Just how prevalent is this oxy addiction thing among our young adults in top privates?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to wonder, in this day and age, how kids are still voluntarily taking this stuff recreationally. 10/15 years ago, it was different - the true extent of their addictiveness was not really known. But now I am seriously hearing about this epidemic multiple times a week, you can't turn on the news or see a magazine / newspaper or listen to the radio or scroll through social media without hearing about it. I honestly don't buy that there's any way a kid in high school right now could NOT know about this - am I wrong here?? 'Opioids are terribly addictive and people are overdosing all over the country, by the hundreds' seems to be a message that you can't even hide from anymore...

Other thoughts: I can't help but wonder in this area...I know there are some who are just looking for a fun time. But how many of these teens are turning to opioids from a place of hopelessness? The intense pressure to perform and succeed can be SO intense, and in my experience is a dangerous environment for kids predisposed to mental illness. This hit me later in life (ie grad school, not high school), and luckily I didn't turn to drugs...but after years of being in a constant anxious panic in very high stress academic environments, I sort of cracked - nothing visible to the outside world, but I stopped caring or feeling anything, and was just going through the motions of 'what I HAD to do' as if from a removed, detached point. (I know now this was depression, but it's not consistent with the vision of depression I had when I was a teenager and I definitely would have tried to hide it if I were younger)

Kids are dumb. They want to have a good time, opioids feel good, they use them.

You don't hear about all the other crap they use because they don't get addicted and overdose in massive droves like today.

Ritalin, alcohol, pot - the list goes on and on. Kids are using because it is fun.

Right, but when I was in high school we knew there were certain drugs you don't touch - heroin and meth, for example. Because while alcohol and weed and mushrooms would be bad to be caught with...meth and heroin are devastatingly life-ruining. That was common knowledge

Well that's the question isn't it? I agree with you that back in my day (early 2000s) we knew not to touch heroin. Do kids know that today? Do they know and not care? I really do wonder if kids today are just so coddled - mistakes are rectified for them, they are shielded from consequences, that they just do not appreciate a choice and an action which carries heavy personal consequences. Like, today, it's a foreign concept. You see it with these droves of defensive parents determined to eliminate personal responsibility from the discussion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The lady with the child with chronic pain, for example. But several others as well. And, because addicts are bad for all of society...and especially when it's a teen or young adult addict I think the family's involvement in preventing, mitigating, dealing with, and solving the problem are huge - and it's clear that people with the adoremenrioned attitudes are not stepping up to do so

So here's the lady with the chronic pain child.

Do I blame doctors for not taking the pain seriously? Yes I do. Do I blame them for saying it was all in her head after a one minute examination? Yes I do. Because if they had taken it seriously pain relief would not have been an issue because they would have been addressing it. Do I blame doctors for child making bizarre choice to self medicate with heroin when child didn't even drink (and still doesn't to this day)? No. However, doctors need to understand that when they deny a child's pain they are putting that child at risk of illegal drug use.

Guess what the major factor was in child's recovery? A doctor who actually spent time examining child and made a diagnosis--and a real disorder, not something like fibromyalgia. There is nothing I could have done to prevent the illness. I suppose I could have yelled and screamed at doctors who blew child off, but not really in my nature. And there is nothing more I could have done to search for a diagnosis--I spent untold hours researching and took child to doctor after doctor pursuing the problem--dozens of them.

Forgive me if I think it's a bit misplaced to pigeon hole me as an uninvolved mother who should be blaming her child's addiction on her poor parenting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The lady with the child with chronic pain, for example. But several others as well. And, because addicts are bad for all of society...and especially when it's a teen or young adult addict I think the family's involvement in preventing, mitigating, dealing with, and solving the problem are huge - and it's clear that people with the adoremenrioned attitudes are not stepping up to do so

So here's the lady with the chronic pain child.

Do I blame doctors for not taking the pain seriously? Yes I do. Do I blame them for saying it was all in her head after a one minute examination? Yes I do. Because if they had taken it seriously pain relief would not have been an issue because they would have been addressing it. Do I blame doctors for child making bizarre choice to self medicate with heroin when child didn't even drink (and still doesn't to this day)? No. However, doctors need to understand that when they deny a child's pain they are putting that child at risk of illegal drug use.

