Fleeing APS schools for FFX County

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:OP here. Never thought I'd see this many responses, but my takeaway is: FFX uses larger class sizes and the AAP program to manage the potential overcrowding at schools. From everything I've heard in APS over the 4-5 years we've been part of it, there is no way they'd consider tracking and AAP. Seems like a non-starter, for whatever reason. But maybe we're getting to the point where we should consider expanding class sizes. I haven't heard many negative comments about it from FFX parents, seems like it hasn't been all that detrimental to the classroom.

And no surprise we're never going to have as many options as FFX does in terms of finding land to build new schools. They have so much more flexibility in that regard. I wonder if APS needs to at least consider making the 4th HS a combined 6-12 grade school. Perhaps that could open up more options and relieve some of the busing costs? Maybe have the 6-8 grades start at a different time, to stagger the buses? Just throwing out ideas at this point.

APS doesn't do "tracking" but residential housing segregation is essentially the same thing. I bet it would be eyepopping to find out what percentage of students in each elementary school had a preschool education. At a school like Jamestown it's probably well over 90%. At Barcroft or Randolph I'd be very surprised if it cracked 50%. Kids who go to preschool start out ahead (north Arlington) or wait for the others to catch up (south Arlington).

You’re speculating.

Well duh, that's what speculative language like "wouldn't be surprised" implies. Here's another speculation: APS almost certainly has some measure of school readiness for the student body at each elementary school.

Yes, but your speculations are not helpful at all.

Of course they are. Getting people curious about facts that can be used to direct resources effectively is very helpful. Using measures such as readiness makes it possible to accurately describe the nature of educational achievement gaps. They are not because poor kids are falling behind. They're doing better than ever. The gaps are there because well off kids, through preschool an extra curricular enrichment, are pulling up and away. It's not simply that kids at say, Jamestown are richer than those at Randolph. It's that as a result, they are availing themselves of a variety of activities that complement and strengthen classroom learning. Why wouldn't you want to quantify those things?

Yes, but it has been WIDELY KNOWN, since the late 1960s, that early childhood education provides benefits. Thus, the use of Head Start. VPI. Politicians—at least Democrats—talk about universal preschool.

[Anonymous]

Those effects do not persist. See DC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Never thought I'd see this many responses, but my takeaway is: FFX uses larger class sizes and the AAP program to manage the potential overcrowding at schools. From everything I've heard in APS over the 4-5 years we've been part of it, there is no way they'd consider tracking and AAP. Seems like a non-starter, for whatever reason. But maybe we're getting to the point where we should consider expanding class sizes. I haven't heard many negative comments about it from FFX parents, seems like it hasn't been all that detrimental to the classroom.

And no surprise we're never going to have as many options as FFX does in terms of finding land to build new schools. They have so much more flexibility in that regard. I wonder if APS needs to at least consider making the 4th HS a combined 6-12 grade school. Perhaps that could open up more options and relieve some of the busing costs? Maybe have the 6-8 grades start at a different time, to stagger the buses? Just throwing out ideas at this point.

APS doesn't do "tracking" but residential housing segregation is essentially the same thing. I bet it would be eyepopping to find out what percentage of students in each elementary school had a preschool education. At a school like Jamestown it's probably well over 90%. At Barcroft or Randolph I'd be very surprised if it cracked 50%. Kids who go to preschool start out ahead (north Arlington) or wait for the others to catch up (south Arlington).

You’re speculating.

Well duh, that's what speculative language like "wouldn't be surprised" implies. Here's another speculation: APS almost certainly has some measure of school readiness for the student body at each elementary school.

Yes, but your speculations are not helpful at all.

Of course they are. Getting people curious about facts that can be used to direct resources effectively is very helpful. Using measures such as readiness makes it possible to accurately describe the nature of educational achievement gaps. They are not because poor kids are falling behind. They're doing better than ever. The gaps are there because well off kids, through preschool an extra curricular enrichment, are pulling up and away. It's not simply that kids at say, Jamestown are richer than those at Randolph. It's that as a result, they are availing themselves of a variety of activities that complement and strengthen classroom learning. Why wouldn't you want to quantify those things?

