Arguments in favor of giving kids passing grades even when they don't know the material?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If we retained all the kids who needed to, we’d dramatically increase costs. Those kids would take fourteen years to go through the system, instead of thirteen. We don’t have the money or space for that, but I wish we did.

More than that. There are many kids that don’t come, don’t care, won’t do the work, parents don’t help them at home. An extra year isn’t going to make a difference. They will still be far behind.

I feel it is ok if they don't finish HS. As long as they have been made to repeat grades in ES and MS, they will at least have an elementary or
middle school education and mastery of that content. They are fine to drop out of HS. At least with repeating grades (and being taught the content well in lower grades) they are literate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a worry that having kids repeat a grade increases the chance they will drop out before they graduate

And people who ask this question and who advocate for eliminating the 50% rule and the like forget that HS graduation is good for all of us. Kids who could be held back and who rely on the 50% rule aren’t going to be competing for coveted college spots and financial aid. But without a HS diploma, it’s almost impossible to get a job that pays a living wage and has health insurance and paid time off - all of which are good for the rest of us who don’t want to support them and don’t want to see them get into lifestyles that harm us - like being homeless or engaging in drug related activities. Also many of these kids will become the people who are fixing your cars, cleaning your railway system, repairing your HVAC system and doing other jobs many don’t want to do and don’t want their kids doing.

If someone can't pass high school, I wouldn't want them fixing my car nor touching my HVAC system.
You are assuming that this sort of work does not require intelligence and thinking skills. They do and in fact most require passing, at minimum, vocational training. These are highly engineered machines they are handling.

I think the jobs you are referring to that don't require much intelligence is lawn care, janitorial services or delivering newspapers. At the upper end, maybe pipe fitting or welding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a worry that having kids repeat a grade increases the chance they will drop out before they graduate

I think this argument makes sense if there is then a concentrated effort to get the child up to grade standard in the following year. But just passing them along is tragic. I recall when I was in college in the 90s and taking a class on education policy reading a piece in which a mother who was SO PROUD her child was graduating HS—first in the family to do so—only to feel utterly betrayed when she realized he still could not read. She had no idea he had just been passed along. That’s the sort of policy that does lead to intergenerational poverty. But sadly we don’t put the resources into schools to fix this. There should be basically a whole shadow program specifically devoted to coaching kids who failed to meet grade standards the previous year.

But it should also be noted that sometimes it is the assessments that are lousy. For the past several years, Maryland has used an assessment that is poorly written and not well tailored to the curriculum. My kids who are extremely advanced and know the material beyond well, meet the standards, but typically don’t show as exceeds standards. I know the kids at bend school pretty well and the rate at which kids are failing to meet standards under this test does not reflect the reality of where those kids are. So the awful tests make the situation look even worse than it is.

That is parent failure as well. More so, because it is HER kid. She never read a book to her child in 18 yrs? Never had him read to her?

It sounds like the mother was probably illiterate too.

[Anonymous]

Handing everyone a HS diploma helps the higher education economy in that the HS diploma is no longer a useful gauge for a candidate's mental skillsets. One now has to pay for and rely on the college degree to assess basic competency.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Handing everyone a HS diploma helps the higher education economy in that the HS diploma is no longer a useful gauge for a candidate's mental skillsets. One now has to pay for and rely on the college degree to assess basic competency.

Yes, and this makes college more expensive for everyone.

The best thing we could do to lower college costs in this country is to go back to high standards for high school graduation. Needing to get a college degree to work at Starbucks to prove that you’re literate and can count change is bad for all of us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If we retained all the kids who needed to, we’d dramatically increase costs. Those kids would take fourteen years to go through the system, instead of thirteen. We don’t have the money or space for that, but I wish we did.

More than that. There are many kids that don’t come, don’t care, won’t do the work, parents don’t help them at home. An extra year isn’t going to make a difference. They will still be far behind.

I feel it is ok if they don't finish HS. As long as they have been made to repeat grades in ES and MS, they will at least have an elementary or
middle school education and mastery of that content. They are fine to drop out of HS. At least with repeating grades (and being taught the content well in lower grades) they are literate.

