Madison H.S. Parents - Principal Survey and Skills-Based Grading

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Baltimore students in the entire city are failing at a rate of 93% below national standards. Why would we implement similar policies here?

As PP noted FCPS wants to emulate Baltimore and close the achievement gap and achieve success.

Raising the floor is just too hard for the folks at Gatehouse. SBG will drive out the good teachers and leave the lazy ones who will just randomly enter grades and move the herd along.

SBG will be the death of FCPS.

[Anonymous]

I will say that I’ve seen this action for my Oakton kid. He’s in Honors Biology and had some incredibly difficult tests in cellular respiration, DNA sequencing etc. all 3 quarters he has been middle of the road. Solid b minus. His last two tests have been on such easy subject matters this quarter that his most recently tested “skills” have wiped out, basically, the last 3 quarters. That’s because he gets the highest grade of EITHER his last tested skill grade, or an average throughout the year. So, my B- biology kid now has an A minus. And as much as I love him, he does not deserve that A minus

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I will say that I’ve seen this action for my Oakton kid. He’s in Honors Biology and had some incredibly difficult tests in cellular respiration, DNA sequencing etc. all 3 quarters he has been middle of the road. Solid b minus. His last two tests have been on such easy subject matters this quarter that his most recently tested “skills” have wiped out, basically, the last 3 quarters. That’s because he gets the highest grade of EITHER his last tested skill grade, or an average throughout the year. So, my B- biology kid now has an A minus. And as much as I love him, he does not deserve that A minus

Jmhs will not be like this. Grades will be going down, unlike the rest of the county.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will say that I’ve seen this action for my Oakton kid. He’s in Honors Biology and had some incredibly difficult tests in cellular respiration, DNA sequencing etc. all 3 quarters he has been middle of the road. Solid b minus. His last two tests have been on such easy subject matters this quarter that his most recently tested “skills” have wiped out, basically, the last 3 quarters. That’s because he gets the highest grade of EITHER his last tested skill grade, or an average throughout the year. So, my B- biology kid now has an A minus. And as much as I love him, he does not deserve that A minus

Jmhs will not be like this. Grades will be going down, unlike the rest of the county.

Watch the video. This is exactly what Madison will look like next year. The reason why parents can’t agree on inflation or deflation is because it wasn’t applied consistently. They are implementing a system meant for the students who struggle the most in FCPS for all students at Madison. In the video it talks about how “trending” was previously reserved in FCPS for students in danger of failing a course. Now “trending” will be used for all Madison students. Are the people in charge ok? No.

[Anonymous]

It also just builds bad habits and sends wrong messages. Your grade will change from the past if you do better in the future? That just seems unfair and for no other work. Say someone has a B in a skill all first quarter on both tests but another person fails the first test and then gets an A on the 2nd test they then get an A for the quarter without doing any work from before? There are just so many things wrong with this system and so much extra work. I would really like to know where this proposal came from and why Madison is implementing it. I do not believe any teacher or student or parent proposed this system.

[Anonymous]

Here is the problem with SGB. In principle it helps all students reach their full potential. If school systems were rated on that factor then it might be successful. If teachers were rated on consistently implementing the process and ensured that students would be fully engaged it would be successful.

But here is the reality, administrators are graded on closing “the achievement gap”. Teachers are overwhelmed and rated on things like taking woke training and a dozen other things they shouldn’t have to do, so that part of the theory falls apart.

In the end what gets measured gets done. So you get the results you have in Baltimore, there is “no achievement gap” because everyone is not proficient.

Kids both gifted and average suffer and ultimately society as a whole suffers.

[Anonymous]

Disagree that in principle it helps all students reach their full potential. In principle it makes sure children don't fail. That's the purpose of it. There is no greater goal of it.

[Anonymous]

I just read an interesting critique of a teacher that tried to make SBG work for years while teaching in DC.
http://www.anurbanteacherseducation.com/2019/05/a-critique-of-standards-based-grading.html

This article is full of interesting ideas about education but here are a couple of interesting paragraphs:

"One of my biggest struggles was what to do with activities that seemed to be valuable for learning but didn't seem to connect with a standard, or activities that could fit five or six standards at the same time. Then there was the challenge of determining whether the assessments I gave actually assessed a standard. (Many professional developers in the world of SBG will spend hours with teachers "unpacking" a standard, claiming that most people don't really understand what's in the standard, as if reading what it says is not enough for your average teacher.) And then there were the mental acrobatics involved in finding a way to push all of those rubrics with circles on them into a single letter grade for students' transcripts."

