Puglia, Italy = pretty rough

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have been to Puglia twice in the past decade, including last summer. I could not disagree more with OP. My family encountered friendly locals, beautiful towns, beaches etc. I am the first one to notice trash issues and this did not stick out to me at all. The trash and smells of NYC is 10x worse.
Always felt safe and never got ripped off. Prices are fair and food quality superb. Only one somewhat disappointing meal.
The city that was depressing for me was Milano. We stopped for a few days and I was utterly shocked by the graffiti all over the city. Building after building in the nicer parts of town had graffiti everywhere. That’s a tough city.

OP here. Interesting, thanks for sharing. Maybe COVID has been really rough on the place and the people, I don’t know. As I mentioned, one of the really awful things we experienced (although admittedly also in other parts of Italy this month) was the horrible air quality. Some of it seemed to be coming from industrial facilities (and I have seen online that air quality in Taranto for example is 10 times EU pollution standards), but also seemingly from locals burning wood to stay warm. I think that’s a symptom of the higher electricity prices and general energy crisis, but not something we have seen recently in any other European country. It made for a general haze and was hard on the lungs. And probably is making things dirtier too. And the general economic climate is probably not making the locals too happy, and perhaps leading to some more unsavory behaviors. Anyway, I’m glad others have enjoyed in the past, but just our very recent observations.

Well that’s dumb. What’s the alternative? Let Putin take Ukraine? I suppose some Italians might be cool with that.
PS, just to add to the above, one waiter actually said in a mocking voice “good luck with your war,” referring bizarrely to the Ukraine conflict. So it seems there could be some latent anger and hostility about that conflict and the economic impact it is having on locals. Obviously each European country has different subsidies and assistance, so maybe Italians are bearing the brunt more than others. It seems that some Europeans (and certainly not only the Italians, as the Germans also implied the same) are angry about Ukraine becoming some sort of US-Russia proxy war.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have been to Puglia twice in the past decade, including last summer. I could not disagree more with OP. My family encountered friendly locals, beautiful towns, beaches etc. I am the first one to notice trash issues and this did not stick out to me at all. The trash and smells of NYC is 10x worse.
Always felt safe and never got ripped off. Prices are fair and food quality superb. Only one somewhat disappointing meal.
The city that was depressing for me was Milano. We stopped for a few days and I was utterly shocked by the graffiti all over the city. Building after building in the nicer parts of town had graffiti everywhere. That’s a tough city.

OP here. Interesting, thanks for sharing. Maybe COVID has been really rough on the place and the people, I don’t know. As I mentioned, one of the really awful things we experienced (although admittedly also in other parts of Italy this month) was the horrible air quality. Some of it seemed to be coming from industrial facilities (and I have seen online that air quality in Taranto for example is 10 times EU pollution standards), but also seemingly from locals burning wood to stay warm. I think that’s a symptom of the higher electricity prices and general energy crisis, but not something we have seen recently in any other European country. It made for a general haze and was hard on the lungs. And probably is making things dirtier too. And the general economic climate is probably not making the locals too happy, and perhaps leading to some more unsavory behaviors. Anyway, I’m glad others have enjoyed in the past, but just our very recent observations.

PS, just to add to the above, one waiter actually said in a mocking voice “good luck with your war,” referring bizarrely to the Ukraine conflict. So it seems there could be some latent anger and hostility about that conflict and the economic impact it is having on locals. Obviously each European country has different subsidies and assistance, so maybe Italians are bearing the brunt more than others. It seems that some Europeans (and certainly not only the Italians, as the Germans also implied the same) are angry about Ukraine becoming some sort of US-Russia proxy war.

Italy now has a far right government and some portion of the population is pro Russia.

