Cheating Scandal Triggering TJ Change

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, the TJ change was not prompted by outside prep companies. The "prep" is a red herring by a few "Karens" whose kids are lazy and lack talents to compete. They spent way more on travel sports prep.

The school board meetings' notes are public information. The board and Brabrand decided to implement a change prompted by very low admission numbers for URMs and the tragedy of George Floyd.

The "prep" issue is separate and should be addressed as such. The remedy is easy - shutting down all the prep companies or FCS offering similar prep for free to URMs.

On what legal basis would it be "easy" to shut down a prep company? The prep companies are retooling to help kids get into TJ under the revised criteria. And they are in it for the long haul, unlike the School Board members who just force changes for a short-lived, feel-good moment or two.

The only thing that puts the prep companies out of business is reduced demand for their services.

Honestly, if the result of the admissions changes is a reduction in the level of prestige that TJ enjoys while the educational product remains superior, all of this will have been worth it. Too many families seeking TJ for the prestige rather than the product.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, the TJ change was not prompted by outside prep companies. The "prep" is a red herring by a few "Karens" whose kids are lazy and lack talents to compete. They spent way more on travel sports prep.

The school board meetings' notes are public information. The board and Brabrand decided to implement a change prompted by very low admission numbers for URMs and the tragedy of George Floyd.

The "prep" issue is separate and should be addressed as such. The remedy is easy - shutting down all the prep companies or FCS offering similar prep for free to URMs.

Can you support that claim with any evidence?

Dr. Brabrand not only led the school district through a pandemic but also moderated several controversial meetings on how to improve the admissions process at the elite Thomas Jefferson High School.

“I believe our country, in the middle of this pandemic and the murder of George Floyd, has reached a moment...where we have to...relook at equity,” said Brabrand in October 2020.

You can find the meeting minutes of the school board online, I believe. It all started when 2024 admission stats showed the numbers for one racial group is "TS", too small to report.

Nowhere in these meetings you will find the outside prep was defined as a problem to address. It was a totally separate issue. I am not sure what the exact problem is for outside prep. If it is about cheating, illegal activities, and harming students' learning then FCPS can shut them down by some administrative actions? If there isn't a problem with regards to the actual learning provided but the cost barrier being an issue, then FCPS can offer similar classes for free to reduce that barrier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, the TJ change was not prompted by outside prep companies. The "prep" is a red herring by a few "Karens" whose kids are lazy and lack talents to compete. They spent way more on travel sports prep.

The school board meetings' notes are public information. The board and Brabrand decided to implement a change prompted by very low admission numbers for URMs and the tragedy of George Floyd.

The "prep" issue is separate and should be addressed as such. The remedy is easy - shutting down all the prep companies or FCS offering similar prep for free to URMs.

Can you support that claim with any evidence?

Dr. Brabrand not only led the school district through a pandemic but also moderated several controversial meetings on how to improve the admissions process at the elite Thomas Jefferson High School.

“I believe our country, in the middle of this pandemic and the murder of George Floyd, has reached a moment...where we have to...relook at equity,” said Brabrand in October 2020.

You can find the meeting minutes of the school board online, I believe. It all started when 2024 admission stats showed the numbers for one racial group is "TS", too small to report.

Nowhere in these meetings you will find the outside prep was defined as a problem to address. It was a totally separate issue. I am not sure what the exact problem is for outside prep. If it is about cheating, illegal activities, and harming students' learning then FCPS can shut them down by some administrative actions? If there isn't a problem with regards to the actual learning provided but the cost barrier being an issue, then FCPS can offer similar classes for free to reduce that barrier.

FCPS shouldn't be focusing all these resources on a few gifted students while ignoring everyone else. They need to make these resources available to all students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of Curie kids got in this year. My friend joined his DS in Curie this year. Looks like the changes FCPS made have a big boost to Curie.

Given that the number of students admitted from Curie reduced from 133 to about 90 this year (in a year where total admits went from 480 to 550), and that the percentage of FARMS students increased from about 1% to about 25%, I think it's safe to assume that the admissions changes had a negative impact on the prep market.

If it had a negative impact, then Curie's numbers should have dropped like a rock. They added a per school quota. Without this quota, it is likely that Curie's numbers would have gone up. It is the quota seats that didn't pay Curie.
Curie was able to prep for the essay better than they could prep for a math test, which in the end requires the students to do the work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of Curie kids got in this year. My friend joined his DS in Curie this year. Looks like the changes FCPS made have a big boost to Curie.

Given that the number of students admitted from Curie reduced from 133 to about 90 this year (in a year where total admits went from 480 to 550), and that the percentage of FARMS students increased from about 1% to about 25%, I think it's safe to assume that the admissions changes had a negative impact on the prep market.

