Test Optional : Game Changer

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test optional is a smokescreen to perpetuate admission discrimination and everyone knows it. Can’t wait for the Supreme Court to rule on these “holistic” policies. Low achievers love them but I hope everyone who supports test optional chooses a degree optional doctor for their next major surgery.

In a world of dumb points, this one is way up there. Are you currently asking your doctor for a standardized test score they took when they were 16? And using that as a proxy for their medical talent? You deserve the results of all your bad decisions.

I absolutely check where my prospective doctors went to undergrad, med school and residency. I did this yesterday when looking for a rheumatologist, in fact.

They wouldn't get into Yale, Vanderbilt or Northwestern undergrad in the first place with a 21 ACT. So do I know their exact SAT? No, but I know they did undergrad at a top school and reasonable conclusions can be drawn about their "standardized test score when they were 16": it was high!

Do I know their MCAT? Still no -- but if that MCAT was shit, we can all agree that Stanford medical school wouldn't have selected them. And so on.

While we're on the topic, I also don't want the vision impaired pilot, the firefighter with no upper body strength who uses a cane, or the trial attorney with a profound speech apraxia.

Your point wasn't checking education but SAT/ACT scores - you realize that is what test optional is about, right? So in your context, if the school selects them, they should be good enough - what do you care what standard they use? U Chicago has been test optional since 2018, are you planning on eliminating all U Chicago undergrads from consideration?

If you judge doctors on the undergrad, then you've probably already seen a doctor who had a lower SAT/ACT test score than you probably deem appropriate. Plenty of students at Yale, Vanderbilt or Northwestern have always had mediocre scores but got in for legacy, athletics, donor, etc. You can't tell who they are now.

As for the other professions, are you checking where the pilot learned to fly? Or the quality of the training program for the firefighter? No, you aren't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Fuzzy science. Not even sure an 11 point percentage spread is statistically significant without seeing raw numbers. What constitutes “wealthiest” and “poorest” students? Nothing is defined.

Zip codes are a good indicator, no?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Test optional sucks A**!!

Actually, test optional is working well. YOU might not like it, but colleges do.

This is what test optional produces. Boston College as an example:


"Having received the most undergraduate applications in its history this winter, Boston College is set to enroll a first-year class that furthers the University’s efforts to promote diversity as well as academic excellence, and provide higher-educational opportunities for underrepresented students, according to Director of Undergraduate Admission Grant Gosselin."


"Although BC, along with many other colleges and universities, was test-optional for the 2021-2022 admission cycle, 45 percent of applicants submitted test scores. The average SAT score among applicants is 1452, 33 for ACT.

Public high school students account for 62 percent of Class of 2026 applicants, while private and independent school applicants are 23 percent of the total, and students from Jesuit or Catholic high schools represent 15 percent."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Test optional is a smokescreen to perpetuate admission discrimination and everyone knows it. Can’t wait for the Supreme Court to rule on these “holistic” policies. Low achievers love them but I hope everyone who supports test optional chooses a degree optional doctor for their next major surgery.

The SAT to remain relevant, will digitize the SAT and make it shorter ( I think 2 hours). Under your logic there will be "admission discrimination" because someone prefers a longer test on paper.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Strong correlation between test scores and general intelligence. It’s funny how the people who complain incessantly about standardized tests are inevitably low performers.

That's a lot of assuming for someone who probably thinks of herself/himself as intelligent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Test optional has created a monster. The reason kids have to apply to 15+ schools, because even with good grades, ECs, leadership, summer job throughout HS, and good test scores, still a crap shoot to get in because so many more kids applying.

Until there is a way to limit/rule out some students (which test scores used to do), this will continue.

Well, the Common App makes it very easy to apply to 15+ schools, TO or not. College admissions are uber competitive across the board. Safeties have now become reaches in some cases.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s a shame that so many underprivileged students have been cheated out of a basic high school education but people who can’t get a 4 digit sat score probably shouldn’t go to college in the first place

+1 K-12 education and other factors such as poverty and cultural attitudes towards education and intelligence are the issue.

In the most recent report for the class of 2021, the mean score was 1,112 for White students and 934 for Black students. (The overall mean score was 1,060.

The average score difference is not insurmountable. The focus needs to be on early education and access.

[Anonymous]

I like the test optional system. When admissions teams are are choosing between my kid and others nearly identical, my kid’s very good SAT score will tip the balance in his favor vs. those who didn’t submit test results.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test optional sucks A**!!