Guess what the major factor was in child's recovery? A doctor who actually spent time examining child and made a diagnosis--and a real disorder, not something like fibromyalgia. There is nothing I could have done to prevent the illness. I suppose I could have yelled and screamed at doctors who blew child off, but not really in my nature. And there is nothing more I could have done to search for a diagnosis--I spent untold hours researching and took child to doctor after doctor pursuing the problem--dozens of them.

Forgive me if I think it's a bit misplaced to pigeon hole me as an uninvolved mother who should be blaming her child's addiction on her poor parenting.

Ha f*ck you, wow.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

Well, that's good, I guess.

Right, like who among did not make what in retrospect were some really bad choices when we were teens and in college? There really is nothing that happened during that period about which you do not say to yourself, "What was I thinking?" Making bad choices and then realizing the consequences you lacked foresight to see when you made them is actually part of becoming an adult. Too bad that when it's oxy it can have such devastating consequences.

Actually, (I'm the PP you are responding to) this is the sort of discussion we should be having - yes, kids make BAD decisions sometimes and it is up to us to help them avoid these mistakes. Is it something parents can control 100%? Obviously not and obviously this is a distressing thing for us parents. But making up self-serving lies about how it's not your kids' fault or infantilizing them to the point of comparing to toddlers and wall sockets are just tricks you do to make yourself feel better. Face it, teenagers have to seek out dealers and opportunities to use - they are making an effort to get high. No one is holding them down and shoving a needle into their arms.

Agree with this. I absolutely sympathize with parents of teenage addicts and don't necessarily think it is the parents' fault, per se (although in many cases, I do think the parents could and should have done more. But not all cases). I have NO problem with someone saying "My kid was a good kid who made a stupid decision, and the price he's paying feels much higher than it should be." I get that. But acting as if your child is innocent, blameless, and a victim - nope. Not doing anyone any favors, him especially

Straw man. I don't see any parent of an addicted child claiming their child was blameless. I do seem them correctly pointing out environmental contributors to the addiction (legal prescriptions, the highly addictive nature of the drug, actual brain-based differences that make some people more prone to addiction). But you moralists are so caught up in blaming that you can't stand to hear that sometimes even if people weak, they still deserve society's help. Parents must give JUST the right note of contrition before they're deserving of your concern. Nope. Not your business.

It is my business, actually, if they're going to try and convince me that their child's addiction is entirely a product of everything else EXCEPT their child's shortcoming or poor decision-making, because their child was a complete victim who had no control over the situation whatsoever. Go upthread and you will see exactly this.

Who made that argument? Why do you care so much how a parent frames their child's addiction? Why does it bother you so much that something in addition to personal responsibility or decision making may be at play?

The lady with the child with chronic pain, for example. But several others as well. And, because addicts are bad for all of society...and especially when it's a teen or young adult addict I think the family's involvement in preventing, mitigating, dealing with, and solving the problem are huge - and it's clear that people with the adoremenrioned attitudes are not stepping up to do so

Is it clear? How do you know what their attitude is? Can you point me to peer-reviewed research that shows that being insufficiently guilt-ridden and blaming helps prevent and overcome addiction?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The lady with the child with chronic pain, for example. But several others as well. And, because addicts are bad for all of society...and especially when it's a teen or young adult addict I think the family's involvement in preventing, mitigating, dealing with, and solving the problem are huge - and it's clear that people with the adoremenrioned attitudes are not stepping up to do so

So here's the lady with the chronic pain child.

Do I blame doctors for not taking the pain seriously? Yes I do. Do I blame them for saying it was all in her head after a one minute examination? Yes I do. Because if they had taken it seriously pain relief would not have been an issue because they would have been addressing it. Do I blame doctors for child making bizarre choice to self medicate with heroin when child didn't even drink (and still doesn't to this day)? No. However, doctors need to understand that when they deny a child's pain they are putting that child at risk of illegal drug use.

Guess what the major factor was in child's recovery? A doctor who actually spent time examining child and made a diagnosis--and a real disorder, not something like fibromyalgia. There is nothing I could have done to prevent the illness. I suppose I could have yelled and screamed at doctors who blew child off, but not really in my nature. And there is nothing more I could have done to search for a diagnosis--I spent untold hours researching and took child to doctor after doctor pursuing the problem--dozens of them.

