Test Optional : Game Changer

[Anonymous]

TBH I don’t think that’s such a huge disparity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Test optional is a smokescreen to perpetuate admission discrimination and everyone knows it. Can’t wait for the Supreme Court to rule on these “holistic” policies. Low achievers love them but I hope everyone who supports test optional chooses a degree optional doctor for their next major surgery.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test optional is a smokescreen to perpetuate admission discrimination and everyone knows it. Can’t wait for the Supreme Court to rule on these “holistic” policies. Low achievers love them but I hope everyone who supports test optional chooses a degree optional doctor for their next major surgery.

In a world of dumb points, this one is way up there. Are you currently asking your doctor for a standardized test score they took when they were 16? And using that as a proxy for their medical talent? You deserve the results of all your bad decisions.

I absolutely check where my prospective doctors went to undergrad, med school and residency. I did this yesterday when looking for a rheumatologist, in fact.

They wouldn't get into Yale, Vanderbilt or Northwestern undergrad in the first place with a 21 ACT. So do I know their exact SAT? No, but I know they did undergrad at a top school and reasonable conclusions can be drawn about their "standardized test score when they were 16": it was high!

Do I know their MCAT? Still no -- but if that MCAT was shit, we can all agree that Stanford medical school wouldn't have selected them. And so on.

While we're on the topic, I also don't want the vision impaired pilot, the firefighter with no upper body strength who uses a cane, or the trial attorney with a profound speech apraxia.

Your point wasn't checking education but SAT/ACT scores - you realize that is what test optional is about, right? So in your context, if the school selects them, they should be good enough - what do you care what standard they use? U Chicago has been test optional since 2018, are you planning on eliminating all U Chicago undergrads from consideration?

If you judge doctors on the undergrad, then you've probably already seen a doctor who had a lower SAT/ACT test score than you probably deem appropriate. Plenty of students at Yale, Vanderbilt or Northwestern have always had mediocre scores but got in for legacy, athletics, donor, etc. You can't tell who they are now.

As for the other professions, are you checking where the pilot learned to fly? Or the quality of the training program for the firefighter? No, you aren't.

Read. We can deduce with confidence that my current Harvard-Harvard-Stanford doctor didn’t have a 21 ACT in 1985, because Harvard wouldn’t have accepted him with a 21 ACT. We can assume it was much higher — because Harvard. And even if Harvard admitted an ACT 21 in 1985 because football, you know damn well that 21 didn’t major in chemistry, earn perfect grades, then kill the MCAT to make it into Harvard medical school.

Actually, you don't know any of that. Harvard standards, if anything, are higher now than before.

And you're totally missing the point - if someone got accepted with a 21, majored in chemistry, earned perfect grades, killed the MCAT and made it into Harvard medical school (which is possible despite your undeserved certainty otherwise), you would have no idea. You'd just see the degree. So maybe the SAT/ACT isn't as relevant as you think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test optional is a smokescreen to perpetuate admission discrimination and everyone knows it. Can’t wait for the Supreme Court to rule on these “holistic” policies. Low achievers love them but I hope everyone who supports test optional chooses a degree optional doctor for their next major surgery.

In a world of dumb points, this one is way up there. Are you currently asking your doctor for a standardized test score they took when they were 16? And using that as a proxy for their medical talent? You deserve the results of all your bad decisions.

NP. Unfortunately, people will use "proxies" to assume low ability.. such as race. Folks may prioritize White and Asian doctors over Black doctors, for example.

This is an extreme example though. No one that gets into and through med school is a fool. I once went to a primary care physician (Asian) and he turned out to be the worst doctor I've ever come across (I'm Asian BTW). On the other hand, one of the specialty doctors I used was Black. I continued to use him after I moved out of DC to the suburbs. Once he found out that it took me over an hour to get to his appointment, he referred me to a diff., younger doctor in the 'burbs who turned out to be Hispanic. Excellent guy.

So yeah. While I don't agree with test optional for undergrad admissions being a good thing, I don't think you could extend that to med school and assume that the mediocres and below admitted through TO will get in, mainly because med school admissions still have an entrance test!

