Just how prevalent is this oxy addiction thing among our young adults in top privates?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

Well, that's good, I guess.

Right, like who among did not make what in retrospect were some really bad choices when we were teens and in college? There really is nothing that happened during that period about which you do not say to yourself, "What was I thinking?" Making bad choices and then realizing the consequences you lacked foresight to see when you made them is actually part of becoming an adult. Too bad that when it's oxy it can have such devastating consequences.

Actually, (I'm the PP you are responding to) this is the sort of discussion we should be having - yes, kids make BAD decisions sometimes and it is up to us to help them avoid these mistakes. Is it something parents can control 100%? Obviously not and obviously this is a distressing thing for us parents. But making up self-serving lies about how it's not your kids' fault or infantilizing them to the point of comparing to toddlers and wall sockets are just tricks you do to make yourself feel better. Face it, teenagers have to seek out dealers and opportunities to use - they are making an effort to get high. No one is holding them down and shoving a needle into their arms.

So what's your next step? The REAL meaning behind your statement is that you want parents to excoriate their own children as worthless addicts. What do you think this kind of punitive orientation is going to help with, exactly? Personally I don't care how a parent explains their child's situation to themselves, as long as they support their child in getting treatment. Why is it SO important to you that parents make a confession of their/their children's moral failing? Again NOBODY DISPUTES that addicts make a conscious choice to use drugs. We know that. You're caught up in the starting point that everyone has moved past ... and this says volumes more about you than the issues.

Your personal insults and defensiveness says way more about you than me.

You don't think acknowledging realities behind addiction - especially when talking about the personal choices involved - is helpful to overcoming the problem? Instead you'll want to shout everyone else down - blame the government, blame the schools, anything but your kid's poor decision making (and what this really means is blaming yourself)? You think this is helpful instead? Go right ahead. I'm sure your denial and inability to deal with problems head on had nothing to do with your kid getting involved with drugs.

Whoa! Where did PP say she was blaming government or schools? She is just saying trying to ascribe blame is unhelpful and does nothing to address how parents should help an addict child.

You haven't read the whole thread then.

It's mind boggling that something as simple as acknowledging personal responsibility when you go out, buy drugs, and stick these said drugs into yourself for fun is something so vehemently rejected.

You people are unbelievable.

it's mindboggling that you can't accept that NOBODY HAS ARGUED THERE IS NO PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY involved. I'm just saying that that's not the end of the story in terms of preventing and treating addiction.

1. People have argued/implied that kids do not bear personal responsibility. Read the thread.

2. No one said accepting personal responsibility in some cases of addiction was the end story in terms of prevention or treatment. But I will argue that it is a crucial element.

1. No, nobody has said that. They've pointed to other factors that interacted with the child's choice. Can you accept that there are other societal/biological factors that lead to addiction? What really happened is that you lost your sh*t when someone started explaining the actual rule of a prescription of oxy in their child's addiction.
2. This isn't about your debate arguments about words, but rather about the actual science behind treating addiction. Which you know nothing about. The fact is that MOTIVATION matters a great deal in recovery. But the role motivation plays interacts extensively with socio-economic factors that impact the resources available to sustain recovery. And, it's very common for addicts to be ambivalent when they enter treatment (but recover anyway, give the right resources). Anyway, the bigger question is what the role of "accepting personal responsibility" entails. If you're the same poster as PP (don't know that you are) the personal responsibility angle means that society has no collective role in helping addicts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Acknowledging the personal choice/responsibility is actually crucial to stopping the drug use. You know, the whole "want to get clean" part. Obviously when the addict is a teen with parents determined to excuse (enable) him it's an additional barrier. People like you are pathetic and selfish. The whole "it's not the addicts' fault!" Is actually a self-serving defense mechanism designed to protect your feelings.

It is a dangerous myth that only those "who want to get clean" can get clean. It's right along there with you have to hit rock bottom before you can get clean. Addiction is most easily treated in its earlier phases. If you wait for people to want to get clean or hit bottom there are almost no options left that work well. Court mandated rehab attendees have just as much success as voluntary rehab attendees.

It's not a myth, but common knowledge among families of addicts and alcoholics that someone who does not want to get sober for themselves will not stay sober.

This is a recipe for families and everyone else to just throw up their hands and give up. This is what leads parents to throw their addicted kids out of the house and make them a public charge. Before definitely giving up and living it time no addict fully and unreservedly wants to be clean.

The trick is to make addiction uncomfortable enough so that the addict has at least some small part of his brain that wants to get clean. Court mandated addicts may not want to get clean, but they'd rather do rehab than prison time, so some small part of their brain wants to be clean once they process that choice. Instilling and exploiting just the smallest shadow of a penumbra of a feeling that going clean may vaguely be better than the alternative can result in recovery success.

Many, many people attend their first NA meeting with just the vaguest idea that clean may be a better way or to get someone in their life off their back. They are not turned back and no one in NA would tell them they cannot get clean unless they really want to get clean.

Parents who say this are trying to justify why, scores of thousands of dollars late, their child's third rehab failed.

So you agree with me that addicts have to *want* to get clean. Make a personal choice to get clean. Okay then.

Dude, this isn't some kind of high school gotcha debate. Obviously it takes personal effort to beat addiction. But your simplistic view that "it's a personal choice" isn't what this poster is talking about. Believe it or not, the role of motivation in recovery is something that actual experts actually study. And it is much more complicated than saying "it's a personal choice." It takes support from others, which takes tax dollars, which takes investment by society. Not just "personal choice."

Ah tax dollars. Yes.

You've got kids who are looking to get high, they use the wrong drug that happens to be really addictive, boom. Tax dollars please!

right well, thanks for clarifying your agenda, then. addiction = personal failing = just let them die.

Oh, you're one of those people who thinks other people should pay for your problems, and if they don't, they are horrible people? Awesome.

Yes, I do think you're a horrible person if you don't think that drug addicts should get help affording treatment. In fact, I do.

Good, we can start by emptying your bank account into the nearest rehab center, since you're such a morally superior person.

I'll gladly pay more taxes to support a single-payer healthcare system that includes drug treatment programs. Gladly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

Well, that's good, I guess.