Forgive me if I think it's a bit misplaced to pigeon hole me as an uninvolved mother who should be blaming her child's addiction on her poor parenting.

Maybe also don't pigeon hole people with fibromyalgia as suffering from a fake disorder?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Acknowledging the personal choice/responsibility is actually crucial to stopping the drug use. You know, the whole "want to get clean" part. Obviously when the addict is a teen with parents determined to excuse (enable) him it's an additional barrier. People like you are pathetic and selfish. The whole "it's not the addicts' fault!" Is actually a self-serving defense mechanism designed to protect your feelings.

It is a dangerous myth that only those "who want to get clean" can get clean. It's right along there with you have to hit rock bottom before you can get clean. Addiction is most easily treated in its earlier phases. If you wait for people to want to get clean or hit bottom there are almost no options left that work well. Court mandated rehab attendees have just as much success as voluntary rehab attendees.

It's not a myth, but common knowledge among families of addicts and alcoholics that someone who does not want to get sober for themselves will not stay sober.

This is a recipe for families and everyone else to just throw up their hands and give up. This is what leads parents to throw their addicted kids out of the house and make them a public charge. Before definitely giving up and living it time no addict fully and unreservedly wants to be clean.

The trick is to make addiction uncomfortable enough so that the addict has at least some small part of his brain that wants to get clean. Court mandated addicts may not want to get clean, but they'd rather do rehab than prison time, so some small part of their brain wants to be clean once they process that choice. Instilling and exploiting just the smallest shadow of a penumbra of a feeling that going clean may vaguely be better than the alternative can result in recovery success.

Many, many people attend their first NA meeting with just the vaguest idea that clean may be a better way or to get someone in their life off their back. They are not turned back and no one in NA would tell them they cannot get clean unless they really want to get clean.

Parents who say this are trying to justify why, scores of thousands of dollars late, their child's third rehab failed.

So you agree with me that addicts have to *want* to get clean. Make a personal choice to get clean. Okay then.

Dude, this isn't some kind of high school gotcha debate. Obviously it takes personal effort to beat addiction. But your simplistic view that "it's a personal choice" isn't what this poster is talking about. Believe it or not, the role of motivation in recovery is something that actual experts actually study. And it is much more complicated than saying "it's a personal choice." It takes support from others, which takes tax dollars, which takes investment by society. Not just "personal choice."

Ah tax dollars. Yes.

You've got kids who are looking to get high, they use the wrong drug that happens to be really addictive, boom. Tax dollars please!

right well, thanks for clarifying your agenda, then. addiction = personal failing = just let them die.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

Well, that's good, I guess.

Right, like who among did not make what in retrospect were some really bad choices when we were teens and in college? There really is nothing that happened during that period about which you do not say to yourself, "What was I thinking?" Making bad choices and then realizing the consequences you lacked foresight to see when you made them is actually part of becoming an adult. Too bad that when it's oxy it can have such devastating consequences.

Actually, (I'm the PP you are responding to) this is the sort of discussion we should be having - yes, kids make BAD decisions sometimes and it is up to us to help them avoid these mistakes. Is it something parents can control 100%? Obviously not and obviously this is a distressing thing for us parents. But making up self-serving lies about how it's not your kids' fault or infantilizing them to the point of comparing to toddlers and wall sockets are just tricks you do to make yourself feel better. Face it, teenagers have to seek out dealers and opportunities to use - they are making an effort to get high. No one is holding them down and shoving a needle into their arms.

So what's your next step? The REAL meaning behind your statement is that you want parents to excoriate their own children as worthless addicts. What do you think this kind of punitive orientation is going to help with, exactly? Personally I don't care how a parent explains their child's situation to themselves, as long as they support their child in getting treatment. Why is it SO important to you that parents make a confession of their/their children's moral failing? Again NOBODY DISPUTES that addicts make a conscious choice to use drugs. We know that. You're caught up in the starting point that everyone has moved past ... and this says volumes more about you than the issues.

Your personal insults and defensiveness says way more about you than me.

You don't think acknowledging realities behind addiction - especially when talking about the personal choices involved - is helpful to overcoming the problem? Instead you'll want to shout everyone else down - blame the government, blame the schools, anything but your kid's poor decision making (and what this really means is blaming yourself)? You think this is helpful instead? Go right ahead. I'm sure your denial and inability to deal with problems head on had nothing to do with your kid getting involved with drugs.

