser or whatever they want to be.

If the hairdresser can't do basic fractions, the bleaching mixture of 1/4 Part A to 1/3 Part B might end up surprising the poor client.

But algebra 2 isn't "basic fractions", it's graphing transformations of rational functions and factoring and analyzing polynomials like "3x^5+2x^3-6" to determine end behaviors and intercepts. Tell me why my hair dresser needs to be able to identify vertical asymptotes of (x+4)/(x^2+3x+2)?

Virginia has gotten slightly better at it with the introduction of AFDA (algebra 1.5, basically) but it's still an issue. I have 2 students this year who aren't going to graduate because of math. They have Bs and Cs in the rest of their classes, but an F in math. Is that what we want? These kids are working their tails off but just don't have the basic understanding to access algebra 2 materials. They'd be better off retaking algebra 1 to solidify their basics except they can't because then they won't graduate.

Basic algebra 1 should be required. Everything above that should be elective math. Make kids get 2 math credits, but let the second one be financial math, accounting, logic, logistics. Let the second class be baby probability (instead of making algebra 2 a prerequisite for prob/stats).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need to lessen graduation requirements. There is no reason why a non college bound kid needs to pass algebra 2. That’s just torture, and a D is a kindness to let them graduate and go on to be a hair dresser or whatever they want to be.

If the hairdresser can't do basic fractions, the bleaching mixture of 1/4 Part A to 1/3 Part B might end up surprising the poor client.

Basic fractions is a really early life skill.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe this is an argument in favor of more vocational training! They're dumbing down school so that all can pass, but maybe that's not even what those kids want. We should have more vocational training for those who want it and more gifted/AP courses for those who want it.

Good suggestion but that’s not enough. Jobs that pay a living wage require a HS diploma - at least most - and that means Algebra and languages and all sorts of things that arent necessary for success in vocational jobs and are really difficult for some kids to pass. Society isn’t changing. So it’s a gift that schools are adapting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a worry that having kids repeat a grade increases the chance they will drop out before they graduate

why not just have the HS kid go to continuing education at community college? I think that's what they did back in my day, in the 80s.

A kid who graduates only reading at an ES level and can barely do math serves no one, least of all the kid.

Kids do take part in that. You’re just not aware of it. See Edison HS in MCPS.

I'm well aware of Edison HS as we get emails about it from our HS, but that's not the same. Those are vocational schools, and they don't teach reading and math.

Here's a story of what happens when schools just pass a student along:

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/baltimore-city-student-graduates-without-learning-read-patterson-high-school-project-baltimore-debora-prestileo

https://mynbc15.com/news/nation-world/77-tested-at-baltimore-high-school-read-at-elementary-level-71-at-kindergarten

https://katv.com/news/nation-world/about-3-test-at-grade-level-in-math-and-reading-at-one-baltimore-high-school

Baltimore city is a high poverty area. Passing these kids is not helping them get out of poverty.

Edison does teach the reading and math skills necessary for the field in which the students are being trained.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a worry that having kids repeat a grade increases the chance they will drop out before they graduate

And people who ask this question and who advocate for eliminating the 50% rule and the like forget that HS graduation is good for all of us. Kids who could be held back and who rely on the 50% rule aren’t going to be competing for coveted college spots and financial aid. But without a HS diploma, it’s almost impossible to get a job that pays a living wage and has health insurance and paid time off - all of which are good for the rest of us who don’t want to support them and don’t want to see them get into lifestyles that harm us - like being homeless or engaging in drug related activities. Also many of these kids will become the people who are fixing your cars, cleaning your railway system, repairing your HVAC system and doing other jobs many don’t want to do and don’t want their kids doing.

If someone can't pass high school, I wouldn't want them fixing my car nor touching my HVAC system.
You are assuming that this sort of work does not require intelligence and thinking skills. They do and in fact most require passing, at minimum, vocational training. These are highly engineered machines they are handling.

I think the jobs you are referring to that don't require much intelligence is lawn care, janitorial services or delivering newspapers. At the upper end, maybe pipe fitting or welding.

I know many kids who D out of HS and go into things like auto repair and HVAC, which is why I used those fields as examples. People can be really highly skilled in an area yet really struggle in other areas. You don’t need to be able to pass a foreign language or high level English and math to repair cars and HVACs. If you think the people who are working on yours have that skill level, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

Precisely because the public education system, I don't trust most "repair" people.
I do a lot of research before I send in things for repair. And I ask questions of the people doing the work to get an idea of their competency and understanding.