Right, like who among did not make what in retrospect were some really bad choices when we were teens and in college? There really is nothing that happened during that period about which you do not say to yourself, "What was I thinking?" Making bad choices and then realizing the consequences you lacked foresight to see when you made them is actually part of becoming an adult. Too bad that when it's oxy it can have such devastating consequences.

Actually, (I'm the PP you are responding to) this is the sort of discussion we should be having - yes, kids make BAD decisions sometimes and it is up to us to help them avoid these mistakes. Is it something parents can control 100%? Obviously not and obviously this is a distressing thing for us parents. But making up self-serving lies about how it's not your kids' fault or infantilizing them to the point of comparing to toddlers and wall sockets are just tricks you do to make yourself feel better. Face it, teenagers have to seek out dealers and opportunities to use - they are making an effort to get high. No one is holding them down and shoving a needle into their arms.

Agree with this. I absolutely sympathize with parents of teenage addicts and don't necessarily think it is the parents' fault, per se (although in many cases, I do think the parents could and should have done more. But not all cases). I have NO problem with someone saying "My kid was a good kid who made a stupid decision, and the price he's paying feels much higher than it should be." I get that. But acting as if your child is innocent, blameless, and a victim - nope. Not doing anyone any favors, him especially

Straw man. I don't see any parent of an addicted child claiming their child was blameless. I do seem them correctly pointing out environmental contributors to the addiction (legal prescriptions, the highly addictive nature of the drug, actual brain-based differences that make some people more prone to addiction). But you moralists are so caught up in blaming that you can't stand to hear that sometimes even if people weak, they still deserve society's help. Parents must give JUST the right note of contrition before they're deserving of your concern. Nope. Not your business.

It is my business, actually, if they're going to try and convince me that their child's addiction is entirely a product of everything else EXCEPT their child's shortcoming or poor decision-making, because their child was a complete victim who had no control over the situation whatsoever. Go upthread and you will see exactly this.

Who made that argument? Why do you care so much how a parent frames their child's addiction? Why does it bother you so much that something in addition to personal responsibility or decision making may be at play?

The lady with the child with chronic pain, for example. But several others as well. And, because addicts are bad for all of society...and especially when it's a teen or young adult addict I think the family's involvement in preventing, mitigating, dealing with, and solving the problem are huge - and it's clear that people with the adoremenrioned attitudes are not stepping up to do so

Is it clear? How do you know what their attitude is? Can you point me to peer-reviewed research that shows that being insufficiently guilt-ridden and blaming helps prevent and overcome addiction?

Uhhh, because an important element of achieving (and maintaining) recovery involves recognizing the element of personal choice involved - you control whether or not to dedicate yourself to getting clean and taking the necessary steps, you control whether or not to set yourself up for failure or success, you control whether or not you turn back to those drugs a month down the line when an urge hits. And that's not going to happen when your own parents are telling you you're an innocent and a victim of your circumstances.
See, e.g., common sense.

Again, you're getting yourself all roiled up in imagined scenarios about how you think these parents approach recovery. I seriously doubt they're telling their kids "Honey, you're innocent, you just sit there and don't lift a finger to recover." You're creating some kind of bizarre and baseless fantasy about a really difficult situation (maybe the most difficult a parent can face short of child death) for your own need to blame addicts and your parents. I wonder why. BTW what's your viewpoint on Methadone and other maintainence drugs? Do you think they're bad because they reduce the "personal responsibility" needed to recover?

Not the PP you're responding to, but here's my view on Narcan, one which I'm hardly alone in.

There's an uptick in overdoses, because these addicts think they will be revived, so what's the harm in pushing the next high a little higher?

So you'll find them in public places, passed out, often with young toddlers in tow.

It's disgusting, and terrible. And I don't give a crap if you think that makes me a "terrible" person. Bite me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Acknowledging the personal choice/responsibility is actually crucial to stopping the drug use. You know, the whole "want to get clean" part. Obviously when the addict is a teen with parents determined to excuse (enable) him it's an additional barrier. People like you are pathetic and selfish. The whole "it's not the addicts' fault!" Is actually a self-serving defense mechanism designed to protect your feelings.

It is a dangerous myth that only those "who want to get clean" can get clean. It's right along there with you have to hit rock bottom before you can get clean. Addiction is most easily treated in its earlier phases. If you wait for people to want to get clean or hit bottom there are almost no options left that work well. Court mandated rehab attendees have just as much success as voluntary rehab attendees.

It's not a myth, but common knowledge among families of addicts and alcoholics that someone who does not want to get sober for themselves will not stay sober.

This is a recipe for families and everyone else to just throw up their hands and give up. This is what leads parents to throw their addicted kids out of the house and make them a public charge. Before definitely giving up and living it time no addict fully and unreservedly wants to be clean.

The trick is to make addiction uncomfortable enough so that the addict has at least some small part of his brain that wants to get clean. Court mandated addicts may not want to get clean, but they'd rather do rehab than prison time, so some small part of their brain wants to be clean once they process that choice. Instilling and exploiting just the smallest shadow of a penumbra of a feeling that going clean may vaguely be better than the alternative can result in recovery success.

Many, many people attend their first NA meeting with just the vaguest idea that clean may be a better way or to get someone in their life off their back. They are not turned back and no one in NA would tell them they cannot get clean unless they really want to get clean.

Parents who say this are trying to justify why, scores of thousands of dollars late, their child's third rehab failed.

So you agree with me that addicts have to *want* to get clean. Make a personal choice to get clean. Okay then.

Dude, this isn't some kind of high school gotcha debate. Obviously it takes personal effort to beat addiction. But your simplistic view that "it's a personal choice" isn't what this poster is talking about. Believe it or not, the role of motivation in recovery is something that actual experts actually study. And it is much more complicated than saying "it's a personal choice." It takes support from others, which takes tax dollars, which takes investment by society. Not just "personal choice."

Ah tax dollars. Yes.

You've got kids who are looking to get high, they use the wrong drug that happens to be really addictive, boom. Tax dollars please!

right well, thanks for clarifying your agenda, then. addiction = personal failing = just let them die.

