Ethnic cleansing in Eastern Europe - when will the United Nations declare this a genocide?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:With Russia and Russian soldiers behaving like an assymetric terrorist organization in their actions and tactics, apparently with widespread Russian support - will there be visa restrictions and double vetting for those seeking to travel abroad as there was for countries hosting/sympathizing with Isis terrorists etc? Cant imagine wanting to be on a beach towel next to someone who supports what's going on ...

Make no distinction between the terrorists and those that harbor them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With Russia and Russian soldiers behaving like an assymetric terrorist organization in their actions and tactics, apparently with widespread Russian support - will there be visa restrictions and double vetting for those seeking to travel abroad as there was for countries hosting/sympathizing with Isis terrorists etc? Cant imagine wanting to be on a beach towel next to someone who supports what's going on ...

Make no distinction between the terrorists and those that harbor them.

Well it's a fair question. Russians have gotten used to sending their kids abroad and holidays in Portugal, yet call the West gender Nazis. There's an article in the Post today about the kids of oligarchs who all go to Oxford or Columbia and have apartments in Paris - the same system that Russia is trying to dismantle/destroy. At some point Russia and Russians will need to be put in the need not apply list, unless for asylum which involves repudiating Russian policy.

[Anonymous]

How many more Karina’s are there still to be found. The family moved to Kyiv suburbs in 2014 running from russian occupation in Donbas region, for war to catch up with them there in 2022.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How many more Karina’s are there still to be found. The family moved to Kyiv suburbs in 2014 running from russian occupation in Donbas region, for war to catch up with them there in 2022.

I'm sure there are many who won't come forward out of fear/shame/etc. And many bodies where the evidence was destroyed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Russians are f!cking depraved animals. The soldiers should be shown no mercy. I'm part Jewish and I'd rather support Azov than an army full of demonic rapists and murderers.

If Azov are Banderites (I would think not all of them, but some may be) and you are Jewish, I doubt you would be supporting them. The photos of their atrocities (systemic genocide of 100s of thousands of Poles and Jews during WW2) are actually out there and available, this is well documented and proven.

Azov is Banderites like the US military is Nazi - does Azov have some far right people - Nazi, Bandera or otherwise? Yes. Every country does - US, Russia, Germany, France, Poland, etc. Definitely not the majority or even a significant part of today’s Azov. The guy who founded Azov left to start a political party, which was completely unsuccessful.

Yes, you are right that systematic killing of Jews and Poles did occur in WW2 - but that is not the responsibility of today’s Azov battalion.

You are repeating Russian propaganda, which tries to paint the current Ukrainian state with the brush of WW2. If you want to do that, we should also discuss how Putin is basically the successor to the government that committed the Holodomor in Ukraine, and which is again cutting of vast numbers of civilians (in Mariupol for example) and depriving them of food and water and humanitarian passage out of the city to other areas of Ukraine.

I was responding to a post that was relevant to the Jewish perspective, which does brush up on WW2 history, so, no need to scream Russian Propaganda. I am not suggesting Putin has a foot to stand on pretending to liberate the world from Nazis, THAT would be Russian propaganda. I am pointing out that Azov does have nazi element, this is a different situation with closeted nazis in our army who aren't endorsed officially by our government, the fact that it is controversial isn't my invention. It's been covered here before. Your response is a typical whataboutism. If PP didn't mention Jewish perspective specifically I would not have brought it up.

Can you show where the Ukrainian gov't is endorsing the nazi element in the Azov battalion?

Azov Battalion is a nationalist organization which is a part of Ukrainian army and is fighting on its behalf. Some in this and other nationalists factions are fans of Bandera and consider him a national hero. It's not something you can just sweep under a rug, it's an uncomfortable topic for the international community at large, especially for those of Jewish heritage. This doesn't take away from this topic we are discussing here, the atrocities of this unfair and horrible invasion and it doesn't imply that the entire Azov consists entirely of Banderites, so I am not sure why you are so defensive in acknowledging it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Russians are f!cking depraved animals. The soldiers should be shown no mercy. I'm part Jewish and I'd rather support Azov than an army full of demonic rapists and murderers.

If Azov are Banderites (I would think not all of them, but some may be) and you are Jewish, I doubt you would be supporting them. The photos of their atrocities (systemic genocide of 100s of thousands of Poles and Jews during WW2) are actually out there and available, this is well documented and proven.

Azov is Banderites like the US military is Nazi - does Azov have some far right people - Nazi, Bandera or otherwise? Yes. Every country does - US, Russia, Germany, France, Poland, etc. Definitely not the majority or even a significant part of today’s Azov. The guy who founded Azov left to start a political party, which was completely unsuccessful.

Yes, you are right that systematic killing of Jews and Poles did occur in WW2 - but that is not the responsibility of today’s Azov battalion.

