Raising kids in a competitive UMC community? Would you do it all over again?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of places in the DC area which are middle class and not competitive UMC environments OP.

You can choose to live in a super competitive school district or go to an expensive private school, or you can live in a less expensive area with decent mid tier public schools, even in the DC area. The choice is yours OP.

Not OP, but again, I completely reject this. We moved out to Loudoun County, to a diverse area with middling public schools. Our MS/HS hover around a 4 on Great Schools. While this did maybe result in less academic competition (in numbers of kids, the competitive kids are still competitive), there is still tremendous financial competition. My husband and I call it the "arms race" and its definitely contagious. Some people cannot stand when others have something better than they do and must immediately remedy the situation. Tons of fancy 60-70k SUVs (the latest trend seems to be a fully loaded Tahoe), $100k kitchens, second homes, new cars for teenagers, expensive name brand clothing and shoes (most teens are wearing a sneaker that costs $150+) etc. You would have to be blind or oblivious not to notice. A friend of mine recently told me she no longer wants to host at her home because she is embarrassed that her kitchen is old and not remodeled.

I'm pretty sure Loudon county is the richest county in Virginia, or actually the entire country. So not only do you live in the middle of nowhere, but you have crappy schools and you didn't remotely escape that striver mindset.

I’m not going to bother explaining statistics to you, but highest median household income does not equal net worth or even mean/average household income. Most of the families doing all this striving are barely breaking $300k. They are just terrible with money and value superficial things.

Ok? What's your point? I understand statistics, thanks. The point is that the person saying they moved to Loudon County and are then shocked that they're surrounded by strivers missed the memo that that's exactly the kind of person who lives in Loudon County.

I’m that poster and Loudoun County is not a monolith. My kids high school has 40% of students on free and reduced lunch. Saying the medical HHI in Loudoun is over $100k doesn’t mean every (or even most) families in Loudoun are UMC.

And yet you're surrounded by people driving six-figure SUVs. Ok.

LA and NYC also has plenty of poverty.

Places outside of DC seem more focused on beauty. Or DC is just an unattractive city. Lots of well educated unattractive people.

Lots of well-educated, unattractive people with no fashion sense who can't wait to tell you about how well-educated they are... who also think they are making great sacrifices to "help government" while raking in 300k, or, more often, quietly drawing from a family trust and making 150k but having a complex about it because their sister/brother/identical twin is a neurosurgeon in LA/food stylist in NYC and has a much cooler life.

What’s with the fixation on people not being attractive or having fashion sense (which I don’t even think it’s true??)? Like you would come off as a lot less insecure if you had valid criticisms of DC without resorting to attacking people’s looks. It just screams of insecurity and bitterness which are traits you ironically accuse the uglies of…

Not the pp. I am from NYC and people are more attractive in NYC. They dress better and better put together. I used to live and work in Manhattan. Even though I was not especially into fashion, I had retail flagships with their newest and hottest merchandise on display for the world to see. I would buy this and dress stylish. DC isn’t a fashion hub. As pp pointed out, most jobs in dc are relatively boring, especially feds.

So you aren’t friends with people who aren’t fashionable enough for you?

I have now lived in DC for over a decade. I’m absolutely no longer fashionable. My friends in dc are mostly not fashionable either. I don’t choose my friends based on how they look. We wear vineyard vines, lily Pulitzer, lululemon, athleta and Patagonia. I walk around in uggs. None of these are fashionable. I was never brand specific in my shopping in nyc or when I shopped in other cities and countries. I loved boutiques and designers I never heard of before.

Is there a point in there somewhere?

DC is less fashionable than NYC and is less attractive than NYC.

After living in an area, it is only natural for people to blend in with their environment. OP is referring to UMC neighborhoods. My kids fit in and thrive in our UMC/UC neighborhood. None of us are very fashionable, just like our peers.

So? No one is saying Lululemon or Ugg is fashionable. We are saying it’s popular with teens and there is pressure on kids to have the expensive brands.

We have a seven figure HHI and don’t think uggs are expensive. My kids don’t feel pressure to have expensive brands.

I may think a teen wearing a $3k moncler coat might be a bit much but $100 leggings seem fine to me. Buy your kid some Lululemon leggings. Sheesh.

Way to miss the point.

No. She does not miss the point.

If you make over 1mil a year and are unhappy about kids wearing/ expecting $100 leggings, you are going to be unhappy anywhere because unhappiness comes from within you.