Actually, test optional is working well. YOU might not like it, but colleges do.

This is what test optional produces. Boston College as an example:


"Having received the most undergraduate applications in its history this winter, Boston College is set to enroll a first-year class that furthers the University’s efforts to promote diversity as well as academic excellence, and provide higher-educational opportunities for underrepresented students, according to Director of Undergraduate Admission Grant Gosselin."


"Although BC, along with many other colleges and universities, was test-optional for the 2021-2022 admission cycle, 45 percent of applicants submitted test scores. The average SAT score among applicants is 1452, 33 for ACT.

Public high school students account for 62 percent of Class of 2026 applicants, while private and independent school applicants are 23 percent of the total, and students from Jesuit or Catholic high schools represent 15 percent."

You write colleges "like" it. Colleges like that it allows them to admit the class they seek to admit. What they are finding, and will continue to research over the next few years, is how well prepared the admitted class is for the most rigorous colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test optional is a smokescreen to perpetuate admission discrimination and everyone knows it. Can’t wait for the Supreme Court to rule on these “holistic” policies. Low achievers love them but I hope everyone who supports test optional chooses a degree optional doctor for their next major surgery.

In a world of dumb points, this one is way up there. Are you currently asking your doctor for a standardized test score they took when they were 16? And using that as a proxy for their medical talent? You deserve the results of all your bad decisions.

I absolutely check where my prospective doctors went to undergrad, med school and residency. I did this yesterday when looking for a rheumatologist, in fact.

They wouldn't get into Yale, Vanderbilt or Northwestern undergrad in the first place with a 21 ACT. So do I know their exact SAT? No, but I know they did undergrad at a top school and reasonable conclusions can be drawn about their "standardized test score when they were 16": it was high!

Do I know their MCAT? Still no -- but if that MCAT was shit, we can all agree that Stanford medical school wouldn't have selected them. And so on.

While we're on the topic, I also don't want the vision impaired pilot, the firefighter with no upper body strength who uses a cane, or the trial attorney with a profound speech apraxia.

Your point wasn't checking education but SAT/ACT scores - you realize that is what test optional is about, right? So in your context, if the school selects them, they should be good enough - what do you care what standard they use? U Chicago has been test optional since 2018, are you planning on eliminating all U Chicago undergrads from consideration?

If you judge doctors on the undergrad, then you've probably already seen a doctor who had a lower SAT/ACT test score than you probably deem appropriate. Plenty of students at Yale, Vanderbilt or Northwestern have always had mediocre scores but got in for legacy, athletics, donor, etc. You can't tell who they are now.

As for the other professions, are you checking where the pilot learned to fly? Or the quality of the training program for the firefighter? No, you aren't.

Read. We can deduce with confidence that my current Harvard-Harvard-Stanford doctor didn’t have a 21 ACT in 1985, because Harvard wouldn’t have accepted him with a 21 ACT. We can assume it was much higher — because Harvard. And even if Harvard admitted an ACT 21 in 1985 because football, you know damn well that 21 didn’t major in chemistry, earn perfect grades, then kill the MCAT to make it into Harvard medical school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test optional is a smokescreen to perpetuate admission discrimination and everyone knows it. Can’t wait for the Supreme Court to rule on these “holistic” policies. Low achievers love them but I hope everyone who supports test optional chooses a degree optional doctor for their next major surgery.

In a world of dumb points, this one is way up there. Are you currently asking your doctor for a standardized test score they took when they were 16? And using that as a proxy for their medical talent? You deserve the results of all your bad decisions.

NP. Unfortunately, people will use "proxies" to assume low ability.. such as race. Folks may prioritize White and Asian doctors over Black doctors, for example.

This is an extreme example though. No one that gets into and through med school is a fool. I once went to a primary care physician (Asian) and he turned out to be the worst doctor I've ever come across (I'm Asian BTW). On the other hand, one of the specialty doctors I used was Black. I continued to use him after I moved out of DC to the suburbs. Once he found out that it took me over an hour to get to his appointment, he referred me to a diff., younger doctor in the 'burbs who turned out to be Hispanic. Excellent guy.

So yeah. While I don't agree with test optional for undergrad admissions being a good thing, I don't think you could extend that to med school and assume that the mediocres and below admitted through TO will get in, mainly because med school admissions still have an entrance test!

TO is an economic boom to colleges. Application volumes are through the roof everywhere and colleges are just raking it in. Why would they give up on TO?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test optional sucks A**!!