TO is an economic boom to colleges. Application volumes are through the roof everywhere and colleges are just raking it in. Why would they give up on TO?

if people want to make dumb, racist decisions, let them. I'll just point out that something like 40% of white admits to Harvard are legacies, athletes, donors. So if you're assuming they'd all meet some pre-college testing standard, you're just wrong.

[Anonymous]

Test optional saved my kid's mental health this year. We had a very traumatic family experience that led to serious depression and anxiety for my kid during junior year. Despite what she went through, she was able to maintain stellar grades. However, taking the SAT was just too much for her at the time. If she had been in a better state with her mental health I think she would have done quite well based on previous PSAT scores, etc. but I am so thankful we could take that stress off her. So far, she has been accepted into all the schools she applied to with merit aid (focused on matches and a couple of safeties, plus 1-2 reaches). If she has been in a situation where she had to take the test, I think we would be in a very different place. Lots of kids are struggling right now- test-optional is a way to take some of the pressure off when they need it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Test optional saved my kid's mental health this year. We had a very traumatic family experience that led to serious depression and anxiety for my kid during junior year. Despite what she went through, she was able to maintain stellar grades. However, taking the SAT was just too much for her at the time. If she had been in a better state with her mental health I think she would have done quite well based on previous PSAT scores, etc. but I am so thankful we could take that stress off her. So far, she has been accepted into all the schools she applied to with merit aid (focused on matches and a couple of safeties, plus 1-2 reaches). If she has been in a situation where she had to take the test, I think we would be in a very different place. Lots of kids are struggling right now- test-optional is a way to take some of the pressure off when they need it.

Thanks for sharing. Glad things are working out well for your DC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test optional sucks A**!!

Actually, test optional is working well. YOU might not like it, but colleges do.

This is what test optional produces. Boston College as an example:


"Having received the most undergraduate applications in its history this winter, Boston College is set to enroll a first-year class that furthers the University’s efforts to promote diversity as well as academic excellence, and provide higher-educational opportunities for underrepresented students, according to Director of Undergraduate Admission Grant Gosselin."


"Although BC, along with many other colleges and universities, was test-optional for the 2021-2022 admission cycle, 45 percent of applicants submitted test scores. The average SAT score among applicants is 1452, 33 for ACT.

Public high school students account for 62 percent of Class of 2026 applicants, while private and independent school applicants are 23 percent of the total, and students from Jesuit or Catholic high schools represent 15 percent."

I bet colleges love it because they are average scores will rise substantially — anyone with low scores just won’t send them! They will get the cachet of having high scores without needing to actually admit a greater percentage of kids with high scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test optional is a smokescreen to perpetuate admission discrimination and everyone knows it. Can’t wait for the Supreme Court to rule on these “holistic” policies. Low achievers love them but I hope everyone who supports test optional chooses a degree optional doctor for their next major surgery.

+1

Most people don't research where their doctor went to med school, their class rank...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test optional sucks A**!!

Actually, test optional is working well. YOU might not like it, but colleges do.

This is what test optional produces. Boston College as an example:


"Having received the most undergraduate applications in its history this winter, Boston College is set to enroll a first-year class that furthers the University’s efforts to promote diversity as well as academic excellence, and provide higher-educational opportunities for underrepresented students, according to Director of Undergraduate Admission Grant Gosselin."


"Although BC, along with many other colleges and universities, was test-optional for the 2021-2022 admission cycle, 45 percent of applicants submitted test scores. The average SAT score among applicants is 1452, 33 for ACT.

Public high school students account for 62 percent of Class of 2026 applicants, while private and independent school applicants are 23 percent of the total, and students from Jesuit or Catholic high schools represent 15 percent."

I bet colleges love it because they are average scores will rise substantially — anyone with low scores just won’t send them! They will get the cachet of having high scores without needing to actually admit a greater percentage of kids with high scores.

+1 Schools that require scores will be disadvantaged by this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test optional is a smokescreen to perpetuate admission discrimination and everyone knows it. Can’t wait for the Supreme Court to rule on these “holistic” policies. Low achievers love them but I hope everyone who supports test optional chooses a degree optional doctor for their next major surgery.

+1

Most people don't research where their doctor went to med school, their class rank...