If you make 300k like my household, and can't keep up with your neighbors who make over 1 mil, move a little further out. Don't expect your neighbors who make over 1mil to act like they make 300k so your kids can feel better. Imagine you, a grown adult expecting this and complaining about kids' expectations.

There are educated smart people who don’t make 1 mil a year. Find a neighborhood with those and move. My neighbors include surgeons, PHD scientists, lawyers, psychologists, etc. Our HHI range from 250 - 600k, and our kids don't wear $100 leggings because we cannot afford them.

If we could afford those leggings, we would not care that the kids expected them, not because we think they are cheap, but because its not a big issue in the grand scheme of things. Life is short too short to make up problems.

You both miss the point. We make $300k (closer to 400 actually) and live around others also probably making similar. We can “afford” $120 leggings but it’s just a stupid thing to spend on for a growing child and I hate that the other people here also making $300k have decided to be so wasteful with their money in some attempt to make their kids “cool.” I hate that making their kid cool is their main goal in parenting. It’s toxic.

How do you even know what the $120 leggings look like? They all look exactly the same to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of places in the DC area which are middle class and not competitive UMC environments OP.

You can choose to live in a super competitive school district or go to an expensive private school, or you can live in a less expensive area with decent mid tier public schools, even in the DC area. The choice is yours OP.

Not OP, but again, I completely reject this. We moved out to Loudoun County, to a diverse area with middling public schools. Our MS/HS hover around a 4 on Great Schools. While this did maybe result in less academic competition (in numbers of kids, the competitive kids are still competitive), there is still tremendous financial competition. My husband and I call it the "arms race" and its definitely contagious. Some people cannot stand when others have something better than they do and must immediately remedy the situation. Tons of fancy 60-70k SUVs (the latest trend seems to be a fully loaded Tahoe), $100k kitchens, second homes, new cars for teenagers, expensive name brand clothing and shoes (most teens are wearing a sneaker that costs $150+) etc. You would have to be blind or oblivious not to notice. A friend of mine recently told me she no longer wants to host at her home because she is embarrassed that her kitchen is old and not remodeled.

I'm pretty sure Loudon county is the richest county in Virginia, or actually the entire country. So not only do you live in the middle of nowhere, but you have crappy schools and you didn't remotely escape that striver mindset.

I’m not going to bother explaining statistics to you, but highest median household income does not equal net worth or even mean/average household income. Most of the families doing all this striving are barely breaking $300k. They are just terrible with money and value superficial things.

Ok? What's your point? I understand statistics, thanks. The point is that the person saying they moved to Loudon County and are then shocked that they're surrounded by strivers missed the memo that that's exactly the kind of person who lives in Loudon County.

I’m that poster and Loudoun County is not a monolith. My kids high school has 40% of students on free and reduced lunch. Saying the medical HHI in Loudoun is over $100k doesn’t mean every (or even most) families in Loudoun are UMC.

And yet you're surrounded by people driving six-figure SUVs. Ok.

LA and NYC also has plenty of poverty.

Places outside of DC seem more focused on beauty. Or DC is just an unattractive city. Lots of well educated unattractive people.

Lots of well-educated, unattractive people with no fashion sense who can't wait to tell you about how well-educated they are... who also think they are making great sacrifices to "help government" while raking in 300k, or, more often, quietly drawing from a family trust and making 150k but having a complex about it because their sister/brother/identical twin is a neurosurgeon in LA/food stylist in NYC and has a much cooler life.

What’s with the fixation on people not being attractive or having fashion sense (which I don’t even think it’s true??)? Like you would come off as a lot less insecure if you had valid criticisms of DC without resorting to attacking people’s looks. It just screams of insecurity and bitterness which are traits you ironically accuse the uglies of…

Not the pp. I am from NYC and people are more attractive in NYC. They dress better and better put together. I used to live and work in Manhattan. Even though I was not especially into fashion, I had retail flagships with their newest and hottest merchandise on display for the world to see. I would buy this and dress stylish. DC isn’t a fashion hub. As pp pointed out, most jobs in dc are relatively boring, especially feds.

So you aren’t friends with people who aren’t fashionable enough for you?