Yes, but it has been WIDELY KNOWN, since the late 1960s, that early childhood education provides benefits. Thus, the use of Head Start. VPI. Politicians—at least Democrats—talk about universal preschool.

So what? So we should stop collecting and publishing data relevant to educational gaps? Why? Because quantifying the gulfs in preparedness, resources, and relative advantage would make some people wince, or avoid a school, or decide to devote more resources to it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So OP, are you going to flee APS for FCPS?

OP here - and no. Maybe that was a bad choice of words & I should have just said "leaving." I've just read so many posts about parents moving to FFX because of their disillusionment with APS. The geography & number of students make comparing the districts like apples to oranges. But I genuinely wanted to know if FFX was dealing with similar issues in a different way, and if so - is there anything APS can learn and implement to make the district better. Maybe on some level I'm intrigued by FFX schools, but right now we love our short commute too much to move.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Like any school system, FCPS experiences challenges around shifting population bubbles, but as whole I think the larger system gives them more resources to deal with them. People point out disparities between schools in wealthier vs. poorer areas of the county, but if you look at data of similar geographical areas or similarly large school districts, FCPS is quite notable for relative equity--the differences in achievement scores between the lowest 25% of its schools aren't as different from the upper 25% compared to other similarly sized districts (this likely has more to do with the high median income in the county rather than any specific quality of FCPS). I think people are noticing that the inequities are sharpening a bit as resources have gotten stretched thinner.
Having experienced both, I would say that FCPS as a whole is better run than APS as a whole, but individual schools vary.

Correct. If FCPS wasn’t meeting the needs of its lower-income and minority students better, the high schools other than TJ would max out as 5s on Great Schools, just like Yorktown, and more would be 3s and 4s like Wakefield and W-L.

No, the new GS methodology rewards economically segregated schools. It doesn't compare how disadvantaged students are doing to each other, between schools, or as compared to the statewide or system averages. It compares how they are doing relative to the non-disadvantaged students within their schools. So schools with more homogeneously wealthy populations have the highest scores, and schools with a statistically measurable cohort of disadvantaged students had scores that went down. To expect the same outcome from kids who are living completely different lives and being exposed to completely disparate enrichment and vocabulary and experience is absurd. This is completely wrong from an educational standpoint and rewards proficiency rather than growth, which is not a true measure of school performance or excellence. The schools with scores that went down the most were schools where economic disparity amount its students was the greatest, such as Yorktown, where there are a good number of families in the 1%, as well as a statistically significant number of families whose students qualify for fr/l and who live in subsidized housing in Rosslyn.

Please. So sick of hearing this.
Yorktown fRL percentage is smaller than other schools that didn’t take the same hit
West Springfield....
As a south Arlington parent you jerks couldn’t shut up at GS rating a few years ago.
Turns out Wakefield has the same outcome for snowflakes as Yorktown...
As far as I’m concerned Great Schools is just as relevant as it’s always been.

Yes, previous PP - you start by saying that GS rewards economically segregated schools.
Then you proceed to show that Yorktown is economically segregated. But Yorktown’s rating sank to a 5.
You could also have said that GS rewards more homogenous schools - again Yorktown is much more homogeneous than W-L.
Both scores are abysmal. 5 and 4. There are other schools on GS that have the same demographics as Yorktown and score 10/10.

Name the school.

New poster. Marshall is more diverse and has a higher GS score.

A 10 out of 10?

Nope, Marshall is only a 7.

Exactly. So the above statement is complete crap.

Under the new GS scores, there is only one high school rated 10, and it's a by-application alternative high school in Richmond. TJ is unrated.

Interesting. I wonder why they moved it to unrated. The data is all there. Maybe they have moved it to an “elite public” status and stopped ranking it against other schools. Maggie Walker, the other Governors School in Richmond is also unrated.

[Anonymous]

GS is crap.

[Anonymous]

Greatschools has recently revised their methodology again. Lots of numbers changed.

[Anonymous]

Fleeing. When I hear this word in the context of schools, I picture white flight.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So OP, are you going to flee APS for FCPS?

OP here, and no - no plans to do that. Maybe bad choice of words? I definitely wouldn't rule out FFX if our jobs changed or we needed to cut back on housing costs, but for now we're pretty set in Arlington. I certainly wasn't looking to start a "trash APS" or "denigrate FCPS" thread. I just wanted to know if a much larger county had come up with solutions that APS might be able to adapt or borrow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So OP, are you going to flee APS for FCPS?