[Anonymous]

Everything OP wrote about Puglia could be said about Sicily. The trash everywhere is disgusting. If you stay in a luxury resort you won't remark the problem. But if you are traveling around and are visiting less touristy areas the trash is everywhere. I have visited townships in Namibia and people there are more competent to keep the evironment clean than people in southern Italy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have been to Puglia twice in the past decade, including last summer. I could not disagree more with OP. My family encountered friendly locals, beautiful towns, beaches etc. I am the first one to notice trash issues and this did not stick out to me at all. The trash and smells of NYC is 10x worse.
Always felt safe and never got ripped off. Prices are fair and food quality superb. Only one somewhat disappointing meal.
The city that was depressing for me was Milano. We stopped for a few days and I was utterly shocked by the graffiti all over the city. Building after building in the nicer parts of town had graffiti everywhere. That’s a tough city.

OP here. Interesting, thanks for sharing. Maybe COVID has been really rough on the place and the people, I don’t know. As I mentioned, one of the really awful things we experienced (although admittedly also in other parts of Italy this month) was the horrible air quality. Some of it seemed to be coming from industrial facilities (and I have seen online that air quality in Taranto for example is 10 times EU pollution standards), but also seemingly from locals burning wood to stay warm. I think that’s a symptom of the higher electricity prices and general energy crisis, but not something we have seen recently in any other European country. It made for a general haze and was hard on the lungs. And probably is making things dirtier too. And the general economic climate is probably not making the locals too happy, and perhaps leading to some more unsavory behaviors. Anyway, I’m glad others have enjoyed in the past, but just our very recent observations.

PS, just to add to the above, one waiter actually said in a mocking voice “good luck with your war,” referring bizarrely to the Ukraine conflict. So it seems there could be some latent anger and hostility about that conflict and the economic impact it is having on locals. Obviously each European country has different subsidies and assistance, so maybe Italians are bearing the brunt more than others. It seems that some Europeans (and certainly not only the Italians, as the Germans also implied the same) are angry about Ukraine becoming some sort of US-Russia proxy war.

Italy now has a far right government and some portion of the population is pro Russia.

OP here. That’s a good point. I do think the current right wing political climate in Italy is influencing the populace and their views on both the Ukraine conflict and Americans in general. Plus COVID had a major impact on the country of course. Emerging from that with sky high energy prices is not necessarily a recipe for good moods, and I think that contributed at least somewhat to the reception we received. Maybe we will give it another try someday, but probably not. Honestly, we just spent three very nice days in San Marino (a picture postcard little microstate with extremely friendly people), and now are back in the south of France which is always lovely.

[Anonymous]

I was in the countryside and smaller towns near Bari in April of this year, and while many buildings appear old, I also had fine business meetings in well-maintained structures. We had no issues with air quality.

I’d like to know more about where in Puglia you were.

[Anonymous]

Where do you go OP? We spent most of September in Puglia and had the exact opposite experience. Drove all over the region and met the most wonderful people, stayed in amazing Masserie, had incredible food and have the exact opposite experience that you had. All four of my grandparents and my father were from Italy and I've been travelling there since I was a small child. I'll admit that my family (from Emilia Romagna and Veneto) were northern Italian snobs, and I didn't start travelling to southern Italy until I was an adult over the past 15 years. Southern Italy has so much to offer and regions like Puglia and Abruzzo are simply wonderful. Puglia is currently the "it" region in Italy so I think most people disagree with you. I'd like to keep Abruzzo hidden as it is the most best-kept secret in Italy. But sooner or later it will be discovered by non-Italians.

I encourage people to travel there and see for themselves. September and October are glorious months to be in southern Italy.

+1
We went to Puglia in August and had a fantastic time. OP's post sounds like it is describing a totally different place than the one we visited. We loved visiting so many of the little towns, had an amazing cooking class in a beautiful commercial kitchen, rented a chartered boat for a day, spent time on different beaches, loved Alberobello - just a great place to vacation. We were told that Italians actually vacation in Puglia, where there are sandy beaches, while tourists visit the Amalfi coast.

[Anonymous]

It’s not an “earthiness” issue, I’m afraid. I’m fine with “earthy.” We have enjoyed many wonderful “earthy” vacations to places like Albania, Bosnia, Ecuador, Lebanon, Morocco, Nicaragua, Tunisia, Zambia, you name it. I wish it was just “earthy.”