Oh, you're one of those people who thinks other people should pay for your problems, and if they don't, they are horrible people? Awesome.

Yes, I do think you're a horrible person if you don't think that drug addicts should get help affording treatment. In fact, I do.

Good, we can start by emptying your bank account into the nearest rehab center, since you're such a morally superior person.

I'll gladly pay more taxes to support a single-payer healthcare system that includes drug treatment programs. Gladly.

Don't forget your oxygen tank up there on your high horse, asshole.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The lady with the child with chronic pain, for example. But several others as well. And, because addicts are bad for all of society...and especially when it's a teen or young adult addict I think the family's involvement in preventing, mitigating, dealing with, and solving the problem are huge - and it's clear that people with the adoremenrioned attitudes are not stepping up to do so

So here's the lady with the chronic pain child.

Do I blame doctors for not taking the pain seriously? Yes I do. Do I blame them for saying it was all in her head after a one minute examination? Yes I do. Because if they had taken it seriously pain relief would not have been an issue because they would have been addressing it. Do I blame doctors for child making bizarre choice to self medicate with heroin when child didn't even drink (and still doesn't to this day)? No. However, doctors need to understand that when they deny a child's pain they are putting that child at risk of illegal drug use.

Guess what the major factor was in child's recovery? A doctor who actually spent time examining child and made a diagnosis--and a real disorder, not something like fibromyalgia. There is nothing I could have done to prevent the illness. I suppose I could have yelled and screamed at doctors who blew child off, but not really in my nature. And there is nothing more I could have done to search for a diagnosis--I spent untold hours researching and took child to doctor after doctor pursuing the problem--dozens of them.

Forgive me if I think it's a bit misplaced to pigeon hole me as an uninvolved mother who should be blaming her child's addiction on her poor parenting.

Maybe also don't pigeon hole people with fibromyalgia as suffering from a fake disorder?

Fibromyalgia can be a real disorder but it is widely known that it is a favorite throwaway diagnosis by doctors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

Well, that's good, I guess.

Right, like who among did not make what in retrospect were some really bad choices when we were teens and in college? There really is nothing that happened during that period about which you do not say to yourself, "What was I thinking?" Making bad choices and then realizing the consequences you lacked foresight to see when you made them is actually part of becoming an adult. Too bad that when it's oxy it can have such devastating consequences.

Actually, (I'm the PP you are responding to) this is the sort of discussion we should be having - yes, kids make BAD decisions sometimes and it is up to us to help them avoid these mistakes. Is it something parents can control 100%? Obviously not and obviously this is a distressing thing for us parents. But making up self-serving lies about how it's not your kids' fault or infantilizing them to the point of comparing to toddlers and wall sockets are just tricks you do to make yourself feel better. Face it, teenagers have to seek out dealers and opportunities to use - they are making an effort to get high. No one is holding them down and shoving a needle into their arms.

Agree with this. I absolutely sympathize with parents of teenage addicts and don't necessarily think it is the parents' fault, per se (although in many cases, I do think the parents could and should have done more. But not all cases). I have NO problem with someone saying "My kid was a good kid who made a stupid decision, and the price he's paying feels much higher than it should be." I get that. But acting as if your child is innocent, blameless, and a victim - nope. Not doing anyone any favors, him especially

Straw man. I don't see any parent of an addicted child claiming their child was blameless. I do seem them correctly pointing out environmental contributors to the addiction (legal prescriptions, the highly addictive nature of the drug, actual brain-based differences that make some people more prone to addiction). But you moralists are so caught up in blaming that you can't stand to hear that sometimes even if people weak, they still deserve society's help. Parents must give JUST the right note of contrition before they're deserving of your concern. Nope. Not your business.

It is my business, actually, if they're going to try and convince me that their child's addiction is entirely a product of everything else EXCEPT their child's shortcoming or poor decision-making, because their child was a complete victim who had no control over the situation whatsoever. Go upthread and you will see exactly this.

Who made that argument? Why do you care so much how a parent frames their child's addiction? Why does it bother you so much that something in addition to personal responsibility or decision making may be at play?

The lady with the child with chronic pain, for example. But several others as well. And, because addicts are bad for all of society...and especially when it's a teen or young adult addict I think the family's involvement in preventing, mitigating, dealing with, and solving the problem are huge - and it's clear that people with the adoremenrioned attitudes are not stepping up to do so

Is it clear? How do you know what their attitude is? Can you point me to peer-reviewed research that shows that being insufficiently guilt-ridden and blaming helps prevent and overcome addiction?

Uhhh, because an important element of achieving (and maintaining) recovery involves recognizing the element of personal choice involved - you control whether or not to dedicate yourself to getting clean and taking the necessary steps, you control whether or not to set yourself up for failure or success, you control whether or not you turn back to those drugs a month down the line when an urge hits. And that's not going to happen when your own parents are telling you you're an innocent and a victim of your circumstances.
See, e.g., common sense.

Again, you're getting yourself all roiled up in imagined scenarios about how you think these parents approach recovery. I seriously doubt they're telling their kids "Honey, you're innocent, you just sit there and don't lift a finger to recover." You're creating some kind of bizarre and baseless fantasy about a really difficult situation (maybe the most difficult a parent can face short of child death) for your own need to blame addicts and your parents. I wonder why. BTW what's your viewpoint on Methadone and other maintainence drugs? Do you think they're bad because they reduce the "personal responsibility" needed to recover?

Not the PP you're responding to, but here's my view on Narcan, one which I'm hardly alone in.

There's an uptick in overdoses, because these addicts think they will be revived, so what's the harm in pushing the next high a little higher?

So you'll find them in public places, passed out, often with young toddlers in tow.

It's disgusting, and terrible. And I don't give a crap if you think that makes me a "terrible" person. Bite me.

Dude. You're just showing your ignorance. I asked about METHADONE. Which is a maintenance drug used to manage addiction. Narcan has nothing to do with my question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

Well, that's good, I guess.

Right, like who among did not make what in retrospect were some really bad choices when we were teens and in college? There really is nothing that happened during that period about which you do not say to yourself, "What was I thinking?" Making bad choices and then realizing the consequences you lacked foresight to see when you made them is actually part of becoming an adult. Too bad that when it's oxy it can have such devastating consequences.

