RANT: Teachers, why are you so whiny?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The only teachers I know who work 40hrs a week are no longer teachers. I feel great if I work 50 hrs a week but it is usually more like 55 hrs. Some people like the PPs think that teaching is easy and all of us are just doing it wrong. They end up quitting when they realize it is MUCH more difficult than they imagined. I write lesson plans for my week on Sunday mornings. It takes 5-6 hrs and then I prep the materials early Monday morning. I usually grade on Friday night. Many of my planning periods are used up in meetings and meetings about meetings. I am usually physically exhausted by the end of most days. Teaching little kids isn’t easy on the back. I love teaching but the rest of it is too much. The MIA parents, the testing, the ridiculous admin, etc. I used to work on a law firm and it was cake compared to this gig.

What grade do you teach?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only teachers I know who work 40hrs a week are no longer teachers. I feel great if I work 50 hrs a week but it is usually more like 55 hrs. Some people like the PPs think that teaching is easy and all of us are just doing it wrong. They end up quitting when they realize it is MUCH more difficult than they imagined. I write lesson plans for my week on Sunday mornings. It takes 5-6 hrs and then I prep the materials early Monday morning. I usually grade on Friday night. Many of my planning periods are used up in meetings and meetings about meetings. I am usually physically exhausted by the end of most days. Teaching little kids isn’t easy on the back. I love teaching but the rest of it is too much. The MIA parents, the testing, the ridiculous admin, etc. I used to work on a law firm and it was cake compared to this gig.

What grade do you teach?

K-2 ESOL

[Anonymous]

I am not a teacher, but contrary to one of the PP’s, I believe teaching is a professional career. I don’t think you, Mr/Ms Lawyer, are any more important than teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Skip to links below if you want to read research on this issue. Continue if you want my personal perspective as an attorney who is from a family of elementary and high school teachers.

YES. Thank you. Teachers are striking here in Denver now, carrying ridiculous signs and complaining about pay. The complaint that really gets me is the assertion that most teachers spend their evenings, weekends, vacations, and summers grueling over grades and lesson plans. That claim is simply disingenuous for anyone other than the newest, most obsessively dedicated, or poorly time-managed teachers. My brother is a teacher, lives frugally, and spends his vacations and summers traveling until in-service a few days before classes start. My sister is a teacher and is married to another teacher. Between the two of them, they do quite well and seem to enjoy their fall, winter, spring, and summer breaks just fine. YES, teachers have a tough job dealing with unruly kids and parents. YES, they have to take work home from time to time. But guess what, so do the rest of us, and we do it 50 weeks a year. I am an attorney who works in litigation, so the "stress" of having to spend an evening at a school sporting event (as opposed to hunched over a computer finalizing a brief at 10pm) just isn't all that convincing. And don't get me started about all the hours spent working outside the office. Moreover, when you look at my per hour pay it is not much different than a high school teacher with equal years experience (controlled for 9mo vs 12mo work-year), and I don't have nearly as good of a pension. Fact is, $50K for 9mos work in a profession that requires a bachelors or masters (in education - not organic chemistry, law, medicine, or computer science) is a pretty good gig.

http://www.aei.org/publication/no-teachers-are-not-underpaid/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2014/08/07/low-teacher-pay-and-high-teacher-pay-are-both-myths/#1dca873631af

The funny thing is is once they put in subs and administrative staff in the Denver public schools and everything turned into chaos. Teaching is so easy ! Except so many people are pousy at doing it

If you are a trial attorney, how many hours are you actually standing up and presenting your case? Because I hear all the time that the only thing I do that counts as work is when I am actually teaching. Reading documents (e.g. grading) doesn’t count, talking to key people (e.g. parent teacher conferences or deposing witnesses) doesn’t count, supervising (e.g. school events or opposing arguments) don’t count.

So how many hours? I spend about 765 hours a week standing up presenting. What are your hours?

The actual trial is a very small part of litigating. The vast majority of the hours are researching the claims and arguments, drafting and filing pleadings/briefs, engaging in discovery (written questions to opposing counsel, depositions, document reviews) and responding to the other side. Document review, depending on the case, can take weeks and weeks and require a ton of OT. Then there is the preparation of your questions for the other side's witnesses, opening/closing statement, both of which involve moot courts before colleagues (at least where I've worked), and planning out your presentation/strategy. Finally, there are the mediations, status updates, etc. before the court or magistrates.