My impression of Puglia/Basilicata is that there are two types of towns. The ridiculously touristy ones like Lecce, Matera, Monopoli, Ostuni, and many others where the people are ready and fully expecting to rip you off, as if it’s their birthright. Then there are the non or much less touristy places, like Altamura, Irsina, and countless other “regular” places where the people are not necessarily looking or expecting to see you, but if a foreigner and the opportunity presents itself, they will readily do so. It’s just incredible, especially in a Western EU country. So you either get fake “niceness” (which they really can’t even hide very well) in the tourist towns, or the unwelcoming hostility in what I would term the more “authentic” places. That’s a combination I just haven’t seen anywhere else.

And sorry, but it is disgusting. Trash everywhere. Putrid air. Hideous decaying buildings. To think Italy has been a Western EU country for decades and still has a sizable portion of its country in that state is an absolute disgrace. For comparison, we recently traveled through rural Croatia, Hungary, and Slovakia, all countries that faced Communism in our lifetimes and joined the EU well after Italy. And those countries are all up and coming (although still “earthy” to use your term). There really is no excuse for Italy, other than corruption, incompetence, and mismanagement. They do not deserve a pass on any of that.

Anyway, it’s no big deal, as this was just part of a larger trip.

I agree with the many posters who had great experiences in Puglia. OP, your posts are extremely negative and present an unbalanced view. Have you considered that your experience was colored by a tendency to see the worst in things?

[Anonymous]

I was last in Italy in 2019. I wonder how much has changed since. But the amalfi coast was god-awfully packed with tourists. Like sardines. That made the trip there miserable for us. Ugh. Loved Rome. But the smaller places were overrun with tourists.

No desire to return.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It’s not an “earthiness” issue, I’m afraid. I’m fine with “earthy.” We have enjoyed many wonderful “earthy” vacations to places like Albania, Bosnia, Ecuador, Lebanon, Morocco, Nicaragua, Tunisia, Zambia, you name it. I wish it was just “earthy.”

My impression of Puglia/Basilicata is that there are two types of towns. The ridiculously touristy ones like Lecce, Matera, Monopoli, Ostuni, and many others where the people are ready and fully expecting to rip you off, as if it’s their birthright. Then there are the non or much less touristy places, like Altamura, Irsina, and countless other “regular” places where the people are not necessarily looking or expecting to see you, but if a foreigner and the opportunity presents itself, they will readily do so. It’s just incredible, especially in a Western EU country. So you either get fake “niceness” (which they really can’t even hide very well) in the tourist towns, or the unwelcoming hostility in what I would term the more “authentic” places. That’s a combination I just haven’t seen anywhere else.

And sorry, but it is disgusting. Trash everywhere. Putrid air. Hideous decaying buildings. To think Italy has been a Western EU country for decades and still has a sizable portion of its country in that state is an absolute disgrace. For comparison, we recently traveled through rural Croatia, Hungary, and Slovakia, all countries that faced Communism in our lifetimes and joined the EU well after Italy. And those countries are all up and coming (although still “earthy” to use your term). There really is no excuse for Italy, other than corruption, incompetence, and mismanagement. They do not deserve a pass on any of that.

Anyway, it’s no big deal, as this was just part of a larger trip.

I agree with the many posters who had great experiences in Puglia. OP, your posts are extremely negative and present an unbalanced view. Have you considered that your experience was colored by a tendency to see the worst in things?

OP seems to be more positive about other places they've visited.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was last in Italy in 2019. I wonder how much has changed since. But the amalfi coast was god-awfully packed with tourists. Like sardines. That made the trip there miserable for us. Ugh. Loved Rome. But the smaller places were overrun with tourists.

No desire to return.

It’s only gotten worse. October now is what July used to be and July is ridiculous

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have been to Puglia twice in the past decade, including last summer. I could not disagree more with OP. My family encountered friendly locals, beautiful towns, beaches etc. I am the first one to notice trash issues and this did not stick out to me at all. The trash and smells of NYC is 10x worse.
Always felt safe and never got ripped off. Prices are fair and food quality superb. Only one somewhat disappointing meal.
The city that was depressing for me was Milano. We stopped for a few days and I was utterly shocked by the graffiti all over the city. Building after building in the nicer parts of town had graffiti everywhere. That’s a tough city.

