Why do donut hole families

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Poor people do not have more options. Most truly poor people are not in the college pipeline.

Additionally, if those "donut hole" families lived like the poor people, rented where they rent, shopped where they shop, etc., they'd have tons of options too. Just saying.

+1

I get that some have special circumstances--medical debt or something unforeseen. But most donut hole families that I know made choices to spend elsewhere. New iPhone every year, 2 Starbucks trips per day, eating lunch out daily, eating half of dinners out, taking really nice vacations, new cars every 3-4 years, etc. Yes those are all "small things" in the grand scheme of savings, but that is just what is visible to me---I'm sure there is much more I don't even see. Someone with a mindset like that is choosing to spend on things when they could choose to save.
We knew our kids would get no aid, so we started saving as soon as they were born. We didn't start living a luxury lifestyle until we could afford it. We paid only 50% of what we could easily afford for our first house and lived there for 7 years. Sure we could afford a newer/nicer home, but we did not need it, this house had 4 bedrooms and 2.5 baths so enough space for a young family---it was relatively speaking much nicer than the apartment we came from. So we lived nicely but not luxuriously and saved the extras. We drove cars for 8-10 years and saved to pay cash for the next ones.
We also choose to not have kids until 30, so that allowed us to consciously save the extra salary and live off of basically one. We aggressively paid off all student loans, invested in our retirement. Other than our honeymoon, I was 35 before I took a "fancy vacation", yet we could have easily afforded to do so at 25/26. But that restraint allowed us to front load saving for college and then we could change our lifestyle as desired.

Same here. Our children can go almost anywhere, but only because we got started saving early and let the savings compound. We never made more than $120K either, but we've always banked at least one income. The irony is that we can now afford to live on one modest income and maintain our lifestyle. Plus, since most of our money is tucked away in retirement accounts and our house is paid off, our EFC is pretty low.

I always think about our situation when people on this board talk about not getting married until you are much older. It's a choice, but you don't get to set your family up nearly as well as if you partnered up earlier in life. However, there is nothing wrong with state schools and lower ranked colleges either.

Exactly. It's all about choices. And of course, nothing wrong with any college. Pick what works for your family, pick what's affordable. But if you choose to have kids before you have paid off your own college debt, it will be harder to save for college and that choice will impact your kid's college choices, just a simple fact of life. Life is about choices, and you get to live with the consequences of your choices as a responsible adult

Right, and if you don't have many or any choices, you are irresponsible. The fact that college costs have far outpaced inflation for decades - increasing by almost 144% in two decades - isn't relevant.

Right?

Obviously that is an issue. And we should work to address that, but given that majority of colleges are private not much can/will be done. However, there ARE affordable options to get an education and that’s the goal. So if you can’t afford on choice search for what you can afford. Not everything in life is fair, but majority of people can afford to get a college degree—just not at a top U for some

The only real affordable options out there for the AVERAGE American (not the "feel poor" DCUMers making $300k per year) is community college or commuting to a state university. Look up average HHIs around the country and tell me how these people are supposed to sock away hundreds of dollars per month for their kid to live on campus at even a state university? And then do that for multiple kids. It's just not reality for most. I'm not saying these are bad options but lets not pretend they're not limited.

I will never cease to be shocked by the clueless posters on here who think people could fully fund college if only they never got Starbucks, got rid of cable, or stop driving BMWs.

The affordable options are the schools that meet full need through only grants. There is a reason there there is so much pressure and competition to get into those schools

[Anonymous]

https://jeffselingo.com/

See above link to access Jeff Selingo’s list of colleges that are buyers and sellers.

I am assuming the length of this thread is, in part, a function of nerves as parents wait for their kids application results.

I just want to say that this horse is long dead.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Poor people do not have more options. Most truly poor people are not in the college pipeline.

Additionally, if those "donut hole" families lived like the poor people, rented where they rent, shopped where they shop, etc., they'd have tons of options too. Just saying.