If it had a negative impact, then Curie's numbers should have dropped like a rock. They added a per school quota. Without this quota, it is likely that Curie's numbers would have gone up. It is the quota seats that didn't pay Curie.
Curie was able to prep for the essay better than they could prep for a math test, which in the end requires the students to do the work.

All tutors and students willing to be prepared for exams do their homework. No use in crying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of Curie kids got in this year. My friend joined his DS in Curie this year. Looks like the changes FCPS made have a big boost to Curie.

Given that the number of students admitted from Curie reduced from 133 to about 90 this year (in a year where total admits went from 480 to 550), and that the percentage of FARMS students increased from about 1% to about 25%, I think it's safe to assume that the admissions changes had a negative impact on the prep market.

If it had a negative impact, then Curie's numbers should have dropped like a rock. They added a per school quota. Without this quota, it is likely that Curie's numbers would have gone up. It is the quota seats that didn't pay Curie.
Curie was able to prep for the essay better than they could prep for a math test, which in the end requires the students to do the work.

From what I heard, vast majority of the curie prep kids were already AAP and these kids are pre-screened before getting admitted. Apparently, their math curriculum is several months ahead of AAP math (Algebra HN and Geometry HN) in school and its very difficult for non-AAP kids to catch up and maintain the pace. Also, their math practice is more in depth than school focus more on the multi step word problems and kids are usually required to solve over 40 problems each week. So, kids who can manage this work load, would naturally do well in math at school or any tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of Curie kids got in this year. My friend joined his DS in Curie this year. Looks like the changes FCPS made have a big boost to Curie.

Given that the number of students admitted from Curie reduced from 133 to about 90 this year (in a year where total admits went from 480 to 550), and that the percentage of FARMS students increased from about 1% to about 25%, I think it's safe to assume that the admissions changes had a negative impact on the prep market.

If it had a negative impact, then Curie's numbers should have dropped like a rock. They added a per school quota. Without this quota, it is likely that Curie's numbers would have gone up. It is the quota seats that didn't pay Curie.
Curie was able to prep for the essay better than they could prep for a math test, which in the end requires the students to do the work.

Sounds like TJ got both the top preppers and the top preppers. Not sure it gets any better, but overall the most gifted from FCPS schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a white TJ graduate and I would be FINE if the percentage of white students stayed the same or (even better) went down, while the percentages of other under-represented minorities became more balanced across the board. I definitely don't care about making TJ white again. I do care about giving black and brown students (esp from disadvantaged backgrounds) a chance.

And, since I obv have no skin in the game as an old person alumni, I'll say that if my kid was applying to TJ (he isn't; we don't live in Fx anymore), I'd be fine if he wasn't accepted so that a student of color could attend. My kid gets lots of privilege from his parents' status as white people, and, while TJ might be a great opportunity for him, it's perfectly acceptable to me to give up a "spot" so others without that kind of systemic privilege have more opportunity.

Please don't assume that all alumni (or even most) support admission reform b/c they want TJ to be more white again.

I think it is about making TJ less Asian, than more white. This is systemic racism towards Asians. Most Asians are immigrants with no family money or white privilege backing them. They are not large enough to have a voice being still a minority community and many still have language barriers and poor writing skills. FCPS should not try to bring down one population at the expense of another.

Understand that if the top tier school is 80% Asian it is discriminatory to AA and Hispanics. Clearly the Asians are being admitted so they are not being discriminated against.

We do not do "separate but equal" education in the United States of American. It is illegal in the US and has been since the 1950's and 1960's.

If PP wants an Asian only school you will probably need to go to your home country. Not admitting AA and Hispanics into a school is illegal in the US.

We used to have separate but equal schools in the 1950's in Virginia. That was called segregation. It is illegal in the US.

Do you realize that the school is not actually picking someone because they are asian? The majority of the people doing the selection are white? There is no restriction of blacks and hispanics to apply to the school and they will be considered equally?

Do you even know the law?

I agree. The whole "separate but equal schools" logic made no sense to the earlier comment by some poster or on in the one from this poster. On the previous one, someone noted that you could start a program that fostered black and Hispanics in elementary school and middle schools to develop the STEM skills and create a robust applicant pool for TJ. To which, some poster noted "separate but equal." What the heck does that even mean? There's really no data to support that tons of blacks + Hispanics would qualify under the 3.5 GPA or that enough of them would be interested in a STEM school like TJ. What would actually make a difference is to grow that pool of candidates. Right now, FCPS is planning on doing nothing but set a lottery to absolve themselves from actually doing the hard work of BUILDING the applicant pool of black+Hispanic candidates. This is always the FCPS answer--do the least amount of work and call it "fixed."