OP here, and no - no plans to do that. Maybe bad choice of words? I definitely wouldn't rule out FFX if our jobs changed or we needed to cut back on housing costs, but for now we're pretty set in Arlington. I certainly wasn't looking to start a "trash APS" or "denigrate FCPS" thread. I just wanted to know if a much larger county had come up with solutions that APS might be able to adapt or borrow.

Not going to read the entire thread, but FCPS renovated and built additions to existing schools. APS built new schools and failed to add enough seats.

Maybe that's not a solution, but it's certainly more common sense than APS has shown.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So OP, are you going to flee APS for FCPS?

OP here, and no - no plans to do that. Maybe bad choice of words? I definitely wouldn't rule out FFX if our jobs changed or we needed to cut back on housing costs, but for now we're pretty set in Arlington. I certainly wasn't looking to start a "trash APS" or "denigrate FCPS" thread. I just wanted to know if a much larger county had come up with solutions that APS might be able to adapt or borrow.

Not going to read the entire thread, but FCPS renovated and built additions to existing schools. APS built new schools and failed to add enough seats.

Maybe that's not a solution, but it's certainly more common sense than APS has shown.

APS has also renovated and built additions to existing schools in addition to building new schools. Their biggest fail IMO was not building the HS's bigger when they had a chance.

[Anonymous]

There are always more people moving from Arlington to Fairfax than vice versa. That's just how it works, and it predates the recent spate of APS-related issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So OP, are you going to flee APS for FCPS?

OP here, and no - no plans to do that. Maybe bad choice of words? I definitely wouldn't rule out FFX if our jobs changed or we needed to cut back on housing costs, but for now we're pretty set in Arlington. I certainly wasn't looking to start a "trash APS" or "denigrate FCPS" thread. I just wanted to know if a much larger county had come up with solutions that APS might be able to adapt or borrow.

Not going to read the entire thread, but FCPS renovated and built additions to existing schools. APS built new schools and failed to add enough seats.

Maybe that's not a solution, but it's certainly more common sense than APS has shown.

APS has also renovated and built additions to existing schools in addition to building new schools. Their biggest fail IMO was not building the HS's bigger when they had a chance.

Which is really hard to understand. The DMV probably has more demographers than any area of the country, and they couldn't find an accurate estimate of what their capacity needs would be? Or is it that they got the right advice, but simply disregarded it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So OP, are you going to flee APS for FCPS?

OP here, and no - no plans to do that. Maybe bad choice of words? I definitely wouldn't rule out FFX if our jobs changed or we needed to cut back on housing costs, but for now we're pretty set in Arlington. I certainly wasn't looking to start a "trash APS" or "denigrate FCPS" thread. I just wanted to know if a much larger county had come up with solutions that APS might be able to adapt or borrow.

Not going to read the entire thread, but FCPS renovated and built additions to existing schools. APS built new schools and failed to add enough seats.

Maybe that's not a solution, but it's certainly more common sense than APS has shown.

APS has also renovated and built additions to existing schools in addition to building new schools. Their biggest fail IMO was not building the HS's bigger when they had a chance.

Which is really hard to understand. The DMV probably has more demographers than any area of the country, and they couldn't find an accurate estimate of what their capacity needs would be? Or is it that they got the right advice, but simply disregarded it?

Arlington didn’t really understand how amazingly popular it would become, or that couples with young kids would stick around longer, rather than shuffle off to Fairfax. But they got it wrong, no doubt. Here’s hoping they know what to do when amazon moves in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So OP, are you going to flee APS for FCPS?

OP here, and no - no plans to do that. Maybe bad choice of words? I definitely wouldn't rule out FFX if our jobs changed or we needed to cut back on housing costs, but for now we're pretty set in Arlington. I certainly wasn't looking to start a "trash APS" or "denigrate FCPS" thread. I just wanted to know if a much larger county had come up with solutions that APS might be able to adapt or borrow.

It’s an apples versus oranges comparison. But in terms of overall quality, Fairfax is the gold standard.