+1

I get that some have special circumstances--medical debt or something unforeseen. But most donut hole families that I know made choices to spend elsewhere. New iPhone every year, 2 Starbucks trips per day, eating lunch out daily, eating half of dinners out, taking really nice vacations, new cars every 3-4 years, etc. Yes those are all "small things" in the grand scheme of savings, but that is just what is visible to me---I'm sure there is much more I don't even see. Someone with a mindset like that is choosing to spend on things when they could choose to save.
We knew our kids would get no aid, so we started saving as soon as they were born. We didn't start living a luxury lifestyle until we could afford it. We paid only 50% of what we could easily afford for our first house and lived there for 7 years. Sure we could afford a newer/nicer home, but we did not need it, this house had 4 bedrooms and 2.5 baths so enough space for a young family---it was relatively speaking much nicer than the apartment we came from. So we lived nicely but not luxuriously and saved the extras. We drove cars for 8-10 years and saved to pay cash for the next ones.
We also choose to not have kids until 30, so that allowed us to consciously save the extra salary and live off of basically one. We aggressively paid off all student loans, invested in our retirement. Other than our honeymoon, I was 35 before I took a "fancy vacation", yet we could have easily afforded to do so at 25/26. But that restraint allowed us to front load saving for college and then we could change our lifestyle as desired.

Same here. Our children can go almost anywhere, but only because we got started saving early and let the savings compound. We never made more than $120K either, but we've always banked at least one income. The irony is that we can now afford to live on one modest income and maintain our lifestyle. Plus, since most of our money is tucked away in retirement accounts and our house is paid off, our EFC is pretty low.

I always think about our situation when people on this board talk about not getting married until you are much older. It's a choice, but you don't get to set your family up nearly as well as if you partnered up earlier in life. However, there is nothing wrong with state schools and lower ranked colleges either.

Exactly. It's all about choices. And of course, nothing wrong with any college. Pick what works for your family, pick what's affordable. But if you choose to have kids before you have paid off your own college debt, it will be harder to save for college and that choice will impact your kid's college choices, just a simple fact of life. Life is about choices, and you get to live with the consequences of your choices as a responsible adult

Right, and if you don't have many or any choices, you are irresponsible. The fact that college costs have far outpaced inflation for decades - increasing by almost 144% in two decades - isn't relevant.

Right?

Obviously that is an issue. And we should work to address that, but given that majority of colleges are private not much can/will be done. However, there ARE affordable options to get an education and that’s the goal. So if you can’t afford on choice search for what you can afford. Not everything in life is fair, but majority of people can afford to get a college degree—just not at a top U for some

The only real affordable options out there for the AVERAGE American (not the "feel poor" DCUMers making $300k per year) is community college or commuting to a state university. Look up average HHIs around the country and tell me how these people are supposed to sock away hundreds of dollars per month for their kid to live on campus at even a state university? And then do that for multiple kids. It's just not reality for most. I'm not saying these are bad options but lets not pretend they're not limited.

I will never cease to be shocked by the clueless posters on here who think people could fully fund college if only they never got Starbucks, got rid of cable, or stop driving BMWs.

The affordable options are the schools that meet full need through only grants. There is a reason there there is so much pressure and competition to get into those schools

There are 21 schools, out of more than 3K that do this for middle income families.

And, to be clear, they are offering a package that allows a family who feels they can afford their EFC to send their kid with no loans. Almost no one's EFC feels affordable. If someone is claiming to be a "donut hole" family, it's because their EFC does not feel affordable to them, and they feel that it requires loans to pay. I don't know why someone who believes their EFC gave them a number that is too hard to pay, believes that all the people with lower incomes than them have EFC's they can pay.

Anyway, here's the list. Other than Berea and Ozarks, all of those schools are highly rejective. Any student who gets into one of those will also have other strong options that give merit. The idea that someone who gets into a school on that list, and decides they can't afford it, won't get merit without going to Frostburg, is absurd. Those kids will have options.

Amherst College
Berea College
Bowdoin College
Brown University
Colby College
College of the Ozarks
Columbia University
Davidson College
Grinnell College
Harvard University
Johns Hopkins University
Northwestern University
Pomona College
Princeton University
Stanford University
Swarthmore College
University of Chicago
University of Pennsylvania
Vanderbilt University
Washington and Lee University
Yale University

[Anonymous]

I started my Ivy four/five years after immigrating to the U.S. my parents were poor and only got off welfare maybe a year before I started college. I had financial aid, worked, AND took out loans, but tuition then was so much more affordable, for lack of a better word. Now in a similar situation, I would've gone for free because my parents' income was so low. My kids will also have to take out loans if they want to go to an Ivy (if they get in because it's also so much harder now). We are a donut hole family despite, as others have said, having done everything right. Salaries have not kept up with the insane increase in college costs.

[Anonymous]

Wait, is the term donut hole referring to the hole inside the donut, or the round circle donut that you would eat? Can someone explain the metaphor? I understand sandwich generation but I can’t conceptualist it if I can’t even visualize which part of the donut we’re talking about.

