Cheating Scandal Triggering TJ Change

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The $$$ test prep industry was aggravating the disparity in representation at TJ.

It wasn't the only issue, but it certainly was easier to address than the long-term effects of redlining.

What were the long term effects of redlining?

The population of non whites in fairfax was tiny
88k white, 9.7K blacks and no separately measurable hispanics to speak of in 1950 (also 100 asians and 40 all others combined)
260K white, 13.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1960 (also 900 asians and 94 all others combined)
435K white, 15.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1970 (also 2200 asians and 1100 all others combined)
539K white, 36K black , 26K all other minority combined in 1980.

How did they redline against the hispanics that weren't here?
And why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asians?

It wasn't test prep that was aggravating racial disparity at tj. It was any sort of merit based testing. For a few years people got it in their heads that tests were racist.

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

Expensive test prep certainly aggravated the disparity. Look at the results from the test prep companies.

So how did they redline against hispanics that weren't here?
Why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asian?

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

The only example presented was redlining and that seems like a stretch because of the demographics of fairfax during the redlining period.

So what systemic racism limited opportunities for brown immigrants of latin american descent but did not limit opportunities for the brown immigrants of indian descent?
They are both immigrant groups.
Systemic racism did not make the indian immigrants welathy and the hispanic immigrants poor.
Systemic racism did not make one group of parents well educated and the other not.
What is the racist system here that elevates asians ABOVE whites in academics and suppresses all other groups?
Why do racist systems seem to like indians so much?

Here is what I originally wrote but lost that comment and missed that part when I rushed to retype.
“it certainly was easier to address than, say, the long-term effects of redlining.”

And I never said all disparities are due to systemic racism. Here is what I said:
“There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.”


There are many, big issues in our society that aren’t easily fixed in a public school admissions process. BUT they can certainly try to reduce disparities caused by expensive test prep.

And it turns out that you are completely wrong about testing.

https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

??
I didn’t say anything about testing.

Testing with equal opportunity to prep is ideal.

It’s the $$$$ test prep that is inequitable.

unfortunately that doesn't exist and people will always find a way to game the system

Seriously don't let yourself off that easy. Khan academy books are like $20, the videos are free.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The $$$ test prep industry was aggravating the disparity in representation at TJ.

It wasn't the only issue, but it certainly was easier to address than the long-term effects of redlining.

What were the long term effects of redlining?

The population of non whites in fairfax was tiny
88k white, 9.7K blacks and no separately measurable hispanics to speak of in 1950 (also 100 asians and 40 all others combined)
260K white, 13.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1960 (also 900 asians and 94 all others combined)
435K white, 15.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1970 (also 2200 asians and 1100 all others combined)
539K white, 36K black , 26K all other minority combined in 1980.

How did they redline against the hispanics that weren't here?
And why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asians?

It wasn't test prep that was aggravating racial disparity at tj. It was any sort of merit based testing. For a few years people got it in their heads that tests were racist.

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

Expensive test prep certainly aggravated the disparity. Look at the results from the test prep companies.

So how did they redline against hispanics that weren't here?
Why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asian?

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

The only example presented was redlining and that seems like a stretch because of the demographics of fairfax during the redlining period.

So what systemic racism limited opportunities for brown immigrants of latin american descent but did not limit opportunities for the brown immigrants of indian descent?
They are both immigrant groups.
Systemic racism did not make the indian immigrants welathy and the hispanic immigrants poor.
Systemic racism did not make one group of parents well educated and the other not.
What is the racist system here that elevates asians ABOVE whites in academics and suppresses all other groups?
Why do racist systems seem to like indians so much?

Here is what I originally wrote but lost that comment and missed that part when I rushed to retype.
“it certainly was easier to address than, say, the long-term effects of redlining.”

And I never said all disparities are due to systemic racism. Here is what I said:
“There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.”


There are many, big issues in our society that aren’t easily fixed in a public school admissions process. BUT they can certainly try to reduce disparities caused by expensive test prep.

And it turns out that you are completely wrong about testing.

https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

??
I didn’t say anything about testing.