You are repeating Russian propaganda, which tries to paint the current Ukrainian state with the brush of WW2. If you want to do that, we should also discuss how Putin is basically the successor to the government that committed the Holodomor in Ukraine, and which is again cutting of vast numbers of civilians (in Mariupol for example) and depriving them of food and water and humanitarian passage out of the city to other areas of Ukraine.

I was responding to a post that was relevant to the Jewish perspective, which does brush up on WW2 history, so, no need to scream Russian Propaganda. I am not suggesting Putin has a foot to stand on pretending to liberate the world from Nazis, THAT would be Russian propaganda. I am pointing out that Azov does have nazi element, this is a different situation with closeted nazis in our army who aren't endorsed officially by our government, the fact that it is controversial isn't my invention. It's been covered here before. Your response is a typical whataboutism. If PP didn't mention Jewish perspective specifically I would not have brought it up.

Can you show where the Ukrainian gov't is endorsing the nazi element in the Azov battalion?

Azov Battalion is a nationalist organization which is a part of Ukrainian army and is fighting on its behalf. Some in this and other nationalists factions are fans of Bandera and consider him a national hero. It's not something you can just sweep under a rug, it's an uncomfortable topic for the international community at large, especially for those of Jewish heritage. This doesn't take away from this topic we are discussing here, the atrocities of this unfair and horrible invasion and it doesn't imply that the entire Azov consists entirely of Banderites, so I am not sure why you are so defensive in acknowledging it.

I know that, but you didn't show where the Ukrainian gov't is endorsing the mazi element.

And this does take away from this topic, and you know it does, and that is your intention. Unfortunately, every organization of people will have nazi elements in it, so why are you choosing to focus on this one while the greater population is being raped, tortured, and murdered? It's like you relish doubling down on the atrocities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Russians are f!cking depraved animals. The soldiers should be shown no mercy. I'm part Jewish and I'd rather support Azov than an army full of demonic rapists and murderers.

If Azov are Banderites (I would think not all of them, but some may be) and you are Jewish, I doubt you would be supporting them. The photos of their atrocities (systemic genocide of 100s of thousands of Poles and Jews during WW2) are actually out there and available, this is well documented and proven.

Azov is Banderites like the US military is Nazi - does Azov have some far right people - Nazi, Bandera or otherwise? Yes. Every country does - US, Russia, Germany, France, Poland, etc. Definitely not the majority or even a significant part of today’s Azov. The guy who founded Azov left to start a political party, which was completely unsuccessful.

Yes, you are right that systematic killing of Jews and Poles did occur in WW2 - but that is not the responsibility of today’s Azov battalion.

You are repeating Russian propaganda, which tries to paint the current Ukrainian state with the brush of WW2. If you want to do that, we should also discuss how Putin is basically the successor to the government that committed the Holodomor in Ukraine, and which is again cutting of vast numbers of civilians (in Mariupol for example) and depriving them of food and water and humanitarian passage out of the city to other areas of Ukraine.

I was responding to a post that was relevant to the Jewish perspective, which does brush up on WW2 history, so, no need to scream Russian Propaganda. I am not suggesting Putin has a foot to stand on pretending to liberate the world from Nazis, THAT would be Russian propaganda. I am pointing out that Azov does have nazi element, this is a different situation with closeted nazis in our army who aren't endorsed officially by our government, the fact that it is controversial isn't my invention. It's been covered here before. Your response is a typical whataboutism. If PP didn't mention Jewish perspective specifically I would not have brought it up.

Can you show where the Ukrainian gov't is endorsing the nazi element in the Azov battalion?

Azov Battalion is a nationalist organization which is a part of Ukrainian army and is fighting on its behalf. Some in this and other nationalists factions are fans of Bandera and consider him a national hero. It's not something you can just sweep under a rug, it's an uncomfortable topic for the international community at large, especially for those of Jewish heritage. This doesn't take away from this topic we are discussing here, the atrocities of this unfair and horrible invasion and it doesn't imply that the entire Azov consists entirely of Banderites, so I am not sure why you are so defensive in acknowledging it.

DP, perhaps because you previous statements conflated Azov of today with Azov of 2014 with Bandera of WW2, inappropriately implying that all Azov today supported Bandera and Nazis, which is simply not true. You are backing down now and making it clear you are only talking about some. Now you are trying to undermine the PP by describing her as “defensive” for simply asking for a cite to your prior comments in which you tried to say that the presence of US nazis in the US military is different from Ukraine because US Nazis are “closeted” and “not officially endorsed by our government”, implying that, by contrast, that Ukraine Nazis in Azov are uncloseted and endorsed by the Ukraine government. PP is rightfully asking for a citation to support your contention.

The Ukraine government of today doesn’t support the “nazi element” in Azov or eleswhere. To continue to argue and insinuate so is to reinforce one of the foundational myths of Putin’s rationale for war against Ukraine - that the Ukraine government supports Nazisim or are themselves Nazis. This claim is absurd for many reasons. And yet, the fact that you promulgate but then back off a bit when challenged and criticize your rhetorical opponents as “defensive” or “whataboutism” shows exactly how this kind of propaganda works.