When I did this as a first year associate in a small firm (so I was VERY much doing all of this work, whether or not I should have been), I did all of it for about $45,000 / year. So far less than most teachers in this area and for much more work. I also had no benefits other than a small amount of paid leave and health care. I was not there for more than a year before getting a much better job with better benefits/pay. But, still worked a lot and made less than teachers in this area for several years.

So, this is not your strongest argument.

I could have gotten a job with bigger firms for more pay but it was just not my scene. I was not meant to be in that environment so I opted for small (and nonprofit/govt work). I knew I'd be paid less for a lot of work but I'd be happier in the long run. You know this as well about teaching.

Whoosh.

I don't see how that's a "whoosh" situation.

Because the point is that the actual part of standing up and teaching is a small part of what I do.

You research to craft your arguments, and I research the curriculum I'm expected to teach.

You plan and organize what you're going to say, and practice in moot court. I plan and organize my lessons.

You gather data by deposing witnesses. I gather data by meeting with parents, and related service providers.

You review tons of documents. So, do I. I also grade the documents I review.

You mediate, and I do too, in I.E.P. meetings.

You draft and file complaints. I draft and file IEP's, and field trip permission forms, and all sorts of other forms.

When someone says "Teachers only work 5 hours a day 9 months a year" it makes as much sense as someone saying "Ms. Lawyer only worked 2 hours yesterday. The rest of the time she was just reading stuff, or listening to people talk.".

And my point is, LOTS of professionals do that. They get judged for any sorts of things. And they get underpaid for doing it. Teachers, lawyers (non BIGLAW), social workers, etc.

But YOU KNOW THAT when you take the job. And, what's more, you get excellent benefits and lots of time off. So, that is why you're perceived as whiny.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not a teacher, but contrary to one of the PP’s, I believe teaching is a professional career. I don’t think you, Mr/Ms Lawyer, are any more important than teachers.

There has not been on person that I've seen on this thread that said some other career is more important than teaching. That's you being defensive.

I'm one of the lawyers that posted here. And to the contrary, teachers have a FAR more important job than I do. Their underpaid and undervalued. BUT they are quite aware of this when they go down the teacher track. And many of them make quite a bit more than other professions that work equal to or more hours and are paid less (e.g., a friend is a journalist -and editor- and her sister is a teacher. The teacher makes FAR more and has more time off. And works less.) So change careers. Tune it out. Lobby for change. But, quit your bitching.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Skip to links below if you want to read research on this issue. Continue if you want my personal perspective as an attorney who is from a family of elementary and high school teachers.

YES. Thank you. Teachers are striking here in Denver now, carrying ridiculous signs and complaining about pay. The complaint that really gets me is the assertion that most teachers spend their evenings, weekends, vacations, and summers grueling over grades and lesson plans. That claim is simply disingenuous for anyone other than the newest, most obsessively dedicated, or poorly time-managed teachers. My brother is a teacher, lives frugally, and spends his vacations and summers traveling until in-service a few days before classes start. My sister is a teacher and is married to another teacher. Between the two of them, they do quite well and seem to enjoy their fall, winter, spring, and summer breaks just fine. YES, teachers have a tough job dealing with unruly kids and parents. YES, they have to take work home from time to time. But guess what, so do the rest of us, and we do it 50 weeks a year. I am an attorney who works in litigation, so the "stress" of having to spend an evening at a school sporting event (as opposed to hunched over a computer finalizing a brief at 10pm) just isn't all that convincing. And don't get me started about all the hours spent working outside the office. Moreover, when you look at my per hour pay it is not much different than a high school teacher with equal years experience (controlled for 9mo vs 12mo work-year), and I don't have nearly as good of a pension. Fact is, $50K for 9mos work in a profession that requires a bachelors or masters (in education - not organic chemistry, law, medicine, or computer science) is a pretty good gig.

http://www.aei.org/publication/no-teachers-are-not-underpaid/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2014/08/07/low-teacher-pay-and-high-teacher-pay-are-both-myths/#1dca873631af

The funny thing is is once they put in subs and administrative staff in the Denver public schools and everything turned into chaos. Teaching is so easy ! Except so many people are pousy at doing it

If you are a trial attorney, how many hours are you actually standing up and presenting your case? Because I hear all the time that the only thing I do that counts as work is when I am actually teaching. Reading documents (e.g. grading) doesn’t count, talking to key people (e.g. parent teacher conferences or deposing witnesses) doesn’t count, supervising (e.g. school events or opposing arguments) don’t count.

