What is the Left's Problem with Ukraine (Well, Tucker Carlson's too.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The DSA (Democratic Socialists of America) tweeted out about being against NATO at the start of all this. I live in Portland and posted to some OPs a few times here asking about "antifa." We've got extremists on the left that are very illiberal, and often align with Trump's voters on things (attacking the press, supporting gun rights, denigrating Western countries). I actually voted for Bernie in our 2016 primary, but he is a DSA member and I wasn't very clued in to all of this then.

Remember that Bernie hired Tad Devine, who was one of Putin’s guys in Ukraine, as his top strategist for 2016. Maybe he didn’t understand that Devine was a creep, but maybe Bernie is just as much a Putin asset as Trump is.

[Anonymous]

Weird.

[Anonymous]

I don't agree whatsoever with the anti-Ukrainian crowd, but I do think it's a grim reality that providing weapons could escalate the conflict and result in even more death.

No one is coming to rescue Ukraine. They are not able to join NATO right now, while under occupation. So Ukraine is on its own and this is likely to result in Ukraine eventually coming to the table with some concessions. I don't believe it is best to hasten that process because I think that as long as Russia is tied up in Ukraine then they won't attack elsewhere. But it makes sense that some people believe we should try to get Ukraine to submit quickly. Just understand, no one is coming to help them.

Second, there are Nazis in Ukraine. It appears that the situation isn't as widespread or as deep as it is being portrayed. One of their military units has a white nationalist bent to it. Eventually Ukraine will need to answer for this, but now isn't the time.

[Anonymous]

I only know one person who is against us helping Ukraine because of their Nazis. I know there aren’t that many of them. I also know you don’t send the nice people to do the necessary dirty work. Our own military has its share of similarly bad people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't agree whatsoever with the anti-Ukrainian crowd, but I do think it's a grim reality that providing weapons could escalate the conflict and result in even more death.

No one is coming to rescue Ukraine. They are not able to join NATO right now, while under occupation. So Ukraine is on its own and this is likely to result in Ukraine eventually coming to the table with some concessions. I don't believe it is best to hasten that process because I think that as long as Russia is tied up in Ukraine then they won't attack elsewhere. But it makes sense that some people believe we should try to get Ukraine to submit quickly. Just understand, no one is coming to help them.

Second, there are Nazis in Ukraine. It appears that the situation isn't as widespread or as deep as it is being portrayed. One of their military units has a white nationalist bent to it. Eventually Ukraine will need to answer for this, but now isn't the time.

First, have you seen what Russians have done to civilians in captured cities? They were tortured and murdered despite having no weapons. Providing weapons to Ukraine is not going to escalate conflicts, it will save the people in the country from being wiped out.

Second, there are Nazis in the U.S., too. Maybe you should answer for that first before you start demanding Ukraine answer for their issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, it is generally the GOP who wants to support Putin against Ukraine. It is generally the Center/Left in the US which has brought NATO and the rest of the world together to stand up to Russia.

Yes, there are fringes on the left who align with the right, but it isn't very many people. It is really the GOP that you should be concerned about.

It is interesting that the conservatives openly praise Putin and want to do away with nato. Yet OP someone how thinks this is the left? Sure.

+1
And cites Reddit like that’s remotely real life.

Well if you want to know what far-left people are thinking…

Then why don't you ask them on Reddit?

I did.

Then why do you need to ask here? Or proeject Reddit here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I only know one person who is against us helping Ukraine because of their Nazis. I know there aren’t that many of them. I also know you don’t send the nice people to do the necessary dirty work. Our own military has its share of similarly bad people.

There are more Naxis and worse in Russia

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't agree whatsoever with the anti-Ukrainian crowd, but I do think it's a grim reality that providing weapons could escalate the conflict and result in even more death.

No one is coming to rescue Ukraine. They are not able to join NATO right now, while under occupation. So Ukraine is on its own and this is likely to result in Ukraine eventually coming to the table with some concessions. I don't believe it is best to hasten that process because I think that as long as Russia is tied up in Ukraine then they won't attack elsewhere. But it makes sense that some people believe we should try to get Ukraine to submit quickly. Just understand, no one is coming to help them.

Second, there are Nazis in Ukraine. It appears that the situation isn't as widespread or as deep as it is being portrayed. One of their military units has a white nationalist bent to it. Eventually Ukraine will need to answer for this, but now isn't the time.

Appeasement only emboldens Putin all the more.

And Ukraine's "Nazi problem" is grossly overstated. And, at this point Russia and its proxies like DPR have a far bigger Nazi problem than Ukraine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:...this is news to me. I thought Tucker was by himself. Most liberals I know are against the military industrial complex but have been keeping their mouth shut because they now see the importance. I myself am left leaning but definitely believe in a very strong defense so I've been walking around saying I told you so to both sides (yes, I've been in swimming schadenfreude since November 2020).

There’s liberals and then there’s leftists/tankies/anarchist.

Oh the nuts. You let me know when they wield some real political power (for example drive the selection of a presidential candidate) and then I'll be concerned.