For those that want a fact-based view of the relationship between Azov, Azov soldiers with Nazi beliefs and the Ukrainian government, please watch this 9 minute BBC piece by Ros Atkins.

[url]https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-60853404
[/url]

Why is this so important? Because the claim of Ukrainian Nazi influence is the foundation of current Russian attempts at the genocide of Ukraine.

[Anonymous]

Nazis overran eastern Europe and then Russians came in and stayed longer. This Nazi claim is ridiculous. Almost every Western country sadly has neo Nazis - they are not run by them in Ukraine, whereas Russia is still run by thug, kleptocrat a*hole dictators.

[Anonymous]

The US Marine Corps has a long history of KKK/skinhead/Neo-Nazi sympathizers in its ranks. Should it also be dissolved?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Russians are f!cking depraved animals. The soldiers should be shown no mercy. I'm part Jewish and I'd rather support Azov than an army full of demonic rapists and murderers.

If Azov are Banderites (I would think not all of them, but some may be) and you are Jewish, I doubt you would be supporting them. The photos of their atrocities (systemic genocide of 100s of thousands of Poles and Jews during WW2) are actually out there and available, this is well documented and proven.

Azov is Banderites like the US military is Nazi - does Azov have some far right people - Nazi, Bandera or otherwise? Yes. Every country does - US, Russia, Germany, France, Poland, etc. Definitely not the majority or even a significant part of today’s Azov. The guy who founded Azov left to start a political party, which was completely unsuccessful.

Yes, you are right that systematic killing of Jews and Poles did occur in WW2 - but that is not the responsibility of today’s Azov battalion.

You are repeating Russian propaganda, which tries to paint the current Ukrainian state with the brush of WW2. If you want to do that, we should also discuss how Putin is basically the successor to the government that committed the Holodomor in Ukraine, and which is again cutting of vast numbers of civilians (in Mariupol for example) and depriving them of food and water and humanitarian passage out of the city to other areas of Ukraine.

I was responding to a post that was relevant to the Jewish perspective, which does brush up on WW2 history, so, no need to scream Russian Propaganda. I am not suggesting Putin has a foot to stand on pretending to liberate the world from Nazis, THAT would be Russian propaganda. I am pointing out that Azov does have nazi element, this is a different situation with closeted nazis in our army who aren't endorsed officially by our government, the fact that it is controversial isn't my invention. It's been covered here before. Your response is a typical whataboutism. If PP didn't mention Jewish perspective specifically I would not have brought it up.

Can you show where the Ukrainian gov't is endorsing the nazi element in the Azov battalion?

Azov Battalion is a nationalist organization which is a part of Ukrainian army and is fighting on its behalf. Some in this and other nationalists factions are fans of Bandera and consider him a national hero. It's not something you can just sweep under a rug, it's an uncomfortable topic for the international community at large, especially for those of Jewish heritage. This doesn't take away from this topic we are discussing here, the atrocities of this unfair and horrible invasion and it doesn't imply that the entire Azov consists entirely of Banderites, so I am not sure why you are so defensive in acknowledging it.

I believe the hysteria over Azovs being "Nazis" is overstated, outdated and defunct.
The Azov Battalion only represents less than 1% of Ukraine's military. Many of the original notorious neo-Nazi leaders and figures left the organization after 2014. And since 2017 there have been efforts by the Ukrainian government to remove Nazi ideology - even then, only around 15% of the Azov Battalion harbored any prior neo-Nazi affiliation. Now, in 2022 there are even Jews serving in the Azov Battalion. Meanwhile also consider that the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, is himself a Jew, grandson of a Jew who fought the Nazis in WWII, whose three brothers were murdered by Nazis in the Holocaust. Only a handful of nations have ever had a Jewish head of state. Ukraine elected a Jew with 73% of the vote. There is point after point after point that shoots holes in the theory that Ukraine is somehow a "Nazi" state. That "Nazi" narrative is desperate propaganda from the Putin regime - which has its own massive Nazi problem, such as the Wagner Group, founded by neo-Nazi Dmitri Utkin who has Nazi SS insignia and a Reichsadler tattooed on his body, or the numerous neo-Nazi Putin-affiliated militants like Sparta Brigade, Somalia Brigade and others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Russians are f!cking depraved animals. The soldiers should be shown no mercy. I'm part Jewish and I'd rather support Azov than an army full of demonic rapists and murderers.

If Azov are Banderites (I would think not all of them, but some may be) and you are Jewish, I doubt you would be supporting them. The photos of their atrocities (systemic genocide of 100s of thousands of Poles and Jews during WW2) are actually out there and available, this is well documented and proven.