Guys, I’m serious. Sorry to just bring this up at page 19!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s insane that our $250K family did not get 1 penny FA for a $60K/year school.

We were also not always $250K family, we were closer to $160/year, then $180K for a few years. Plus the $250 includes one of us having 2 jobs.

My H is a cop and I was a GS-13 most our lives so we could not really save that much.

Were you surprised by the outcome? Did you just assume your child would get a lot of financial aid the entire 18 years they were growing up? I am honestly curious because so many people screaming “donut hole” seemed shocked and outraged when college comes around and they are not getting financial aid. Were you reading newspapers or financial magazines or anything for the last 2 decades?

I was most surprised when my income increased so much in 4 years. We mostly made $160-$180K so we knew we were screwed either way. Making $250K is all in the last 3 years .

But the donut hole issue we saw it coming. Luckily we have an athlete and gamed the system that way. He got a 60 % scholarship too a T 30 school.

My other son did the SEC in state route.

I’m not shocked or outraged at out situation. I do think it’s an outrage that if a child’s mother marries some dude when she is in college she has to drop out because his income invalidates her FA.

My H a cop. I’m a govt worker… I had no expectations of a T30 school. But I can still look at a system critically and see it is set up badly.

Or the parent can wait until the child leaves school. I know folks who've done this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wait, is the term donut hole referring to the hole inside the donut, or the round circle donut that you would eat? Can someone explain the metaphor? I understand sandwich generation but I can’t conceptualist it if I can’t even visualize which part of the donut we’re talking about.

Guys, I’m serious. Sorry to just bring this up at page 19!

The metaphor is that all around you there are people having their cake and eating it too, and you are in this tiny hole where you and only people like you (UMC people) have to struggle to pay for college. It's based on some bizarre misunderstandings about financial aid, and ignores the fact that most people who receive financial aid also struggle to pay for college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wait, is the term donut hole referring to the hole inside the donut, or the round circle donut that you would eat? Can someone explain the metaphor? I understand sandwich generation but I can’t conceptualist it if I can’t even visualize which part of the donut we’re talking about.

Guys, I’m serious. Sorry to just bring this up at page 19!

From ChatGPT:
The term "donut hole tuition" generally refers to the gap between the financial aid and scholarships a student receives and the actual cost of tuition. This means that the student or their family is responsible for paying the difference between what financial aid covers and the remaining cost of tuition.

The term "donut hole" is used because it describes the situation where the student's financial aid covers some of the tuition costs, but not enough to cover the entire amount, leaving a gap in the middle that the family has to fill. This situation can be particularly challenging for families who do not qualify for need-based financial aid but still have difficulty affording the full cost of tuition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One reason we complain is that we are also sandwich generation families, not just donut holes. Our families made less money when we were kids, so we received financial aid in college, took out student loans, then excelled in life, got good jobs, but spent so much $$$ paying off student loans that we didn't have enough cash to save for our own kids' colleges. However, we earn enough now to receive no financial aid, and can probably only afford in-state tuition and not full-pay private tuition, so that's why we're upset. And now some of us sandwich generation have to give money to provide for our aging parents (who were not earning much $$ to begin with) all while figuring out how to pay for our kids' educations. When I went to undergrad, tuition was $17k at a top 10/15 private university. Now that tuition is $60k. It's just sad.

This is my personal story, so not everyone is in the same boat. We have saved enough in 529s for all 3 kids to go to in-state schools. We could use cash flow + 529 for one child if they get into a private worth paying full price for. This is where it's sad because we can't afford to do that for all 3, but oh well, what are the odds they'll all 3 be smart enough to get into a top 10/15 school anyway? There is no guarantee that they will have the same experiences that I had and I accept that.

Why isn’t in-state good enough for people? Stop going after prestige and prestigious institutions.There, problem solved! You are welcome

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Because $25K+ a year for tuition room and board is an awful lot of money even for families that make a good living. Especially if you have multiple kids.

$25 K a year is a bargain. Our family's net contribution is around $38,000 a year. Per kid. (2 kids). We make around $250,000 as a household.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Poor people do not have more options. Most truly poor people are not in the college pipeline.

Additionally, if those "donut hole" families lived like the poor people, rented where they rent, shopped where they shop, etc., they'd have tons of options too. Just saying.