That's why you seek diversity and representation at TJ, a STEM school. To foster black and Hispanics in high school to further develop their STEM skills and create a robust applicant pool for college and beyond. What is actually going to make a difference is that this will grow the pool of candidates for STEM programs and careers after high school graduation.

See how that works?

You clearly know nothing about developing STEM students if you think you do that when they get to high school. And at the most competitive STEM high schools in the country. You've lost the war! You have just created a bunch of frustrated kids who will want nothing to do with STEM fields and will likely transfer back to their base school after a semester or two. (This would happen to any student, irrespective of race.) The difference here, the Asians start at a very young age to develop the STEM skills in their kids. Test prepping aside, the primarily recipe for success with the Asian race--they start YOUNG! And they foster a culture of deep rigor at home, and often times, that means lots of prepping--prepping for a test, prepping for a recital, whatever it is, they prep for it. If you want to BUILD a STEM student, get to them in elementary school. The love of science and math is not something one conjurs up in 9th grade. It is a process. If you don't start young, you will not be able to actually develop the STEM child. If you don't develop the STEM child, the entire "lottery" plan will be an exercise in futility--you will likely yet again produce 6 kids of black+Hispanic background for yet another class.

NP. People do this in Europe too. And european immigrants similarly instill rigorous study and practice, and high expectations in their kids. It's american parents who want their kids to make it on their natural talent alone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a white TJ graduate and I would be FINE if the percentage of white students stayed the same or (even better) went down, while the percentages of other under-represented minorities became more balanced across the board. I definitely don't care about making TJ white again. I do care about giving black and brown students (esp from disadvantaged backgrounds) a chance.

And, since I obv have no skin in the game as an old person alumni, I'll say that if my kid was applying to TJ (he isn't; we don't live in Fx anymore), I'd be fine if he wasn't accepted so that a student of color could attend. My kid gets lots of privilege from his parents' status as white people, and, while TJ might be a great opportunity for him, it's perfectly acceptable to me to give up a "spot" so others without that kind of systemic privilege have more opportunity.

Please don't assume that all alumni (or even most) support admission reform b/c they want TJ to be more white again.

I think it is about making TJ less Asian, than more white. This is systemic racism towards Asians. Most Asians are immigrants with no family money or white privilege backing them. They are not large enough to have a voice being still a minority community and many still have language barriers and poor writing skills. FCPS should not try to bring down one population at the expense of another.

Understand that if the top tier school is 80% Asian it is discriminatory to AA and Hispanics. Clearly the Asians are being admitted so they are not being discriminated against.

We do not do "separate but equal" education in the United States of American. It is illegal in the US and has been since the 1950's and 1960's.

If PP wants an Asian only school you will probably need to go to your home country. Not admitting AA and Hispanics into a school is illegal in the US.

We used to have separate but equal schools in the 1950's in Virginia. That was called segregation. It is illegal in the US.

Do you realize that the school is not actually picking someone because they are asian? The majority of the people doing the selection are white? There is no restriction of blacks and hispanics to apply to the school and they will be considered equally?

Do you even know the law?

I agree. The whole "separate but equal schools" logic made no sense to the earlier comment by some poster or on in the one from this poster. On the previous one, someone noted that you could start a program that fostered black and Hispanics in elementary school and middle schools to develop the STEM skills and create a robust applicant pool for TJ. To which, some poster noted "separate but equal." What the heck does that even mean? There's really no data to support that tons of blacks + Hispanics would qualify under the 3.5 GPA or that enough of them would be interested in a STEM school like TJ. What would actually make a difference is to grow that pool of candidates. Right now, FCPS is planning on doing nothing but set a lottery to absolve themselves from actually doing the hard work of BUILDING the applicant pool of black+Hispanic candidates. This is always the FCPS answer--do the least amount of work and call it "fixed."

That's why you seek diversity and representation at TJ, a STEM school. To foster black and Hispanics in high school to further develop their STEM skills and create a robust applicant pool for college and beyond. What is actually going to make a difference is that this will grow the pool of candidates for STEM programs and careers after high school graduation.

See how that works?

You clearly know nothing about developing STEM students if you think you do that when they get to high school. And at the most competitive STEM high schools in the country. You've lost the war! You have just created a bunch of frustrated kids who will want nothing to do with STEM fields and will likely transfer back to their base school after a semester or two. (This would happen to any student, irrespective of race.) The difference here, the Asians start at a very young age to develop the STEM skills in their kids. Test prepping aside, the primarily recipe for success with the Asian race--they start YOUNG! And they foster a culture of deep rigor at home, and often times, that means lots of prepping--prepping for a test, prepping for a recital, whatever it is, they prep for it. If you want to BUILD a STEM student, get to them in elementary school. The love of science and math is not something one conjurs up in 9th grade. It is a process. If you don't start young, you will not be able to actually develop the STEM child. If you don't develop the STEM child, the entire "lottery" plan will be an exercise in futility--you will likely yet again produce 6 kids of black+Hispanic background for yet another class.