Azov is Banderites like the US military is Nazi - does Azov have some far right people - Nazi, Bandera or otherwise? Yes. Every country does - US, Russia, Germany, France, Poland, etc. Definitely not the majority or even a significant part of today’s Azov. The guy who founded Azov left to start a political party, which was completely unsuccessful.

Yes, you are right that systematic killing of Jews and Poles did occur in WW2 - but that is not the responsibility of today’s Azov battalion.

You are repeating Russian propaganda, which tries to paint the current Ukrainian state with the brush of WW2. If you want to do that, we should also discuss how Putin is basically the successor to the government that committed the Holodomor in Ukraine, and which is again cutting of vast numbers of civilians (in Mariupol for example) and depriving them of food and water and humanitarian passage out of the city to other areas of Ukraine.

I was responding to a post that was relevant to the Jewish perspective, which does brush up on WW2 history, so, no need to scream Russian Propaganda. I am not suggesting Putin has a foot to stand on pretending to liberate the world from Nazis, THAT would be Russian propaganda. I am pointing out that Azov does have nazi element, this is a different situation with closeted nazis in our army who aren't endorsed officially by our government, the fact that it is controversial isn't my invention. It's been covered here before. Your response is a typical whataboutism. If PP didn't mention Jewish perspective specifically I would not have brought it up.

Can you show where the Ukrainian gov't is endorsing the nazi element in the Azov battalion?

Azov Battalion is a nationalist organization which is a part of Ukrainian army and is fighting on its behalf. Some in this and other nationalists factions are fans of Bandera and consider him a national hero. It's not something you can just sweep under a rug, it's an uncomfortable topic for the international community at large, especially for those of Jewish heritage. This doesn't take away from this topic we are discussing here, the atrocities of this unfair and horrible invasion and it doesn't imply that the entire Azov consists entirely of Banderites, so I am not sure why you are so defensive in acknowledging it.

I believe the hysteria over Azovs being "Nazis" is overstated, outdated and defunct.
The Azov Battalion only represents less than 1% of Ukraine's military. Many of the original notorious neo-Nazi leaders and figures left the organization after 2014. And since 2017 there have been efforts by the Ukrainian government to remove Nazi ideology - even then, only around 15% of the Azov Battalion harbored any prior neo-Nazi affiliation. Now, in 2022 there are even Jews serving in the Azov Battalion. Meanwhile also consider that the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, is himself a Jew, grandson of a Jew who fought the Nazis in WWII, whose three brothers were murdered by Nazis in the Holocaust. Only a handful of nations have ever had a Jewish head of state. Ukraine elected a Jew with 73% of the vote. There is point after point after point that shoots holes in the theory that Ukraine is somehow a "Nazi" state. That "Nazi" narrative is desperate propaganda from the Putin regime - which has its own massive Nazi problem, such as the Wagner Group, founded by neo-Nazi Dmitri Utkin who has Nazi SS insignia and a Reichsadler tattooed on his body, or the numerous neo-Nazi Putin-affiliated militants like Sparta Brigade, Somalia Brigade and others.

PP isn't talking about Ukrainian army, she is talking specifically about Azov and only BECAUSE they are known to have nazi element and are identifying as a nationalist organization. Otherwise her post would make no sense whatsoever, and mentioning that she is part Jewish would have no meaning. Her message is this: "even if I am part Jewish I'd rather support nazi element because they are better than Russians, and as long as they kill Russian soldiers I support them." All I am saying is that there might be jews who have a different opinion about Azov specifically (not Ukraine or its army) and this gets classified as Russian propaganda.

Here is some hypothetical example. Imagine that there is an "evolved" version of KKK where only 15% of its members are sympathetic to the old KKK agendas, imagine that this organization has shipped to Ukraine as volunteers to fight on their side. Then someone says: "I'm part black and I'd rather support the "evolved" version of KKK because only 15% of them are sympathetic to the old agendas of KKK, the rest of them are nice people fighting the enemy of demonic animals" Then if you start wondering if other African Americans may have a different opinion you get flamed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Russians are f!cking depraved animals. The soldiers should be shown no mercy. I'm part Jewish and I'd rather support Azov than an army full of demonic rapists and murderers.

If Azov are Banderites (I would think not all of them, but some may be) and you are Jewish, I doubt you would be supporting them. The photos of their atrocities (systemic genocide of 100s of thousands of Poles and Jews during WW2) are actually out there and available, this is well documented and proven.

Azov is Banderites like the US military is Nazi - does Azov have some far right people - Nazi, Bandera or otherwise? Yes. Every country does - US, Russia, Germany, France, Poland, etc. Definitely not the majority or even a significant part of today’s Azov. The guy who founded Azov left to start a political party, which was completely unsuccessful.

Yes, you are right that systematic killing of Jews and Poles did occur in WW2 - but that is not the responsibility of today’s Azov battalion.