Actually, test optional is working well. YOU might not like it, but colleges do.

This is what test optional produces. Boston College as an example:


"Having received the most undergraduate applications in its history this winter, Boston College is set to enroll a first-year class that furthers the University’s efforts to promote diversity as well as academic excellence, and provide higher-educational opportunities for underrepresented students, according to Director of Undergraduate Admission Grant Gosselin."


"Although BC, along with many other colleges and universities, was test-optional for the 2021-2022 admission cycle, 45 percent of applicants submitted test scores. The average SAT score among applicants is 1452, 33 for ACT.

Public high school students account for 62 percent of Class of 2026 applicants, while private and independent school applicants are 23 percent of the total, and students from Jesuit or Catholic high schools represent 15 percent."

You write colleges "like" it. Colleges like that it allows them to admit the class they seek to admit. What they are finding, and will continue to research over the next few years, is how well prepared the admitted class is for the most rigorous colleges.

Graduation rates will bear this out and the top schools will still have high graduation rates. But, in the zero sum game of college admissions for parents, they don't care about the college research in the future. Their DC has to contend with the system as it exists today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test optional sucks A**!!

Actually, test optional is working well. YOU might not like it, but colleges do.

This is what test optional produces. Boston College as an example:


"Having received the most undergraduate applications in its history this winter, Boston College is set to enroll a first-year class that furthers the University’s efforts to promote diversity as well as academic excellence, and provide higher-educational opportunities for underrepresented students, according to Director of Undergraduate Admission Grant Gosselin."


"Although BC, along with many other colleges and universities, was test-optional for the 2021-2022 admission cycle, 45 percent of applicants submitted test scores. The average SAT score among applicants is 1452, 33 for ACT.

Public high school students account for 62 percent of Class of 2026 applicants, while private and independent school applicants are 23 percent of the total, and students from Jesuit or Catholic high schools represent 15 percent."

Blah blah diversity blah blah. Yawn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Even though many colleges aren’t mandating scores, at least one group of students are still sending them: wealthier ones. In the current application cycle for current high school seniors, 52% of students in the wealthiest households submitted scores this school year, according to data from the Common Application through February. Only 39% of the poorest did so. Applications among first-generation students -- those whose parents didn’t receive bachelor’s degrees -- grew by 21% from two years prior. Only 37% of underrepresented minorities sent in scores in 2021-22, compared to 52% of non-unrepresented minorities."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-14/why-u-s-colleges-are-rethinking-standardized-tests-quicktake-l0qs606i

Wealthy households are taking standardized tests in greater numbers, probably with a lot of money spent on test prep. They still want the "advantage" that comes with maintaining the high stakes testing standard. However, Test Optional is changing the admissions game.

Or they are taking the test because they know test optional really isn't for them. Colleges are happy for first gen and URMs to be test optional because they can do what they want with less chance of lawsuits similar to the Harvard one. For other students, it's likely viewed as a red flag to not submit scores.

+1
It wasn’t really “optional” for my kid coming from a W school. It would have been a giant red flag. And since you are competing against your peers, if they’re all taking the test then you also need to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Even though many colleges aren’t mandating scores, at least one group of students are still sending them: wealthier ones. In the current application cycle for current high school seniors, 52% of students in the wealthiest households submitted scores this school year, according to data from the Common Application through February. Only 39% of the poorest did so. Applications among first-generation students -- those whose parents didn’t receive bachelor’s degrees -- grew by 21% from two years prior. Only 37% of underrepresented minorities sent in scores in 2021-22, compared to 52% of non-unrepresented minorities."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-14/why-u-s-colleges-are-rethinking-standardized-tests-quicktake-l0qs606i

Wealthy households are taking standardized tests in greater numbers, probably with a lot of money spent on test prep. They still want the "advantage" that comes with maintaining the high stakes testing standard. However, Test Optional is changing the admissions game.

Or they are taking the test because they know test optional really isn't for them. Colleges are happy for first gen and URMs to be test optional because they can do what they want with less chance of lawsuits similar to the Harvard one. For other students, it's likely viewed as a red flag to not submit scores.

+1
It wasn’t really “optional” for my kid coming from a W school. It would have been a giant red flag. And since you are competing against your peers, if they’re all taking the test then you also need to.

W schools have a fairly homogeneous demographic and are in mostly well-to-do neighborhoods, so that makes sense.