How do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess she has to say this about her daughter to mask her disappointment that she went into teaching.

I'm not even remotely disappointed that she went into teaching. To the contrary, I'm immensely proud of her. I also don't care how smart she is or that she's smarter than the typical teacher who went the traditional route. I'm just telling it like it is: the typical public school teacher does not have her high school GPA, SAT scores, or elite private school education.

They don't need them anyway. Teaching requires a different skill set.

I neither agree nor disagree with you. But, again, that's a different thread. This thread, for the fifteenth time, is called "how do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?" And if that's the question, then TFA is one way to do that. You may not like it, and that's fine, but it is by definition one way to do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
One way that top students can be steered into public school teaching is through Teach for America. It's how one of my kids -- an honors graduate of a top 10 liberal arts college -- entered the field. While many TFA alums move on to other things, some don't -- including my kid and several others who I know well.

In the case of my kid, though, she was able to stay in the profession notwithstanding the relatively low pay because (1) she had no student loans and (2) her husband -- a graduate of the same college but with a less impressive college transcript -- went into private industry and almost immediately began making more money than her.

Teach for America really devalues the importance of training to creating effective teachers. I am sure your daughter and her friends have the best of intentions, but you don't learn to teach by going through a a brief course the summer before you're plunked into a classroom. And most of the TFA alumni I know didn't go back to learn how to teach. Some of them went to get MEds so they could go into administration, because those who can't do administrate.

Which gets to one of the main things that drive people from the profession: Being overseen and evaluated by things that don't reflect your ability by people who don't understand your job. That, and the low pay, are going to drain the pool of talent faster than anything else.

Teach for America teachers are college graduates who are required to enroll in graduate school to get a master's in teaching at the same time that they are "plunked into a classroom." You left a critical part of the program out when you were disparaging it. How much "training" does your typical college graduate with a bachelor's in teaching have before they're "plunked" into a classroom?

I had three 6 month long placements in three different classrooms as an undergrad. My TFA colleague had never been around kids prior to her first teaching gig. Big difference.

Right. And that's great. But the question originally posted was "how do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?" How many public school teachers who went your route had "high SATs and GPAs" in high school and were "top students?" All of the available statistics would suggest that the answer is very few. I'm not surprised you'd take offense that others ended up in your profession by going a different route. No, TFA isn't perfect -- far from it, in fact -- and yes, the program starts its participants off with less classroom experience that the typical first year teacher who went the traditional route, but TFA participants are, by and large, more driven than most college graduates and certainly, well, if I have to say it, "smarter" than your typical traditionally trained and educated teacher. AND, as I said, they're also required to get their master's degrees in education while they are working. It's not like they just hire a history major from Tufts and throw them in a classroom with zero training and zero expectation that they'll get any formal education or degree in teaching.

I personally know of several high school and college superstars who got into teaching through TFA and are sticking with it and prospering in the DMV. Honestly, and with all respect, the one issue that my daughter has sheepishly confided in me about the problems she faces in her day-to-day dealings with her colleagues and administrators is that she is obviously "smarter" than most of them. She certainly doesn't think that makes her "better" as a human being or anything like that, but she is certainly dealing with a less intellectually capable group of colleagues on a day-to-day basis as a public school teacher than she did as a college student at an elite college.

I don't really care if others are smarter than I am. TFA teachers almost always end up quitting in my district (some make it to the end of the year but most don't). I don't need to be the smartest person in the room to teach 5-6 yr olds. I need other skills that most people do not possess. How do you attract top students? You don't because they aren't interested unless they can't figure out what to do with their lives so they go into TFA. Students don't need the smartest teachers. They need skilled teachers with a lot of patience and compassion.

That's great that you feel that way. But you should start another thread. This subject of this thread is "how do we get top students to enter public school teaching?" It isn't "how do we get skilled teachers with a lot of patience and compassion?"