Actually, (I'm the PP you are responding to) this is the sort of discussion we should be having - yes, kids make BAD decisions sometimes and it is up to us to help them avoid these mistakes. Is it something parents can control 100%? Obviously not and obviously this is a distressing thing for us parents. But making up self-serving lies about how it's not your kids' fault or infantilizing them to the point of comparing to toddlers and wall sockets are just tricks you do to make yourself feel better. Face it, teenagers have to seek out dealers and opportunities to use - they are making an effort to get high. No one is holding them down and shoving a needle into their arms.

Agree with this. I absolutely sympathize with parents of teenage addicts and don't necessarily think it is the parents' fault, per se (although in many cases, I do think the parents could and should have done more. But not all cases). I have NO problem with someone saying "My kid was a good kid who made a stupid decision, and the price he's paying feels much higher than it should be." I get that. But acting as if your child is innocent, blameless, and a victim - nope. Not doing anyone any favors, him especially

Straw man. I don't see any parent of an addicted child claiming their child was blameless. I do seem them correctly pointing out environmental contributors to the addiction (legal prescriptions, the highly addictive nature of the drug, actual brain-based differences that make some people more prone to addiction). But you moralists are so caught up in blaming that you can't stand to hear that sometimes even if people weak, they still deserve society's help. Parents must give JUST the right note of contrition before they're deserving of your concern. Nope. Not your business.

It is my business, actually, if they're going to try and convince me that their child's addiction is entirely a product of everything else EXCEPT their child's shortcoming or poor decision-making, because their child was a complete victim who had no control over the situation whatsoever. Go upthread and you will see exactly this.

Who made that argument? Why do you care so much how a parent frames their child's addiction? Why does it bother you so much that something in addition to personal responsibility or decision making may be at play?

The lady with the child with chronic pain, for example. But several others as well. And, because addicts are bad for all of society...and especially when it's a teen or young adult addict I think the family's involvement in preventing, mitigating, dealing with, and solving the problem are huge - and it's clear that people with the adoremenrioned attitudes are not stepping up to do so

Is it clear? How do you know what their attitude is? Can you point me to peer-reviewed research that shows that being insufficiently guilt-ridden and blaming helps prevent and overcome addiction?

Uhhh, because an important element of achieving (and maintaining) recovery involves recognizing the element of personal choice involved - you control whether or not to dedicate yourself to getting clean and taking the necessary steps, you control whether or not to set yourself up for failure or success, you control whether or not you turn back to those drugs a month down the line when an urge hits. And that's not going to happen when your own parents are telling you you're an innocent and a victim of your circumstances.
See, e.g., common sense.

Again, you're getting yourself all roiled up in imagined scenarios about how you think these parents approach recovery. I seriously doubt they're telling their kids "Honey, you're innocent, you just sit there and don't lift a finger to recover." You're creating some kind of bizarre and baseless fantasy about a really difficult situation (maybe the most difficult a parent can face short of child death) for your own need to blame addicts and your parents. I wonder why. BTW what's your viewpoint on Methadone and other maintainence drugs? Do you think they're bad because they reduce the "personal responsibility" needed to recover?

Not the PP you're responding to, but here's my view on Narcan, one which I'm hardly alone in.

There's an uptick in overdoses, because these addicts think they will be revived, so what's the harm in pushing the next high a little higher?

So you'll find them in public places, passed out, often with young toddlers in tow.

It's disgusting, and terrible. And I don't give a crap if you think that makes me a "terrible" person. Bite me.

Dude. You're just showing your ignorance. I asked about METHADONE. Which is a maintenance drug used to manage addiction. Narcan has nothing to do with my question.

Narcan is a "treatment" given to addicts, just in differing circumstances. Just like Methadone, they reduce the "personal responsibility" needed to recover. And, lo and behold, perverse consequences. Why are you so eager to avoid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

Well, that's good, I guess.

Right, like who among did not make what in retrospect were some really bad choices when we were teens and in college? There really is nothing that happened during that period about which you do not say to yourself, "What was I thinking?" Making bad choices and then realizing the consequences you lacked foresight to see when you made them is actually part of becoming an adult. Too bad that when it's oxy it can have such devastating consequences.

Actually, (I'm the PP you are responding to) this is the sort of discussion we should be having - yes, kids make BAD decisions sometimes and it is up to us to help them avoid these mistakes. Is it something parents can control 100%? Obviously not and obviously this is a distressing thing for us parents. But making up self-serving lies about how it's not your kids' fault or infantilizing them to the point of comparing to toddlers and wall sockets are just tricks you do to make yourself feel better. Face it, teenagers have to seek out dealers and opportunities to use - they are making an effort to get high. No one is holding them down and shoving a needle into their arms.

Agree with this. I absolutely sympathize with parents of teenage addicts and don't necessarily think it is the parents' fault, per se (although in many cases, I do think the parents could and should have done more. But not all cases). I have NO problem with someone saying "My kid was a good kid who made a stupid decision, and the price he's paying feels much higher than it should be." I get that. But acting as if your child is innocent, blameless, and a victim - nope. Not doing anyone any favors, him especially

Straw man. I don't see any parent of an addicted child claiming their child was blameless. I do seem them correctly pointing out environmental contributors to the addiction (legal prescriptions, the highly addictive nature of the drug, actual brain-based differences that make some people more prone to addiction). But you moralists are so caught up in blaming that you can't stand to hear that sometimes even if people weak, they still deserve society's help. Parents must give JUST the right note of contrition before they're deserving of your concern. Nope. Not your business.

It is my business, actually, if they're going to try and convince me that their child's addiction is entirely a product of everything else EXCEPT their child's shortcoming or poor decision-making, because their child was a complete victim who had no control over the situation whatsoever. Go upthread and you will see exactly this.

Who made that argument? Why do you care so much how a parent frames their child's addiction? Why does it bother you so much that something in addition to personal responsibility or decision making may be at play?