This is what I assume will be happening this year at Madison: § Consultants will be brought in to help design better assessments

"In my beginning years, I was a vocal advocate for SBG, assuming that many of my challenges would fade with more practice. Over time, however, I ran up against problems that I began to see as immovable walls. Three or four years ago, I stopped advocating for SBG. I began to understand that there are serious limitations to the practice, and I began to suspect that it needs a much clearer analysis than what most teachers have access to in schools where administrators effectively function as SBG propagandists."

Later on he makes an argument for the following:
"Standards, as I see them, are best suited to serve as reference guides for professional educators who are entrusted to guide the learning of young people who they know and love."

He goes on to say:
"And when we understand this, we understand that the way we employ standards and grades is a question of equity, in that our grading practices either support all students in becoming their best selves or they don't."

I think there are currently many great educators at Madison. The administration should back off and let these teachers do what they always have and grade the way they want. A great idea would be to give experienced teachers that have been identified as highly effective a mentorship role for incoming teachers. This could be done by giving a new teacher one less class to teach so they could observe the "master teacher" for 1 period.

Why not copy what we know works. This is a way of improving instruction for all.

[Anonymous]

Meant to write "from a teacher"

I just read an interesting critique of a teacher that tried to make SBG work for years while teaching in DC.
http://www.anurbanteacherseducation.com/2019/...s-based-grading.html

[Anonymous]

Is the school board actually looking at this issue? When?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The first page says it takes way more time for a teacher to implement and that it’s hard to raise an overall grade during the year. There you’ve got your answer that it’s a bad way of grading.

I'm not sure if you are aware of how averages work when you add more numbers to the set that is being averaged??? The fewer numbers (graded work) in the set (ie. earlier in the school year when there have only been 5 graded assignment), the more impact a new number has when added to the set. As the year progresses, you now have 35 numbers in the set that gets averaged.... so each number has less impact on the average, and it is harder to change the average as new numbers (i.e. graded work) are added.

That's not a flaw of skills-based grading. That's just a mathematical fact of averages over the course of a year. As you add more grades, it takes a lot more deviation from the mean to actually pull the mean in one direction or the other. It may be harder to INCREASE your overall grade in April, but it's also harder to DECREASE your overall grade in April -- because all of your grades up to that point have lead to the grade that you have (i.e. the average of all your work so far).

If you liked having quarter grades where each quarter was a fresh start -- you are essentially saying that you liked being mislead to believe that you were doing better at the beginning of each quarter, without knowing how that would impact your final grade. You essentially prefer to be ignorant of where you truly stand, and you liked the mirage. The rolling grade book gives you the most up-to-date information on what your kid's grade is at any point in the year. Some people like those fun-house-mirrors what make you look skinnier than you are --- that's kind of what quarter grading is vs. the reality of rolling grade book. Which-- by the way -- is NOT the same as skills based grading. Those are two different issues.

If you are going to argue against something -- try to make an argument that is legitimate.

I don't see it that way. The rolling gradebook is another issue we aren't discussing so it doesn't contribute to this discussion. This discussion is on the elimination of smaller assignments and only focusing on several heavily weighted grades. The practice assignments used to be about 20% of the grade and they worked to help the child do better on the final assessment. So they were both a grade* 20% of the final grade averaged or a grade contributing to homework and a means to achieve a higher score on the final assessments. In this way perhaps they contributed to the 20% of the grade and also let's say 50% of the final assessment grade because if you do this work and do it well, you likely will do well on the final assessment.

In the previous grading example, Child A gets a B (3.0) on the 20% of these assignments an A- on the final (3.6) worth 80% of the grade. The started out with some D's on the practice, maybe an F for missing an assignment, but then learned what the teacher wanted and learned the skill better and so on the final assessment were able to do better than if they didn't do the practice work. Average for this child is (3.6*0.8)+(2.9*0.2)=3.46 or an A-.

Now take the scenario where these other assignments don't count. Any student such as Child B that does not want to put in the work to be sure they get an A or will not assess their own work correctly and will either not do the work or not do it well and with less feedback will not be as prepared for the final assessment. They will be told that this other work doesn't matter that much and won't get feedback and that will decrease their interest in doing the work. Then instead of that A- they might have gotten with all the other assignments completed beforehand, they will likely get a B on the final assessment since its the first time they are actually being graded on these skills.