Whoa! Where did PP say she was blaming government or schools? She is just saying trying to ascribe blame is unhelpful and does nothing to address how parents should help an addict child.

You haven't read the whole thread then.

It's mind boggling that something as simple as acknowledging personal responsibility when you go out, buy drugs, and stick these said drugs into yourself for fun is something so vehemently rejected.

You people are unbelievable.

it's mindboggling that you can't accept that NOBODY HAS ARGUED THERE IS NO PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY involved. I'm just saying that that's not the end of the story in terms of preventing and treating addiction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

Well, that's good, I guess.

Right, like who among did not make what in retrospect were some really bad choices when we were teens and in college? There really is nothing that happened during that period about which you do not say to yourself, "What was I thinking?" Making bad choices and then realizing the consequences you lacked foresight to see when you made them is actually part of becoming an adult. Too bad that when it's oxy it can have such devastating consequences.

Actually, (I'm the PP you are responding to) this is the sort of discussion we should be having - yes, kids make BAD decisions sometimes and it is up to us to help them avoid these mistakes. Is it something parents can control 100%? Obviously not and obviously this is a distressing thing for us parents. But making up self-serving lies about how it's not your kids' fault or infantilizing them to the point of comparing to toddlers and wall sockets are just tricks you do to make yourself feel better. Face it, teenagers have to seek out dealers and opportunities to use - they are making an effort to get high. No one is holding them down and shoving a needle into their arms.

Agree with this. I absolutely sympathize with parents of teenage addicts and don't necessarily think it is the parents' fault, per se (although in many cases, I do think the parents could and should have done more. But not all cases). I have NO problem with someone saying "My kid was a good kid who made a stupid decision, and the price he's paying feels much higher than it should be." I get that. But acting as if your child is innocent, blameless, and a victim - nope. Not doing anyone any favors, him especially

Straw man. I don't see any parent of an addicted child claiming their child was blameless. I do seem them correctly pointing out environmental contributors to the addiction (legal prescriptions, the highly addictive nature of the drug, actual brain-based differences that make some people more prone to addiction). But you moralists are so caught up in blaming that you can't stand to hear that sometimes even if people weak, they still deserve society's help. Parents must give JUST the right note of contrition before they're deserving of your concern. Nope. Not your business.

It is my business, actually, if they're going to try and convince me that their child's addiction is entirely a product of everything else EXCEPT their child's shortcoming or poor decision-making, because their child was a complete victim who had no control over the situation whatsoever. Go upthread and you will see exactly this.

Who made that argument? Why do you care so much how a parent frames their child's addiction? Why does it bother you so much that something in addition to personal responsibility or decision making may be at play?

The lady with the child with chronic pain, for example. But several others as well. And, because addicts are bad for all of society...and especially when it's a teen or young adult addict I think the family's involvement in preventing, mitigating, dealing with, and solving the problem are huge - and it's clear that people with the adoremenrioned attitudes are not stepping up to do so

Is it clear? How do you know what their attitude is? Can you point me to peer-reviewed research that shows that being insufficiently guilt-ridden and blaming helps prevent and overcome addiction?

Uhhh, because an important element of achieving (and maintaining) recovery involves recognizing the element of personal choice involved - you control whether or not to dedicate yourself to getting clean and taking the necessary steps, you control whether or not to set yourself up for failure or success, you control whether or not you turn back to those drugs a month down the line when an urge hits. And that's not going to happen when your own parents are telling you you're an innocent and a victim of your circumstances.
See, e.g., common sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The lady with the child with chronic pain, for example. But several others as well. And, because addicts are bad for all of society...and especially when it's a teen or young adult addict I think the family's involvement in preventing, mitigating, dealing with, and solving the problem are huge - and it's clear that people with the adoremenrioned attitudes are not stepping up to do so

So here's the lady with the chronic pain child.

Do I blame doctors for not taking the pain seriously? Yes I do. Do I blame them for saying it was all in her head after a one minute examination? Yes I do. Because if they had taken it seriously pain relief would not have been an issue because they would have been addressing it. Do I blame doctors for child making bizarre choice to self medicate with heroin when child didn't even drink (and still doesn't to this day)? No. However, doctors need to understand that when they deny a child's pain they are putting that child at risk of illegal drug use.