OP here. Interesting, thanks for sharing. Maybe COVID has been really rough on the place and the people, I don’t know. As I mentioned, one of the really awful things we experienced (although admittedly also in other parts of Italy this month) was the horrible air quality. Some of it seemed to be coming from industrial facilities (and I have seen online that air quality in Taranto for example is 10 times EU pollution standards), but also seemingly from locals burning wood to stay warm. I think that’s a symptom of the higher electricity prices and general energy crisis, but not something we have seen recently in any other European country. It made for a general haze and was hard on the lungs. And probably is making things dirtier too. And the general economic climate is probably not making the locals too happy, and perhaps leading to some more unsavory behaviors. Anyway, I’m glad others have enjoyed in the past, but just our very recent observations.

PS, just to add to the above, one waiter actually said in a mocking voice “good luck with your war,” referring bizarrely to the Ukraine conflict. So it seems there could be some latent anger and hostility about that conflict and the economic impact it is having on locals. Obviously each European country has different subsidies and assistance, so maybe Italians are bearing the brunt more than others. It seems that some Europeans (and certainly not only the Italians, as the Germans also implied the same) are angry about Ukraine becoming some sort of US-Russia proxy war.

Italy now has a far right government and some portion of the population is pro Russia.

OP here. That’s a good point. I do think the current right wing political climate in Italy is influencing the populace and their views on both the Ukraine conflict and Americans in general. Plus COVID had a major impact on the country of course. Emerging from that with sky high energy prices is not necessarily a recipe for good moods, and I think that contributed at least somewhat to the reception we received. Maybe we will give it another try someday, but probably not. Honestly, we just spent three very nice days in San Marino (a picture postcard little microstate with extremely friendly people), and now are back in the south of France which is always lovely.

Yeah, just don't go back to Italy. Sounds like everyone will be happier.

[Anonymous]

I honestly felt that way about Rome and I've given it 2 chances. Scammers everywhere, people peeing all over the public side walks, trash piled up, it smells putrid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not denying southern Italy has some poor parts but no one visiting towns on the tourist itinerary in Puglia, at least in warm months, is going to be dealing with uncomfortable poverty.

I mean Matera was basically the shame of Italy 50 years ago and now it’s a tourist hot spot with a James Bond movie (not technically in Puglia of course).

OP here. Right, Matera is in neighboring Basilicata, but basically the same vibe. Anyway, I have no doubt a summer experience at the coast might be better then what we experienced in winter, but then again it would be very crowded in summer (not necessarily with Americans, but Europeans from literally every corner of the continent fly budget airlines to Bari and Brindisi in the summer). We have been to many Balkan countries (Albania, Croatia, Bosnia, Greece), North Africa, Central America, etc, and never have encountered the negative combination we found in Puglia and Basilicata. The trash, the unkempt towns, the massive potholes, the unfriendly people looking to steal from you, it all just made it not worth it. Prior to visiting Puglia, we spent several weeks in rural France, and were in rural Eastern Europe before that. Nothing compares with the hassles we experienced in southern Italy. I think even the locals admit that the corruption there is so rampant and endemic that it infects the entire society, and that certainly was our experience. I doubt Puglia will be a major destination for Americans anytime soon, but just thought I would mention as I have seen it discussed in these boards recently.

Where would you suggest in Italy or France? We like not crowded places. For e.g. we loved Tavira in Portugal

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It’s not an “earthiness” issue, I’m afraid. I’m fine with “earthy.” We have enjoyed many wonderful “earthy” vacations to places like Albania, Bosnia, Ecuador, Lebanon, Morocco, Nicaragua, Tunisia, Zambia, you name it. I wish it was just “earthy.”

