Can we stop referring to households making $200 or 300K a year as "middle class"?

[Anonymous]

All you assholes complaining about being poor on 20k a year should go to africa and see people living on 20k every 10 years! take that!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All you assholes complaining about being poor on 20k a year should go to africa and see people living on 20k every 10 years! take that!

Honestly its not the lower income people complaining here on DCUM. Mostly its the higher income people. Take that.

[Anonymous]

This has been beaten to death. People in DC who make over $150k believe that that money should buy you certain things. It should buy you a house with an easy commute, good school district, ability to save for retirement and perhaps a vacation.

But it does not. Housing and childcare eat up much of the budget. Middle class can't live with a short commute. They have to live further out. Retirement is suspended by the need to pay for childcare. Vacations are more along ocean city rather than Aruba.

The DC middle class do not have the buying power that the rest of the countries middle class have. So we can argue about absolute dollars with regard to HHI, but middle class is about lifestyle. And $150k for a family of 4, does not buy a middle class lifestyle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't live in an 850K house, I live in a 600K 2 bedroom cape in south Arlington, on 1/6 of an acre, and commute 3 miles to the Metro because we live in an area that is as far as you can be in Arlington from either Orange or Blue. But our HHI is almost $300K, so apparently we are just one step away from Donald Trump.

No, you are not one step away from Donald Trump. But you are about as far from Donald Trump as you are from the true middle class. You are affluent, but not rich or wealthy. The affluent class is easily above the middle class and has choice of where to live, can fully fund retirement, saving for college, good schools for children (whether buying property in a good school district or private), savings and still have some disposable income (not necessarily a lot) leftover. The middle class has to make compromises in a lot of areas to get those same benefits. I'd say that the the middle class makes about $75-150K, which is about the 25th to 75th percentile of HHI, essentially the middle of the earning curve. The affluent is probably about the 76th percentile to the 99th percentile or about $150-400K. The rich are the 1% which in this area is roughly over 400K.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This has been beaten to death. People in DC who make over $150k believe that that money should buy you certain things. It should buy you a house with an easy commute, good school district, ability to save for retirement and perhaps a vacation.

But it does not. Housing and childcare eat up much of the budget. Middle class can't live with a short commute. They have to live further out. Retirement is suspended by the need to pay for childcare. Vacations are more along ocean city rather than Aruba.

The DC middle class do not have the buying power that the rest of the countries middle class have. So we can argue about absolute dollars with regard to HHI, but middle class is about lifestyle. And $150k for a family of 4, does not buy a middle class lifestyle.

Damn and we have all these things on less than 150k. Interesting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This has been beaten to death. People in DC who make over $150k believe that that money should buy you certain things. It should buy you a house with an easy commute, good school district, ability to save for retirement and perhaps a vacation.

But it does not. Housing and childcare eat up much of the budget. Middle class can't live with a short commute. They have to live further out. Retirement is suspended by the need to pay for childcare. Vacations are more along ocean city rather than Aruba.

The DC middle class do not have the buying power that the rest of the countries middle class have. So we can argue about absolute dollars with regard to HHI, but middle class is about lifestyle. And $150k for a family of 4, does not buy a middle class lifestyle.

what does it buy if not middle class? lower class? confused.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't live in an 850K house, I live in a 600K 2 bedroom cape in south Arlington, on 1/6 of an acre, and commute 3 miles to the Metro because we live in an area that is as far as you can be in Arlington from either Orange or Blue. But our HHI is almost $300K, so apparently we are just one step away from Donald Trump.

No, you are not one step away from Donald Trump. But you are about as far from Donald Trump as you are from the true middle class. You are affluent, but not rich or wealthy. The affluent class is easily above the middle class and has choice of where to live, can fully fund retirement, saving for college, good schools for children (whether buying property in a good school district or private), savings and still have some disposable income (not necessarily a lot) leftover. The middle class has to make compromises in a lot of areas to get those same benefits. I'd say that the the middle class makes about $75-150K, which is about the 25th to 75th percentile of HHI, essentially the middle of the earning curve. The affluent is probably about the 76th percentile to the 99th percentile or about $150-400K. The rich are the 1% which in this area is roughly over 400K.

Well, of course this works if you add another category ("affluent"). But usually people say the categories are poor, working class, middle class, and rich, and pretty much anyone who supports their family with a job is going to put themselves in the "middle class" category.

[Anonymous]

Fine, but you're saying that choice and time (time not spent commuting) are what I'm spending my money on. Those aren't tangible luxuries, which are what people usually cite when they think of someone with a higher income ("you could just go to Starbucks less often" "you don't need to drive a Mercedes"). I don't go to Starbucks or drive a Mercedes, but I have a 30-minute commute. There is a big disconnect between how people perceive that income and what it actually buys you in a high cost of living area.

Well, yeah. A short commute definitely is a luxury in much of this area. And of course it's tangible - it's your house! Instead of the Mercedes and constant Starbucks, you chose to spend a high percentage of your income on a house. How is that not tangible? The argument that you, making $300k HHI and living in a close-in and therefore expensive house, are middle class but the person making the same $300k who had double your commute but less expensive house, and therefore can afford a Mercedes and Starbucks, is somehow not middle class is truly absurd.

And like others, I don't know what the fascination is with being considered middle class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the choice argument only works if these families could move to lower cost of living areas and still make that much. That usually isn't the case.

This.

I feel so sorry for those people who have no choice but to live in Chevy Chase or Great Falls. Must be tough.

It is. We bought a Chevy Chase home from family at a price what we would have paid in Damascus 15 years ago. They wanted the house to stay in the family and DH had just taken a job in a downtown nonprofit. That job is not transferrable to another place and we depend on Metro access to his work. We are the have-nots in the land of haves. Not all of us wanted to be exactly here, but life and jobs put us here.