Guess what the major factor was in child's recovery? A doctor who actually spent time examining child and made a diagnosis--and a real disorder, not something like fibromyalgia. There is nothing I could have done to prevent the illness. I suppose I could have yelled and screamed at doctors who blew child off, but not really in my nature. And there is nothing more I could have done to search for a diagnosis--I spent untold hours researching and took child to doctor after doctor pursuing the problem--dozens of them.

Forgive me if I think it's a bit misplaced to pigeon hole me as an uninvolved mother who should be blaming her child's addiction on her poor parenting.

I think people misunderstand me. Having an addicted kid doesn't necessarily mean you're a poor parent. My point is that if you are unable to acknowledge that your kid had responsibility in becoming addicted, maybe you're actually trying to absolve yourself/your parenting. THAT is my point.

Should you, the parent of an addicted individual, blame yourself? Well, as many have said, that's probably unhelpful as a thought to carry around. Even if you suspect it is true, you should acknowledge it and move on.

The problem is many parents avoid this thought all together by seeking to externalize blame - everyone else but themselves and their addicted kid. It's a denial-blame game where nothing is their fault or the fault of their kids.

Why does this matter? Because I think it leads to perverse consequences. Anytime you're delusional about the cause of something you want to prevent...well, it doesn't take a genius to deduce that maybe you won't find the solution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The lady with the child with chronic pain, for example. But several others as well. And, because addicts are bad for all of society...and especially when it's a teen or young adult addict I think the family's involvement in preventing, mitigating, dealing with, and solving the problem are huge - and it's clear that people with the adoremenrioned attitudes are not stepping up to do so

So here's the lady with the chronic pain child.

Do I blame doctors for not taking the pain seriously? Yes I do. Do I blame them for saying it was all in her head after a one minute examination? Yes I do. Because if they had taken it seriously pain relief would not have been an issue because they would have been addressing it. Do I blame doctors for child making bizarre choice to self medicate with heroin when child didn't even drink (and still doesn't to this day)? No. However, doctors need to understand that when they deny a child's pain they are putting that child at risk of illegal drug use.

Guess what the major factor was in child's recovery? A doctor who actually spent time examining child and made a diagnosis--and a real disorder, not something like fibromyalgia. There is nothing I could have done to prevent the illness. I suppose I could have yelled and screamed at doctors who blew child off, but not really in my nature. And there is nothing more I could have done to search for a diagnosis--I spent untold hours researching and took child to doctor after doctor pursuing the problem--dozens of them.

Forgive me if I think it's a bit misplaced to pigeon hole me as an uninvolved mother who should be blaming her child's addiction on her poor parenting.

Ha f*ck you, wow.

+1. Nice selective (delusional) reasoning you have there

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Acknowledging the personal choice/responsibility is actually crucial to stopping the drug use. You know, the whole "want to get clean" part. Obviously when the addict is a teen with parents determined to excuse (enable) him it's an additional barrier. People like you are pathetic and selfish. The whole "it's not the addicts' fault!" Is actually a self-serving defense mechanism designed to protect your feelings.

It is a dangerous myth that only those "who want to get clean" can get clean. It's right along there with you have to hit rock bottom before you can get clean. Addiction is most easily treated in its earlier phases. If you wait for people to want to get clean or hit bottom there are almost no options left that work well. Court mandated rehab attendees have just as much success as voluntary rehab attendees.

It's not a myth, but common knowledge among families of addicts and alcoholics that someone who does not want to get sober for themselves will not stay sober.

This is a recipe for families and everyone else to just throw up their hands and give up. This is what leads parents to throw their addicted kids out of the house and make them a public charge. Before definitely giving up and living it time no addict fully and unreservedly wants to be clean.

The trick is to make addiction uncomfortable enough so that the addict has at least some small part of his brain that wants to get clean. Court mandated addicts may not want to get clean, but they'd rather do rehab than prison time, so some small part of their brain wants to be clean once they process that choice. Instilling and exploiting just the smallest shadow of a penumbra of a feeling that going clean may vaguely be better than the alternative can result in recovery success.

Many, many people attend their first NA meeting with just the vaguest idea that clean may be a better way or to get someone in their life off their back. They are not turned back and no one in NA would tell them they cannot get clean unless they really want to get clean.