The lady with the child with chronic pain, for example. But several others as well. And, because addicts are bad for all of society...and especially when it's a teen or young adult addict I think the family's involvement in preventing, mitigating, dealing with, and solving the problem are huge - and it's clear that people with the adoremenrioned attitudes are not stepping up to do so

Is it clear? How do you know what their attitude is? Can you point me to peer-reviewed research that shows that being insufficiently guilt-ridden and blaming helps prevent and overcome addiction?

Uhhh, because an important element of achieving (and maintaining) recovery involves recognizing the element of personal choice involved - you control whether or not to dedicate yourself to getting clean and taking the necessary steps, you control whether or not to set yourself up for failure or success, you control whether or not you turn back to those drugs a month down the line when an urge hits. And that's not going to happen when your own parents are telling you you're an innocent and a victim of your circumstances.
See, e.g., common sense.

Again, you're getting yourself all roiled up in imagined scenarios about how you think these parents approach recovery. I seriously doubt they're telling their kids "Honey, you're innocent, you just sit there and don't lift a finger to recover." You're creating some kind of bizarre and baseless fantasy about a really difficult situation (maybe the most difficult a parent can face short of child death) for your own need to blame addicts and your parents. I wonder why. BTW what's your viewpoint on Methadone and other maintainence drugs? Do you think they're bad because they reduce the "personal responsibility" needed to recover?

Not the PP you're responding to, but here's my view on Narcan, one which I'm hardly alone in.

There's an uptick in overdoses, because these addicts think they will be revived, so what's the harm in pushing the next high a little higher?

So you'll find them in public places, passed out, often with young toddlers in tow.

It's disgusting, and terrible. And I don't give a crap if you think that makes me a "terrible" person. Bite me.

Dude. You're just showing your ignorance. I asked about METHADONE. Which is a maintenance drug used to manage addiction. Narcan has nothing to do with my question.

Narcan is a "treatment" given to addicts, just in differing circumstances. Just like Methadone, they reduce the "personal responsibility" needed to recover. And, lo and behold, perverse consequences. Why are you so eager to avoid?

So you are against Methadone too because it reduces personal responsibility. Ok, good to know where you're coming from.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

Well, that's good, I guess.

Right, like who among did not make what in retrospect were some really bad choices when we were teens and in college? There really is nothing that happened during that period about which you do not say to yourself, "What was I thinking?" Making bad choices and then realizing the consequences you lacked foresight to see when you made them is actually part of becoming an adult. Too bad that when it's oxy it can have such devastating consequences.

Actually, (I'm the PP you are responding to) this is the sort of discussion we should be having - yes, kids make BAD decisions sometimes and it is up to us to help them avoid these mistakes. Is it something parents can control 100%? Obviously not and obviously this is a distressing thing for us parents. But making up self-serving lies about how it's not your kids' fault or infantilizing them to the point of comparing to toddlers and wall sockets are just tricks you do to make yourself feel better. Face it, teenagers have to seek out dealers and opportunities to use - they are making an effort to get high. No one is holding them down and shoving a needle into their arms.

So what's your next step? The REAL meaning behind your statement is that you want parents to excoriate their own children as worthless addicts. What do you think this kind of punitive orientation is going to help with, exactly? Personally I don't care how a parent explains their child's situation to themselves, as long as they support their child in getting treatment. Why is it SO important to you that parents make a confession of their/their children's moral failing? Again NOBODY DISPUTES that addicts make a conscious choice to use drugs. We know that. You're caught up in the starting point that everyone has moved past ... and this says volumes more about you than the issues.

Your personal insults and defensiveness says way more about you than me.

You don't think acknowledging realities behind addiction - especially when talking about the personal choices involved - is helpful to overcoming the problem? Instead you'll want to shout everyone else down - blame the government, blame the schools, anything but your kid's poor decision making (and what this really means is blaming yourself)? You think this is helpful instead? Go right ahead. I'm sure your denial and inability to deal with problems head on had nothing to do with your kid getting involved with drugs.

Whoa! Where did PP say she was blaming government or schools? She is just saying trying to ascribe blame is unhelpful and does nothing to address how parents should help an addict child.

You haven't read the whole thread then.

It's mind boggling that something as simple as acknowledging personal responsibility when you go out, buy drugs, and stick these said drugs into yourself for fun is something so vehemently rejected.

You people are unbelievable.

it's mindboggling that you can't accept that NOBODY HAS ARGUED THERE IS NO PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY involved. I'm just saying that that's not the end of the story in terms of preventing and treating addiction.

1. People have argued/implied that kids do not bear personal responsibility. Read the thread.

2. No one said accepting personal responsibility in some cases of addiction was the end story in terms of prevention or treatment. But I will argue that it is a crucial element.

1. No, nobody has said that. They've pointed to other factors that interacted with the child's choice. Can you accept that there are other societal/biological factors that lead to addiction? What really happened is that you lost your sh*t when someone started explaining the actual rule of a prescription of oxy in their child's addiction.
2. This isn't about your debate arguments about words, but rather about the actual science behind treating addiction. Which you know nothing about. The fact is that MOTIVATION matters a great deal in recovery. But the role motivation plays interacts extensively with socio-economic factors that impact the resources available to sustain recovery. And, it's very common for addicts to be ambivalent when they enter treatment (but recover anyway, give the right resources). Anyway, the bigger question is what the role of "accepting personal responsibility" entails. If you're the same poster as PP (don't know that you are) the personal responsibility angle means that society has no collective role in helping addicts.

Blah blah paragraphs full of straw men arguments and personal insults.

If "no one" said what I am arguing against, why are you so defensive and triggered? And why does acknowledging personal responsibility mean we therefore shouldn't help addicts? <--this is something YOU created. Maybe others think like this too, and that's why they are so eager to blame everyone else. Just because you admit that your addicted kid bears responsibility, doesn't mean that you shouldn't help him/her. Doesn't mean that he/she doesn't deserve help. Cut the black and white thinking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

Well, that's good, I guess.

Right, like who among did not make what in retrospect were some really bad choices when we were teens and in college? There really is nothing that happened during that period about which you do not say to yourself, "What was I thinking?" Making bad choices and then realizing the consequences you lacked foresight to see when you made them is actually part of becoming an adult. Too bad that when it's oxy it can have such devastating consequences.