+1

I get that some have special circumstances--medical debt or something unforeseen. But most donut hole families that I know made choices to spend elsewhere. New iPhone every year, 2 Starbucks trips per day, eating lunch out daily, eating half of dinners out, taking really nice vacations, new cars every 3-4 years, etc. Yes those are all "small things" in the grand scheme of savings, but that is just what is visible to me---I'm sure there is much more I don't even see. Someone with a mindset like that is choosing to spend on things when they could choose to save.
We knew our kids would get no aid, so we started saving as soon as they were born. We didn't start living a luxury lifestyle until we could afford it. We paid only 50% of what we could easily afford for our first house and lived there for 7 years. Sure we could afford a newer/nicer home, but we did not need it, this house had 4 bedrooms and 2.5 baths so enough space for a young family---it was relatively speaking much nicer than the apartment we came from. So we lived nicely but not luxuriously and saved the extras. We drove cars for 8-10 years and saved to pay cash for the next ones.
We also choose to not have kids until 30, so that allowed us to consciously save the extra salary and live off of basically one. We aggressively paid off all student loans, invested in our retirement. Other than our honeymoon, I was 35 before I took a "fancy vacation", yet we could have easily afforded to do so at 25/26. But that restraint allowed us to front load saving for college and then we could change our lifestyle as desired.

Same here. Our children can go almost anywhere, but only because we got started saving early and let the savings compound. We never made more than $120K either, but we've always banked at least one income. The irony is that we can now afford to live on one modest income and maintain our lifestyle. Plus, since most of our money is tucked away in retirement accounts and our house is paid off, our EFC is pretty low.

I always think about our situation when people on this board talk about not getting married until you are much older. It's a choice, but you don't get to set your family up nearly as well as if you partnered up earlier in life. However, there is nothing wrong with state schools and lower ranked colleges either.

Exactly. It's all about choices. And of course, nothing wrong with any college. Pick what works for your family, pick what's affordable. But if you choose to have kids before you have paid off your own college debt, it will be harder to save for college and that choice will impact your kid's college choices, just a simple fact of life. Life is about choices, and you get to live with the consequences of your choices as a responsible adult

Right, and if you don't have many or any choices, you are irresponsible. The fact that college costs have far outpaced inflation for decades - increasing by almost 144% in two decades - isn't relevant.

Right?

Obviously that is an issue. And we should work to address that, but given that majority of colleges are private not much can/will be done. However, there ARE affordable options to get an education and that’s the goal. So if you can’t afford on choice search for what you can afford. Not everything in life is fair, but majority of people can afford to get a college degree—just not at a top U for some

The only real affordable options out there for the AVERAGE American (not the "feel poor" DCUMers making $300k per year) is community college or commuting to a state university. Look up average HHIs around the country and tell me how these people are supposed to sock away hundreds of dollars per month for their kid to live on campus at even a state university? And then do that for multiple kids. It's just not reality for most. I'm not saying these are bad options but lets not pretend they're not limited.

I will never cease to be shocked by the clueless posters on here who think people could fully fund college if only they never got Starbucks, got rid of cable, or stop driving BMWs.

Stoping starbucks is not going to fully fund college for you. But The mentality of being frugal will go a long way. And buy a $25K car instead of a $60K car, and yes, you an get along way towards funding college. That's $35K to save. Start that when kid is little and do it with the next car in 8 years, instead of 5 years in between new cars and that's another $35-40K. If both parents do this, that's well over $100K to put towards college. From changing what car you drive---not to mention the insurance will be lower on a $25K vehicle, as well as maintenance. While it will not fully fund college, not driving an BMW will go a LONG WAY towards helping fund college. All for just swapping to a safe reliable decent vehicle instead of luxury. $25-30K will get you a very nice CRV/Accord type vehicle and those will last for 10+ years without many issues. But sure, go ahead buy your $50-60K BMW and complain you can't afford stuff.

And yes, I know people who spend $100/week at Starbucks, add up the family (2 adults and 2-3 kids) and it might be $150/week. That's $600/month. So add that to your $100K+ from car changes and you are saving $6 K more per year (I'll give you the extra $1k as treats/cost of making coffee/drinks at home).

So while you think it's ridiculous, I think the fact people spend $7K+ a year at Starbucks and complain they can't afford college to be ridiculous. Because they have plenty of things to be more frugal with and still live well and have the ability to save.