Parents who say this are trying to justify why, scores of thousands of dollars late, their child's third rehab failed.

So you agree with me that addicts have to *want* to get clean. Make a personal choice to get clean. Okay then.

Dude, this isn't some kind of high school gotcha debate. Obviously it takes personal effort to beat addiction. But your simplistic view that "it's a personal choice" isn't what this poster is talking about. Believe it or not, the role of motivation in recovery is something that actual experts actually study. And it is much more complicated than saying "it's a personal choice." It takes support from others, which takes tax dollars, which takes investment by society. Not just "personal choice."

Ah tax dollars. Yes.

You've got kids who are looking to get high, they use the wrong drug that happens to be really addictive, boom. Tax dollars please!

right well, thanks for clarifying your agenda, then. addiction = personal failing = just let them die.

Oh, you're one of those people who thinks other people should pay for your problems, and if they don't, they are horrible people? Awesome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

Well, that's good, I guess.

Right, like who among did not make what in retrospect were some really bad choices when we were teens and in college? There really is nothing that happened during that period about which you do not say to yourself, "What was I thinking?" Making bad choices and then realizing the consequences you lacked foresight to see when you made them is actually part of becoming an adult. Too bad that when it's oxy it can have such devastating consequences.

Actually, (I'm the PP you are responding to) this is the sort of discussion we should be having - yes, kids make BAD decisions sometimes and it is up to us to help them avoid these mistakes. Is it something parents can control 100%? Obviously not and obviously this is a distressing thing for us parents. But making up self-serving lies about how it's not your kids' fault or infantilizing them to the point of comparing to toddlers and wall sockets are just tricks you do to make yourself feel better. Face it, teenagers have to seek out dealers and opportunities to use - they are making an effort to get high. No one is holding them down and shoving a needle into their arms.

Agree with this. I absolutely sympathize with parents of teenage addicts and don't necessarily think it is the parents' fault, per se (although in many cases, I do think the parents could and should have done more. But not all cases). I have NO problem with someone saying "My kid was a good kid who made a stupid decision, and the price he's paying feels much higher than it should be." I get that. But acting as if your child is innocent, blameless, and a victim - nope. Not doing anyone any favors, him especially

Straw man. I don't see any parent of an addicted child claiming their child was blameless. I do seem them correctly pointing out environmental contributors to the addiction (legal prescriptions, the highly addictive nature of the drug, actual brain-based differences that make some people more prone to addiction). But you moralists are so caught up in blaming that you can't stand to hear that sometimes even if people weak, they still deserve society's help. Parents must give JUST the right note of contrition before they're deserving of your concern. Nope. Not your business.

It is my business, actually, if they're going to try and convince me that their child's addiction is entirely a product of everything else EXCEPT their child's shortcoming or poor decision-making, because their child was a complete victim who had no control over the situation whatsoever. Go upthread and you will see exactly this.

Who made that argument? Why do you care so much how a parent frames their child's addiction? Why does it bother you so much that something in addition to personal responsibility or decision making may be at play?

The lady with the child with chronic pain, for example. But several others as well. And, because addicts are bad for all of society...and especially when it's a teen or young adult addict I think the family's involvement in preventing, mitigating, dealing with, and solving the problem are huge - and it's clear that people with the adoremenrioned attitudes are not stepping up to do so

Is it clear? How do you know what their attitude is? Can you point me to peer-reviewed research that shows that being insufficiently guilt-ridden and blaming helps prevent and overcome addiction?

Uhhh, because an important element of achieving (and maintaining) recovery involves recognizing the element of personal choice involved - you control whether or not to dedicate yourself to getting clean and taking the necessary steps, you control whether or not to set yourself up for failure or success, you control whether or not you turn back to those drugs a month down the line when an urge hits. And that's not going to happen when your own parents are telling you you're an innocent and a victim of your circumstances.
See, e.g., common sense.

Again, you're getting yourself all roiled up in imagined scenarios about how you think these parents approach recovery. I seriously doubt they're telling their kids "Honey, you're innocent, you just sit there and don't lift a finger to recover." You're creating some kind of bizarre and baseless fantasy about a really difficult situation (maybe the most difficult a parent can face short of child death) for your own need to blame addicts and your parents. I wonder why. BTW what's your viewpoint on Methadone and other maintainence drugs? Do you think they're bad because they reduce the "personal responsibility" needed to recover?