This made me laugh. Any minimally competent marketer can satisfy you that their staff are highly educated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a worry that having kids repeat a grade increases the chance they will drop out before they graduate

why not just have the HS kid go to continuing education at community college? I think that's what they did back in my day, in the 80s.

A kid who graduates only reading at an ES level and can barely do math serves no one, least of all the kid.

Kids do take part in that. You’re just not aware of it. See Edison HS in MCPS.

I'm well aware of Edison HS as we get emails about it from our HS, but that's not the same. Those are vocational schools, and they don't teach reading and math.

Here's a story of what happens when schools just pass a student along:

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/baltimore-city-student-graduates-without-learning-read-patterson-high-school-project-baltimore-debora-prestileo

https://mynbc15.com/news/nation-world/77-tested-at-baltimore-high-school-read-at-elementary-level-71-at-kindergarten

https://katv.com/news/nation-world/about-3-test-at-grade-level-in-math-and-reading-at-one-baltimore-high-school

Baltimore city is a high poverty area. Passing these kids is not helping them get out of poverty.

Of course they do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need to lessen graduation requirements. There is no reason why a non college bound kid needs to pass algebra 2. That’s just torture, and a D is a kindness to let them graduate and go on to be a hair dresser or whatever they want to be.

If the hairdresser can't do basic fractions, the bleaching mixture of 1/4 Part A to 1/3 Part B might end up surprising the poor client.

Has nothing to do with Algebra 2.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a worry that having kids repeat a grade increases the chance they will drop out before they graduate

why not just have the HS kid go to continuing education at community college? I think that's what they did back in my day, in the 80s.

A kid who graduates only reading at an ES level and can barely do math serves no one, least of all the kid.

Kids do take part in that. You’re just not aware of it. See Edison HS in MCPS.

I'm well aware of Edison HS as we get emails about it from our HS, but that's not the same. Those are vocational schools, and they don't teach reading and math.

Here's a story of what happens when schools just pass a student along:

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/baltimore-city-student-graduates-without-learning-read-patterson-high-school-project-baltimore-debora-prestileo

https://mynbc15.com/news/nation-world/77-tested-at-baltimore-high-school-read-at-elementary-level-71-at-kindergarten

https://katv.com/news/nation-world/about-3-test-at-grade-level-in-math-and-reading-at-one-baltimore-high-school

Baltimore city is a high poverty area. Passing these kids is not helping them get out of poverty.

Wow really? I was not aware of that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a worry that having kids repeat a grade increases the chance they will drop out before they graduate

why not just have the HS kid go to continuing education at community college? I think that's what they did back in my day, in the 80s.

A kid who graduates only reading at an ES level and can barely do math serves no one, least of all the kid.

Kids do take part in that. You’re just not aware of it. See Edison HS in MCPS.

I'm well aware of Edison HS as we get emails about it from our HS, but that's not the same. Those are vocational schools, and they don't teach reading and math.

Here's a story of what happens when schools just pass a student along:

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/project-baltimore/baltimore-city-student-graduates-without-learning-read-patterson-high-school-project-baltimore-debora-prestileo

https://mynbc15.com/news/nation-world/77-tested-at-baltimore-high-school-read-at-elementary-level-71-at-kindergarten

https://katv.com/news/nation-world/about-3-test-at-grade-level-in-math-and-reading-at-one-baltimore-high-school

Baltimore city is a high poverty area. Passing these kids is not helping them get out of poverty.

If the schools gave them failing grades they would not stay in school anyway.

[Anonymous]

Because the reality is that someone without a high school diploma in 2023. That is why.

Obviously there is a GED but that isn’t looked at as being a high school diploma unless a student goes onto further education like an associates degree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Viewed through the lens of racial and socioeconomic justice, it would be immensely harmful to hold a student back, simply for an academic deficiency.

BS!

It's terrible for the kid to be uneducated for the rest of their lives.

How many times will you hold someone back? What if they can never pass? Is this for everyone? What about kids with Down’s syndrome? Not everybody is going to college, who cares if they don’t understand geometry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Viewed through the lens of racial and socioeconomic justice, it would be immensely harmful to hold a student back, simply for an academic deficiency.

BS!

It's terrible for the kid to be uneducated for the rest of their lives.

You’re presuming that everyone is capable of a HS diploma. I have an amazing son with a disability who was passed along. He ended up working in a trade, making a living wage and has health insurance. And he’s a thoughtful and caring human. He has been educated to his fullest ability. It’s not terrible that he was passed through - except in vocational school.