When I grew up poor/LMC, we ate out 1-2x/month and all other meals were at home. I packed my lunch for school for 12 years, I didn't get to stop at Starbucks (or the 1980's equivalents) with my friends as I did NOT have the money. We did not have cable, my parents got their first color TV in 1995. I had a "car to drive". It came with the privilege of knowing if it was cold morning, the heat/defrost might not work so I would have to pull over 2-3 times on the 6 mile drive to school to scrap my windshield so I could safely see/drive. Also knew how to have friends help me "push the same car" so I could pop the clutch and get it started many times since calling someone to do jump start cost $$.

Yet somehow, my parents still managed to find $5K (about 13% of their pretax income) to contribute towards my college each year and also pay for my books and airfare 2x/school year (to school in Aug, home/back for xmas and back again in May)So overall they managed to come up with ~$7-8K when they made less than $50K. They worked 2nd jobs and lived as frugally as possible and I contributed another $4-5K plus work study and loans each year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because $25K+ a year for tuition room and board is an awful lot of money even for families that make a good living. Especially if you have multiple kids.

$25 K a year is a bargain. Our family's net contribution is around $38,000 a year. Per kid. (2 kids). We make around $250,000 as a household.

Because they are assuming you have taken $20-30K per year of that $250K and invested it for college over the last decade. And that you can still be using that $20-30K/year towards college costs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Poor people do not have more options. Most truly poor people are not in the college pipeline.

Additionally, if those "donut hole" families lived like the poor people, rented where they rent, shopped where they shop, etc., they'd have tons of options too. Just saying.

+1

I get that some have special circumstances--medical debt or something unforeseen. But most donut hole families that I know made choices to spend elsewhere. New iPhone every year, 2 Starbucks trips per day, eating lunch out daily, eating half of dinners out, taking really nice vacations, new cars every 3-4 years, etc. Yes those are all "small things" in the grand scheme of savings, but that is just what is visible to me---I'm sure there is much more I don't even see. Someone with a mindset like that is choosing to spend on things when they could choose to save.
We knew our kids would get no aid, so we started saving as soon as they were born. We didn't start living a luxury lifestyle until we could afford it. We paid only 50% of what we could easily afford for our first house and lived there for 7 years. Sure we could afford a newer/nicer home, but we did not need it, this house had 4 bedrooms and 2.5 baths so enough space for a young family---it was relatively speaking much nicer than the apartment we came from. So we lived nicely but not luxuriously and saved the extras. We drove cars for 8-10 years and saved to pay cash for the next ones.
We also choose to not have kids until 30, so that allowed us to consciously save the extra salary and live off of basically one. We aggressively paid off all student loans, invested in our retirement. Other than our honeymoon, I was 35 before I took a "fancy vacation", yet we could have easily afforded to do so at 25/26. But that restraint allowed us to front load saving for college and then we could change our lifestyle as desired.

Same here. Our children can go almost anywhere, but only because we got started saving early and let the savings compound. We never made more than $120K either, but we've always banked at least one income. The irony is that we can now afford to live on one modest income and maintain our lifestyle. Plus, since most of our money is tucked away in retirement accounts and our house is paid off, our EFC is pretty low.

I always think about our situation when people on this board talk about not getting married until you are much older. It's a choice, but you don't get to set your family up nearly as well as if you partnered up earlier in life. However, there is nothing wrong with state schools and lower ranked colleges either.

Exactly. It's all about choices. And of course, nothing wrong with any college. Pick what works for your family, pick what's affordable. But if you choose to have kids before you have paid off your own college debt, it will be harder to save for college and that choice will impact your kid's college choices, just a simple fact of life. Life is about choices, and you get to live with the consequences of your choices as a responsible adult

Right, and if you don't have many or any choices, you are irresponsible. The fact that college costs have far outpaced inflation for decades - increasing by almost 144% in two decades - isn't relevant.

Right?

Obviously that is an issue. And we should work to address that, but given that majority of colleges are private not much can/will be done. However, there ARE affordable options to get an education and that’s the goal. So if you can’t afford on choice search for what you can afford. Not everything in life is fair, but majority of people can afford to get a college degree—just not at a top U for some

The only real affordable options out there for the AVERAGE American (not the "feel poor" DCUMers making $300k per year) is community college or commuting to a state university. Look up average HHIs around the country and tell me how these people are supposed to sock away hundreds of dollars per month for their kid to live on campus at even a state university? And then do that for multiple kids. It's just not reality for most. I'm not saying these are bad options but lets not pretend they're not limited.

I will never cease to be shocked by the clueless posters on here who think people could fully fund college if only they never got Starbucks, got rid of cable, or stop driving BMWs.