DP but this post was in a response to promoting TFA as a means to get “top students” into teaching. I think a counter argument is pretty reasonable

Not if the counter argument is effectively "I disagree that we need top students teaching, what we need are ones with patience and compassion."

Maybe, but I’m a title 1 teacher who got a 1510 on their SATs, graduated summa cum laude both undergrad and my M. ED that I got while doing my TFA 2 years. I’m now in year ten and one other person in my cohort is still teaching.

All those academic accolades are not at all helpful to working in a school so maybe that’s now how we want to look at solving the problem. I stunk and was a hindrance to kids for at least my first 3-5 years; all the Calc BC and Org Chem mastery in the world doesnt matter if you can’t control a class

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess she has to say this about her daughter to mask her disappointment that she went into teaching.

I'm not even remotely disappointed that she went into teaching. To the contrary, I'm immensely proud of her. I also don't care how smart she is or that she's smarter than the typical teacher who went the traditional route. I'm just telling it like it is: the typical public school teacher does not have her high school GPA, SAT scores, or elite private school education.

They don't need them anyway. Teaching requires a different skill set.

I neither agree nor disagree with you. But, again, that's a different thread. This thread, for the fifteenth time, is called "how do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?" And if that's the question, then TFA is one way to do that. You may not like it, and that's fine, but it is by definition one way to do it.

Why is this something that should be done? What is your hangup about this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Honestly, and with all respect, the one issue that my daughter has sheepishly confided in me about the problems she faces in her day-to-day dealings with her colleagues and administrators is that she is obviously "smarter" than most of them. She certainly doesn't think that makes her "better" as a human being or anything like that, but she is certainly dealing with a less intellectually capable group of colleagues on a day-to-day basis as a public school teacher than she did as a college student at an elite college."

I have some big concerns about anyone who believes that they are smarter than other people or thinks of others as less intellectually capable. ESPECIALLY in education. If she believes this of her colleagues (at what? all of 24-28 years old?), she is most certainly thinking the same things of her students. That's a whole lotta arrogance going on. And quite frankly, NO ONE cares that your daughter went to what you call an "elite college". Years have a way of humbling folks. I know I thought I knew it all back in my twenties. Now, I'm in my 50's and it is very clear to me just how much I have yet to learn. I hope your daughter will learn and grow in a way where she no longer sees colleagues as "less smart" and learns to see the world in a less self centered way. Teaching is all about caring for people exactly as they are.

So, she's 32-34? Give her two more decades and see how she feels then. "Elite" college does not=smarter no matter how much you think it does.
And one more thing: my daughter is not "24-28" years old. She's been teaching for well over a decade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess she has to say this about her daughter to mask her disappointment that she went into teaching.

I'm not even remotely disappointed that she went into teaching. To the contrary, I'm immensely proud of her. I also don't care how smart she is or that she's smarter than the typical teacher who went the traditional route. I'm just telling it like it is: the typical public school teacher does not have her high school GPA, SAT scores, or elite private school education.

They don't need them anyway. Teaching requires a different skill set.

I neither agree nor disagree with you. But, again, that's a different thread. This thread, for the fifteenth time, is called "how do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?" And if that's the question, then TFA is one way to do that. You may not like it, and that's fine, but it is by definition one way to do it.

Why is this something that should be done? What is your hangup about this?

Are you asking the OP or me? All I'm doing is responding to OP's question. It's not my "hang up."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
One way that top students can be steered into public school teaching is through Teach for America. It's how one of my kids -- an honors graduate of a top 10 liberal arts college -- entered the field. While many TFA alums move on to other things, some don't -- including my kid and several others who I know well.

In the case of my kid, though, she was able to stay in the profession notwithstanding the relatively low pay because (1) she had no student loans and (2) her husband -- a graduate of the same college but with a less impressive college transcript -- went into private industry and almost immediately began making more money than her.

