Baby stealing approved in South Carolina!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:8:18 here -- It's not really relevant that Veronica is a citizen of the Cherokee Nation, according to the Supreme Court. But to the poster who is concerned about Veronica's self-identification as an adult, she is welcome to self-identify as white, hispanic, Cherokee, or anything. To be a CITIZEN of the Cherokee Nation, which includes certain benefits (monetary, etc.), then you need to qualify, which she does.

What more information do you need, PP?

Well, there you have it.

[Anonymous]

I don't care if this man is Native American
Wookie
or Jabba the Hut
He is that child's father and he has been fighting for her since she was an infant

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't care if this man is Native American
Wookie
or Jabba the Hut
He is that child's father and he has been fighting for her since she was an infant

I wonder what would have happened if the birth mother had changed her mind soon after signing the papers? Change of heart is meaningless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The whole situation is so sad for Veronica, and there is no doubt she will eventually return to the adoptive family. Equally upsetting is there is no doubt that the adoptive family will strip this little girl of both her true heritages. Hopefully, as she gets older she will diligently seek out who she is ethnically. That is something the adoptive family CANNOT take from her no matter how anyone tries to paint her.

Isn't her bio dad something like 1/32 Cherokee? Honestly, at some point, it's little ridiculous the degree to which someone's heritage is suddenly relevant. I hope Veronica finds an identity that is hers to seek out, hers to define, and nobody else's to decide for her.

Tell that to people who are Jewish. You may have little attachment to your heritage (most white Americans don't) but there are other nationalities where this is who they are...an identifier if you will. You may throw it around that it's meaningless but remember that many people (especially non-whites) take pride in their identities and refuse to and will not concur with you that someone's heritage is irrelevant/

I'm not a white American, though I am mixed/biracial. My own search about my backgrounds is my own - not my relatives from either side, not my parents, not some monolithic ethnic group (since that doesn't exist). I don't necessarily think that seeking out an identity is unimportant, but however anyone defines themselves isn't irrelevant - it's on an individual to decide for themselves. If Veronica grows up to decide that it's irrelevant, so be it. Lots of people of various heritages do. If she decides to embrace her minute fraction of Native American background, so be it. It would her decision alone. If she decides to embrace her Hispanic heritage, it's again her decision alone. If she embraces all or none of her multiple backgrounds, or some and not others, or changes her mind at different times in her life, that's Veronica's choice alone.

I feel like there's some weird ownership/property thing going on - the Cherokee Nation doesn't get to "claim" Veronica, or decide for her, that she's one of them. That's her decision to make when she's older.

I can't even comment as you apparently haven't even picked up a history book or attempted to even understand why 'she's one of them'. This is always the problem...people who go on without obtaining facts to argue their point. Please pick up a history book, any history book, on Native Americans and then debate your point. But only those who, like yourself, have not bothered to even read Cherokee or Native American laws or treaties with the American government will always go by what they "think" is right, not fact.

Native Americans are more than just a figurehead for a football team.

+one million!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The whole situation is so sad for Veronica, and there is no doubt she will eventually return to the adoptive family. Equally upsetting is there is no doubt that the adoptive family will strip this little girl of both her true heritages. Hopefully, as she gets older she will diligently seek out who she is ethnically. That is something the adoptive family CANNOT take from her no matter how anyone tries to paint her.

Isn't her bio dad something like 1/32 Cherokee? Honestly, at some point, it's little ridiculous the degree to which someone's heritage is suddenly relevant. I hope Veronica finds an identity that is hers to seek out, hers to define, and nobody else's to decide for her.