Stoping starbucks is not going to fully fund college for you. But The mentality of being frugal will go a long way. And buy a $25K car instead of a $60K car, and yes, you an get along way towards funding college. That's $35K to save. Start that when kid is little and do it with the next car in 8 years, instead of 5 years in between new cars and that's another $35-40K. If both parents do this, that's well over $100K to put towards college. From changing what car you drive---not to mention the insurance will be lower on a $25K vehicle, as well as maintenance. While it will not fully fund college, not driving an BMW will go a LONG WAY towards helping fund college. All for just swapping to a safe reliable decent vehicle instead of luxury. $25-30K will get you a very nice CRV/Accord type vehicle and those will last for 10+ years without many issues. But sure, go ahead buy your $50-60K BMW and complain you can't afford stuff.

And yes, I know people who spend $100/week at Starbucks, add up the family (2 adults and 2-3 kids) and it might be $150/week. That's $600/month. So add that to your $100K+ from car changes and you are saving $6 K more per year (I'll give you the extra $1k as treats/cost of making coffee/drinks at home).

So while you think it's ridiculous, I think the fact people spend $7K+ a year at Starbucks and complain they can't afford college to be ridiculous. Because they have plenty of things to be more frugal with and still live well and have the ability to save.

When I grew up poor/LMC, we ate out 1-2x/month and all other meals were at home. I packed my lunch for school for 12 years, I didn't get to stop at Starbucks (or the 1980's equivalents) with my friends as I did NOT have the money. We did not have cable, my parents got their first color TV in 1995. I had a "car to drive". It came with the privilege of knowing if it was cold morning, the heat/defrost might not work so I would have to pull over 2-3 times on the 6 mile drive to school to scrap my windshield so I could safely see/drive. Also knew how to have friends help me "push the same car" so I could pop the clutch and get it started many times since calling someone to do jump start cost $$.

Yet somehow, my parents still managed to find $5K (about 13% of their pretax income) to contribute towards my college each year and also pay for my books and airfare 2x/school year (to school in Aug, home/back for xmas and back again in May)So overall they managed to come up with ~$7-8K when they made less than $50K. They worked 2nd jobs and lived as frugally as possible and I contributed another $4-5K plus work study and loans each year.

Honestly THIS. Spending all the money on ‘I gotta have it’ items like sbux, hair and nails, a newer car, upgrading the house, a splurge vacation, all of that easily adds up to 15K per year. If it were invested for even 10 years, with compound interest that’s enough for private school. Rinse repeat for kid number 2.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Poor people do not have more options. Most truly poor people are not in the college pipeline.

Additionally, if those "donut hole" families lived like the poor people, rented where they rent, shopped where they shop, etc., they'd have tons of options too. Just saying.

+1

I get that some have special circumstances--medical debt or something unforeseen. But most donut hole families that I know made choices to spend elsewhere. New iPhone every year, 2 Starbucks trips per day, eating lunch out daily, eating half of dinners out, taking really nice vacations, new cars every 3-4 years, etc. Yes those are all "small things" in the grand scheme of savings, but that is just what is visible to me---I'm sure there is much more I don't even see. Someone with a mindset like that is choosing to spend on things when they could choose to save.
We knew our kids would get no aid, so we started saving as soon as they were born. We didn't start living a luxury lifestyle until we could afford it. We paid only 50% of what we could easily afford for our first house and lived there for 7 years. Sure we could afford a newer/nicer home, but we did not need it, this house had 4 bedrooms and 2.5 baths so enough space for a young family---it was relatively speaking much nicer than the apartment we came from. So we lived nicely but not luxuriously and saved the extras. We drove cars for 8-10 years and saved to pay cash for the next ones.
We also choose to not have kids until 30, so that allowed us to consciously save the extra salary and live off of basically one. We aggressively paid off all student loans, invested in our retirement. Other than our honeymoon, I was 35 before I took a "fancy vacation", yet we could have easily afforded to do so at 25/26. But that restraint allowed us to front load saving for college and then we could change our lifestyle as desired.

Same here. Our children can go almost anywhere, but only because we got started saving early and let the savings compound. We never made more than $120K either, but we've always banked at least one income. The irony is that we can now afford to live on one modest income and maintain our lifestyle. Plus, since most of our money is tucked away in retirement accounts and our house is paid off, our EFC is pretty low.

I always think about our situation when people on this board talk about not getting married until you are much older. It's a choice, but you don't get to set your family up nearly as well as if you partnered up earlier in life. However, there is nothing wrong with state schools and lower ranked colleges either.