You are repeating Russian propaganda, which tries to paint the current Ukrainian state with the brush of WW2. If you want to do that, we should also discuss how Putin is basically the successor to the government that committed the Holodomor in Ukraine, and which is again cutting of vast numbers of civilians (in Mariupol for example) and depriving them of food and water and humanitarian passage out of the city to other areas of Ukraine.

I was responding to a post that was relevant to the Jewish perspective, which does brush up on WW2 history, so, no need to scream Russian Propaganda. I am not suggesting Putin has a foot to stand on pretending to liberate the world from Nazis, THAT would be Russian propaganda. I am pointing out that Azov does have nazi element, this is a different situation with closeted nazis in our army who aren't endorsed officially by our government, the fact that it is controversial isn't my invention. It's been covered here before. Your response is a typical whataboutism. If PP didn't mention Jewish perspective specifically I would not have brought it up.

Can you show where the Ukrainian gov't is endorsing the nazi element in the Azov battalion?

Azov Battalion is a nationalist organization which is a part of Ukrainian army and is fighting on its behalf. Some in this and other nationalists factions are fans of Bandera and consider him a national hero. It's not something you can just sweep under a rug, it's an uncomfortable topic for the international community at large, especially for those of Jewish heritage. This doesn't take away from this topic we are discussing here, the atrocities of this unfair and horrible invasion and it doesn't imply that the entire Azov consists entirely of Banderites, so I am not sure why you are so defensive in acknowledging it.

I believe the hysteria over Azovs being "Nazis" is overstated, outdated and defunct.
The Azov Battalion only represents less than 1% of Ukraine's military. Many of the original notorious neo-Nazi leaders and figures left the organization after 2014. And since 2017 there have been efforts by the Ukrainian government to remove Nazi ideology - even then, only around 15% of the Azov Battalion harbored any prior neo-Nazi affiliation. Now, in 2022 there are even Jews serving in the Azov Battalion. Meanwhile also consider that the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, is himself a Jew, grandson of a Jew who fought the Nazis in WWII, whose three brothers were murdered by Nazis in the Holocaust. Only a handful of nations have ever had a Jewish head of state. Ukraine elected a Jew with 73% of the vote. There is point after point after point that shoots holes in the theory that Ukraine is somehow a "Nazi" state. That "Nazi" narrative is desperate propaganda from the Putin regime - which has its own massive Nazi problem, such as the Wagner Group, founded by neo-Nazi Dmitri Utkin who has Nazi SS insignia and a Reichsadler tattooed on his body, or the numerous neo-Nazi Putin-affiliated militants like Sparta Brigade, Somalia Brigade and others.

PP isn't talking about Ukrainian army, she is talking specifically about Azov and only BECAUSE they are known to have nazi element and are identifying as a nationalist organization. Otherwise her post would make no sense whatsoever, and mentioning that she is part Jewish would have no meaning. Her message is this: "even if I am part Jewish I'd rather support nazi element because they are better than Russians, and as long as they kill Russian soldiers I support them." All I am saying is that there might be jews who have a different opinion about Azov specifically (not Ukraine or its army) and this gets classified as Russian propaganda.

Here is some hypothetical example. Imagine that there is an "evolved" version of KKK where only 15% of its members are sympathetic to the old KKK agendas, imagine that this organization has shipped to Ukraine as volunteers to fight on their side. Then someone says: "I'm part black and I'd rather support the "evolved" version of KKK because only 15% of them are sympathetic to the old agendas of KKK, the rest of them are nice people fighting the enemy of demonic animals" Then if you start wondering if other African Americans may have a different opinion you get flamed.

I am sure there are Jews who have a different opinion. Do you think all Jews are supposed to think the same way? That's anti-Semitism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Russians are f!cking depraved animals. The soldiers should be shown no mercy. I'm part Jewish and I'd rather support Azov than an army full of demonic rapists and murderers.

If Azov are Banderites (I would think not all of them, but some may be) and you are Jewish, I doubt you would be supporting them. The photos of their atrocities (systemic genocide of 100s of thousands of Poles and Jews during WW2) are actually out there and available, this is well documented and proven.

Azov is Banderites like the US military is Nazi - does Azov have some far right people - Nazi, Bandera or otherwise? Yes. Every country does - US, Russia, Germany, France, Poland, etc. Definitely not the majority or even a significant part of today’s Azov. The guy who founded Azov left to start a political party, which was completely unsuccessful.

Yes, you are right that systematic killing of Jews and Poles did occur in WW2 - but that is not the responsibility of today’s Azov battalion.

You are repeating Russian propaganda, which tries to paint the current Ukrainian state with the brush of WW2. If you want to do that, we should also discuss how Putin is basically the successor to the government that committed the Holodomor in Ukraine, and which is again cutting of vast numbers of civilians (in Mariupol for example) and depriving them of food and water and humanitarian passage out of the city to other areas of Ukraine.