Teach for America really devalues the importance of training to creating effective teachers. I am sure your daughter and her friends have the best of intentions, but you don't learn to teach by going through a a brief course the summer before you're plunked into a classroom. And most of the TFA alumni I know didn't go back to learn how to teach. Some of them went to get MEds so they could go into administration, because those who can't do administrate.

Which gets to one of the main things that drive people from the profession: Being overseen and evaluated by things that don't reflect your ability by people who don't understand your job. That, and the low pay, are going to drain the pool of talent faster than anything else.

Teach for America teachers are college graduates who are required to enroll in graduate school to get a master's in teaching at the same time that they are "plunked into a classroom." You left a critical part of the program out when you were disparaging it. How much "training" does your typical college graduate with a bachelor's in teaching have before they're "plunked" into a classroom?

I had three 6 month long placements in three different classrooms as an undergrad. My TFA colleague had never been around kids prior to her first teaching gig. Big difference.

Right. And that's great. But the question originally posted was "how do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?" How many public school teachers who went your route had "high SATs and GPAs" in high school and were "top students?" All of the available statistics would suggest that the answer is very few. I'm not surprised you'd take offense that others ended up in your profession by going a different route. No, TFA isn't perfect -- far from it, in fact -- and yes, the program starts its participants off with less classroom experience that the typical first year teacher who went the traditional route, but TFA participants are, by and large, more driven than most college graduates and certainly, well, if I have to say it, "smarter" than your typical traditionally trained and educated teacher. AND, as I said, they're also required to get their master's degrees in education while they are working. It's not like they just hire a history major from Tufts and throw them in a classroom with zero training and zero expectation that they'll get any formal education or degree in teaching.

I personally know of several high school and college superstars who got into teaching through TFA and are sticking with it and prospering in the DMV. Honestly, and with all respect, the one issue that my daughter has sheepishly confided in me about the problems she faces in her day-to-day dealings with her colleagues and administrators is that she is obviously "smarter" than most of them. She certainly doesn't think that makes her "better" as a human being or anything like that, but she is certainly dealing with a less intellectually capable group of colleagues on a day-to-day basis as a public school teacher than she did as a college student at an elite college.

I don't really care if others are smarter than I am. TFA teachers almost always end up quitting in my district (some make it to the end of the year but most don't). I don't need to be the smartest person in the room to teach 5-6 yr olds. I need other skills that most people do not possess. How do you attract top students? You don't because they aren't interested unless they can't figure out what to do with their lives so they go into TFA. Students don't need the smartest teachers. They need skilled teachers with a lot of patience and compassion.

That's great that you feel that way. But you should start another thread. This subject of this thread is "how do we get top students to enter public school teaching?" It isn't "how do we get skilled teachers with a lot of patience and compassion?"

DP but this post was in a response to promoting TFA as a means to get “top students” into teaching. I think a counter argument is pretty reasonable

Not if the counter argument is effectively "I disagree that we need top students teaching, what we need are ones with patience and compassion."

Maybe, but I’m a title 1 teacher who got a 1510 on their SATs, graduated summa cum laude both undergrad and my M. ED that I got while doing my TFA 2 years. I’m now in year ten and one other person in my cohort is still teaching.

All those academic accolades are not at all helpful to working in a school so maybe that’s now how we want to look at solving the problem. I stunk and was a hindrance to kids for at least my first 3-5 years; all the Calc BC and Org Chem mastery in the world doesnt matter if you can’t control a class

Would you agree that you're "smarter" in terms of SAT scores and high school/college achievement that the typical public school teacher who went the traditional route into the profession?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
One way that top students can be steered into public school teaching is through Teach for America. It's how one of my kids -- an honors graduate of a top 10 liberal arts college -- entered the field. While many TFA alums move on to other things, some don't -- including my kid and several others who I know well.

In the case of my kid, though, she was able to stay in the profession notwithstanding the relatively low pay because (1) she had no student loans and (2) her husband -- a graduate of the same college but with a less impressive college transcript -- went into private industry and almost immediately began making more money than her.