THAT WAS A CHOICE YOU MADE - A CHOICE THAT A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I think that's incredibly depressing, although accurate for this area. Luxuries should be things like affording a cleaning service, driving a Lexus, taking a vacation to Europe every summer, owning a beach house, etc. Being able to send your kids to a good school (not necessarily a 10 on great schools, but one with decent test scores and not a high percentage of ESOL students) and living within 30 minutes of your job shouldn't be just for the upper middle class.


I agree with you 100%. I grew up in a mid-sized town and "luxuries" like good schools and decent commutes were normal amenities for the middle class. There are benefits to living in a place like DC, for example a lot of jobs and exposure to different cultures, but people in the middle class here do not live as well as people in the middle class in other, less expensive areas.

I hear this a lot on this website. I have lived in five different cities in my life--DC, one in the midwest, two on the West Coast, and one in Texas. In every one of these cities, the areas that had short commutes that also were zoned for what were considered good schools have been expensive--at least relative to the cost of the rest of the city. Of course the cost of living varies--but so do the wages.

My in-laws live in a rural area. They consider themselves middle class--by the standards of this website they would be considered lower income, but by the standards of median income/income percentile, they are solidly in the middle of the income distribution. They didn't really think about what schools are "good" or not. They just sent DH and his sisters to the school they were zoned for. It isn't like there is a whole lot of choice in rural areas. Parents don't pour over greatschools ratings or buy real estate based on school zones--it's just not something that crosses people's mind. My SIL lives in another town about an hour away from where they grew up, and also takes this approach to her kids' schools.

Where exactly are these areas where people "live so much better?"

I'm the PP who agreed 100% with the other PP. I grew up in Richmond (technically Henrico) and went to public school. We had a much bigger and nicer house (in a nicer neighborhood) than I have here in DC even though my husband and I make double what my parents make. I'm not saying you should feel sorry for me or anything, just that money simply doesn't go as far here. It's a trade off - many people who live here wouldn't want to live in Richmond (though it's a nice place IMO), so you pay more but get different benefits like I mentioned in my PP.

So I think the definition of what makes middle class differs by area. What is middle class? Is it being able to save a minimal amount, not live paycheck to paycheck all of the time? I think the definition is less about absolute numbers and more on your lifestyle.

The person describing high ESOL as a negative should be ashamed of him/herself. The pp saying lifestyle determines class is ridiculous...you don't get to decide for yourself what is the middle class definition. Grow up. Lifestyle is a choice - A.CHOICE!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:200k and can't afford a house I'd actually want to live in. I consider us solidly middle class.

And I expect you are typical of people who think they're middle class when they are clearly not. It's not enough to own a home, you have to own the perfect home, with at least one more bedroom than you need, a kitchen updated in the last 5 years to your exacting tastes, the right location, the right schools, etc etc etc.

Middle class means you compromise and you do without. Kids share a bedroom. The kitchen is 15 years old or more. The floors are carpeted, and the bathrooms look like your grandmas. And you live with that because you have other financial priorities - and you simply can't afford to renovate.

That is not a life I would choose to live.

I'm guessing in a home where kids are sharing bedrooms and carpet is 15 years old, the parents aren't making an income that involves advanced degrees. So they probably don't have student loans. And maybe mom doesn't work or took a few years off, so they weren't dropping 2-3k/month sending two kids to daycare. In a way, their income may go further than another more affluent dual income family.

I think the problem in the DC area is that there are so many well educated people who didn't work as hard as they did to live the lifestyle you described. And I don't think it's fair to claim these people are out of touch for wanting a decently nice house with good schools within 30 min.

And FWIW, I keep seeing Silver Spring thrown out as a great middle class area for Maryland. There really isn't an equivalent for those of us in NoVa. The typically middle class suburb people name is Burke, which is outside the beltway. Those of us with a bit more money can afford Fairfax, Oakton, or Vienna. Everything closer-in Virginia is getting out of reach. Even S. Arlington is starting to get really expensive.

OMG -- If there is old carpet and the kids share rooms the parents probably don't have advanced degrees. What a pompous ass

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All you assholes complaining about being poor on 20k a year should go to africa and see people living on 20k every 10 years! take that!

+20000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All you assholes complaining about being poor on 20k a MONTH should go to africa and see people living on 20k every 10 years! take that!

Fixed that for you

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All you assholes complaining about being poor on 20k a MONTH should go to africa and see people living on 20k every 10 years! take that!

Fixed that for you

better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't live in an 850K house, I live in a 600K 2 bedroom cape in south Arlington, on 1/6 of an acre, and commute 3 miles to the Metro because we live in an area that is as far as you can be in Arlington from either Orange or Blue. But our HHI is almost $300K, so apparently we are just one step away from Donald Trump.

No, you are not one step away from Donald Trump. But you are about as far from Donald Trump as you are from the true middle class. You are affluent, but not rich or wealthy. The affluent class is easily above the middle class and has choice of where to live, can fully fund retirement, saving for college, good schools for children (whether buying property in a good school district or private), savings and still have some disposable income (not necessarily a lot) leftover. The middle class has to make compromises in a lot of areas to get those same benefits. I'd say that the the middle class makes about $75-150K, which is about the 25th to 75th percentile of HHI, essentially the middle of the earning curve. The affluent is probably about the 76th percentile to the 99th percentile or about $150-400K. The rich are the 1% which in this area is roughly over 400K.

Well, of course this works if you add another category ("affluent"). But usually people say the categories are poor, working class, middle class, and rich, and pretty much anyone who supports their family with a job is going to put themselves in the "middle class" category.

Uh, upper-middle? Isn't that what half this argument was about- $300k folks preferring to be called middle rather than upper-middle?