I was responding to a post that was relevant to the Jewish perspective, which does brush up on WW2 history, so, no need to scream Russian Propaganda. I am not suggesting Putin has a foot to stand on pretending to liberate the world from Nazis, THAT would be Russian propaganda. I am pointing out that Azov does have nazi element, this is a different situation with closeted nazis in our army who aren't endorsed officially by our government, the fact that it is controversial isn't my invention. It's been covered here before. Your response is a typical whataboutism. If PP didn't mention Jewish perspective specifically I would not have brought it up.

Can you show where the Ukrainian gov't is endorsing the nazi element in the Azov battalion?

Azov Battalion is a nationalist organization which is a part of Ukrainian army and is fighting on its behalf. Some in this and other nationalists factions are fans of Bandera and consider him a national hero. It's not something you can just sweep under a rug, it's an uncomfortable topic for the international community at large, especially for those of Jewish heritage. This doesn't take away from this topic we are discussing here, the atrocities of this unfair and horrible invasion and it doesn't imply that the entire Azov consists entirely of Banderites, so I am not sure why you are so defensive in acknowledging it.

I believe the hysteria over Azovs being "Nazis" is overstated, outdated and defunct.
The Azov Battalion only represents less than 1% of Ukraine's military. Many of the original notorious neo-Nazi leaders and figures left the organization after 2014. And since 2017 there have been efforts by the Ukrainian government to remove Nazi ideology - even then, only around 15% of the Azov Battalion harbored any prior neo-Nazi affiliation. Now, in 2022 there are even Jews serving in the Azov Battalion. Meanwhile also consider that the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, is himself a Jew, grandson of a Jew who fought the Nazis in WWII, whose three brothers were murdered by Nazis in the Holocaust. Only a handful of nations have ever had a Jewish head of state. Ukraine elected a Jew with 73% of the vote. There is point after point after point that shoots holes in the theory that Ukraine is somehow a "Nazi" state. That "Nazi" narrative is desperate propaganda from the Putin regime - which has its own massive Nazi problem, such as the Wagner Group, founded by neo-Nazi Dmitri Utkin who has Nazi SS insignia and a Reichsadler tattooed on his body, or the numerous neo-Nazi Putin-affiliated militants like Sparta Brigade, Somalia Brigade and others.

PP isn't talking about Ukrainian army, she is talking specifically about Azov and only BECAUSE they are known to have nazi element and are identifying as a nationalist organization. Otherwise her post would make no sense whatsoever, and mentioning that she is part Jewish would have no meaning. Her message is this: "even if I am part Jewish I'd rather support nazi element because they are better than Russians, and as long as they kill Russian soldiers I support them." All I am saying is that there might be jews who have a different opinion about Azov specifically (not Ukraine or its army) and this gets classified as Russian propaganda.

Here is some hypothetical example. Imagine that there is an "evolved" version of KKK where only 15% of its members are sympathetic to the old KKK agendas, imagine that this organization has shipped to Ukraine as volunteers to fight on their side. Then someone says: "I'm part black and I'd rather support the "evolved" version of KKK because only 15% of them are sympathetic to the old agendas of KKK, the rest of them are nice people fighting the enemy of demonic animals" Then if you start wondering if other African Americans may have a different opinion you get flamed.

Now add to that, back in 2017 only 15% had KKK sympathies but since then there were significant efforts to remove any remaining KKK sympathies and ideologies to the point where now there are many blacks proudly serving in the so-called "KKK" battalion. That's the case with Azov and "Nazis" - de-Nazified to the point where now there are Jews proudly serving in the Azov Battalion.

Meanwhile on the other side there are NUMEROUS Russian battalions (it wasn't just Bucha, similar stories are emerging from Sumy, Chernihiv and other areas) that are raping, torturing, murdering civilians, looting their homes, razing villages to the ground and obliterating residential buildings, hospitals, schools and civilian infrastructure. Also NUMEROUS Russian and DPR units with strong neo-Nazi affiliations that are in Ukraine murdering Jews and Holocaust survivors.

And those of us who support Ukraine and Zelenskyy against Putin's bloody murderous regime get flamed for "yoU sUPpOrT NaZis!!!" and I just give them the fish eye because frankly I think their "Nazi" argument is disingenuous and in bad faith and the alternative is far far far worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Russians are f!cking depraved animals. The soldiers should be shown no mercy. I'm part Jewish and I'd rather support Azov than an army full of demonic rapists and murderers.

If Azov are Banderites (I would think not all of them, but some may be) and you are Jewish, I doubt you would be supporting them. The photos of their atrocities (systemic genocide of 100s of thousands of Poles and Jews during WW2) are actually out there and available, this is well documented and proven.

