Why are teachers and nurses underpaid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn't lump in teachers and nurses. Having the summer off and all those days/weeks off during the school year, and a daily schedule that matches your kids' schoolday is incredible.

Yes yes many will say they are working nonstop during all this time but the teachers I know IRL don't feel that way, especially once you have been doing it a few yrs. And many make supplemental income in the summer if needed with tutoring, ed camps etc.

I’ll remember that next weekend when I spend all Sunday grading IB papers. I’ll also remember that when I sit in my car during my own kids’ meets so I can get my lesson plans in on time.

I’ve been teaching many years. 55-60 hour weeks are the norm for many high school teachers. It’s getting worse, too. If this job were so wonderful, like your post suggests it is, why exactly are we facing a growing teacher shortage?

This is the sort of reasoning that gets me about teachers.
1) Don't you think many of us spend all Sunday working not unoccassionally? Inc & esp nonprofit workers?
2) Don't you think that many of us have to sit in our car during meets to grade?
3) don' you think many of us work 55+ a week?
I find it amazing that teachers think they are entitled to not work b/c their kids have a game.

Do some professionals work over 40? Of course. Do most? No, I’m not buying it. Look no further than DCUM for threads about working only 15-20 hours a week at full-time jobs.

And where did I say that I am entitled to not work because my kid has a game? Guess what? I work at EVERY game and EVERY practice. I’d like the ability to watch one of these days without having a stack of papers on my lap. Is that acting entitled?

Seriously, the disrespect throughout this thread is a perfect illustration of why teachers are quitting.

I don't think you understand what it's like in the big money professions, eg big law, consulting, or ibanking.

Um… there it is: “big money professions.” Sure, it may be the norm in some “big money professions,” which you just compared to teaching.

See, you don't get it. Grading some papers at a game pales in comparison to the hours and stress of big law or top 3 consulting. Guess what, the pay isn't going to be comparable, particularly when teachers aren't generating $1k/billable hour.

And this attitude is exactly why teachers are underpaid.

Agreed. What do we do when all the great teachers quit? It’s already happening. My kid lost her ELA teacher just this week, a teacher who had a great reputation at the school. From what I hear, she got a great offer in another field. I want to be upset about her leaving my daughter’s class without a teacher, but I can’t fault her for putting herself first. But now my kid has a long-term sub, and I can’t imagine that they will be able to hire a replacement considering the shortage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn't lump in teachers and nurses. Having the summer off and all those days/weeks off during the school year, and a daily schedule that matches your kids' schoolday is incredible.

Yes yes many will say they are working nonstop during all this time but the teachers I know IRL don't feel that way, especially once you have been doing it a few yrs. And many make supplemental income in the summer if needed with tutoring, ed camps etc.

I’ll remember that next weekend when I spend all Sunday grading IB papers. I’ll also remember that when I sit in my car during my own kids’ meets so I can get my lesson plans in on time.

I’ve been teaching many years. 55-60 hour weeks are the norm for many high school teachers. It’s getting worse, too. If this job were so wonderful, like your post suggests it is, why exactly are we facing a growing teacher shortage?

This is the sort of reasoning that gets me about teachers.
1) Don't you think many of us spend all Sunday working not unoccassionally? Inc & esp nonprofit workers?
2) Don't you think that many of us have to sit in our car during meets to grade?
3) don' you think many of us work 55+ a week?
I find it amazing that teachers think they are entitled to not work b/c their kids have a game.

Do some professionals work over 40? Of course. Do most? No, I’m not buying it. Look no further than DCUM for threads about working only 15-20 hours a week at full-time jobs.

And where did I say that I am entitled to not work because my kid has a game? Guess what? I work at EVERY game and EVERY practice. I’d like the ability to watch one of these days without having a stack of papers on my lap. Is that acting entitled?

Seriously, the disrespect throughout this thread is a perfect illustration of why teachers are quitting.

I don't think you understand what it's like in the big money professions, eg big law, consulting, or ibanking.

Um… there it is: “big money professions.” Sure, it may be the norm in some “big money professions,” which you just compared to teaching.

See, you don't get it. Grading some papers at a game pales in comparison to the hours and stress of big law or top 3 consulting. Guess what, the pay isn't going to be comparable, particularly when teachers aren't generating $1k/billable hour.

My 65-70 hour weeks probably don’t pale in comparison too much. Perhaps I don’t generate $1k/billable hours. I merely generate the next generation of workers. That’s not important at all, I guess.