I think that’s over generalizing. I think most people check their board certifications (which tests them), maybe where they went to med school, likely not undergrad or class ranks. Their is some assumption that they did well if they got in to medical school (which is rightly so).
It’s not as if people don’t care…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test optional is a smokescreen to perpetuate admission discrimination and everyone knows it. Can’t wait for the Supreme Court to rule on these “holistic” policies. Low achievers love them but I hope everyone who supports test optional chooses a degree optional doctor for their next major surgery.

+1

Most people don't research where their doctor went to med school, their class rank...

Are there MCAT optional med schools? Can you be a doctor without med school?
It is safe to assume every doctor took the MCAT and scores fairly well?
Yes, yes it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test optional sucks A**!!

Actually, test optional is working well. YOU might not like it, but colleges do.

This is what test optional produces. Boston College as an example:


"Having received the most undergraduate applications in its history this winter, Boston College is set to enroll a first-year class that furthers the University’s efforts to promote diversity as well as academic excellence, and provide higher-educational opportunities for underrepresented students, according to Director of Undergraduate Admission Grant Gosselin."


"Although BC, along with many other colleges and universities, was test-optional for the 2021-2022 admission cycle, 45 percent of applicants submitted test scores. The average SAT score among applicants is 1452, 33 for ACT.

Public high school students account for 62 percent of Class of 2026 applicants, while private and independent school applicants are 23 percent of the total, and students from Jesuit or Catholic high schools represent 15 percent."

I bet colleges love it because they are average scores will rise substantially — anyone with low scores just won’t send them! They will get the cachet of having high scores without needing to actually admit a greater percentage of kids with high scores.

Fair point. IMO it's a win win for colleges ( to your point) and students, for it provides flexibility for applicants to decide how they want their application to get evaluated. In the above quote, while 45% submitted a test score, 55% did not. Perhaps the public school students used test optional more than the private school students, but the college received applications from a broader pool. Ultimately the school decides who it wants to admit from thousands of applications.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test optional is a smokescreen to perpetuate admission discrimination and everyone knows it. Can’t wait for the Supreme Court to rule on these “holistic” policies. Low achievers love them but I hope everyone who supports test optional chooses a degree optional doctor for their next major surgery.

+1

Most people don't research where their doctor went to med school, their class rank...

Isn’t the joke “what do you call the doctor that graduated last in their class ..doctor”. I have no idea of the class rank of any of my doctors. I also don’t know if someone went to UMD Medical school and not Harvard because of finances or went to a state school undergrad because of finances. I don’t know if any of my doctors scored a 1200 on the SATs, worked their tail off in college and got into med school or if they had a 1550.

Usually I am looking for a doctor that keeps up with what is going on in their field, is board certified and has people skills and a good communicator. The tests aren’t screening for all the things I personally look for in a doctor. The tests are one way to narrow down the applicant pool, its’s part but not the whole picture of college and med school admissions, and while it speaks to some capacity to learn the material at the end of the day, it doesn’t guarantee that person will actually be a good doctor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test optional is a smokescreen to perpetuate admission discrimination and everyone knows it. Can’t wait for the Supreme Court to rule on these “holistic” policies. Low achievers love them but I hope everyone who supports test optional chooses a degree optional doctor for their next major surgery.

+1

Most people don't research where their doctor went to med school, their class rank...

Are there MCAT optional med schools? Can you be a doctor without med school?
It is safe to assume every doctor took the MCAT and scores fairly well?
Yes, yes it is.

but we're talking about SAT/ACT scores from when they were 16. What are your current doctors' scores? Do you have them fill out a form?

did you ask them for the AP science scores as well?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Test optional saved my kid's mental health this year. We had a very traumatic family experience that led to serious depression and anxiety for my kid during junior year. Despite what she went through, she was able to maintain stellar grades. However, taking the SAT was just too much for her at the time. If she had been in a better state with her mental health I think she would have done quite well based on previous PSAT scores, etc. but I am so thankful we could take that stress off her. So far, she has been accepted into all the schools she applied to with merit aid (focused on matches and a couple of safeties, plus 1-2 reaches). If she has been in a situation where she had to take the test, I think we would be in a very different place. Lots of kids are struggling right now- test-optional is a way to take some of the pressure off when they need it.

You might want to think twice about putting a kid who is so prone to depression and anxiety that they cannot take the SAT into a highly competitive school. Just sayin.