I have now lived in DC for over a decade. I’m absolutely no longer fashionable. My friends in dc are mostly not fashionable either. I don’t choose my friends based on how they look. We wear vineyard vines, lily Pulitzer, lululemon, athleta and Patagonia. I walk around in uggs. None of these are fashionable. I was never brand specific in my shopping in nyc or when I shopped in other cities and countries. I loved boutiques and designers I never heard of before.

Is there a point in there somewhere?

DC is less fashionable than NYC and is less attractive than NYC.

After living in an area, it is only natural for people to blend in with their environment. OP is referring to UMC neighborhoods. My kids fit in and thrive in our UMC/UC neighborhood. None of us are very fashionable, just like our peers.

So? No one is saying Lululemon or Ugg is fashionable. We are saying it’s popular with teens and there is pressure on kids to have the expensive brands.

We have a seven figure HHI and don’t think uggs are expensive. My kids don’t feel pressure to have expensive brands.

I may think a teen wearing a $3k moncler coat might be a bit much but $100 leggings seem fine to me. Buy your kid some Lululemon leggings. Sheesh.

Way to miss the point.

No. She does not miss the point.

If you make over 1mil a year and are unhappy about kids wearing/ expecting $100 leggings, you are going to be unhappy anywhere because unhappiness comes from within you.

If you make 300k like my household, and can't keep up with your neighbors who make over 1 mil, move a little further out. Don't expect your neighbors who make over 1mil to act like they make 300k so your kids can feel better. Imagine you, a grown adult expecting this and complaining about kids' expectations.

There are educated smart people who don’t make 1 mil a year. Find a neighborhood with those and move. My neighbors include surgeons, PHD scientists, lawyers, psychologists, etc. Our HHI range from 250 - 600k, and our kids don't wear $100 leggings because we cannot afford them.

If we could afford those leggings, we would not care that the kids expected them, not because we think they are cheap, but because its not a big issue in the grand scheme of things. Life is short too short to make up problems.

You both miss the point. We make $300k (closer to 400 actually) and live around others also probably making similar. We can “afford” $120 leggings but it’s just a stupid thing to spend on for a growing child and I hate that the other people here also making $300k have decided to be so wasteful with their money in some attempt to make their kids “cool.” I hate that making their kid cool is their main goal in parenting. It’s toxic.

No. You cannot regularly afford $120 leggings for children on that income unless you have a trust fund or some other source of income. And you might be less angry and judgmental when you realize that.

If your children are smart, they would be grateful for reasonable parents if you choose not to keep up with the Joneses.

?? How are you making this statement? Do you know what their expenses are?

[Anonymous]

What I've learned from this thread...

There are certain markers that will immediately signal to some that you are competitive, regardless if you are or are not.

Everyone knows competitiveness when they "see it."

Everyone feels that they are the lone dolphin in a sea of sharks.

[Anonymous]

Interesting thread.

We live in Mclean, and we've thought about moving to other areas (ski town in the Rockies, mostly) but I feel strongly that raising kids in a competitive, driven environment is important. The world is a competitive place, I want my kids to be successful and have an impact, and here they are exposed to so many successful and competitive people. I think it's a good thing. If you surround yourself with high-achievers you are more likely to achieve, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Interesting thread.

We live in Mclean, and we've thought about moving to other areas (ski town in the Rockies, mostly) but I feel strongly that raising kids in a competitive, driven environment is important. The world is a competitive place, I want my kids to be successful and have an impact, and here they are exposed to so many successful and competitive people. I think it's a good thing. If you surround yourself with high-achievers you are more likely to achieve, right?

If you want their impact to have a negative effect on humanity, then yes, probably.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Interesting thread.

We live in Mclean, and we've thought about moving to other areas (ski town in the Rockies, mostly) but I feel strongly that raising kids in a competitive, driven environment is important. The world is a competitive place, I want my kids to be successful and have an impact, and here they are exposed to so many successful and competitive people. I think it's a good thing. If you surround yourself with high-achievers you are more likely to achieve, right?

Haha. Funnily enough I grew up in McLean - and got out of there as soon as humanly possibly, to in fact live in the Rockies. Personally I could not disagree more with your premise, and the only “advantage” growing up in that area got me was feeling insanely stressed all the time. I do not feel that my parents did me a favor raising me there

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where are y'all moving to that is so chill? Honestly, I have friends/family in UMC places all over the country (Chicago burbs, Seattle, SF, Houston, Indianapolis) and everyone is stressed and competitive and driving hours and hours for travel soccer.