BS that you're working 70 hour weeks, 52 weeks a year. It's also becoming very clear that you believe your pay should be completely untethered from the underlying economics.

Please tell me who could afford to live in a city that pays its public school teachers like big law associates.

You can call BS all you want. My stack of 140 essays isn’t grading itself. Neither will the stack of 140 essays that will be turned in 2 weeks from now. Each takes 10-15 minutes to review. I’m sure you can do the math. I also don’t get to pause my job to grade. Students have a habit of showing up and demanding my attention for 7 hours every work day.

So your only reason for keeping my pay low is that there are too many teachers to pay accordingly? Well, the crisis in staffing right now will take care of that. Seeing as how this is a profession critical to society, counties will absolutely begin paying more once the crisis hits extreme levels. It’s just a matter of time considering the exodus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is it because both occupations are mainly performed by women, and women are not valued as highly as men?

Yes

[Anonymous]

Society does not value caregiver work that is primarily done by women. Other underpaid caregiver jobs are childcare, home health care aides, CNAs

[Anonymous]

Often you can guilt caregivers into lower pay by saying they people need them and they are doing their job "for the kids_ or "for their patients "

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think they are underpaid. Yes I think they work hard and deserve our respect but what the earn is ovoid considering the amount of days off they get over the course of a year ( teachers) compared to other jobs. I am not s nurse but do shift work similar to a nurse schedule, they’re not working every day either and depending on where they work and seniority can get cushy schedules too.

Well, at 60 hours a week during the school year and 25-30 hours a week during my unpaid summer, I definitely feel underpaid. If your reasoning for keeping teachers’ pay low is some perceived idea of days off, then consider yourself corrected. Today was a day off. I worked 8 hours prepping for next week. I’ll finish planning tomorrow, on Labor Day.

Don’t confuse “days off” with “days not working.” The only difference to me is that I can pee when I want to on weekends and during the summer.

Stop it. You aren't working that much.

Guess what? Some teachers ABSOLUTELY work this much. Let’s take a look at teachers who have to grade essays. If you figure 10 minutes an essay for 140 students, that’s over 23 hours of grading for that assignment alone. The teaching doesn’t stop and the tons of other duties don’t stop, so that happens on your own time. Or… consider the teacher at an understaffed school who has to spend every free moment covering a class. ALL planning and grading has to happen at home. And summers? That’s time for curriculum revisions, additional coursework, etc.

We can ignore reality all we want, but teachers are leaving because this is what they are experiencing.

The problem with many teachers is that they have no idea of how most white collar professions work --- they think others don't struggle with hours, working outside of hours, burnout politics, I don't get days off when my kid is sick and don't think I should, staffing shortages, increasing demands (although the last is pretty bad in teaching, I will give you that). It's shocking to me how unequipped teachers are to work in other professions and don't know basic office norms. There is bound to be someone who comes on and says "I worked in investment banking and now teach it's so much harder." Fine. But for a nonprofit , mission - oriented job, the conditions aren't really all that different elsewhere. Outside bathroom breaks.
There are also very few barriers to entry in some teaching jobs. Not so in other jobs.
I thought about teaching. I felt like i wasn't for me, b/c it would be the same job for years --you couldn't advance. I don't know how true that really is, and knew even less in my 20s. It didn't have to do with $ in my case but it just seemed like i twasn't a job for an ambitious person. That should change.

That's the thing though, I think people DO know how white collar professions work, but the whole point is that teacher pay is not comparable to most other white collar professions. If the expectation is that teachers function like "white collar workers" (fine)...pay them like white collar workers.

What a dumb comparison. Teachers are not "white collar" like other office workers. They're in a customer-facing job like cops and retail staff. The same misconception came up during COVID, when suddenly teachers thought they were desk workers who could just phone it in from home.

You think teachers shouldn’t be paid more because “they’re like cops.” Great. How does that resolve the shortage of teachers?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think they are underpaid. Yes I think they work hard and deserve our respect but what the earn is ovoid considering the amount of days off they get over the course of a year ( teachers) compared to other jobs. I am not s nurse but do shift work similar to a nurse schedule, they’re not working every day either and depending on where they work and seniority can get cushy schedules too.

Well, at 60 hours a week during the school year and 25-30 hours a week during my unpaid summer, I definitely feel underpaid. If your reasoning for keeping teachers’ pay low is some perceived idea of days off, then consider yourself corrected. Today was a day off. I worked 8 hours prepping for next week. I’ll finish planning tomorrow, on Labor Day.