Teach for America really devalues the importance of training to creating effective teachers. I am sure your daughter and her friends have the best of intentions, but you don't learn to teach by going through a a brief course the summer before you're plunked into a classroom. And most of the TFA alumni I know didn't go back to learn how to teach. Some of them went to get MEds so they could go into administration, because those who can't do administrate.

Which gets to one of the main things that drive people from the profession: Being overseen and evaluated by things that don't reflect your ability by people who don't understand your job. That, and the low pay, are going to drain the pool of talent faster than anything else.

Teach for America teachers are college graduates who are required to enroll in graduate school to get a master's in teaching at the same time that they are "plunked into a classroom." You left a critical part of the program out when you were disparaging it. How much "training" does your typical college graduate with a bachelor's in teaching have before they're "plunked" into a classroom?

I had three 6 month long placements in three different classrooms as an undergrad. My TFA colleague had never been around kids prior to her first teaching gig. Big difference.

Right. And that's great. But the question originally posted was "how do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?" How many public school teachers who went your route had "high SATs and GPAs" in high school and were "top students?" All of the available statistics would suggest that the answer is very few. I'm not surprised you'd take offense that others ended up in your profession by going a different route. No, TFA isn't perfect -- far from it, in fact -- and yes, the program starts its participants off with less classroom experience that the typical first year teacher who went the traditional route, but TFA participants are, by and large, more driven than most college graduates and certainly, well, if I have to say it, "smarter" than your typical traditionally trained and educated teacher. AND, as I said, they're also required to get their master's degrees in education while they are working. It's not like they just hire a history major from Tufts and throw them in a classroom with zero training and zero expectation that they'll get any formal education or degree in teaching.

I personally know of several high school and college superstars who got into teaching through TFA and are sticking with it and prospering in the DMV. Honestly, and with all respect, the one issue that my daughter has sheepishly confided in me about the problems she faces in her day-to-day dealings with her colleagues and administrators is that she is obviously "smarter" than most of them. She certainly doesn't think that makes her "better" as a human being or anything like that, but she is certainly dealing with a less intellectually capable group of colleagues on a day-to-day basis as a public school teacher than she did as a college student at an elite college.

I don't really care if others are smarter than I am. TFA teachers almost always end up quitting in my district (some make it to the end of the year but most don't). I don't need to be the smartest person in the room to teach 5-6 yr olds. I need other skills that most people do not possess. How do you attract top students? You don't because they aren't interested unless they can't figure out what to do with their lives so they go into TFA. Students don't need the smartest teachers. They need skilled teachers with a lot of patience and compassion.

That's great that you feel that way. But you should start another thread. This subject of this thread is "how do we get top students to enter public school teaching?" It isn't "how do we get skilled teachers with a lot of patience and compassion?"

DP but this post was in a response to promoting TFA as a means to get “top students” into teaching. I think a counter argument is pretty reasonable

Not if the counter argument is effectively "I disagree that we need top students teaching, what we need are ones with patience and compassion."

Maybe, but I’m a title 1 teacher who got a 1510 on their SATs, graduated summa cum laude both undergrad and my M. ED that I got while doing my TFA 2 years. I’m now in year ten and one other person in my cohort is still teaching.

All those academic accolades are not at all helpful to working in a school so maybe that’s now how we want to look at solving the problem. I stunk and was a hindrance to kids for at least my first 3-5 years; all the Calc BC and Org Chem mastery in the world doesnt matter if you can’t control a class

Would you agree that you're "smarter" in terms of SAT scores and high school/college achievement that the typical public school teacher who went the traditional route into the profession?

Maybe? IDK I also think standardized testing isn't a true barometer of "smartness" and there are many ways to express aptitude.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
One way that top students can be steered into public school teaching is through Teach for America. It's how one of my kids -- an honors graduate of a top 10 liberal arts college -- entered the field. While many TFA alums move on to other things, some don't -- including my kid and several others who I know well.