But there is nothing preventing the child from doing practice just because it isn't graded. Isn't that a good skill to learn? Practice for the sake of getting better at something vs. doing a worksheet for points (motivating them to copy/cheat/rush/turn in junk just to check the box?) Their grade is a far more accurate reflection of what they are capable of doing when you only grade assessments.

I do think there is an immaturity piece that lower classman will struggle to grasp the importance of doing the practice, but if you're going to grade it it should be no more than 5 or 10% of the grade. 20% is insanity, especially when you get 50% for writing your name on the paper. Then a kid who gets 50% on all assessments but 100% for their "effort" in doing the classwork will pass the class despite not being able to demonstrate any knowledge.

Also an F is not 50% as meaning they get credit for something. I wish people would recognize this. On a point scale it is 0-0.7. It makes no sense to give someone a -4.0 just because they didn't do an assignment. The 50 is just correcting a math issue with grades that only go from A-F. https://www.fcps.edu/academics/grading-and-reporting/secondary/grading-scale

https://www.fcps.edu/academics/grading-and-reporting/secondary/grading-scale

Depends on the school. In my 4.0 gradebook if I type “missing” it auto defaults to 2/4 as per school policy.

I don't see how that is any different. Again a 50% grade will still be a 0-0.7. Some people do not understand math. It makes no sense for a D to be at 64 and an F to be at zero or for a D to be at 0.8 and an F to be at negative 4

There is a difference between an F where the child knows 40% of the material and an F where the child either knows 0% or attempted 0%. Entering a higher grade for a non submission or a lower grade hides this distinction. There is absolutely no reason for a student to receive any credit for something where they expended zero effort.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It also just builds bad habits and sends wrong messages. Your grade will change from the past if you do better in the future? That just seems unfair and for no other work. Say someone has a B in a skill all first quarter on both tests but another person fails the first test and then gets an A on the 2nd test they then get an A for the quarter without doing any work from before? There are just so many things wrong with this system and so much extra work. I would really like to know where this proposal came from and why Madison is implementing it. I do not believe any teacher or student or parent proposed this system.

This also seems to be totally opposite of the rolling gradebook.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:The first page says it takes way more time for a teacher to implement and that it’s hard to raise an overall grade during the year. There you’ve got your answer that it’s a bad way of grading.

I'm not sure if you are aware of how averages work when you add more numbers to the set that is being averaged??? The fewer numbers (graded work) in the set (ie. earlier in the school year when there have only been 5 graded assignment), the more impact a new number has when added to the set. As the year progresses, you now have 35 numbers in the set that gets averaged.... so each number has less impact on the average, and it is harder to change the average as new numbers (i.e. graded work) are added.

That's not a flaw of skills-based grading. That's just a mathematical fact of averages over the course of a year. As you add more grades, it takes a lot more deviation from the mean to actually pull the mean in one direction or the other. It may be harder to INCREASE your overall grade in April, but it's also harder to DECREASE your overall grade in April -- because all of your grades up to that point have lead to the grade that you have (i.e. the average of all your work so far).

If you liked having quarter grades where each quarter was a fresh start -- you are essentially saying that you liked being mislead to believe that you were doing better at the beginning of each quarter, without knowing how that would impact your final grade. You essentially prefer to be ignorant of where you truly stand, and you liked the mirage. The rolling grade book gives you the most up-to-date information on what your kid's grade is at any point in the year. Some people like those fun-house-mirrors what make you look skinnier than you are --- that's kind of what quarter grading is vs. the reality of rolling grade book. Which-- by the way -- is NOT the same as skills based grading. Those are two different issues.

If you are going to argue against something -- try to make an argument that is legitimate.

I don't see it that way. The rolling gradebook is another issue we aren't discussing so it doesn't contribute to this discussion. This discussion is on the elimination of smaller assignments and only focusing on several heavily weighted grades. The practice assignments used to be about 20% of the grade and they worked to help the child do better on the final assessment. So they were both a grade* 20% of the final grade averaged or a grade contributing to homework and a means to achieve a higher score on the final assessments. In this way perhaps they contributed to the 20% of the grade and also let's say 50% of the final assessment grade because if you do this work and do it well, you likely will do well on the final assessment.