Don’t confuse “days off” with “days not working.” The only difference to me is that I can pee when I want to on weekends and during the summer.

Stop it. You aren't working that much.

Guess what? Some teachers ABSOLUTELY work this much. Let’s take a look at teachers who have to grade essays. If you figure 10 minutes an essay for 140 students, that’s over 23 hours of grading for that assignment alone. The teaching doesn’t stop and the tons of other duties don’t stop, so that happens on your own time. Or… consider the teacher at an understaffed school who has to spend every free moment covering a class. ALL planning and grading has to happen at home. And summers? That’s time for curriculum revisions, additional coursework, etc.

We can ignore reality all we want, but teachers are leaving because this is what they are experiencing.

The problem with many teachers is that they have no idea of how most white collar professions work --- they think others don't struggle with hours, working outside of hours, burnout politics, I don't get days off when my kid is sick and don't think I should, staffing shortages, increasing demands (although the last is pretty bad in teaching, I will give you that). It's shocking to me how unequipped teachers are to work in other professions and don't know basic office norms. There is bound to be someone who comes on and says "I worked in investment banking and now teach it's so much harder." Fine. But for a nonprofit , mission - oriented job, the conditions aren't really all that different elsewhere. Outside bathroom breaks.
There are also very few barriers to entry in some teaching jobs. Not so in other jobs.
I thought about teaching. I felt like i wasn't for me, b/c it would be the same job for years --you couldn't advance. I don't know how true that really is, and knew even less in my 20s. It didn't have to do with $ in my case but it just seemed like i twasn't a job for an ambitious person. That should change.

That's the thing though, I think people DO know how white collar professions work, but the whole point is that teacher pay is not comparable to most other white collar professions. If the expectation is that teachers function like "white collar workers" (fine)...pay them like white collar workers.

What a dumb comparison. Teachers are not "white collar" like other office workers. They're in a customer-facing job like cops and retail staff. The same misconception came up during COVID, when suddenly teachers thought they were desk workers who could just phone it in from home.

You think teachers shouldn’t be paid more because “they’re like cops.” Great. How does that resolve the shortage of teachers?

Actually, that may help. Pay me overtime like a police officer.

The PP does bring up another good point in her attempt to insult above. Police officers, teachers, and retail workers are all disrespected professions, yet they were the ones we needed during Covid (along with nurses, of course, but the PP didn’t try to insult them.) I’d love to see a pay structure through which we pay people based on their value to society.

[Anonymous]

It's interesting how many posters blame teachers for the school calendar. Which is an antiquated relic from when kids were needed to help with planting. If you don't think we should take off three months in the summer than vote accordingly in school board elections. Parents have a much bigger voice in those elections than teachers

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn't lump in teachers and nurses. Having the summer off and all those days/weeks off during the school year, and a daily schedule that matches your kids' schoolday is incredible.

Yes yes many will say they are working nonstop during all this time but the teachers I know IRL don't feel that way, especially once you have been doing it a few yrs. And many make supplemental income in the summer if needed with tutoring, ed camps etc.

I’ll remember that next weekend when I spend all Sunday grading IB papers. I’ll also remember that when I sit in my car during my own kids’ meets so I can get my lesson plans in on time.

I’ve been teaching many years. 55-60 hour weeks are the norm for many high school teachers. It’s getting worse, too. If this job were so wonderful, like your post suggests it is, why exactly are we facing a growing teacher shortage?

This is the sort of reasoning that gets me about teachers.
1) Don't you think many of us spend all Sunday working not unoccassionally? Inc & esp nonprofit workers?
2) Don't you think that many of us have to sit in our car during meets to grade?
3) don' you think many of us work 55+ a week?
I find it amazing that teachers think they are entitled to not work b/c their kids have a game.

Do some professionals work over 40? Of course. Do most? No, I’m not buying it. Look no further than DCUM for threads about working only 15-20 hours a week at full-time jobs.

And where did I say that I am entitled to not work because my kid has a game? Guess what? I work at EVERY game and EVERY practice. I’d like the ability to watch one of these days without having a stack of papers on my lap. Is that acting entitled?

Seriously, the disrespect throughout this thread is a perfect illustration of why teachers are quitting.

I don't think you understand what it's like in the big money professions, eg big law, consulting, or ibanking.

Um… there it is: “big money professions.” Sure, it may be the norm in some “big money professions,” which you just compared to teaching.