My impression of Puglia/Basilicata is that there are two types of towns. The ridiculously touristy ones like Lecce, Matera, Monopoli, Ostuni, and many others where the people are ready and fully expecting to rip you off, as if it’s their birthright. Then there are the non or much less touristy places, like Altamura, Irsina, and countless other “regular” places where the people are not necessarily looking or expecting to see you, but if a foreigner and the opportunity presents itself, they will readily do so. It’s just incredible, especially in a Western EU country. So you either get fake “niceness” (which they really can’t even hide very well) in the tourist towns, or the unwelcoming hostility in what I would term the more “authentic” places. That’s a combination I just haven’t seen anywhere else.

And sorry, but it is disgusting. Trash everywhere. Putrid air. Hideous decaying buildings. To think Italy has been a Western EU country for decades and still has a sizable portion of its country in that state is an absolute disgrace. For comparison, we recently traveled through rural Croatia, Hungary, and Slovakia, all countries that faced Communism in our lifetimes and joined the EU well after Italy. And those countries are all up and coming (although still “earthy” to use your term). There really is no excuse for Italy, other than corruption, incompetence, and mismanagement. They do not deserve a pass on any of that.

Anyway, it’s no big deal, as this was just part of a larger trip.

I agree with the many posters who had great experiences in Puglia. OP, your posts are extremely negative and present an unbalanced view. Have you considered that your experience was colored by a tendency to see the worst in things?

OP seems to be more positive about other places they've visited.

OP here. Yes, I love pretty much everywhere, including places that some others hate. That’s what made Puglia so surprising, as I just couldn’t find anything redeeming about it. As I said, it was either tourist traps that had been cleaned up a bit, or non touristy places that were unkempt and nasty where they also didn’t want to see or deal with you.

I could very easily overlook trash and subpar infrastructure if that’s the best the people could do with their limited resources, as is so often the case in the developing world. But that’s not what’s going on in southern Italy. The people are doing the exact opposite. They’re doing the worst they can with significant national and EU resources simply because it is pilfered and stolen on both a small and large level. There is no excuse for that, and sadly it creates an “every man for himself” attitude that colors interactions with visitors. Couple that with a return to extreme right wing partisan politics, and I’m out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not denying southern Italy has some poor parts but no one visiting towns on the tourist itinerary in Puglia, at least in warm months, is going to be dealing with uncomfortable poverty.

I mean Matera was basically the shame of Italy 50 years ago and now it’s a tourist hot spot with a James Bond movie (not technically in Puglia of course).

OP here. Right, Matera is in neighboring Basilicata, but basically the same vibe. Anyway, I have no doubt a summer experience at the coast might be better then what we experienced in winter, but then again it would be very crowded in summer (not necessarily with Americans, but Europeans from literally every corner of the continent fly budget airlines to Bari and Brindisi in the summer). We have been to many Balkan countries (Albania, Croatia, Bosnia, Greece), North Africa, Central America, etc, and never have encountered the negative combination we found in Puglia and Basilicata. The trash, the unkempt towns, the massive potholes, the unfriendly people looking to steal from you, it all just made it not worth it. Prior to visiting Puglia, we spent several weeks in rural France, and were in rural Eastern Europe before that. Nothing compares with the hassles we experienced in southern Italy. I think even the locals admit that the corruption there is so rampant and endemic that it infects the entire society, and that certainly was our experience. I doubt Puglia will be a major destination for Americans anytime soon, but just thought I would mention as I have seen it discussed in these boards recently.

Where would you suggest in Italy or France? We like not crowded places. For e.g. we loved Tavira in Portugal

OP here. For France, the options are endless. The Dordogne and Bordeaux are nice. Burgundy (Dijon, Beaune) is another option. Of course there’s Provence and Côte d’Azur. Brittany up north is very nice (Dinan, Vannes, St Malo). Normandy and Rouen closer to Paris, as well as Reims in the Champagne region. Strasbourg in Alsace and Metz in Lorraine are great. It’s a fantastic country.

I am much less helpful on Italy, obviously. I went to Puglia and Basilicata hoping to find an off the beaten path region, and look what happened. I did enjoy Trieste on one occasion, and it sounds like Abruzzo is worth checking out. As I mentioned, San Marino is lovely (although another country). After this debacle, I don’t see myself making it to Calabria .