In the case of my kid, though, she was able to stay in the profession notwithstanding the relatively low pay because (1) she had no student loans and (2) her husband -- a graduate of the same college but with a less impressive college transcript -- went into private industry and almost immediately began making more money than her.

Teach for America really devalues the importance of training to creating effective teachers. I am sure your daughter and her friends have the best of intentions, but you don't learn to teach by going through a a brief course the summer before you're plunked into a classroom. And most of the TFA alumni I know didn't go back to learn how to teach. Some of them went to get MEds so they could go into administration, because those who can't do administrate.

Which gets to one of the main things that drive people from the profession: Being overseen and evaluated by things that don't reflect your ability by people who don't understand your job. That, and the low pay, are going to drain the pool of talent faster than anything else.

Teach for America teachers are college graduates who are required to enroll in graduate school to get a master's in teaching at the same time that they are "plunked into a classroom." You left a critical part of the program out when you were disparaging it. How much "training" does your typical college graduate with a bachelor's in teaching have before they're "plunked" into a classroom?

I had three 6 month long placements in three different classrooms as an undergrad. My TFA colleague had never been around kids prior to her first teaching gig. Big difference.

Right. And that's great. But the question originally posted was "how do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?" How many public school teachers who went your route had "high SATs and GPAs" in high school and were "top students?" All of the available statistics would suggest that the answer is very few. I'm not surprised you'd take offense that others ended up in your profession by going a different route. No, TFA isn't perfect -- far from it, in fact -- and yes, the program starts its participants off with less classroom experience that the typical first year teacher who went the traditional route, but TFA participants are, by and large, more driven than most college graduates and certainly, well, if I have to say it, "smarter" than your typical traditionally trained and educated teacher. AND, as I said, they're also required to get their master's degrees in education while they are working. It's not like they just hire a history major from Tufts and throw them in a classroom with zero training and zero expectation that they'll get any formal education or degree in teaching.

I personally know of several high school and college superstars who got into teaching through TFA and are sticking with it and prospering in the DMV. Honestly, and with all respect, the one issue that my daughter has sheepishly confided in me about the problems she faces in her day-to-day dealings with her colleagues and administrators is that she is obviously "smarter" than most of them. She certainly doesn't think that makes her "better" as a human being or anything like that, but she is certainly dealing with a less intellectually capable group of colleagues on a day-to-day basis as a public school teacher than she did as a college student at an elite college.

I don't really care if others are smarter than I am. TFA teachers almost always end up quitting in my district (some make it to the end of the year but most don't). I don't need to be the smartest person in the room to teach 5-6 yr olds. I need other skills that most people do not possess. How do you attract top students? You don't because they aren't interested unless they can't figure out what to do with their lives so they go into TFA. Students don't need the smartest teachers. They need skilled teachers with a lot of patience and compassion.

That's great that you feel that way. But you should start another thread. This subject of this thread is "how do we get top students to enter public school teaching?" It isn't "how do we get skilled teachers with a lot of patience and compassion?"

DP but this post was in a response to promoting TFA as a means to get “top students” into teaching. I think a counter argument is pretty reasonable

Not if the counter argument is effectively "I disagree that we need top students teaching, what we need are ones with patience and compassion."

I think the counter argument is that grades and test scores aren't an effective way to identify who will be the best teachers -- it's finding and supporting people who understand that mere intelligence doesn't determine your success as a teacher. It's a combination of aptitude, training, and support, and the humility to know that you need them. And that's where TFA fails. Some students will be interested and capable of becoming good teachers despite the TFA model. None of them will do so because of it.