Azov is Banderites like the US military is Nazi - does Azov have some far right people - Nazi, Bandera or otherwise? Yes. Every country does - US, Russia, Germany, France, Poland, etc. Definitely not the majority or even a significant part of today’s Azov. The guy who founded Azov left to start a political party, which was completely unsuccessful.

Yes, you are right that systematic killing of Jews and Poles did occur in WW2 - but that is not the responsibility of today’s Azov battalion.

You are repeating Russian propaganda, which tries to paint the current Ukrainian state with the brush of WW2. If you want to do that, we should also discuss how Putin is basically the successor to the government that committed the Holodomor in Ukraine, and which is again cutting of vast numbers of civilians (in Mariupol for example) and depriving them of food and water and humanitarian passage out of the city to other areas of Ukraine.

I was responding to a post that was relevant to the Jewish perspective, which does brush up on WW2 history, so, no need to scream Russian Propaganda. I am not suggesting Putin has a foot to stand on pretending to liberate the world from Nazis, THAT would be Russian propaganda. I am pointing out that Azov does have nazi element, this is a different situation with closeted nazis in our army who aren't endorsed officially by our government, the fact that it is controversial isn't my invention. It's been covered here before. Your response is a typical whataboutism. If PP didn't mention Jewish perspective specifically I would not have brought it up.

Can you show where the Ukrainian gov't is endorsing the nazi element in the Azov battalion?

Azov Battalion is a nationalist organization which is a part of Ukrainian army and is fighting on its behalf. Some in this and other nationalists factions are fans of Bandera and consider him a national hero. It's not something you can just sweep under a rug, it's an uncomfortable topic for the international community at large, especially for those of Jewish heritage. This doesn't take away from this topic we are discussing here, the atrocities of this unfair and horrible invasion and it doesn't imply that the entire Azov consists entirely of Banderites, so I am not sure why you are so defensive in acknowledging it.

DP, perhaps because you previous statements conflated Azov of today with Azov of 2014 with Bandera of WW2, inappropriately implying that all Azov today supported Bandera and Nazis, which is simply not true. You are backing down now and making it clear you are only talking about some. Now you are trying to undermine the PP by describing her as “defensive” for simply asking for a cite to your prior comments in which you tried to say that the presence of US nazis in the US military is different from Ukraine because US Nazis are “closeted” and “not officially endorsed by our government”, implying that, by contrast, that Ukraine Nazis in Azov are uncloseted and endorsed by the Ukraine government. PP is rightfully asking for a citation to support your contention.

The Ukraine government of today doesn’t support the “nazi element” in Azov or eleswhere. To continue to argue and insinuate so is to reinforce one of the foundational myths of Putin’s rationale for war against Ukraine - that the Ukraine government supports Nazisim or are themselves Nazis. This claim is absurd for many reasons. And yet, the fact that you promulgate but then back off a bit when challenged and criticize your rhetorical opponents as “defensive” or “whataboutism” shows exactly how this kind of propaganda works.

For those that want a fact-based view of the relationship between Azov, Azov soldiers with Nazi beliefs and the Ukrainian government, please watch this 9 minute BBC piece by Ros Atkins.

[url]https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-60853404
[/url]

Why is this so important? Because the claim of Ukrainian Nazi influence is the foundation of current Russian attempts at the genocide of Ukraine.

Where does the post you are responding to mention Nazi influence as the foundation of the current Russian attempts at the genocide? In fact, it argues against this. Are you saying that if someone doesn't support Azov then they must support Russia? If this is what you are referring to, then you need to use some logical thinking. There are 2 circles, not one circle in this Venn diagram. You can be vehemently against Russia and pro-Ukraine, and yet not support Azov battalion just because they happen to fight for the good side in this war.

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Anonymous wrote:The Russians are f!cking depraved animals. The soldiers should be shown no mercy. I'm part Jewish and I'd rather support Azov than an army full of demonic rapists and murderers.

If Azov are Banderites (I would think not all of them, but some may be) and you are Jewish, I doubt you would be supporting them. The photos of their atrocities (systemic genocide of 100s of thousands of Poles and Jews during WW2) are actually out there and available, this is well documented and proven.

Azov is Banderites like the US military is Nazi - does Azov have some far right people - Nazi, Bandera or otherwise? Yes. Every country does - US, Russia, Germany, France, Poland, etc. Definitely not the majority or even a significant part of today’s Azov. The guy who founded Azov left to start a political party, which was completely unsuccessful.

Yes, you are right that systematic killing of Jews and Poles did occur in WW2 - but that is not the responsibility of today’s Azov battalion.

You are repeating Russian propaganda, which tries to paint the current Ukrainian state with the brush of WW2. If you want to do that, we should also discuss how Putin is basically the successor to the government that committed the Holodomor in Ukraine, and which is again cutting of vast numbers of civilians (in Mariupol for example) and depriving them of food and water and humanitarian passage out of the city to other areas of Ukraine.