So how many hours? I spend about 765 hours a week standing up presenting. What are your hours?

The actual trial is a very small part of litigating. The vast majority of the hours are researching the claims and arguments, drafting and filing pleadings/briefs, engaging in discovery (written questions to opposing counsel, depositions, document reviews) and responding to the other side. Document review, depending on the case, can take weeks and weeks and require a ton of OT. Then there is the preparation of your questions for the other side's witnesses, opening/closing statement, both of which involve moot courts before colleagues (at least where I've worked), and planning out your presentation/strategy. Finally, there are the mediations, status updates, etc. before the court or magistrates.

When I did this as a first year associate in a small firm (so I was VERY much doing all of this work, whether or not I should have been), I did all of it for about $45,000 / year. So far less than most teachers in this area and for much more work. I also had no benefits other than a small amount of paid leave and health care. I was not there for more than a year before getting a much better job with better benefits/pay. But, still worked a lot and made less than teachers in this area for several years.

So, this is not your strongest argument.

I could have gotten a job with bigger firms for more pay but it was just not my scene. I was not meant to be in that environment so I opted for small (and nonprofit/govt work). I knew I'd be paid less for a lot of work but I'd be happier in the long run. You know this as well about teaching.

Whoosh.

I don't see how that's a "whoosh" situation.

Because the point is that the actual part of standing up and teaching is a small part of what I do.

You research to craft your arguments, and I research the curriculum I'm expected to teach.

You plan and organize what you're going to say, and practice in moot court. I plan and organize my lessons.

You gather data by deposing witnesses. I gather data by meeting with parents, and related service providers.

You review tons of documents. So, do I. I also grade the documents I review.

You mediate, and I do too, in I.E.P. meetings.

You draft and file complaints. I draft and file IEP's, and field trip permission forms, and all sorts of other forms.

When someone says "Teachers only work 5 hours a day 9 months a year" it makes as much sense as someone saying "Ms. Lawyer only worked 2 hours yesterday. The rest of the time she was just reading stuff, or listening to people talk.".

And my point is, LOTS of professionals do that. They get judged for any sorts of things. And they get underpaid for doing it. Teachers, lawyers (non BIGLAW), social workers, etc.

But YOU KNOW THAT when you take the job. And, what's more, you get excellent benefits and lots of time off. So, that is why you're perceived as whiny.

And yes, I see the typos.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not a teacher, but contrary to one of the PP’s, I believe teaching is a professional career. I don’t think you, Mr/Ms Lawyer, are any more important than teachers.

Agree. Though I do find this lawyer super annoying. I’m not a teacher but I’d rather hang out with any of these so-called whiny teachers than this insufferable lawyer poster.

[Anonymous]

This is like the greatest post in the world! And don’t forget teachers are on the same vacation schedule as children LOL. !!!I told a friend of mine who’s a teacher that they were going to start working 12 months out of the year like full-time employees. She said if that happens she would quit her job. LOL. it is so true about it’s not rocket science to get a teaching degree. I love to read teachers Facebook posts with horrible grammar, poor sentence structure, and misspelled words and always in a rant over how hard they work. One idiot had the nerve to compare how hard she worked to a firefighter. I can tell you from experience and years of it that teachers clear that parking lot after school Every day before 4:00 PM. But boy if you confront them about it they go ballistic. And yes they blame parents for everything. My favorite is when I used to have to go in the classrooms to pull children for testing and the teacher would be on their cell phone almost 99% of the time. Why can’t you just admit they’re kind of lazy, they do a really poor job of teaching children. And it’s evident by the fact that most kids graduate from high school with poor math skills poor reading skills. Colleges are now forced to offer remedial classes to get them caught up. Oh in that thing about they bring work home. If they would stay and work till 5:30 PM like professionals and not spend their planning period Gossiping they wouldn’t have to bring Work home. Signed ; a former principal and physical therapist.
I can’t wait to hear all the whiny lazy teachers get hot under the collar and real pissy. Lol?

