How do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m a high school teacher and last month I had a little talk with one of my best students. She had proudly come to tell me that she wants to be a teacher. I strongly advised her to reconsider: as I explained, parents and students do not respect teachers, and she will be mocked, derided, and second-guessed on a near-regular basis at work. She was actually said that she is aware of the way her classmates and their parents treat teachers and talk to/about them, but had “though it didn’t bother the teachers.” I told her, quite bluntly, that on some days it bothers me quite a lot. Occasionally I cry when I get home.

I also explained that during the beginning of the pandemic, I became fully aware of just how little teachers are respected.

I am sure some of you will now tell me I am a bad teacher and should quit because the profession doesn’t need me. I assure you that I am considered one of the best teachers in our department. I have a degree from Harvard, and this impresses parents enough that they actually treat me slightly better than some of my equally-deserving colleagues. But if I could go back, I would choose another career.

I hate the disrespect, entitlement, grade-grubbing and attempts by parents to bully me into inflating their darlings’ grades, and the sheer volume of work I am expected to accomplish outside of school.

I began my career starry-eyed with enthusiasm. 16 years of pushy, disrespectful parents, plus one pandemic in which it was made clear that I was expected to sacrifice myself for other people’s children (while these people “worked from home” themselves), and I now hate my job. If I could think of a way to transition into a new career now, I would, but I can’t.

Oh, and I would like to add that my favorite professor at Harvard warned me that I was “wasting myself” if I went into teaching. He was correct.

I don’t think it is possible to change the system so that the best and brightest will want to go into teaching because you would have to change society as well. This is where we are right now. Teaching is a thankless, low-paying, slave ship of a career and I discourage any student who tells me he/she is considering it.

[Anonymous]

Idk man, aside from the occasional DCUM poster, mostly I see teachers being lauded, sometimes to a fault.

I think probably there's a widescale problem with admins -- regardless of your education or your job, if you've got a bad boss, your job sucks. Do admins actually get any management training? In my profession, the managers just move up from the ranks. Being in the ranks doesn't at all mean you understand how to manage people.

[Anonymous]

Universities and colleges need to step up their own programs for educating teachers and design degree programs that will help create teachers that are capable of teaching AND managing a classroom.

All teachers should take multiple classes on teach students with the most widely diagnosed learning disabilities, emotional disabilities and physical disabilities. In other words, "special education" as a specialization should become way more specialized and the general course should be shifted to all teachers.

Improve teacher reading and writing instruction courses.

Require a course in project management and a course in professional communication strategies.

Create student teaching opportunities far earlier and far more often.

Require several course with student teaching of class room behavior management techniques.

Then once they do all that and up the profile of their own programs, make teaching a direct admit program similar to Nursing.

States need to be more proactive in their own requirements for teaching licensure. I think the PP suggesting an internship has the right idea. Or some kind of paid supervised pathway to full licensure. And supervised meaning, they are with another teacher in the classroom full time for at least a year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Universities and colleges need to step up their own programs for educating teachers and design degree programs that will help create teachers that are capable of teaching AND managing a classroom.

All teachers should take multiple classes on teach students with the most widely diagnosed learning disabilities, emotional disabilities and physical disabilities. In other words, "special education" as a specialization should become way more specialized and the general course should be shifted to all teachers.

Improve teacher reading and writing instruction courses.

Require a course in project management and a course in professional communication strategies.

Create student teaching opportunities far earlier and far more often.

Require several course with student teaching of class room behavior management techniques.

Then once they do all that and up the profile of their own programs, make teaching a direct admit program similar to Nursing.

States need to be more proactive in their own requirements for teaching licensure. I think the PP suggesting an internship has the right idea. Or some kind of paid supervised pathway to full licensure. And supervised meaning, they are with another teacher in the classroom full time for at least a year.

Universities and colleges could have great programs, it's irrelevant if you can't pay off your student loans as a teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m aware that this is a touchy subject. I know there’s also debate over whether teachers should be getting subject matter degrees then specializing in education in a master’s program, versus majoring in education as an undergraduate. My opinion is that that would need to take into account credential inflation and that students would need to pay more to become teachers than they previously needed to. Currently, universities that were historically and continue to ones that produce teachers have low average SAT scores, graduation rates and other factors.