PP is kind of right here. But I’m afraid “the nuts” who brought us here, the putatively respectable and moderate, are who brought us here. And this crowd insists on ignoring that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The DSA (Democratic Socialists of America) tweeted out about being against NATO at the start of all this. I live in Portland and posted to some OPs a few times here asking about "antifa." We've got extremists on the left that are very illiberal, and often align with Trump's voters on things (attacking the press, supporting gun rights, denigrating Western countries). I actually voted for Bernie in our 2016 primary, but he is a DSA member and I wasn't very clued in to all of this then.

Remember that Bernie hired Tad Devine, who was one of Putin’s guys in Ukraine, as his top strategist for 2016. Maybe he didn’t understand that Devine was a creep, but maybe Bernie is just as much a Putin asset as Trump is.

I dislike Bernie with the heat of a thousand cold suns and think his hiring Devine was deeply suspect, but no one is as much of a Putin asset as Trump and Tuckyo are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't agree whatsoever with the anti-Ukrainian crowd, but I do think it's a grim reality that providing weapons could escalate the conflict and result in even more death.

No one is coming to rescue Ukraine. They are not able to join NATO right now, while under occupation. So Ukraine is on its own and this is likely to result in Ukraine eventually coming to the table with some concessions. I don't believe it is best to hasten that process because I think that as long as Russia is tied up in Ukraine then they won't attack elsewhere. But it makes sense that some people believe we should try to get Ukraine to submit quickly. Just understand, no one is coming to help them.

Second, there are Nazis in Ukraine. It appears that the situation isn't as widespread or as deep as it is being portrayed. One of their military units has a white nationalist bent to it. Eventually Ukraine will need to answer for this, but now isn't the time.

First, have you seen what Russians have done to civilians in captured cities? They were tortured and murdered despite having no weapons. Providing weapons to Ukraine is not going to escalate conflicts, it will save the people in the country from being wiped out.

Second, there are Nazis in the U.S., too. Maybe you should answer for that first before you start demanding Ukraine answer for their issues.

PP is absolutely correct, if we aren't going to get directly involved in this war then prolonging it will likely be more devastating for Ukraine than helpful. People of fighting age aren't unlimited resources, neither are still habitable cities and villages where Ukrainians can survive and have access to shelter, food and amenities. Same goes for Ukraine's food supplies and necessities, as you can imagine that farming and factory production of the occupied actively bombed country goes down. Getting supplies to not only feed the army but all the remaining civilian population is much more difficult than getting supplies only for fighting army. None of this is true for Russia, there is no war on their territory, their farms and factories aren't bombed or inoperable, they will keep getting supplies into Ukraine, they have more stamina to keep this going. Even if their number of men of fighting age gets depleted with time, it will be less dramatic than for Ukraine. These are just realities that some don't want to acknowledge, and they have no idea how we can help Ukraine win or what "winning" actually means in this war at this point. Tell me where I am wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't agree whatsoever with the anti-Ukrainian crowd, but I do think it's a grim reality that providing weapons could escalate the conflict and result in even more death.

No one is coming to rescue Ukraine. They are not able to join NATO right now, while under occupation. So Ukraine is on its own and this is likely to result in Ukraine eventually coming to the table with some concessions. I don't believe it is best to hasten that process because I think that as long as Russia is tied up in Ukraine then they won't attack elsewhere. But it makes sense that some people believe we should try to get Ukraine to submit quickly. Just understand, no one is coming to help them.

Second, there are Nazis in Ukraine. It appears that the situation isn't as widespread or as deep as it is being portrayed. One of their military units has a white nationalist bent to it. Eventually Ukraine will need to answer for this, but now isn't the time.

First, have you seen what Russians have done to civilians in captured cities? They were tortured and murdered despite having no weapons. Providing weapons to Ukraine is not going to escalate conflicts, it will save the people in the country from being wiped out.

Second, there are Nazis in the U.S., too. Maybe you should answer for that first before you start demanding Ukraine answer for their issues.

PP is absolutely correct, if we aren't going to get directly involved in this war then prolonging it will likely be more devastating for Ukraine than helpful. People of fighting age aren't unlimited resources, neither are still habitable cities and villages where Ukrainians can survive and have access to shelter, food and amenities. Same goes for Ukraine's food supplies and necessities, as you can imagine that farming and factory production of the occupied actively bombed country goes down. Getting supplies to not only feed the army but all the remaining civilian population is much more difficult than getting supplies only for fighting army. None of this is true for Russia, there is no war on their territory, their farms and factories aren't bombed or inoperable, they will keep getting supplies into Ukraine, they have more stamina to keep this going. Even if their number of men of fighting age gets depleted with time, it will be less dramatic than for Ukraine. These are just realities that some don't want to acknowledge, and they have no idea how we can help Ukraine win or what "winning" actually means in this war at this point. Tell me where I am wrong.