Tell that to people who are Jewish. You may have little attachment to your heritage (most white Americans don't) but there are other nationalities where this is who they are...an identifier if you will. You may throw it around that it's meaningless but remember that many people (especially non-whites) take pride in their identities and refuse to and will not concur with you that someone's heritage is irrelevant/

I'm not a white American, though I am mixed/biracial. My own search about my backgrounds is my own - not my relatives from either side, not my parents, not some monolithic ethnic group (since that doesn't exist). I don't necessarily think that seeking out an identity is unimportant, but however anyone defines themselves isn't irrelevant - it's on an individual to decide for themselves. If Veronica grows up to decide that it's irrelevant, so be it. Lots of people of various heritages do. If she decides to embrace her minute fraction of Native American background, so be it. It would her decision alone. If she decides to embrace her Hispanic heritage, it's again her decision alone. If she embraces all or none of her multiple backgrounds, or some and not others, or changes her mind at different times in her life, that's Veronica's choice alone.

I feel like there's some weird ownership/property thing going on - the Cherokee Nation doesn't get to "claim" Veronica, or decide for her, that she's one of them. That's her decision to make when she's older.

I can't even comment as you apparently haven't even picked up a history book or attempted to even understand why 'she's one of them'. This is always the problem...people who go on without obtaining facts to argue their point. Please pick up a history book, any history book, on Native Americans and then debate your point. But only those who, like yourself, have not bothered to even read Cherokee or Native American laws or treaties with the American government will always go by what they "think" is right, not fact.

Native Americans are more than just a figurehead for a football team.

So Veronica herself, or people of Native American descent don't get to decide for themselves about their personal level of belonging? Seriously? Can you give me an exact citation for themselves?

Well, you are out you aren't. You don't choose your level of belonging.

http://www.cherokee.org/Services/TribalCitizenship/Citizenship.aspx

Can you point directly to a citation where "you don't choose your level of belonging?" The links you post discuss application *INTO* the Cherokee Nation. They don't discuss basically someone having x-amount of ancestry being forbidden from "opting out" of belonging. From that link, there doesn't seem to be anything indicating that people aren't allowed to choose not to be a part of or not individually recognize their ancestry.

Why don't you just contact the Bureau of Indian Affairs for definitive information instead of battling it out here? That's like trying to debate whether you think it should be black, African-American, Negro, Colored, biracial, etc. People define themselves within their communities. Like it or leave it. They have the last say.

Of course people define themselves - that's exactly what I've been saying. [b]But do you not think people should be allowed to choose their own community/communities? [b]

Absolutely. We live in communities now but this is different. Some communities are integrated, some not. We are talking about an ethnic group that has rules and regs whose sole purpose is the continuation of the race and to make sure that people who are of Cherokee or any Indian descent are welcomed to be a part of the historical legacy. Sort of like the 'one-drop' rule with African-Americans which the U.S. government said if you have one drop of black blood (doesn't matter how fair skinned you are), you are black.

I'm not sure why the Native American legacy is such an issue. A previous poster mentioned Jewish ethnicity. Jews has maintained this ideology since time immemoriam since they were always being annihilated.

I don't think Veronica's Native American legacy is "such an issue," particularly since the bio father signed off on his paternal rights. That's exactly what the SCOTUS decided.

We both agree that people ought to have dominion over deciding where they belong, presumably being more capable of doing this when they're older. We seem to be on the same page there. Whatever groups or communities Veronica (or anyone, really) decides to opt-in or opt-out of belong to her, and only her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:8:18 here -- It's not really relevant that Veronica is a citizen of the Cherokee Nation, according to the Supreme Court. But to the poster who is concerned about Veronica's self-identification as an adult, she is welcome to self-identify as white, hispanic, Cherokee, or anything. To be a CITIZEN of the Cherokee Nation, which includes certain benefits (monetary, etc.), then you need to qualify, which she does.

What more information do you need, PP?

The question is, to what degree does Veronica get to choose her own citizenship of the Cherokee Nation? I don't think anyone's debating whether or not she "qualifies," but the extent to which other people are making lifelong decisions for her and about her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't care if this man is Native American
Wookie
or Jabba the Hut
He is that child's father and he has been fighting for her since she was an infant

I wonder what would have happened if the birth mother had changed her mind soon after signing the papers? Change of heart is meaningless.