Actually, (I'm the PP you are responding to) this is the sort of discussion we should be having - yes, kids make BAD decisions sometimes and it is up to us to help them avoid these mistakes. Is it something parents can control 100%? Obviously not and obviously this is a distressing thing for us parents. But making up self-serving lies about how it's not your kids' fault or infantilizing them to the point of comparing to toddlers and wall sockets are just tricks you do to make yourself feel better. Face it, teenagers have to seek out dealers and opportunities to use - they are making an effort to get high. No one is holding them down and shoving a needle into their arms.

Agree with this. I absolutely sympathize with parents of teenage addicts and don't necessarily think it is the parents' fault, per se (although in many cases, I do think the parents could and should have done more. But not all cases). I have NO problem with someone saying "My kid was a good kid who made a stupid decision, and the price he's paying feels much higher than it should be." I get that. But acting as if your child is innocent, blameless, and a victim - nope. Not doing anyone any favors, him especially

Straw man. I don't see any parent of an addicted child claiming their child was blameless. I do seem them correctly pointing out environmental contributors to the addiction (legal prescriptions, the highly addictive nature of the drug, actual brain-based differences that make some people more prone to addiction). But you moralists are so caught up in blaming that you can't stand to hear that sometimes even if people weak, they still deserve society's help. Parents must give JUST the right note of contrition before they're deserving of your concern. Nope. Not your business.

It is my business, actually, if they're going to try and convince me that their child's addiction is entirely a product of everything else EXCEPT their child's shortcoming or poor decision-making, because their child was a complete victim who had no control over the situation whatsoever. Go upthread and you will see exactly this.

Who made that argument? Why do you care so much how a parent frames their child's addiction? Why does it bother you so much that something in addition to personal responsibility or decision making may be at play?

The lady with the child with chronic pain, for example. But several others as well. And, because addicts are bad for all of society...and especially when it's a teen or young adult addict I think the family's involvement in preventing, mitigating, dealing with, and solving the problem are huge - and it's clear that people with the adoremenrioned attitudes are not stepping up to do so

Is it clear? How do you know what their attitude is? Can you point me to peer-reviewed research that shows that being insufficiently guilt-ridden and blaming helps prevent and overcome addiction?

Uhhh, because an important element of achieving (and maintaining) recovery involves recognizing the element of personal choice involved - you control whether or not to dedicate yourself to getting clean and taking the necessary steps, you control whether or not to set yourself up for failure or success, you control whether or not you turn back to those drugs a month down the line when an urge hits. And that's not going to happen when your own parents are telling you you're an innocent and a victim of your circumstances.
See, e.g., common sense.

Again, you're getting yourself all roiled up in imagined scenarios about how you think these parents approach recovery. I seriously doubt they're telling their kids "Honey, you're innocent, you just sit there and don't lift a finger to recover." You're creating some kind of bizarre and baseless fantasy about a really difficult situation (maybe the most difficult a parent can face short of child death) for your own need to blame addicts and your parents. I wonder why. BTW what's your viewpoint on Methadone and other maintainence drugs? Do you think they're bad because they reduce the "personal responsibility" needed to recover?

Not the PP you're responding to, but here's my view on Narcan, one which I'm hardly alone in.

There's an uptick in overdoses, because these addicts think they will be revived, so what's the harm in pushing the next high a little higher?

So you'll find them in public places, passed out, often with young toddlers in tow.

It's disgusting, and terrible. And I don't give a crap if you think that makes me a "terrible" person. Bite me.

Dude. You're just showing your ignorance. I asked about METHADONE. Which is a maintenance drug used to manage addiction. Narcan has nothing to do with my question.

Narcan is a "treatment" given to addicts, just in differing circumstances. Just like Methadone, they reduce the "personal responsibility" needed to recover. And, lo and behold, perverse consequences. Why are you so eager to avoid?

So you are against Methadone too because it reduces personal responsibility. Ok, good to know where you're coming from.

I was quoting you, genius. Maybe cut back the drugs and your brain will start functioning again, "dude."

[Anonymous]

Name the schools, and they will have to address the issue!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

Well, that's good, I guess.

Right, like who among did not make what in retrospect were some really bad choices when we were teens and in college? There really is nothing that happened during that period about which you do not say to yourself, "What was I thinking?" Making bad choices and then realizing the consequences you lacked foresight to see when you made them is actually part of becoming an adult. Too bad that when it's oxy it can have such devastating consequences.

Actually, (I'm the PP you are responding to) this is the sort of discussion we should be having - yes, kids make BAD decisions sometimes and it is up to us to help them avoid these mistakes. Is it something parents can control 100%? Obviously not and obviously this is a distressing thing for us parents. But making up self-serving lies about how it's not your kids' fault or infantilizing them to the point of comparing to toddlers and wall sockets are just tricks you do to make yourself feel better. Face it, teenagers have to seek out dealers and opportunities to use - they are making an effort to get high. No one is holding them down and shoving a needle into their arms.

Agree with this. I absolutely sympathize with parents of teenage addicts and don't necessarily think it is the parents' fault, per se (although in many cases, I do think the parents could and should have done more. But not all cases). I have NO problem with someone saying "My kid was a good kid who made a stupid decision, and the price he's paying feels much higher than it should be." I get that. But acting as if your child is innocent, blameless, and a victim - nope. Not doing anyone any favors, him especially

Straw man. I don't see any parent of an addicted child claiming their child was blameless. I do seem them correctly pointing out environmental contributors to the addiction (legal prescriptions, the highly addictive nature of the drug, actual brain-based differences that make some people more prone to addiction). But you moralists are so caught up in blaming that you can't stand to hear that sometimes even if people weak, they still deserve society's help. Parents must give JUST the right note of contrition before they're deserving of your concern. Nope. Not your business.

It is my business, actually, if they're going to try and convince me that their child's addiction is entirely a product of everything else EXCEPT their child's shortcoming or poor decision-making, because their child was a complete victim who had no control over the situation whatsoever. Go upthread and you will see exactly this.

Who made that argument? Why do you care so much how a parent frames their child's addiction? Why does it bother you so much that something in addition to personal responsibility or decision making may be at play?