Exactly. It's all about choices. And of course, nothing wrong with any college. Pick what works for your family, pick what's affordable. But if you choose to have kids before you have paid off your own college debt, it will be harder to save for college and that choice will impact your kid's college choices, just a simple fact of life. Life is about choices, and you get to live with the consequences of your choices as a responsible adult

Right, and if you don't have many or any choices, you are irresponsible. The fact that college costs have far outpaced inflation for decades - increasing by almost 144% in two decades - isn't relevant.

Right?

Obviously that is an issue. And we should work to address that, but given that majority of colleges are private not much can/will be done. However, there ARE affordable options to get an education and that’s the goal. So if you can’t afford on choice search for what you can afford. Not everything in life is fair, but majority of people can afford to get a college degree—just not at a top U for some

The only real affordable options out there for the AVERAGE American (not the "feel poor" DCUMers making $300k per year) is community college or commuting to a state university. Look up average HHIs around the country and tell me how these people are supposed to sock away hundreds of dollars per month for their kid to live on campus at even a state university? And then do that for multiple kids. It's just not reality for most. I'm not saying these are bad options but lets not pretend they're not limited.

I will never cease to be shocked by the clueless posters on here who think people could fully fund college if only they never got Starbucks, got rid of cable, or stop driving BMWs.

Stoping starbucks is not going to fully fund college for you. But The mentality of being frugal will go a long way. And buy a $25K car instead of a $60K car, and yes, you an get along way towards funding college. That's $35K to save. Start that when kid is little and do it with the next car in 8 years, instead of 5 years in between new cars and that's another $35-40K. If both parents do this, that's well over $100K to put towards college. From changing what car you drive---not to mention the insurance will be lower on a $25K vehicle, as well as maintenance. While it will not fully fund college, not driving an BMW will go a LONG WAY towards helping fund college. All for just swapping to a safe reliable decent vehicle instead of luxury. $25-30K will get you a very nice CRV/Accord type vehicle and those will last for 10+ years without many issues. But sure, go ahead buy your $50-60K BMW and complain you can't afford stuff.

And yes, I know people who spend $100/week at Starbucks, add up the family (2 adults and 2-3 kids) and it might be $150/week. That's $600/month. So add that to your $100K+ from car changes and you are saving $6 K more per year (I'll give you the extra $1k as treats/cost of making coffee/drinks at home).

So while you think it's ridiculous, I think the fact people spend $7K+ a year at Starbucks and complain they can't afford college to be ridiculous. Because they have plenty of things to be more frugal with and still live well and have the ability to save.

When I grew up poor/LMC, we ate out 1-2x/month and all other meals were at home. I packed my lunch for school for 12 years, I didn't get to stop at Starbucks (or the 1980's equivalents) with my friends as I did NOT have the money. We did not have cable, my parents got their first color TV in 1995. I had a "car to drive". It came with the privilege of knowing if it was cold morning, the heat/defrost might not work so I would have to pull over 2-3 times on the 6 mile drive to school to scrap my windshield so I could safely see/drive. Also knew how to have friends help me "push the same car" so I could pop the clutch and get it started many times since calling someone to do jump start cost $$.

Yet somehow, my parents still managed to find $5K (about 13% of their pretax income) to contribute towards my college each year and also pay for my books and airfare 2x/school year (to school in Aug, home/back for xmas and back again in May)So overall they managed to come up with ~$7-8K when they made less than $50K. They worked 2nd jobs and lived as frugally as possible and I contributed another $4-5K plus work study and loans each year.

Honestly THIS. Spending all the money on ‘I gotta have it’ items like sbux, hair and nails, a newer car, upgrading the house, a splurge vacation, all of that easily adds up to 15K per year. If it were invested for even 10 years, with compound interest that’s enough for private school. Rinse repeat for kid number 2.

Right! When most of us mention "spending at Starbucks" we are talking about people that actually have extra income to save. I'm not referring to the person already driving a 10yo Honda Accord who may not be able to save. I have empathy for them. But if they are also spending $100/month on Starbucks (a want not a Need), then yes, they could be saving that for college as well. It's a choice they are making and choices have consequences.

Yes college costs too much. But there are ways to do it affordably for most, it just may not be the Elite T20 schools.

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Anonymous wrote:Poor people do not have more options. Most truly poor people are not in the college pipeline.

Additionally, if those "donut hole" families lived like the poor people, rented where they rent, shopped where they shop, etc., they'd have tons of options too. Just saying.