In most adoptions you do have a period in which you can change your mind, which is why many people are hesitant to adopt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The whole situation is so sad for Veronica, and there is no doubt she will eventually return to the adoptive family. Equally upsetting is there is no doubt that the adoptive family will strip this little girl of both her true heritages. Hopefully, as she gets older she will diligently seek out who she is ethnically. That is something the adoptive family CANNOT take from her no matter how anyone tries to paint her.

Isn't her bio dad something like 1/32 Cherokee? Honestly, at some point, it's little ridiculous the degree to which someone's heritage is suddenly relevant. I hope Veronica finds an identity that is hers to seek out, hers to define, and nobody else's to decide for her.

Tell that to people who are Jewish. You may have little attachment to your heritage (most white Americans don't) but there are other nationalities where this is who they are...an identifier if you will. You may throw it around that it's meaningless but remember that many people (especially non-whites) take pride in their identities and refuse to and will not concur with you that someone's heritage is irrelevant/

I'm not a white American, though I am mixed/biracial. My own search about my backgrounds is my own - not my relatives from either side, not my parents, not some monolithic ethnic group (since that doesn't exist). I don't necessarily think that seeking out an identity is unimportant, but however anyone defines themselves isn't irrelevant - it's on an individual to decide for themselves. If Veronica grows up to decide that it's irrelevant, so be it. Lots of people of various heritages do. If she decides to embrace her minute fraction of Native American background, so be it. It would her decision alone. If she decides to embrace her Hispanic heritage, it's again her decision alone. If she embraces all or none of her multiple backgrounds, or some and not others, or changes her mind at different times in her life, that's Veronica's choice alone.

I feel like there's some weird ownership/property thing going on - the Cherokee Nation doesn't get to "claim" Veronica, or decide for her, that she's one of them. That's her decision to make when she's older.

I can't even comment as you apparently haven't even picked up a history book or attempted to even understand why 'she's one of them'. This is always the problem...people who go on without obtaining facts to argue their point. Please pick up a history book, any history book, on Native Americans and then debate your point. But only those who, like yourself, have not bothered to even read Cherokee or Native American laws or treaties with the American government will always go by what they "think" is right, not fact.

Native Americans are more than just a figurehead for a football team.

So Veronica herself, or people of Native American descent don't get to decide for themselves about their personal level of belonging? Seriously? Can you give me an exact citation for themselves?

Well, you are out you aren't. You don't choose your level of belonging.

http://www.cherokee.org/Services/TribalCitizenship/Citizenship.aspx

Can you point directly to a citation where "you don't choose your level of belonging?" The links you post discuss application *INTO* the Cherokee Nation. They don't discuss basically someone having x-amount of ancestry being forbidden from "opting out" of belonging. From that link, there doesn't seem to be anything indicating that people aren't allowed to choose not to be a part of or not individually recognize their ancestry.

Why don't you just contact the Bureau of Indian Affairs for definitive information instead of battling it out here? That's like trying to debate whether you think it should be black, African-American, Negro, Colored, biracial, etc. People define themselves within their communities. Like it or leave it. They have the last say.

Of course people define themselves - that's exactly what I've been saying. But do you not think people should be allowed to choose their own community/communities? [b]

Absolutely. We live in communities now but this is different. Some communities are integrated, some not. We are talking about an ethnic group that has rules and regs whose sole purpose is the continuation of the race and to make sure that people who are of Cherokee or any Indian descent are welcomed to be a part of the historical legacy. Sort of like the 'one-drop' rule with African-Americans which the U.S. government said if you have one drop of black blood (doesn't matter how fair skinned you are), you are black.

I'm not sure why the Native American legacy is such an issue. A previous poster mentioned Jewish ethnicity. Jews has maintained this ideology since time immemoriam since they were always being annihilated.

I don't think Veronica's Native American legacy is "such an issue," particularly since the bio father signed off on his paternal rights. That's exactly what the SCOTUS decided.