See, you don't get it. Grading some papers at a game pales in comparison to the hours and stress of big law or top 3 consulting. Guess what, the pay isn't going to be comparable, particularly when teachers aren't generating $1k/billable hour.

My 65-70 hour weeks probably don’t pale in comparison too much. Perhaps I don’t generate $1k/billable hours. I merely generate the next generation of workers. That’s not important at all, I guess.

BS that you're working 70 hour weeks, 52 weeks a year. It's also becoming very clear that you believe your pay should be completely untethered from the underlying economics.

Please tell me who could afford to live in a city that pays its public school teachers like big law associates.

You can call BS all you want. My stack of 140 essays isn’t grading itself. Neither will the stack of 140 essays that will be turned in 2 weeks from now. Each takes 10-15 minutes to review. I’m sure you can do the math. I also don’t get to pause my job to grade. Students have a habit of showing up and demanding my attention for 7 hours every work day.

So your only reason for keeping my pay low is that there are too many teachers to pay accordingly? Well, the crisis in staffing right now will take care of that. Seeing as how this is a profession critical to society, counties will absolutely begin paying more once the crisis hits extreme levels. It’s just a matter of time considering the exodus.

Where do you think your pay comes from? Property taxes. So, yes, there are actual limits to how much you can be paid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting how many posters blame teachers for the school calendar. Which is an antiquated relic from when kids were needed to help with planting. If you don't think we should take off three months in the summer than vote accordingly in school board elections. Parents have a much bigger voice in those elections than teachers

Yes, teachers have no influence whatsoever. They are innocent victims of the system who deserve much higher pay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn't lump in teachers and nurses. Having the summer off and all those days/weeks off during the school year, and a daily schedule that matches your kids' schoolday is incredible.

Yes yes many will say they are working nonstop during all this time but the teachers I know IRL don't feel that way, especially once you have been doing it a few yrs. And many make supplemental income in the summer if needed with tutoring, ed camps etc.

I’ll remember that next weekend when I spend all Sunday grading IB papers. I’ll also remember that when I sit in my car during my own kids’ meets so I can get my lesson plans in on time.

I’ve been teaching many years. 55-60 hour weeks are the norm for many high school teachers. It’s getting worse, too. If this job were so wonderful, like your post suggests it is, why exactly are we facing a growing teacher shortage?

This is the sort of reasoning that gets me about teachers.
1) Don't you think many of us spend all Sunday working not unoccassionally? Inc & esp nonprofit workers?
2) Don't you think that many of us have to sit in our car during meets to grade?
3) don' you think many of us work 55+ a week?
I find it amazing that teachers think they are entitled to not work b/c their kids have a game.

Do some professionals work over 40? Of course. Do most? No, I’m not buying it. Look no further than DCUM for threads about working only 15-20 hours a week at full-time jobs.

And where did I say that I am entitled to not work because my kid has a game? Guess what? I work at EVERY game and EVERY practice. I’d like the ability to watch one of these days without having a stack of papers on my lap. Is that acting entitled?

Seriously, the disrespect throughout this thread is a perfect illustration of why teachers are quitting.

I don't think you understand what it's like in the big money professions, eg big law, consulting, or ibanking.

Um… there it is: “big money professions.” Sure, it may be the norm in some “big money professions,” which you just compared to teaching.

See, you don't get it. Grading some papers at a game pales in comparison to the hours and stress of big law or top 3 consulting. Guess what, the pay isn't going to be comparable, particularly when teachers aren't generating $1k/billable hour.

My 65-70 hour weeks probably don’t pale in comparison too much. Perhaps I don’t generate $1k/billable hours. I merely generate the next generation of workers. That’s not important at all, I guess.

BS that you're working 70 hour weeks, 52 weeks a year. It's also becoming very clear that you believe your pay should be completely untethered from the underlying economics.

Please tell me who could afford to live in a city that pays its public school teachers like big law associates.

You can call BS all you want. My stack of 140 essays isn’t grading itself. Neither will the stack of 140 essays that will be turned in 2 weeks from now. Each takes 10-15 minutes to review. I’m sure you can do the math. I also don’t get to pause my job to grade. Students have a habit of showing up and demanding my attention for 7 hours every work day.

So your only reason for keeping my pay low is that there are too many teachers to pay accordingly? Well, the crisis in staffing right now will take care of that. Seeing as how this is a profession critical to society, counties will absolutely begin paying more once the crisis hits extreme levels. It’s just a matter of time considering the exodus.