The lady with the child with chronic pain, for example. But several others as well. And, because addicts are bad for all of society...and especially when it's a teen or young adult addict I think the family's involvement in preventing, mitigating, dealing with, and solving the problem are huge - and it's clear that people with the adoremenrioned attitudes are not stepping up to do so

Is it clear? How do you know what their attitude is? Can you point me to peer-reviewed research that shows that being insufficiently guilt-ridden and blaming helps prevent and overcome addiction?

Uhhh, because an important element of achieving (and maintaining) recovery involves recognizing the element of personal choice involved - you control whether or not to dedicate yourself to getting clean and taking the necessary steps, you control whether or not to set yourself up for failure or success, you control whether or not you turn back to those drugs a month down the line when an urge hits. And that's not going to happen when your own parents are telling you you're an innocent and a victim of your circumstances.
See, e.g., common sense.

Again, you're getting yourself all roiled up in imagined scenarios about how you think these parents approach recovery. I seriously doubt they're telling their kids "Honey, you're innocent, you just sit there and don't lift a finger to recover." You're creating some kind of bizarre and baseless fantasy about a really difficult situation (maybe the most difficult a parent can face short of child death) for your own need to blame addicts and your parents. I wonder why. BTW what's your viewpoint on Methadone and other maintainence drugs? Do you think they're bad because they reduce the "personal responsibility" needed to recover?

Not the PP you're responding to, but here's my view on Narcan, one which I'm hardly alone in.

There's an uptick in overdoses, because these addicts think they will be revived, so what's the harm in pushing the next high a little higher?

So you'll find them in public places, passed out, often with young toddlers in tow.

It's disgusting, and terrible. And I don't give a crap if you think that makes me a "terrible" person. Bite me.

Dude. You're just showing your ignorance. I asked about METHADONE. Which is a maintenance drug used to manage addiction. Narcan has nothing to do with my question.

Narcan is a "treatment" given to addicts, just in differing circumstances. Just like Methadone, they reduce the "personal responsibility" needed to recover. And, lo and behold, perverse consequences. Why are you so eager to avoid?

So you are against Methadone too because it reduces personal responsibility. Ok, good to know where you're coming from.

I was quoting you, genius. Maybe cut back the drugs and your brain will start functioning again, "dude."

Ok, so what is your viewpoint on Methadone and similar medications?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

Well, that's good, I guess.

Right, like who among did not make what in retrospect were some really bad choices when we were teens and in college? There really is nothing that happened during that period about which you do not say to yourself, "What was I thinking?" Making bad choices and then realizing the consequences you lacked foresight to see when you made them is actually part of becoming an adult. Too bad that when it's oxy it can have such devastating consequences.

Actually, (I'm the PP you are responding to) this is the sort of discussion we should be having - yes, kids make BAD decisions sometimes and it is up to us to help them avoid these mistakes. Is it something parents can control 100%? Obviously not and obviously this is a distressing thing for us parents. But making up self-serving lies about how it's not your kids' fault or infantilizing them to the point of comparing to toddlers and wall sockets are just tricks you do to make yourself feel better. Face it, teenagers have to seek out dealers and opportunities to use - they are making an effort to get high. No one is holding them down and shoving a needle into their arms.

Agree with this. I absolutely sympathize with parents of teenage addicts and don't necessarily think it is the parents' fault, per se (although in many cases, I do think the parents could and should have done more. But not all cases). I have NO problem with someone saying "My kid was a good kid who made a stupid decision, and the price he's paying feels much higher than it should be." I get that. But acting as if your child is innocent, blameless, and a victim - nope. Not doing anyone any favors, him especially

Straw man. I don't see any parent of an addicted child claiming their child was blameless. I do seem them correctly pointing out environmental contributors to the addiction (legal prescriptions, the highly addictive nature of the drug, actual brain-based differences that make some people more prone to addiction). But you moralists are so caught up in blaming that you can't stand to hear that sometimes even if people weak, they still deserve society's help. Parents must give JUST the right note of contrition before they're deserving of your concern. Nope. Not your business.

It is my business, actually, if they're going to try and convince me that their child's addiction is entirely a product of everything else EXCEPT their child's shortcoming or poor decision-making, because their child was a complete victim who had no control over the situation whatsoever. Go upthread and you will see exactly this.

Who made that argument? Why do you care so much how a parent frames their child's addiction? Why does it bother you so much that something in addition to personal responsibility or decision making may be at play?

The lady with the child with chronic pain, for example. But several others as well. And, because addicts are bad for all of society...and especially when it's a teen or young adult addict I think the family's involvement in preventing, mitigating, dealing with, and solving the problem are huge - and it's clear that people with the adoremenrioned attitudes are not stepping up to do so

Is it clear? How do you know what their attitude is? Can you point me to peer-reviewed research that shows that being insufficiently guilt-ridden and blaming helps prevent and overcome addiction?

Uhhh, because an important element of achieving (and maintaining) recovery involves recognizing the element of personal choice involved - you control whether or not to dedicate yourself to getting clean and taking the necessary steps, you control whether or not to set yourself up for failure or success, you control whether or not you turn back to those drugs a month down the line when an urge hits. And that's not going to happen when your own parents are telling you you're an innocent and a victim of your circumstances.
See, e.g., common sense.

Again, you're getting yourself all roiled up in imagined scenarios about how you think these parents approach recovery. I seriously doubt they're telling their kids "Honey, you're innocent, you just sit there and don't lift a finger to recover." You're creating some kind of bizarre and baseless fantasy about a really difficult situation (maybe the most difficult a parent can face short of child death) for your own need to blame addicts and your parents. I wonder why. BTW what's your viewpoint on Methadone and other maintainence drugs? Do you think they're bad because they reduce the "personal responsibility" needed to recover?

Not the PP you're responding to, but here's my view on Narcan, one which I'm hardly alone in.

There's an uptick in overdoses, because these addicts think they will be revived, so what's the harm in pushing the next high a little higher?

So you'll find them in public places, passed out, often with young toddlers in tow.

It's disgusting, and terrible. And I don't give a crap if you think that makes me a "terrible" person. Bite me.