We both agree that people ought to have dominion over deciding where they belong, presumably being more capable of doing this when they're older. We seem to be on the same page there. [b]Whatever groups or communities Veronica (or anyone, really) decides to opt-in or opt-out of belong to her, and only her.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on that point. However, ethnically, she is and will be of Cherokee and Hispanic heritage. That will not change even if she decides to live with Australian aborigines on the moon or with her white adopted parents.

And for the record, SCOTUS doesn't always get it right. History shows that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:8:18 here -- It's not really relevant that Veronica is a citizen of the Cherokee Nation, according to the Supreme Court. But to the poster who is concerned about Veronica's self-identification as an adult, she is welcome to self-identify as white, hispanic, Cherokee, or anything. To be a CITIZEN of the Cherokee Nation, which includes certain benefits (monetary, etc.), then you need to qualify, which she does.

What more information do you need, PP?

The question is, to what degree does Veronica get to choose her own citizenship of the Cherokee Nation? I don't think anyone's debating whether or not she "qualifies," but the extent to which other people are making lifelong decisions for her and about her.

She will ultimately make the decision if she wants to be "officially" on the Cherokee Nation roles. But it does not change who she is. I can live in a 100% white community and be the only Hispanic but I'm still Hispanic. I can call myself white by choice but I'm still Hispanic, look Hispanic, and defined by you (generally speaking) as Hispanic.

No matter how you color it (pun intended), I'm still Hispanic but an American citizen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:8:18 here -- It's not really relevant that Veronica is a citizen of the Cherokee Nation, according to the Supreme Court. But to the poster who is concerned about Veronica's self-identification as an adult, she is welcome to self-identify as white, hispanic, Cherokee, or anything. To be a CITIZEN of the Cherokee Nation, which includes certain benefits (monetary, etc.), then you need to qualify, which she does.

What more information do you need, PP?

The question is, to what degree does Veronica get to choose her own citizenship of the Cherokee Nation? I don't think anyone's debating whether or not she "qualifies," but the extent to which other people are making lifelong decisions for her and about her.

She will ultimately make the decision if she wants to be "officially" on the Cherokee Nation roles. But it does not change who she is. I can live in a 100% white community and be the only Hispanic but I'm still Hispanic. I can call myself white by choice but I'm still Hispanic, look Hispanic, and defined by you (generally speaking) as Hispanic.

No matter how you color it (pun intended), I'm still Hispanic but an American citizen.

PP again. If the white adopted family has any consideration for the legacy of this child, I would hope that they would place her on the Cherokee rolls. All Cherokees are American citizens, and let's not forget that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In parenting you cannot just change your mind and suddenly decide you want your kid. The girl belongs with the family that always wanted her and tended to her during the most trying and difficult times (infancy).

Wrong. You don't get to keep someone else's kid because you think you want them more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In parenting you cannot just change your mind and suddenly decide you want your kid. The girl belongs with the family that always wanted her and tended to her during the most trying and difficult times (infancy).

Wrong. You don't get to keep someone else's kid because you think you want them more.

Seriously!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In parenting you cannot just change your mind and suddenly decide you want your kid. The girl belongs with the family that always wanted her and tended to her during the most trying and difficult times (infancy).

Wrong. You don't get to keep someone else's kid because you think you want them more.

Seriously!

Plus these people had her during infancy because they fought the bio-dad who wanted her!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In parenting you cannot just change your mind and suddenly decide you want your kid. The girl belongs with the family that always wanted her and tended to her during the most trying and difficult times (infancy).

Wrong. You don't get to keep someone else's kid because you think you want them more.

Seriously!

Plus these people had her during infancy because they fought the bio-dad who wanted her!

The arrogance is quite astounding. I couldn't imagine wanting to adopt a child so much that I'd intentionally keep them away from a willing and stable biological Dad. Arguing that he didn't help enough during the pregnancy or 4 months of life is not good enough. Let this child stay with her biological Dad who she surely knows as Dad now.

[Anonymous]

Question: If the child is on a reservation, is the US govt allowed to go and collect her? Are reservations their own "govt"?