In the previous grading example, Child A gets a B (3.0) on the 20% of these assignments an A- on the final (3.6) worth 80% of the grade. The started out with some D's on the practice, maybe an F for missing an assignment, but then learned what the teacher wanted and learned the skill better and so on the final assessment were able to do better than if they didn't do the practice work. Average for this child is (3.6*0.8)+(2.9*0.2)=3.46 or an A-.

Now take the scenario where these other assignments don't count. Any student such as Child B that does not want to put in the work to be sure they get an A or will not assess their own work correctly and will either not do the work or not do it well and with less feedback will not be as prepared for the final assessment. They will be told that this other work doesn't matter that much and won't get feedback and that will decrease their interest in doing the work. Then instead of that A- they might have gotten with all the other assignments completed beforehand, they will likely get a B on the final assessment since its the first time they are actually being graded on these skills.

But there is nothing preventing the child from doing practice just because it isn't graded. Isn't that a good skill to learn? Practice for the sake of getting better at something vs. doing a worksheet for points (motivating them to copy/cheat/rush/turn in junk just to check the box?) Their grade is a far more accurate reflection of what they are capable of doing when you only grade assessments.

I do think there is an immaturity piece that lower classman will struggle to grasp the importance of doing the practice, but if you're going to grade it it should be no more than 5 or 10% of the grade. 20% is insanity, especially when you get 50% for writing your name on the paper. Then a kid who gets 50% on all assessments but 100% for their "effort" in doing the classwork will pass the class despite not being able to demonstrate any knowledge.

Also an F is not 50% as meaning they get credit for something. I wish people would recognize this. On a point scale it is 0-0.7. It makes no sense to give someone a -4.0 just because they didn't do an assignment. The 50 is just correcting a math issue with grades that only go from A-F. https://www.fcps.edu/academics/grading-and-reporting/secondary/grading-scale

https://www.fcps.edu/academics/grading-and-reporting/secondary/grading-scale

Depends on the school. In my 4.0 gradebook if I type “missing” it auto defaults to 2/4 as per school policy.

I don't see how that is any different. Again a 50% grade will still be a 0-0.7. Some people do not understand math. It makes no sense for a D to be at 64 and an F to be at zero or for a D to be at 0.8 and an F to be at negative 4

There is a difference between an F where the child knows 40% of the material and an F where the child either knows 0% or attempted 0%. Entering a higher grade for a non submission or a lower grade hides this distinction. There is absolutely no reason for a student to receive any credit for something where they expended zero effort.

I believe this policy is FCPS-wide now. I don't know when it started, possibly during the pandemic. I think that Gatehouse has implemented equity grading to some degree across FCPS and hidden it from the community. Homework assigned is optional and students can't receive anything below a 50 are two that I can think of that are most likely at every FCPS school. There is a big difference in students that score 0-30, and the students that score in the 50 range. The students need different levels of intervention. The former usually are never in class. They just leave and security chases them around and might bring them back. If they find themselves in class without a way out, they will insist they need to see their counselor immediately. Or they sit in the. back with air pods listening to music. If you insist on talking to them directly, they take 1 air pod out. These students have checked out completely and represent a very small number.

I think the policy of nothing lower than a 50 hides this small group of kids that show up at school with no intention to learn anything. They are given accommodations (when I was teaching - it was "walking time" in the hallway and listening to music (a dumb idea that some students learn better when listening to music, because we all have different ways of learning).

This group of kids is very small. I would only have maybe 1 student in each class like this. They should probably not be in a general classroom, but in some sort of intervention program. They should NOT be graduating. These kids are perfectly capable of doing the work, but for some reason they've checked out. I think its possible to reach these kids - it's just with 30 kids in a class - it's hard to meet everyone's needs.

I think this small group needs something radical. A stricter environment with higher expectations. By hiding their true performance and graduating them, we are completely giving up on these students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is the school board actually looking at this issue? When?

No. They are aware there is a lack of consistency in grading across FCPS. The issue at Madison is not a priority for anyone at Gatehouse or on current SB.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is the school board actually looking at this issue? When?

No. They are aware there is a lack of consistency in grading across FCPS. The issue at Madison is not a priority for anyone at Gatehouse or on current SB.

That's very sad. Why do they not want consistent grading across their high schools? That seems pretty basic a standard for a high school system to meet.