Pay at entry level needs to go up a bit but at experienced level needs to be between 100k and 150k. Until we are ready to pay that we will not get more top people in teaching. Do we need to pay that to attrack enough teachers? No not at all. But pay is the key not so much entry as down the line. Tough to tell a 22 year old with options to take the less paying one with no real growth. You don't need to match high comp but you need to get in a ball park where a 22 year old sees this as a future.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m aware that this is a touchy subject. I know there’s also debate over whether teachers should be getting subject matter degrees then specializing in education in a master’s program, versus majoring in education as an undergraduate. My opinion is that that would need to take into account credential inflation and that students would need to pay more to become teachers than they previously needed to. Currently, universities that were historically and continue to ones that produce teachers have low average SAT scores, graduation rates and other factors.

Pay at entry level needs to go up a bit but at experienced level needs to be between 100k and 150k. Until we are ready to pay that we will not get more top people in teaching. Do we need to pay that to attrack enough teachers? No not at all. But pay is the key not so much entry as down the line. Tough to tell a 22 year old with options to take the less paying one with no real growth. You don't need to match high comp but you need to get in a ball park where a 22 year old sees this as a future.

There are plenty of areas where experienced teachers are making 6 figures (and this is working only 10 months a year) and getting pensions. Salary is not the only issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Universities and colleges need to step up their own programs for educating teachers and design degree programs that will help create teachers that are capable of teaching AND managing a classroom.

All teachers should take multiple classes on teach students with the most widely diagnosed learning disabilities, emotional disabilities and physical disabilities. In other words, "special education" as a specialization should become way more specialized and the general course should be shifted to all teachers.

Improve teacher reading and writing instruction courses.

Require a course in project management and a course in professional communication strategies.

Create student teaching opportunities far earlier and far more often.

Require several course with student teaching of class room behavior management techniques.

Then once they do all that and up the profile of their own programs, make teaching a direct admit program similar to Nursing.

States need to be more proactive in their own requirements for teaching licensure. I think the PP suggesting an internship has the right idea. Or some kind of paid supervised pathway to full licensure. And supervised meaning, they are with another teacher in the classroom full time for at least a year.

Universities and colleges could have great programs, it's irrelevant if you can't pay off your student loans as a teacher.

No, I don't think all universities and colleges have great programs. And there are many affordable public colleges and universities in many states .

And yes, I do think that teacher pay does need to be increased.

[Anonymous]

I think recruiting top academic students is the wrong approach. Instead, give young people the opportunity to serve in some classroom support role and recruit those who love the work and have a satisfactory academic record. Get rid of barriers for solid students who love the work but can't pass praxis exams.

I know amazing teachers who were middling students and amazing students who are not good teachers. In addition, there is the TFA problem where you recruit top students and they put in as little time as possible in the classroom and they move into administrative or education adjacent positions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
One way that top students can be steered into public school teaching is through Teach for America. It's how one of my kids -- an honors graduate of a top 10 liberal arts college -- entered the field. While many TFA alums move on to other things, some don't -- including my kid and several others who I know well.

In the case of my kid, though, she was able to stay in the profession notwithstanding the relatively low pay because (1) she had no student loans and (2) her husband -- a graduate of the same college but with a less impressive college transcript -- went into private industry and almost immediately began making more money than her.

Teach for America really devalues the importance of training to creating effective teachers. I am sure your daughter and her friends have the best of intentions, but you don't learn to teach by going through a a brief course the summer before you're plunked into a classroom. And most of the TFA alumni I know didn't go back to learn how to teach. Some of them went to get MEds so they could go into administration, because those who can't do administrate.

Which gets to one of the main things that drive people from the profession: Being overseen and evaluated by things that don't reflect your ability by people who don't understand your job. That, and the low pay, are going to drain the pool of talent faster than anything else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Universities and colleges need to step up their own programs for educating teachers and design degree programs that will help create teachers that are capable of teaching AND managing a classroom.

All teachers should take multiple classes on teach students with the most widely diagnosed learning disabilities, emotional disabilities and physical disabilities. In other words, "special education" as a specialization should become way more specialized and the general course should be shifted to all teachers.

Improve teacher reading and writing instruction courses.

Require a course in project management and a course in professional communication strategies.

Create student teaching opportunities far earlier and far more often.

Require several course with student teaching of class room behavior management techniques.

Then once they do all that and up the profile of their own programs, make teaching a direct admit program similar to Nursing.