TN, SC, NC, Colorado, Florida - those are the ones I personally know people left for.

Not every part of NC or Florida is an intense competitive area. Some are. I kind of figured that was understood - obviously people aren’t moving from the northeast seeking less competitive areas and choosing that same type of community when they decamp to Florida or NC. But the pp asked where people are going and I gave areas not pinpointing the exact towns.


I’m in a NC area coming from a competitive FL area. Both are competitive. It looks different. Just last week two parents were pushing the refs at a basketball game. Two local board members. The refs got loaded and said it’s a kids game, and the first game, we heard you. If you think this stuff doesn’t happen elsewhere you’re wrong. That said some people don’t participate because in smaller areas they don’t have money or haven’t been exposed to these ideas. And guess what they end up in lower end jobs. So I don’t know. For is it’s been good, because we are ahead of the pack but there are small town striver parents here for sure. Travel parents also. I agree friend groups help but it’s there even if you chose not to participate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where are y'all moving to that is so chill? Honestly, I have friends/family in UMC places all over the country (Chicago burbs, Seattle, SF, Houston, Indianapolis) and everyone is stressed and competitive and driving hours and hours for travel soccer.

TN, SC, NC, Colorado, Florida - those are the ones I personally know people left for.

I’m in a NC area coming from a competitive FL area. Both are competitive. It looks different. Just last week two parents were pushing the refs at a basketball game. Two local board members. The refs got loaded and said it’s a kids game, and the first game, we heard you. If you think this stuff doesn’t happen elsewhere you’re wrong. That said some people don’t participate because in smaller areas they don’t have money or haven’t been exposed to these ideas. And guess what they end up in lower end jobs. So I don’t know. For is it’s been good, because we are ahead of the pack but there are small town striver parents here for sure. Travel parents also. I agree friend groups help but it’s there even if you chose not to participate.

I don’t know much about NC. Florida absolutely is competitive with sports, much more than the DMV. Florida is also more superficial and places more pressure on beauty. I would rather buy my daughter some lululemon than her asking me for breast implants.

Pensacola isn’t Destin isn’t Jacksonville isn’t Palm Beach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are currently raising our kids in a very competitive UMC community. There’s some racial diversity but next to no socioeconomic diversity. Top 1 percent ranked public school in the national, starting price for a modest house is 1.5-2n… it’s very much a bubble.

I have been down your "road not taken" after two stints living in the MD suburbs in "W" school neighborhoods.

I enjoyed the more relaxed, somewhat less UMC communities that I lived in before and after my year at a "W" feeder middle school quite a long time ago. I found there was a lot more snobbery and pointless academic pressure at that school compared to where I had come from and where I lived next after a second rapid interstate move. That experience is why I decided that I would never endorse attending "the best" schools just based on reputation.

In my 20s, I worked in DC and lived in the MD catchment area of another "W" school. Plainly put, my husband and I couldn't figure out how to finance the life we wanted in that area so we moved away. At the time, I would have aspired to a $450-$650K tiny colonial somewhat within walking distance to the Bethesda Metro. These houses are now 2x-4x the price. Could not have afforded that kind of house before grad school and would have sacrificed probably 10 years of young family life to getting financially comfortable if we had moved back to where I wanted to live.

We now live in a small suburban city far from the DMV]

Would you mind sharing the name of general area of your new happy home?

I live in Oakland County, Michigan. Classic flyover country. Originally from Pittsburgh, which I also recommend as a friendly place if you can find a job there.

The amount of this thread devoted to using Lululemon as a symbol of all that's wrong with American materialism reminds me that there is a Lululemon-heavy neighborhood to the north of me. Lol, so if you want to be my neighbor, let me know so I can share more precise directions. Also, you should be prepared to live in a 3BR Tudor or Craftsman bungalow. We don't have many Colonials here. Other more typical suburbs (1950s-1990s houses) are nearby.

Who else here is a lurker from outside the DMV?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting thread.

We live in Mclean, and we've thought about moving to other areas (ski town in the Rockies, mostly) but I feel strongly that raising kids in a competitive, driven environment is important. The world is a competitive place, I want my kids to be successful and have an impact, and here they are exposed to so many successful and competitive people. I think it's a good thing. If you surround yourself with high-achievers you are more likely to achieve, right?