I was responding to a post that was relevant to the Jewish perspective, which does brush up on WW2 history, so, no need to scream Russian Propaganda. I am not suggesting Putin has a foot to stand on pretending to liberate the world from Nazis, THAT would be Russian propaganda. I am pointing out that Azov does have nazi element, this is a different situation with closeted nazis in our army who aren't endorsed officially by our government, the fact that it is controversial isn't my invention. It's been covered here before. Your response is a typical whataboutism. If PP didn't mention Jewish perspective specifically I would not have brought it up.

Can you show where the Ukrainian gov't is endorsing the nazi element in the Azov battalion?

Azov Battalion is a nationalist organization which is a part of Ukrainian army and is fighting on its behalf. Some in this and other nationalists factions are fans of Bandera and consider him a national hero. It's not something you can just sweep under a rug, it's an uncomfortable topic for the international community at large, especially for those of Jewish heritage. This doesn't take away from this topic we are discussing here, the atrocities of this unfair and horrible invasion and it doesn't imply that the entire Azov consists entirely of Banderites, so I am not sure why you are so defensive in acknowledging it.

I believe the hysteria over Azovs being "Nazis" is overstated, outdated and defunct.
The Azov Battalion only represents less than 1% of Ukraine's military. Many of the original notorious neo-Nazi leaders and figures left the organization after 2014. And since 2017 there have been efforts by the Ukrainian government to remove Nazi ideology - even then, only around 15% of the Azov Battalion harbored any prior neo-Nazi affiliation. Now, in 2022 there are even Jews serving in the Azov Battalion. Meanwhile also consider that the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, is himself a Jew, grandson of a Jew who fought the Nazis in WWII, whose three brothers were murdered by Nazis in the Holocaust. Only a handful of nations have ever had a Jewish head of state. Ukraine elected a Jew with 73% of the vote. There is point after point after point that shoots holes in the theory that Ukraine is somehow a "Nazi" state. That "Nazi" narrative is desperate propaganda from the Putin regime - which has its own massive Nazi problem, such as the Wagner Group, founded by neo-Nazi Dmitri Utkin who has Nazi SS insignia and a Reichsadler tattooed on his body, or the numerous neo-Nazi Putin-affiliated militants like Sparta Brigade, Somalia Brigade and others.

PP isn't talking about Ukrainian army, she is talking specifically about Azov and only BECAUSE they are known to have nazi element and are identifying as a nationalist organization. Otherwise her post would make no sense whatsoever, and mentioning that she is part Jewish would have no meaning. Her message is this: "even if I am part Jewish I'd rather support nazi element because they are better than Russians, and as long as they kill Russian soldiers I support them." All I am saying is that there might be jews who have a different opinion about Azov specifically (not Ukraine or its army) and this gets classified as Russian propaganda.

Here is some hypothetical example. Imagine that there is an "evolved" version of KKK where only 15% of its members are sympathetic to the old KKK agendas, imagine that this organization has shipped to Ukraine as volunteers to fight on their side. Then someone says: "I'm part black and I'd rather support the "evolved" version of KKK because only 15% of them are sympathetic to the old agendas of KKK, the rest of them are nice people fighting the enemy of demonic animals" Then if you start wondering if other African Americans may have a different opinion you get flamed.

Now add to that, back in 2017 only 15% had KKK sympathies but since then there were significant efforts to remove any remaining KKK sympathies and ideologies to the point where now there are many blacks proudly serving in the so-called "KKK" battalion. That's the case with Azov and "Nazis" - de-Nazified to the point where now there are Jews proudly serving in the Azov Battalion.

Meanwhile on the other side there are NUMEROUS Russian battalions (it wasn't just Bucha, similar stories are emerging from Sumy, Chernihiv and other areas) that are raping, torturing, murdering civilians, looting their homes, razing villages to the ground and obliterating residential buildings, hospitals, schools and civilian infrastructure. Also NUMEROUS Russian and DPR units with strong neo-Nazi affiliations that are in Ukraine murdering Jews and Holocaust survivors.

And those of us who support Ukraine and Zelenskyy against Putin's bloody murderous regime get flamed for "yoU sUPpOrT NaZis!!!" and I just give them the fish eye because frankly I think their "Nazi" argument is disingenuous and in bad faith and the alternative is far far far worse.

You are just rambling so much nonsense. It's very simple. Azov is a faction of the Ukrainian army. You don't need to support Azov to be pro-Ukraine and against Russia in this war. This isn't a REQUIREMENT.

This holds for your counter-argument to my hypothetical "evolved" KKK scenario where many blacks may still not support this new KKK faction even if there are other blacks joining them.

In a situation where there is a strong bias in some groups based on their history the members of the biased group don't ALL have to agree and are more likely to disagree than the members of a non-biased group. Blacks are less likely to support the "new-KKK" even if they fight for the good side vs. other groups. Same goes for Jews who are less likely to support Azov than other nationalities based on their historical bias.