[Anonymous]

Top students shouldn’t enter teaching unless they love it. It’s a waste of their brain power. If you look at the studies, teachers don’t make much of a difference in kid outcomes. Hard working, well trained, entertaining, happy teachers are more important than brainiacs, who would get bored anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
One way that top students can be steered into public school teaching is through Teach for America. It's how one of my kids -- an honors graduate of a top 10 liberal arts college -- entered the field. While many TFA alums move on to other things, some don't -- including my kid and several others who I know well.

In the case of my kid, though, she was able to stay in the profession notwithstanding the relatively low pay because (1) she had no student loans and (2) her husband -- a graduate of the same college but with a less impressive college transcript -- went into private industry and almost immediately began making more money than her.

Teach for America really devalues the importance of training to creating effective teachers. I am sure your daughter and her friends have the best of intentions, but you don't learn to teach by going through a a brief course the summer before you're plunked into a classroom. And most of the TFA alumni I know didn't go back to learn how to teach. Some of them went to get MEds so they could go into administration, because those who can't do administrate.

Which gets to one of the main things that drive people from the profession: Being overseen and evaluated by things that don't reflect your ability by people who don't understand your job. That, and the low pay, are going to drain the pool of talent faster than anything else.

Teach for America teachers are college graduates who are required to enroll in graduate school to get a master's in teaching at the same time that they are "plunked into a classroom." You left a critical part of the program out when you were disparaging it. How much "training" does your typical college graduate with a bachelor's in teaching have before they're "plunked" into a classroom?

I had three 6 month long placements in three different classrooms as an undergrad. My TFA colleague had never been around kids prior to her first teaching gig. Big difference.

Right. And that's great. But the question originally posted was "how do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?" How many public school teachers who went your route had "high SATs and GPAs" in high school and were "top students?" All of the available statistics would suggest that the answer is very few. I'm not surprised you'd take offense that others ended up in your profession by going a different route. No, TFA isn't perfect -- far from it, in fact -- and yes, the program starts its participants off with less classroom experience that the typical first year teacher who went the traditional route, but TFA participants are, by and large, more driven than most college graduates and certainly, well, if I have to say it, "smarter" than your typical traditionally trained and educated teacher. AND, as I said, they're also required to get their master's degrees in education while they are working. It's not like they just hire a history major from Tufts and throw them in a classroom with zero training and zero expectation that they'll get any formal education or degree in teaching.

I personally know of several high school and college superstars who got into teaching through TFA and are sticking with it and prospering in the DMV. Honestly, and with all respect, the one issue that my daughter has sheepishly confided in me about the problems she faces in her day-to-day dealings with her colleagues and administrators is that she is obviously "smarter" than most of them. She certainly doesn't think that makes her "better" as a human being or anything like that, but she is certainly dealing with a less intellectually capable group of colleagues on a day-to-day basis as a public school teacher than she did as a college student at an elite college.

I don't really care if others are smarter than I am. TFA teachers almost always end up quitting in my district (some make it to the end of the year but most don't). I don't need to be the smartest person in the room to teach 5-6 yr olds. I need other skills that most people do not possess. How do you attract top students? You don't because they aren't interested unless they can't figure out what to do with their lives so they go into TFA. Students don't need the smartest teachers. They need skilled teachers with a lot of patience and compassion.

That's great that you feel that way. But you should start another thread. This subject of this thread is "how do we get top students to enter public school teaching?" It isn't "how do we get skilled teachers with a lot of patience and compassion?"

DP but this post was in a response to promoting TFA as a means to get “top students” into teaching. I think a counter argument is pretty reasonable

Not if the counter argument is effectively "I disagree that we need top students teaching, what we need are ones with patience and compassion."

Maybe, but I’m a title 1 teacher who got a 1510 on their SATs, graduated summa cum laude both undergrad and my M. ED that I got while doing my TFA 2 years. I’m now in year ten and one other person in my cohort is still teaching.