Haha. Funnily enough I grew up in McLean - and got out of there as soon as humanly possibly, to in fact live in the Rockies. Personally I could not disagree more with your premise, and the only “advantage” growing up in that area got me was feeling insanely stressed all the time. I do not feel that my parents did me a favor raising me there

Fair points, and I do go back and forth on this and could one day change my mind. It's very hard to know what's best. I just think back to my childhood, and those I grew up around, and those surrounded by high-achievers tend to be doing better in adulthood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where are y'all moving to that is so chill? Honestly, I have friends/family in UMC places all over the country (Chicago burbs, Seattle, SF, Houston, Indianapolis) and everyone is stressed and competitive and driving hours and hours for travel soccer.

TN, SC, NC, Colorado, Florida - those are the ones I personally know people left for.

I’m in a NC area coming from a competitive FL area. Both are competitive. It looks different. Just last week two parents were pushing the refs at a basketball game. Two local board members. The refs got loaded and said it’s a kids game, and the first game, we heard you. If you think this stuff doesn’t happen elsewhere you’re wrong. That said some people don’t participate because in smaller areas they don’t have money or haven’t been exposed to these ideas. And guess what they end up in lower end jobs. So I don’t know. For is it’s been good, because we are ahead of the pack but there are small town striver parents here for sure. Travel parents also. I agree friend groups help but it’s there even if you chose not to participate.

I don’t know much about NC. Florida absolutely is competitive with sports, much more than the DMV. Florida is also more superficial and places more pressure on beauty. I would rather buy my daughter some lululemon than her asking me for breast implants.

Pensacola isn’t Destin isn’t Jacksonville isn’t Palm Beach.

Bethesda, Baltimore, Bowie, Ocean City and Laurel are all different as well. You don’t have to live in Bethesda or Chevy Chase.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting thread.

We live in Mclean, and we've thought about moving to other areas (ski town in the Rockies, mostly) but I feel strongly that raising kids in a competitive, driven environment is important. The world is a competitive place, I want my kids to be successful and have an impact, and here they are exposed to so many successful and competitive people. I think it's a good thing. If you surround yourself with high-achievers you are more likely to achieve, right?

Haha. Funnily enough I grew up in McLean - and got out of there as soon as humanly possibly, to in fact live in the Rockies. Personally I could not disagree more with your premise, and the only “advantage” growing up in that area got me was feeling insanely stressed all the time. I do not feel that my parents did me a favor raising me there

Fair points, and I do go back and forth on this and could one day change my mind. It's very hard to know what's best. I just think back to my childhood, and those I grew up around, and those surrounded by high-achievers tend to be doing better in adulthood.

I moved a few times. During early childhood, I lived in a LMC neighborhood. Then my family moved to a rural area in the Midwest. Ultimately, we moved to a major city and then to the suburbs. It is night and day the outcomes of the people who are from the LMC, rural and urban areas. It is a mix of education, money, travel, lifestyle.

DH is a physician and he can work literally anywhere. He has had some offers in some remote areas where we would live like kings because of high pay and very low cost of living. We thought about it long and hard and we reside in McLean. There are so many lawyers and doctors living in McLean.

[Anonymous]

Pp here. We live in McLean because of good schools and proximity to work. We met and realized how many physicians and lawyers live here after living here for a few years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting thread.

We live in Mclean, and we've thought about moving to other areas (ski town in the Rockies, mostly) but I feel strongly that raising kids in a competitive, driven environment is important. The world is a competitive place, I want my kids to be successful and have an impact, and here they are exposed to so many successful and competitive people. I think it's a good thing. If you surround yourself with high-achievers you are more likely to achieve, right?

Haha. Funnily enough I grew up in McLean - and got out of there as soon as humanly possibly, to in fact live in the Rockies. Personally I could not disagree more with your premise, and the only “advantage” growing up in that area got me was feeling insanely stressed all the time. I do not feel that my parents did me a favor raising me there

You don’t even realize the advantage that you had compared to those who grew up with unmotivated peers and few opportunities where they lived.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Interesting thread.

We live in Mclean, and we've thought about moving to other areas (ski town in the Rockies, mostly) but I feel strongly that raising kids in a competitive, driven environment is important. The world is a competitive place, I want my kids to be successful and have an impact, and here they are exposed to so many successful and competitive people. I think it's a good thing. If you surround yourself with high-achievers you are more likely to achieve, right?

Simple Simon says waaa