[Anonymous]

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Acknowledging the personal choice/responsibility is actually crucial to stopping the drug use. You know, the whole "want to get clean" part. Obviously when the addict is a teen with parents determined to excuse (enable) him it's an additional barrier. People like you are pathetic and selfish. The whole "it's not the addicts' fault!" Is actually a self-serving defense mechanism designed to protect your feelings.

It is a dangerous myth that only those "who want to get clean" can get clean. It's right along there with you have to hit rock bottom before you can get clean. Addiction is most easily treated in its earlier phases. If you wait for people to want to get clean or hit bottom there are almost no options left that work well. Court mandated rehab attendees have just as much success as voluntary rehab attendees.

It's not a myth, but common knowledge among families of addicts and alcoholics that someone who does not want to get sober for themselves will not stay sober.

This is a recipe for families and everyone else to just throw up their hands and give up. This is what leads parents to throw their addicted kids out of the house and make them a public charge. Before definitely giving up and living it time no addict fully and unreservedly wants to be clean.

The trick is to make addiction uncomfortable enough so that the addict has at least some small part of his brain that wants to get clean. Court mandated addicts may not want to get clean, but they'd rather do rehab than prison time, so some small part of their brain wants to be clean once they process that choice. Instilling and exploiting just the smallest shadow of a penumbra of a feeling that going clean may vaguely be better than the alternative can result in recovery success.

Many, many people attend their first NA meeting with just the vaguest idea that clean may be a better way or to get someone in their life off their back. They are not turned back and no one in NA would tell them they cannot get clean unless they really want to get clean.

Parents who say this are trying to justify why, scores of thousands of dollars late, their child's third rehab failed.

So you agree with me that addicts have to *want* to get clean. Make a personal choice to get clean. Okay then.

Dude, this isn't some kind of high school gotcha debate. Obviously it takes personal effort to beat addiction. But your simplistic view that "it's a personal choice" isn't what this poster is talking about. Believe it or not, the role of motivation in recovery is something that actual experts actually study. And it is much more complicated than saying "it's a personal choice." It takes support from others, which takes tax dollars, which takes investment by society. Not just "personal choice."

Ah tax dollars. Yes.

You've got kids who are looking to get high, they use the wrong drug that happens to be really addictive, boom. Tax dollars please!

right well, thanks for clarifying your agenda, then. addiction = personal failing = just let them die.

Oh, you're one of those people who thinks other people should pay for your problems, and if they don't, they are horrible people? Awesome.

Yes, I do think you're a horrible person if you don't think that drug addicts should get help affording treatment. In fact, I do.

[Anonymous]

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Again, what does your "faulting the kid" really do here? Do you realize how ignorant you are about addiction? If it were as easy as the kid waking up and saying "I am not going to do drugs anymore," then there wouldn't be a drug problem. The personal responsibility required to kick an addiction is nothing at all like the personal responsibility required to say, study for a final.

It makes that PP feel better about themselves, for some reason. That's what it does.

It actually does. I'm frankly sick of people blaming everyone else for their problems. Acknowledge that you raised a kid who made bad choices and is now an addict. That doesn't mean he/she doesn't deserve help, doesn't deserve to get better, but it does mean you stop living in denial and making everyone else to blame so you can feel better about yourself.

Well, that's good, I guess.

Right, like who among did not make what in retrospect were some really bad choices when we were teens and in college? There really is nothing that happened during that period about which you do not say to yourself, "What was I thinking?" Making bad choices and then realizing the consequences you lacked foresight to see when you made them is actually part of becoming an adult. Too bad that when it's oxy it can have such devastating consequences.

Actually, (I'm the PP you are responding to) this is the sort of discussion we should be having - yes, kids make BAD decisions sometimes and it is up to us to help them avoid these mistakes. Is it something parents can control 100%? Obviously not and obviously this is a distressing thing for us parents. But making up self-serving lies about how it's not your kids' fault or infantilizing them to the point of comparing to toddlers and wall sockets are just tricks you do to make yourself feel better. Face it, teenagers have to seek out dealers and opportunities to use - they are making an effort to get high. No one is holding them down and shoving a needle into their arms.