NP. People do this in Europe too. And european immigrants similarly instill rigorous study and practice, and high expectations in their kids. It's american parents who want their kids to make it on their natural talent alone.

NP. But the attitude about prepping can be found everywhere, too. Plenty of British parents complain and make fun of other parents who pay tons of money to tutors to get their mediocre kid into Westminster Under or through the 11+. Plenty of French parents complain and make fun of other parents who send their kid off to an academic "colonie de vacances" to prep them so they can keep up in CM1 or whatever. Plenty of German parents complain and make fun of other parents who pay for their Klasse 3 or Klasse 4 kid to go to Nachhilfe every day so their marks are good enough for a Gymnasium recommendation (where they then flounder without more constant tutoring). This is not a uniquely American issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of Curie kids got in this year. My friend joined his DS in Curie this year. Looks like the changes FCPS made have a big boost to Curie.

Given that the number of students admitted from Curie reduced from 133 to about 90 this year (in a year where total admits went from 480 to 550), and that the percentage of FARMS students increased from about 1% to about 25%, I think it's safe to assume that the admissions changes had a negative impact on the prep market.

If it had a negative impact, then Curie's numbers should have dropped like a rock. They added a per school quota. Without this quota, it is likely that Curie's numbers would have gone up. It is the quota seats that didn't pay Curie.
Curie was able to prep for the essay better than they could prep for a math test, which in the end requires the students to do the work.

TJ Prep centers are happy with a per school quota. More students are joining the prep centers!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I keep hearing that some cheating scandal from outside the Beltway was the primary agitator in VDOE and FCPS crackdown on the change at TJ. Is this true? Can someone help with recounting what this scandal was that will ultimately lead to the demise of this school?

1) It wasn't the primary agitator, but it certainly helped make the case for the previous process being incredibly flawed

2) It won't lead to the demise of the school, it'll just lead to a slightly different group of students being granted admission

FCPS won't throw just anyone with a 3.5 into the lottery. They will want the class of 2025 to succeed and will select for the lottery in accordance - and there will be plenty of extremely qualified Black and Hispanic students who apply as a consequence. No need to worry.

No one cares for getting Blacks and Hispanics. The big problem was that Asian-Americans were surpassing Whites. White people are claiming that Blacks and Hispanics are clamoring to get into TJ. This is the new White colonialism. The whole deal is to suppress qualified Asian-Americans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I keep hearing that some cheating scandal from outside the Beltway was the primary agitator in VDOE and FCPS crackdown on the change at TJ. Is this true? Can someone help with recounting what this scandal was that will ultimately lead to the demise of this school?

1) It wasn't the primary agitator, but it certainly helped make the case for the previous process being incredibly flawed

2) It won't lead to the demise of the school, it'll just lead to a slightly different group of students being granted admission

FCPS won't throw just anyone with a 3.5 into the lottery. They will want the class of 2025 to succeed and will select for the lottery in accordance - and there will be plenty of extremely qualified Black and Hispanic students who apply as a consequence. No need to worry.

No one cares for getting Blacks and Hispanics. The big problem was that Asian-Americans were surpassing Whites. White people are claiming that Blacks and Hispanics are clamoring to get into TJ. This is the new White colonialism. The whole deal is to suppress qualified Asian-Americans.

Exactly admissions are race-blind so this whole line of thinking is flawed. The real issue is parents want to cling to the privilege they've enjoyed of being able to buy admission through prep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Exactly admissions are race-blind so this whole line of thinking is flawed. The real issue is parents want to cling to the privilege they've enjoyed of being able to buy admission through prep.

Per school quota has nothing to do with prep, and everything to do with race.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Exactly admissions are race-blind so this whole line of thinking is flawed. The real issue is parents want to cling to the privilege they've enjoyed of being able to buy admission through prep.

Per school quota has nothing to do with prep, and everything to do with race.

This is pure conjecture. No direct evidence supports this. Sure, a group that makes up 15% of the county's population has occupied 70% of the seats now only has 60% because of a chance in policy. Let's keep this in perspective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
This is pure conjecture. No direct evidence supports this. Sure, a group that makes up 15% of the county's population has occupied 70% of the seats now only has 60% because of a chance in policy. Let's keep this in perspective.

Stop distorting the numbers to try to make your point. A group that makes up 20% of the FCPS population has occupied 73% of the seats and now only has 54%. So, the overrepresentation is not as drastic as you're making it out to be, and the reduction in Asian enrollment is twice as large as you're claiming.

The overrepresentation of Asian students of course has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that Asian cultures greatly value education and hard work.