Dude. You're just showing your ignorance. I asked about METHADONE. Which is a maintenance drug used to manage addiction. Narcan has nothing to do with my question.

Narcan is a "treatment" given to addicts, just in differing circumstances. Just like Methadone, they reduce the "personal responsibility" needed to recover. And, lo and behold, perverse consequences. Why are you so eager to avoid?

So you are against Methadone too because it reduces personal responsibility. Ok, good to know where you're coming from.

I was quoting you, genius. Maybe cut back the drugs and your brain will start functioning again, "dude."

Ok, so what is your viewpoint on Methadone and similar medications?

You start.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

Well, that's good, I guess.

Right, like who among did not make what in retrospect were some really bad choices when we were teens and in college? There really is nothing that happened during that period about which you do not say to yourself, "What was I thinking?" Making bad choices and then realizing the consequences you lacked foresight to see when you made them is actually part of becoming an adult. Too bad that when it's oxy it can have such devastating consequences.

Actually, (I'm the PP you are responding to) this is the sort of discussion we should be having - yes, kids make BAD decisions sometimes and it is up to us to help them avoid these mistakes. Is it something parents can control 100%? Obviously not and obviously this is a distressing thing for us parents. But making up self-serving lies about how it's not your kids' fault or infantilizing them to the point of comparing to toddlers and wall sockets are just tricks you do to make yourself feel better. Face it, teenagers have to seek out dealers and opportunities to use - they are making an effort to get high. No one is holding them down and shoving a needle into their arms.

Agree with this. I absolutely sympathize with parents of teenage addicts and don't necessarily think it is the parents' fault, per se (although in many cases, I do think the parents could and should have done more. But not all cases). I have NO problem with someone saying "My kid was a good kid who made a stupid decision, and the price he's paying feels much higher than it should be." I get that. But acting as if your child is innocent, blameless, and a victim - nope. Not doing anyone any favors, him especially

Straw man. I don't see any parent of an addicted child claiming their child was blameless. I do seem them correctly pointing out environmental contributors to the addiction (legal prescriptions, the highly addictive nature of the drug, actual brain-based differences that make some people more prone to addiction). But you moralists are so caught up in blaming that you can't stand to hear that sometimes even if people weak, they still deserve society's help. Parents must give JUST the right note of contrition before they're deserving of your concern. Nope. Not your business.

It is my business, actually, if they're going to try and convince me that their child's addiction is entirely a product of everything else EXCEPT their child's shortcoming or poor decision-making, because their child was a complete victim who had no control over the situation whatsoever. Go upthread and you will see exactly this.

Who made that argument? Why do you care so much how a parent frames their child's addiction? Why does it bother you so much that something in addition to personal responsibility or decision making may be at play?

The lady with the child with chronic pain, for example. But several others as well. And, because addicts are bad for all of society...and especially when it's a teen or young adult addict I think the family's involvement in preventing, mitigating, dealing with, and solving the problem are huge - and it's clear that people with the adoremenrioned attitudes are not stepping up to do so

Is it clear? How do you know what their attitude is? Can you point me to peer-reviewed research that shows that being insufficiently guilt-ridden and blaming helps prevent and overcome addiction?

Uhhh, because an important element of achieving (and maintaining) recovery involves recognizing the element of personal choice involved - you control whether or not to dedicate yourself to getting clean and taking the necessary steps, you control whether or not to set yourself up for failure or success, you control whether or not you turn back to those drugs a month down the line when an urge hits. And that's not going to happen when your own parents are telling you you're an innocent and a victim of your circumstances.
See, e.g., common sense.

Again, you're getting yourself all roiled up in imagined scenarios about how you think these parents approach recovery. I seriously doubt they're telling their kids "Honey, you're innocent, you just sit there and don't lift a finger to recover." You're creating some kind of bizarre and baseless fantasy about a really difficult situation (maybe the most difficult a parent can face short of child death) for your own need to blame addicts and your parents. I wonder why. BTW what's your viewpoint on Methadone and other maintainence drugs? Do you think they're bad because they reduce the "personal responsibility" needed to recover?

Not the PP you're responding to, but here's my view on Narcan, one which I'm hardly alone in.

There's an uptick in overdoses, because these addicts think they will be revived, so what's the harm in pushing the next high a little higher?

So you'll find them in public places, passed out, often with young toddlers in tow.

It's disgusting, and terrible. And I don't give a crap if you think that makes me a "terrible" person. Bite me.

Dude. You're just showing your ignorance. I asked about METHADONE. Which is a maintenance drug used to manage addiction. Narcan has nothing to do with my question.

Narcan is a "treatment" given to addicts, just in differing circumstances. Just like Methadone, they reduce the "personal responsibility" needed to recover. And, lo and behold, perverse consequences. Why are you so eager to avoid?

So you are against Methadone too because it reduces personal responsibility. Ok, good to know where you're coming from.

I was quoting you, genius. Maybe cut back the drugs and your brain will start functioning again, "dude."

Ok, so what is your viewpoint on Methadone and similar medications?

I am a different PP, but one of the ones you questioned earlier. I think methadone / suboxone can be beneficial if used properly - it seems again like it comes down to whether the person WANTS to get better. I am wondering why you feel that that point isn't valid. I have a unique POV in that I know several former addicts - trust me, if they don't want to get and stay clean, they won't. Why do you think kids get shipped out to intensive rehabs and are cured of all physical dependence, then come back nd replaces 6 months later? Rinse and repeat. If the internal motivation and sense of personal responsibility isn't there, they will turn to it again, absolutely. My brother, who has been clean for 8 years, told me when he hears someone talking about it now he still feels a momentary internal urge to use...the high is just THAT good. When it came to finally getting clean, he had to make that conscious choice himself...and then he had to commit himself to the hard work of staying there. And he actually did use suboxone - he started under the care of a doctor. He said weed helped him get through the toughest initial days. But underlying everything was that he finally decided he wanted to do it

[Anonymous]

Meanwhile the drug makers from China and Mexico are making a killing pushing this stuff all over the country. They know it is deadly, will get you hooked, and they make a ton of money. If someone makes a choice to get high from pot or alcohol heroin is no longer a big step and the drug makers are profiting while they are killing Americans.