+1

I get that some have special circumstances--medical debt or something unforeseen. But most donut hole families that I know made choices to spend elsewhere. New iPhone every year, 2 Starbucks trips per day, eating lunch out daily, eating half of dinners out, taking really nice vacations, new cars every 3-4 years, etc. Yes those are all "small things" in the grand scheme of savings, but that is just what is visible to me---I'm sure there is much more I don't even see. Someone with a mindset like that is choosing to spend on things when they could choose to save.
We knew our kids would get no aid, so we started saving as soon as they were born. We didn't start living a luxury lifestyle until we could afford it. We paid only 50% of what we could easily afford for our first house and lived there for 7 years. Sure we could afford a newer/nicer home, but we did not need it, this house had 4 bedrooms and 2.5 baths so enough space for a young family---it was relatively speaking much nicer than the apartment we came from. So we lived nicely but not luxuriously and saved the extras. We drove cars for 8-10 years and saved to pay cash for the next ones.
We also choose to not have kids until 30, so that allowed us to consciously save the extra salary and live off of basically one. We aggressively paid off all student loans, invested in our retirement. Other than our honeymoon, I was 35 before I took a "fancy vacation", yet we could have easily afforded to do so at 25/26. But that restraint allowed us to front load saving for college and then we could change our lifestyle as desired.

Same here. Our children can go almost anywhere, but only because we got started saving early and let the savings compound. We never made more than $120K either, but we've always banked at least one income. The irony is that we can now afford to live on one modest income and maintain our lifestyle. Plus, since most of our money is tucked away in retirement accounts and our house is paid off, our EFC is pretty low.

I always think about our situation when people on this board talk about not getting married until you are much older. It's a choice, but you don't get to set your family up nearly as well as if you partnered up earlier in life. However, there is nothing wrong with state schools and lower ranked colleges either.

Exactly. It's all about choices. And of course, nothing wrong with any college. Pick what works for your family, pick what's affordable. But if you choose to have kids before you have paid off your own college debt, it will be harder to save for college and that choice will impact your kid's college choices, just a simple fact of life. Life is about choices, and you get to live with the consequences of your choices as a responsible adult

Right, and if you don't have many or any choices, you are irresponsible. The fact that college costs have far outpaced inflation for decades - increasing by almost 144% in two decades - isn't relevant.

Right?

Obviously that is an issue. And we should work to address that, but given that majority of colleges are private not much can/will be done. However, there ARE affordable options to get an education and that’s the goal. So if you can’t afford on choice search for what you can afford. Not everything in life is fair, but majority of people can afford to get a college degree—just not at a top U for some

The only real affordable options out there for the AVERAGE American (not the "feel poor" DCUMers making $300k per year) is community college or commuting to a state university. Look up average HHIs around the country and tell me how these people are supposed to sock away hundreds of dollars per month for their kid to live on campus at even a state university? And then do that for multiple kids. It's just not reality for most. I'm not saying these are bad options but lets not pretend they're not limited.

I will never cease to be shocked by the clueless posters on here who think people could fully fund college if only they never got Starbucks, got rid of cable, or stop driving BMWs.

The affordable options are the schools that meet full need through only grants. There is a reason there there is so much pressure and competition to get into those schools

There are 21 schools, out of more than 3K that do this for middle income families.

And, to be clear, they are offering a package that allows a family who feels they can afford their EFC to send their kid with no loans. Almost no one's EFC feels affordable. If someone is claiming to be a "donut hole" family, it's because their EFC does not feel affordable to them, and they feel that it requires loans to pay. I don't know why someone who believes their EFC gave them a number that is too hard to pay, believes that all the people with lower incomes than them have EFC's they can pay.

Anyway, here's the list. Other than Berea and Ozarks, all of those schools are highly rejective. Any student who gets into one of those will also have other strong options that give merit. The idea that someone who gets into a school on that list, and decides they can't afford it, won't get merit without going to Frostburg, is absurd. Those kids will have options.

Amherst College
Berea College
Bowdoin College
Brown University
Colby College
College of the Ozarks
Columbia University
Davidson College
Grinnell College
Harvard University
Johns Hopkins University
Northwestern University
Pomona College
Princeton University
Stanford University
Swarthmore College
University of Chicago
University of Pennsylvania
Vanderbilt University
Washington and Lee University
Yale University

On paper. Good luck getting any $ if you make $150k. Ain’t happening no matter what they advertise.