States need to be more proactive in their own requirements for teaching licensure. I think the PP suggesting an internship has the right idea. Or some kind of paid supervised pathway to full licensure. And supervised meaning, they are with another teacher in the classroom full time for at least a year.

Universities and colleges could have great programs, it's irrelevant if you can't pay off your student loans as a teacher.

No, I don't think all universities and colleges have great programs. And there are many affordable public colleges and universities in many states .

And yes, I do think that teacher pay does need to be increased.

There are tons of affordable programs and there is little reason to attend an expensive school over Longwood if the goal is teaching. No one in their right mind is paying 80k a year for an amazing education and then going into teaching unless they come from a very wealthy family

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:-Make teaching fun again. Roll back bureaucracy and unnecessary tests.
-Principals need to address classroom disciplinary issues. That's the #1 complaint I hear from friends who are teachers. When issues arise, principals don't have their back. One had her classroom evacuated multiple times a week due to the same student.

I think you'll get responses about pay, but I don't even think that's the biggest issue.

Yes, this, plus the comments a few notches down about enforcing consequences and requiring administrators to get in the classroom.

One of my kids wants to become a teacher. She's not a "top" student, but she's a good one. She's kind, compassionate, and energetic. She'll be an amazing teacher. In general, I think people who weren't perfect students themselves are probably best equipped to understand how to reach a wide range of learners.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Universities and colleges need to step up their own programs for educating teachers and design degree programs that will help create teachers that are capable of teaching AND managing a classroom.

All teachers should take multiple classes on teach students with the most widely diagnosed learning disabilities, emotional disabilities and physical disabilities. In other words, "special education" as a specialization should become way more specialized and the general course should be shifted to all teachers.

Improve teacher reading and writing instruction courses.

Require a course in project management and a course in professional communication strategies.

Create student teaching opportunities far earlier and far more often.

Require several course with student teaching of class room behavior management techniques.

Then once they do all that and up the profile of their own programs, make teaching a direct admit program similar to Nursing.

States need to be more proactive in their own requirements for teaching licensure. I think the PP suggesting an internship has the right idea. Or some kind of paid supervised pathway to full licensure. And supervised meaning, they are with another teacher in the classroom full time for at least a year.

Universities and colleges could have great programs, it's irrelevant if you can't pay off your student loans as a teacher.

No, I don't think all universities and colleges have great programs. And there are many affordable public colleges and universities in many states .

And yes, I do think that teacher pay does need to be increased.

No one said “all universities and colleges have great programs.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
One way that top students can be steered into public school teaching is through Teach for America. It's how one of my kids -- an honors graduate of a top 10 liberal arts college -- entered the field. While many TFA alums move on to other things, some don't -- including my kid and several others who I know well.

In the case of my kid, though, she was able to stay in the profession notwithstanding the relatively low pay because (1) she had no student loans and (2) her husband -- a graduate of the same college but with a less impressive college transcript -- went into private industry and almost immediately began making more money than her.

Teach for America really devalues the importance of training to creating effective teachers. I am sure your daughter and her friends have the best of intentions, but you don't learn to teach by going through a a brief course the summer before you're plunked into a classroom. And most of the TFA alumni I know didn't go back to learn how to teach. Some of them went to get MEds so they could go into administration, because those who can't do administrate.

Which gets to one of the main things that drive people from the profession: Being overseen and evaluated by things that don't reflect your ability by people who don't understand your job. That, and the low pay, are going to drain the pool of talent faster than anything else.

TFA is the epitome of white saviorism.

[Anonymous]

Teachers don't have autonomy. Their judgment isn't respected. Test scores drive everything. And it just sucks all the air out the room. And the pay, for the amount of education, is not worth it long term.

Maybe if it was like nursing and teachers could be like travel nurses and make 300K a year if they worked in hard schools. That might work to get young people with other options in the profession.

But really, it's money. Pay teachers more (like a lot more) and you'll see droves of people running to teach.

-TFA alum who works in corporate training and makes 180K a year.

[Anonymous]

My daughter was a NMS. Full academic scholarship to an outstanding school. She started out pre-med. She did some work with at-risk children of parents seeking asylum. She was there to observe and take data, but fell in love with working with children with exceptionalities. She switched her major to special education. She has been teaching for seven years. Just made the move to behavioral specialist. She is incredibly passionate about what she does.

But yes. Raising salaries would be a good start in recruiting more high achieving students into teaching.