[Anonymous]

What a coincidence that this gets revived on Teacher Appreciation Day. Someone’s mad they didn’t get a $5 Starbucks card for Federal Worker Appreciation Fay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is like the greatest post in the world! And don’t forget teachers are on the same vacation schedule as children LOL. !!!I told a friend of mine who’s a teacher that they were going to start working 12 months out of the year like full-time employees. She said if that happens she would quit her job. LOL. it is so true about it’s not rocket science to get a teaching degree. I love to read teachers Facebook posts with horrible grammar, poor sentence structure, and misspelled words and always in a rant over how hard they work. One idiot had the nerve to compare how hard she worked to a firefighter. I can tell you from experience and years of it that teachers clear that parking lot after school Every day before 4:00 PM. But boy if you confront them about it they go ballistic. And yes they blame parents for everything. My favorite is when I used to have to go in the classrooms to pull children for testing and the teacher would be on their cell phone almost 99% of the time. Why can’t you just admit they’re kind of lazy, they do a really poor job of teaching children. And it’s evident by the fact that most kids graduate from high school with poor math skills poor reading skills. Colleges are now forced to offer remedial classes to get them caught up. Oh in that thing about they bring work home. If they would stay and work till 5:30 PM like professionals and not spend their planning period Gossiping they wouldn’t have to bring Work home. Signed ; a former principal and physical therapist.
I can’t wait to hear all the whiny lazy teachers get hot under the collar and real pissy. Lol?

Your work stands for itself.

[Anonymous]

The person who spends HOURS preparing lesson plans on the weekend? What the hell do you do with your lesson plans from the years prior? Sweetie it’s not rocket science. My sister homeschooled her 11 children. 8 of those 11 children have graduated from college and post graduate programs. Two are dentists, one is In his third year as a resident in cardiac surgery, one physical therapist, one is a speech pathologist, One is in law school ,
To are officers in the military. The other three are still in college. Would you like my sister to help you with your lesson plans? Lol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The person who spends HOURS preparing lesson plans on the weekend? What the hell do you do with your lesson plans from the years prior? Sweetie it’s not rocket science. My sister homeschooled her 11 children. 8 of those 11 children have graduated from college and post graduate programs. Two are dentists, one is In his third year as a resident in cardiac surgery, one physical therapist, one is a speech pathologist, One is in law school ,
To are officers in the military. The other three are still in college. Would you like my sister to help you with your lesson plans? Lol

Breathe. Have a glass of wine. Maybe f*ck your DH. Teacher Appreciate Week will be over soon and you won’t be so triggered.

[Anonymous]

teachers are the worst.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is like the greatest post in the world! And don’t forget teachers are on the same vacation schedule as children LOL. !!!I told a friend of mine who’s a teacher that they were going to start working 12 months out of the year like full-time employees. She said if that happens she would quit her job. LOL. it is so true about it’s not rocket science to get a teaching degree. I love to read teachers Facebook posts with horrible grammar, poor sentence structure, and misspelled words and always in a rant over how hard they work. One idiot had the nerve to compare how hard she worked to a firefighter. I can tell you from experience and years of it that teachers clear that parking lot after school Every day before 4:00 PM. But boy if you confront them about it they go ballistic. And yes they blame parents for everything. My favorite is when I used to have to go in the classrooms to pull children for testing and the teacher would be on their cell phone almost 99% of the time. Why can’t you just admit they’re kind of lazy, they do a really poor job of teaching children. And it’s evident by the fact that most kids graduate from high school with poor math skills poor reading skills. Colleges are now forced to offer remedial classes to get them caught up. Oh in that thing about they bring work home. If they would stay and work till 5:30 PM like professionals and not spend their planning period Gossiping they wouldn’t have to bring Work home. Signed ; a former principal and physical therapist.
I can’t wait to hear all the whiny lazy teachers get hot under the collar and real pissy. Lol?

“Poor grammar”? This is the pot calling the kettle black.

You’re a former principal? If that’s true you are an embarrassment to principals, but you do admit that is a formal position so that could be telling.

I call “troll post”, evidenced by the part in bold.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The person who spends HOURS preparing lesson plans on the weekend? What the hell do you do with your lesson plans from the years prior? Sweetie it’s not rocket science. My sister homeschooled her 11 children. 8 of those 11 children have graduated from college and post graduate programs. Two are dentists, one is In his third year as a resident in cardiac surgery, one physical therapist, one is a speech pathologist, One is in law school ,
To are officers in the military. The other three are still in college. Would you like my sister to help you with your lesson plans? Lol

Not the PP, but do you realize that not all children are the same? Do you realize that teachers adapt lessons (small group reading, focus lessons, math workshops, etc.) based on the needs of the students? Not all students are working on the same thing at the same time. How long has it been since you have spent an extended amount of time in an elementary school classroom?

My guess is, if in a different thread a teacher said she/he simply went with last year’s lesson plans you would say that teacher was being lazy.

“Sweetie”? Condescending much?