Where do you think your pay comes from? Property taxes. So, yes, there are actual limits to how much you can be paid.

Nonsense. We throw a ton of money toward education, yet not enough of it is earmarked for teacher salaries. Let’s look critically at bloated central offices and unnecessary pet projects that don’t actually improve the students’ experience or performance.

I’m also in full support of raising taxes if that’s what it takes. Having an educated populace benefits all of us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is it because both occupations are mainly performed by women, and women are not valued as highly as men?

Another Yes.

[Anonymous]

Considering there are over 3M teachers and 5M nurses in the US that is going to limit the salary. I know most don’t want to believe it but they are common jobs that many many millions could do with some standard training.

What jobs with that type of quantity pay a high salary? Big tech is likely under 100k jobs that pay the big bucks. How many high paid executives are there, likely under 1M. Who would pay these high salaries for 8M workers, the median wage is in the 60-70k range.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it because both occupations are mainly performed by women, and women are not valued as highly as men?

Yes

#ParanoiaDoesntHelp

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn't lump in teachers and nurses. Having the summer off and all those days/weeks off during the school year, and a daily schedule that matches your kids' schoolday is incredible.

Yes yes many will say they are working nonstop during all this time but the teachers I know IRL don't feel that way, especially once you have been doing it a few yrs. And many make supplemental income in the summer if needed with tutoring, ed camps etc.

I’ll remember that next weekend when I spend all Sunday grading IB papers. I’ll also remember that when I sit in my car during my own kids’ meets so I can get my lesson plans in on time.

I’ve been teaching many years. 55-60 hour weeks are the norm for many high school teachers. It’s getting worse, too. If this job were so wonderful, like your post suggests it is, why exactly are we facing a growing teacher shortage?

This is the sort of reasoning that gets me about teachers.
1) Don't you think many of us spend all Sunday working not unoccassionally? Inc & esp nonprofit workers?
2) Don't you think that many of us have to sit in our car during meets to grade?
3) don' you think many of us work 55+ a week?
I find it amazing that teachers think they are entitled to not work b/c their kids have a game.

Do some professionals work over 40? Of course. Do most? No, I’m not buying it. Look no further than DCUM for threads about working only 15-20 hours a week at full-time jobs.

And where did I say that I am entitled to not work because my kid has a game? Guess what? I work at EVERY game and EVERY practice. I’d like the ability to watch one of these days without having a stack of papers on my lap. Is that acting entitled?

Seriously, the disrespect throughout this thread is a perfect illustration of why teachers are quitting.

I don't think you understand what it's like in the big money professions, eg big law, consulting, or ibanking.

Um… there it is: “big money professions.” Sure, it may be the norm in some “big money professions,” which you just compared to teaching.

See, you don't get it. Grading some papers at a game pales in comparison to the hours and stress of big law or top 3 consulting. Guess what, the pay isn't going to be comparable, particularly when teachers aren't generating $1k/billable hour.

My 65-70 hour weeks probably don’t pale in comparison too much. Perhaps I don’t generate $1k/billable hours. I merely generate the next generation of workers. That’s not important at all, I guess.

BS that you're working 70 hour weeks, 52 weeks a year. It's also becoming very clear that you believe your pay should be completely untethered from the underlying economics.

Please tell me who could afford to live in a city that pays its public school teachers like big law associates.

You can call BS all you want. My stack of 140 essays isn’t grading itself. Neither will the stack of 140 essays that will be turned in 2 weeks from now. Each takes 10-15 minutes to review. I’m sure you can do the math. I also don’t get to pause my job to grade. Students have a habit of showing up and demanding my attention for 7 hours every work day.

So your only reason for keeping my pay low is that there are too many teachers to pay accordingly? Well, the crisis in staffing right now will take care of that. Seeing as how this is a profession critical to society, counties will absolutely begin paying more once the crisis hits extreme levels. It’s just a matter of time considering the exodus.

Where do you think your pay comes from? Property taxes. So, yes, there are actual limits to how much you can be paid.

Nonsense. We throw a ton of money toward education, yet not enough of it is earmarked for teacher salaries. Let’s look critically at bloated central offices and unnecessary pet projects that don’t actually improve the students’ experience or performance.

I’m also in full support of raising taxes if that’s what it takes. Having an educated populace benefits all of us.

Teachers, like it or not, are a commodity. The real money as PP points out is in administration, central offices and merit-free seniority.