The West is in a difficult position, if they allow Putin and Xi to expand their empires with impunity, the threat they pose to the rest of the world will only increase. Autocrats are never satisfied with easy victories, they do not value peace or human life, if anything they benefit from armed conflict because they have nobody to answer to and it strengthens their government at home by conjuring up the idea of a foreign threat. Keeping Russia bogged down in Ukraine is the least bad option (from the standpoint of Europe and the rest of the world, not the Ukrainian people).

We're in a new cold war now between Russia/China and the West. This competition is going to last decades, and yeah some countries like Ukraine will unfortunately suffer immensely because they're the sites of the proxy wars. History repeating itself again...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't agree whatsoever with the anti-Ukrainian crowd, but I do think it's a grim reality that providing weapons could escalate the conflict and result in even more death.

No one is coming to rescue Ukraine. They are not able to join NATO right now, while under occupation. So Ukraine is on its own and this is likely to result in Ukraine eventually coming to the table with some concessions. I don't believe it is best to hasten that process because I think that as long as Russia is tied up in Ukraine then they won't attack elsewhere. But it makes sense that some people believe we should try to get Ukraine to submit quickly. Just understand, no one is coming to help them.

Second, there are Nazis in Ukraine. It appears that the situation isn't as widespread or as deep as it is being portrayed. One of their military units has a white nationalist bent to it. Eventually Ukraine will need to answer for this, but now isn't the time.

First, have you seen what Russians have done to civilians in captured cities? They were tortured and murdered despite having no weapons. Providing weapons to Ukraine is not going to escalate conflicts, it will save the people in the country from being wiped out.

Second, there are Nazis in the U.S., too. Maybe you should answer for that first before you start demanding Ukraine answer for their issues.

PP is absolutely correct, if we aren't going to get directly involved in this war then prolonging it will likely be more devastating for Ukraine than helpful. People of fighting age aren't unlimited resources, neither are still habitable cities and villages where Ukrainians can survive and have access to shelter, food and amenities. Same goes for Ukraine's food supplies and necessities, as you can imagine that farming and factory production of the occupied actively bombed country goes down. Getting supplies to not only feed the army but all the remaining civilian population is much more difficult than getting supplies only for fighting army. None of this is true for Russia, there is no war on their territory, their farms and factories aren't bombed or inoperable, they will keep getting supplies into Ukraine, they have more stamina to keep this going. Even if their number of men of fighting age gets depleted with time, it will be less dramatic than for Ukraine. These are just realities that some don't want to acknowledge, and they have no idea how we can help Ukraine win or what "winning" actually means in this war at this point. Tell me where I am wrong.

The West is in a difficult position, if they allow Putin and Xi to expand their empires with impunity, the threat they pose to the rest of the world will only increase. Autocrats are never satisfied with easy victories, they do not value peace or human life, if anything they benefit from armed conflict because they have nobody to answer to and it strengthens their government at home by conjuring up the idea of a foreign threat. Keeping Russia bogged down in Ukraine is the least bad option (from the standpoint of Europe and the rest of the world, not the Ukrainian people).

We're in a new cold war now between Russia/China and the West. This competition is going to last decades, and yeah some countries like Ukraine will unfortunately suffer immensely because they're the sites of the proxy wars. History repeating itself again...

I’d prefer it if the GOP weren’t obviously siding with Russia. That would be nice. History needn’t repeat itself again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I get my news and information from many sources, but as a progressive I am infuriated by what I read and hear in the "alternative" left press, blogs and Twittersphere. To here then tell it, we cannot arm Ukraine and provide them with a means of self defense because: 1) that supports U.S. imperialism and the military-industrial complex; 2) the U.S. and NATO precipitated this war by not respecting Russia's, i.e. Putin's "legitimate security concerns; 3) Ukraine is a state full of Nazis and we cannot arm Nazis; and 4) that arming Ukraine will only prolong the conflict and lead to countless needless civilian deaths. They also call for a "diplomatic" solutions. But what is that solution? Added to this is the complete lack of attention paid to what the East European and Ukrainian left are saying: stop westplaining and give us what we need to fight Russian imperialism. This is a Spanish Civil War moment. There is moral clarity in Ukraine's fight for freedom. And either the progressive left is with Ukraine and its struggle to survive or it is a Putin accomplice. Putin has clearly outlined in an RIA-Novosti piece wjhat he intends to do in those areas of Ukraine he can occupy: crush Ukrainian culture and nationality; kill and/or deport those he sees a Nazis (basically the whole of the Ukrainian population.

What bothers you the most here and what do you think the Left should be doing at this point? Are you against diplomatic solutions? What road do we have in this war? Your only argument here is moral clarity and that the only way to be "with Ukraine" is continuing this war. What would constitute winning or losing this war for Ukraine in your mind?

Ukraine’s territorial integrity antebellum, including Crimea. That is not negotiable. In return, Putin gets a neutral but armed Ukraine and a DMZ 100 miles into Russian and Belarusian territory.

[Anonymous]

Perfect example of the horseshoe going on here, with this frequent Tucker Carlson guest nodding in approval of Noam Chomsky.