All those academic accolades are not at all helpful to working in a school so maybe that’s now how we want to look at solving the problem. I stunk and was a hindrance to kids for at least my first 3-5 years; all the Calc BC and Org Chem mastery in the world doesnt matter if you can’t control a class

Would you agree that you're "smarter" in terms of SAT scores and high school/college achievement that the typical public school teacher who went the traditional route into the profession?

Maybe? IDK I also think standardized testing isn't a true barometer of "smartness" and there are many ways to express aptitude.

Well, thank you for conceding the obvious at least -- you likely ARE "smarter" in the conventionally understood sense. And it doesn't make you a bad person or a snob for thinking that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Top students shouldn’t enter teaching unless they love it. It’s a waste of their brain power. If you look at the studies, teachers don’t make much of a difference in kid outcomes. Hard working, well trained, entertaining, happy teachers are more important than brainiacs, who would get bored anyway.

I thought TFA was full of grade from elite schools who didn’t know what else to do. If they really wanted to be teachers, why didn’t they go the traditional route? All of our TFA teachers basically said they didn’t know that they wanted to do and people said TFA would look good on their resume.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
One way that top students can be steered into public school teaching is through Teach for America. It's how one of my kids -- an honors graduate of a top 10 liberal arts college -- entered the field. While many TFA alums move on to other things, some don't -- including my kid and several others who I know well.

In the case of my kid, though, she was able to stay in the profession notwithstanding the relatively low pay because (1) she had no student loans and (2) her husband -- a graduate of the same college but with a less impressive college transcript -- went into private industry and almost immediately began making more money than her.

Teach for America really devalues the importance of training to creating effective teachers. I am sure your daughter and her friends have the best of intentions, but you don't learn to teach by going through a a brief course the summer before you're plunked into a classroom. And most of the TFA alumni I know didn't go back to learn how to teach. Some of them went to get MEds so they could go into administration, because those who can't do administrate.

Which gets to one of the main things that drive people from the profession: Being overseen and evaluated by things that don't reflect your ability by people who don't understand your job. That, and the low pay, are going to drain the pool of talent faster than anything else.

Teach for America teachers are college graduates who are required to enroll in graduate school to get a master's in teaching at the same time that they are "plunked into a classroom." You left a critical part of the program out when you were disparaging it. How much "training" does your typical college graduate with a bachelor's in teaching have before they're "plunked" into a classroom?

I had three 6 month long placements in three different classrooms as an undergrad. My TFA colleague had never been around kids prior to her first teaching gig. Big difference.

Right. And that's great. But the question originally posted was "how do we get top students (as defined by high school SAT and GPA) to enter public school teaching?" How many public school teachers who went your route had "high SATs and GPAs" in high school and were "top students?" All of the available statistics would suggest that the answer is very few. I'm not surprised you'd take offense that others ended up in your profession by going a different route. No, TFA isn't perfect -- far from it, in fact -- and yes, the program starts its participants off with less classroom experience that the typical first year teacher who went the traditional route, but TFA participants are, by and large, more driven than most college graduates and certainly, well, if I have to say it, "smarter" than your typical traditionally trained and educated teacher. AND, as I said, they're also required to get their master's degrees in education while they are working. It's not like they just hire a history major from Tufts and throw them in a classroom with zero training and zero expectation that they'll get any formal education or degree in teaching.

I personally know of several high school and college superstars who got into teaching through TFA and are sticking with it and prospering in the DMV. Honestly, and with all respect, the one issue that my daughter has sheepishly confided in me about the problems she faces in her day-to-day dealings with her colleagues and administrators is that she is obviously "smarter" than most of them. She certainly doesn't think that makes her "better" as a human being or anything like that, but she is certainly dealing with a less intellectually capable group of colleagues on a day-to-day basis as a public school teacher than she did as a college student at an elite college.