So what's your next step? The REAL meaning behind your statement is that you want parents to excoriate their own children as worthless addicts. What do you think this kind of punitive orientation is going to help with, exactly? Personally I don't care how a parent explains their child's situation to themselves, as long as they support their child in getting treatment. Why is it SO important to you that parents make a confession of their/their children's moral failing? Again NOBODY DISPUTES that addicts make a conscious choice to use drugs. We know that. You're caught up in the starting point that everyone has moved past ... and this says volumes more about you than the issues.

Your personal insults and defensiveness says way more about you than me.

You don't think acknowledging realities behind addiction - especially when talking about the personal choices involved - is helpful to overcoming the problem? Instead you'll want to shout everyone else down - blame the government, blame the schools, anything but your kid's poor decision making (and what this really means is blaming yourself)? You think this is helpful instead? Go right ahead. I'm sure your denial and inability to deal with problems head on had nothing to do with your kid getting involved with drugs.

Whoa! Where did PP say she was blaming government or schools? She is just saying trying to ascribe blame is unhelpful and does nothing to address how parents should help an addict child.

You haven't read the whole thread then.

It's mind boggling that something as simple as acknowledging personal responsibility when you go out, buy drugs, and stick these said drugs into yourself for fun is something so vehemently rejected.

You people are unbelievable.

it's mindboggling that you can't accept that NOBODY HAS ARGUED THERE IS NO PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY involved. I'm just saying that that's not the end of the story in terms of preventing and treating addiction.

1. People have argued/implied that kids do not bear personal responsibility. Read the thread.

2. No one said accepting personal responsibility in some cases of addiction was the end story in terms of prevention or treatment. But I will argue that it is a crucial element.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Acknowledging the personal choice/responsibility is actually crucial to stopping the drug use. You know, the whole "want to get clean" part. Obviously when the addict is a teen with parents determined to excuse (enable) him it's an additional barrier. People like you are pathetic and selfish. The whole "it's not the addicts' fault!" Is actually a self-serving defense mechanism designed to protect your feelings.

It is a dangerous myth that only those "who want to get clean" can get clean. It's right along there with you have to hit rock bottom before you can get clean. Addiction is most easily treated in its earlier phases. If you wait for people to want to get clean or hit bottom there are almost no options left that work well. Court mandated rehab attendees have just as much success as voluntary rehab attendees.

It's not a myth, but common knowledge among families of addicts and alcoholics that someone who does not want to get sober for themselves will not stay sober.

This is a recipe for families and everyone else to just throw up their hands and give up. This is what leads parents to throw their addicted kids out of the house and make them a public charge. Before definitely giving up and living it time no addict fully and unreservedly wants to be clean.

The trick is to make addiction uncomfortable enough so that the addict has at least some small part of his brain that wants to get clean. Court mandated addicts may not want to get clean, but they'd rather do rehab than prison time, so some small part of their brain wants to be clean once they process that choice. Instilling and exploiting just the smallest shadow of a penumbra of a feeling that going clean may vaguely be better than the alternative can result in recovery success.

Many, many people attend their first NA meeting with just the vaguest idea that clean may be a better way or to get someone in their life off their back. They are not turned back and no one in NA would tell them they cannot get clean unless they really want to get clean.

Parents who say this are trying to justify why, scores of thousands of dollars late, their child's third rehab failed.

So you agree with me that addicts have to *want* to get clean. Make a personal choice to get clean. Okay then.

Dude, this isn't some kind of high school gotcha debate. Obviously it takes personal effort to beat addiction. But your simplistic view that "it's a personal choice" isn't what this poster is talking about. Believe it or not, the role of motivation in recovery is something that actual experts actually study. And it is much more complicated than saying "it's a personal choice." It takes support from others, which takes tax dollars, which takes investment by society. Not just "personal choice."

Ah tax dollars. Yes.

You've got kids who are looking to get high, they use the wrong drug that happens to be really addictive, boom. Tax dollars please!

right well, thanks for clarifying your agenda, then. addiction = personal failing = just let them die.

Oh, you're one of those people who thinks other people should pay for your problems, and if they don't, they are horrible people? Awesome.

Yes, I do think you're a horrible person if you don't think that drug addicts should get help affording treatment. In fact, I do.

Good, we can start by emptying your bank account into the nearest rehab center, since you're such a morally superior person.