How old is acceptable for a 5th grader? I personally don't want my kid in a class with a teenager who keeps on failing and having to repeat

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a worry that having kids repeat a grade increases the chance they will drop out before they graduate

And people who ask this question and who advocate for eliminating the 50% rule and the like forget that HS graduation is good for all of us. Kids who could be held back and who rely on the 50% rule aren’t going to be competing for coveted college spots and financial aid. But without a HS diploma, it’s almost impossible to get a job that pays a living wage and has health insurance and paid time off - all of which are good for the rest of us who don’t want to support them and don’t want to see them get into lifestyles that harm us - like being homeless or engaging in drug related activities. Also many of these kids will become the people who are fixing your cars, cleaning your railway system, repairing your HVAC system and doing other jobs many don’t want to do and don’t want their kids doing.

If someone can't pass high school, I wouldn't want them fixing my car nor touching my HVAC system.
You are assuming that this sort of work does not require intelligence and thinking skills. They do and in fact most require passing, at minimum, vocational training. These are highly engineered machines they are handling.

I think the jobs you are referring to that don't require much intelligence is lawn care, janitorial services or delivering newspapers. At the upper end, maybe pipe fitting or welding.

I know many kids who D out of HS and go into things like auto repair and HVAC, which is why I used those fields as examples. People can be really highly skilled in an area yet really struggle in other areas. You don’t need to be able to pass a foreign language or high level English and math to repair cars and HVACs. If you think the people who are working on yours have that skill level, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

[Anonymous]

Making the legal drop out age 18 was a horrible idea. By 15-16 school should be the kids who want to be there. Drop out age should be 16

[Anonymous]

We need to lessen graduation requirements. There is no reason why a non college bound kid needs to pass algebra 2. That’s just torture, and a D is a kindness to let them graduate and go on to be a hair dresser or whatever they want to be.

[Anonymous]

Maybe this is an argument in favor of more vocational training! They're dumbing down school so that all can pass, but maybe that's not even what those kids want. We should have more vocational training for those who want it and more gifted/AP courses for those who want it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe this is an argument in favor of more vocational training! They're dumbing down school so that all can pass, but maybe that's not even what those kids want. We should have more vocational training for those who want it and more gifted/AP courses for those who want it.

There is vocational training, MC/UMC parents refuse to have their kid in it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is a worry that having kids repeat a grade increases the chance they will drop out before they graduate

why not just have the HS kid go to continuing education at community college? I think that's what they did back in my day, in the 80s.

A kid who graduates only reading at an ES level and can barely do math serves no one, least of all the kid.

[Anonymous]

Because they will drop out anyway. You can’t force an 18+ year old to attend school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a worry that having kids repeat a grade increases the chance they will drop out before they graduate

why not just have the HS kid go to continuing education at community college? I think that's what they did back in my day, in the 80s.

A kid who graduates only reading at an ES level and can barely do math serves no one, least of all the kid.

Kids do take part in that. You’re just not aware of it. See Edison HS in MCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a worry that having kids repeat a grade increases the chance they will drop out before they graduate

And people who ask this question and who advocate for eliminating the 50% rule and the like forget that HS graduation is good for all of us. Kids who could be held back and who rely on the 50% rule aren’t going to be competing for coveted college spots and financial aid. But without a HS diploma, it’s almost impossible to get a job that pays a living wage and has health insurance and paid time off - all of which are good for the rest of us who don’t want to support them and don’t want to see them get into lifestyles that harm us - like being homeless or engaging in drug related activities. Also many of these kids will become the people who are fixing your cars, cleaning your railway system, repairing your HVAC system and doing other jobs many don’t want to do and don’t want their kids doing.

If someone can't pass high school, I wouldn't want them fixing my car nor touching my HVAC system.
You are assuming that this sort of work does not require intelligence and thinking skills. They do and in fact most require passing, at minimum, vocational training. These are highly engineered machines they are handling.

I think the jobs you are referring to that don't require much intelligence is lawn care, janitorial services or delivering newspapers. At the upper end, maybe pipe fitting or welding.

I know many kids who D out of HS and go into things like auto repair and HVAC, which is why I used those fields as examples. People can be really highly skilled in an area yet really struggle in other areas. You don’t need to be able to pass a foreign language or high level English and math to repair cars and HVACs. If you think the people who are working on yours have that skill level, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

Precisely because the public education system, I don't trust most "repair" people.
I do a lot of research before I send in things for repair. And I ask questions of the people doing the work to get an idea of their competency and understanding.