I don't really care if others are smarter than I am. TFA teachers almost always end up quitting in my district (some make it to the end of the year but most don't). I don't need to be the smartest person in the room to teach 5-6 yr olds. I need other skills that most people do not possess. How do you attract top students? You don't because they aren't interested unless they can't figure out what to do with their lives so they go into TFA. Students don't need the smartest teachers. They need skilled teachers with a lot of patience and compassion.

That's great that you feel that way. But you should start another thread. This subject of this thread is "how do we get top students to enter public school teaching?" It isn't "how do we get skilled teachers with a lot of patience and compassion?"

DP but this post was in a response to promoting TFA as a means to get “top students” into teaching. I think a counter argument is pretty reasonable

Not if the counter argument is effectively "I disagree that we need top students teaching, what we need are ones with patience and compassion."

I think the counter argument is that grades and test scores aren't an effective way to identify who will be the best teachers -- it's finding and supporting people who understand that mere intelligence doesn't determine your success as a teacher. It's a combination of aptitude, training, and support, and the humility to know that you need them. And that's where TFA fails. Some students will be interested and capable of becoming good teachers despite the TFA model. None of them will do so because of it.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Top students shouldn’t enter teaching unless they love it. It’s a waste of their brain power. If you look at the studies, teachers don’t make much of a difference in kid outcomes. Hard working, well trained, entertaining, happy teachers are more important than brainiacs, who would get bored anyway.

I thought TFA was full of grade from elite schools who didn’t know what else to do. If they really wanted to be teachers, why didn’t they go the traditional route? All of our TFA teachers basically said they didn’t know that they wanted to do and people said TFA would look good on their resume.

1. Most high school seniors don't go off to college at 17 or 18 knowing what they want to do for the rest of their lives.

2. Many high achieving high school students set their sights on elite colleges, and most (there are exceptions, obviously) elite colleges don't offer four year "traditional" education degrees -- probably because the demand for them is so low.

3. I don't know who "all of your TFA teachers," but there are a lot more current and former TFA teachers out there who you don't know than who you know. The ones that I know more often than not decided to join TFA because they viewed it as volunteering in a sense -- even though they knew they would be paid. They did it to give back. The cynics among you may think it was all about not knowing what else to do and/or padding a resume, but many top graduates of elite colleges do, in fact, choose to embark on a variety of volunteer projects after college before starting a career, and some actually do this for altruistic reasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Top students shouldn’t enter teaching unless they love it. It’s a waste of their brain power. If you look at the studies, teachers don’t make much of a difference in kid outcomes. Hard working, well trained, entertaining, happy teachers are more important than brainiacs, who would get bored anyway.

I thought TFA was full of grade from elite schools who didn’t know what else to do. If they really wanted to be teachers, why didn’t they go the traditional route? All of our TFA teachers basically said they didn’t know that they wanted to do and people said TFA would look good on their resume.

1. Most high school seniors don't go off to college at 17 or 18 knowing what they want to do for the rest of their lives.

2. Many high achieving high school students set their sights on elite colleges, and most (there are exceptions, obviously) elite colleges don't offer four year "traditional" education degrees -- probably because the demand for them is so low.

3. I don't know who "all of your TFA teachers," but there are a lot more current and former TFA teachers out there who you don't know than who you know. The ones that I know more often than not decided to join TFA because they viewed it as volunteering in a sense -- even though they knew they would be paid. They did it to give back. The cynics among you may think it was all about not knowing what else to do and/or padding a resume, but many top graduates of elite colleges do, in fact, choose to embark on a variety of volunteer projects after college before starting a career, and some actually do this for altruistic reasons.

And THIS is the problem with TFA mindset and culture. Making 22 year olds think that they are giving back to the community by taking a job that they are criminally underqualified to do in a field (especially in the places TFA teachers work) that require expert and experienced teachers. This isn't like a semester abroad or a fun gap year project. Teaching in high needs areas shouldn't be looked at as a cute volunteer opportunity or resume padder.

[Anonymous]

Double the salary and enforce discipline and high standards in schools.