Testing with equal opportunity to prep is ideal.

It’s the $$$$ test prep that is inequitable.

unfortunately that doesn't exist and people will always find a way to game the system

Seriously don't let yourself off that easy. Khan academy books are like $20, the videos are free.

and are not even in the same league compared to what the prep centers offer (actual test answers)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The $$$ test prep industry was aggravating the disparity in representation at TJ.

It wasn't the only issue, but it certainly was easier to address than the long-term effects of redlining.

What were the long term effects of redlining?

The population of non whites in fairfax was tiny
88k white, 9.7K blacks and no separately measurable hispanics to speak of in 1950 (also 100 asians and 40 all others combined)
260K white, 13.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1960 (also 900 asians and 94 all others combined)
435K white, 15.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1970 (also 2200 asians and 1100 all others combined)
539K white, 36K black , 26K all other minority combined in 1980.

How did they redline against the hispanics that weren't here?
And why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asians?

It wasn't test prep that was aggravating racial disparity at tj. It was any sort of merit based testing. For a few years people got it in their heads that tests were racist.

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

Expensive test prep certainly aggravated the disparity. Look at the results from the test prep companies.

So how did they redline against hispanics that weren't here?
Why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asian?

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

The only example presented was redlining and that seems like a stretch because of the demographics of fairfax during the redlining period.

So what systemic racism limited opportunities for brown immigrants of latin american descent but did not limit opportunities for the brown immigrants of indian descent?
They are both immigrant groups.
Systemic racism did not make the indian immigrants welathy and the hispanic immigrants poor.
Systemic racism did not make one group of parents well educated and the other not.
What is the racist system here that elevates asians ABOVE whites in academics and suppresses all other groups?
Why do racist systems seem to like indians so much?

Here is what I originally wrote but lost that comment and missed that part when I rushed to retype.
“it certainly was easier to address than, say, the long-term effects of redlining.”

And I never said all disparities are due to systemic racism. Here is what I said:
“There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.”


There are many, big issues in our society that aren’t easily fixed in a public school admissions process. BUT they can certainly try to reduce disparities caused by expensive test prep.

And it turns out that you are completely wrong about testing.

https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

??
I didn’t say anything about testing.

Testing with equal opportunity to prep is ideal.

It’s the $$$$ test prep that is inequitable.

unfortunately that doesn't exist and people will always find a way to game the system

Seriously don't let yourself off that easy. Khan academy books are like $20, the videos are free.

If those were any good people wouldn't be dropping thousands on prep, but they do because they aren't comparable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The $$$ test prep industry was aggravating the disparity in representation at TJ.

It wasn't the only issue, but it certainly was easier to address than the long-term effects of redlining.

What were the long term effects of redlining?

The population of non whites in fairfax was tiny
88k white, 9.7K blacks and no separately measurable hispanics to speak of in 1950 (also 100 asians and 40 all others combined)
260K white, 13.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1960 (also 900 asians and 94 all others combined)
435K white, 15.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1970 (also 2200 asians and 1100 all others combined)
539K white, 36K black , 26K all other minority combined in 1980.

How did they redline against the hispanics that weren't here?
And why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asians?

It wasn't test prep that was aggravating racial disparity at tj. It was any sort of merit based testing. For a few years people got it in their heads that tests were racist.

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

Expensive test prep certainly aggravated the disparity. Look at the results from the test prep companies.

So how did they redline against hispanics that weren't here?
Why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asian?

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

The only example presented was redlining and that seems like a stretch because of the demographics of fairfax during the redlining period.

So what systemic racism limited opportunities for brown immigrants of latin american descent but did not limit opportunities for the brown immigrants of indian descent?
They are both immigrant groups.
Systemic racism did not make the indian immigrants welathy and the hispanic immigrants poor.
Systemic racism did not make one group of parents well educated and the other not.
What is the racist system here that elevates asians ABOVE whites in academics and suppresses all other groups?
Why do racist systems seem to like indians so much?

Here is what I originally wrote but lost that comment and missed that part when I rushed to retype.
“it certainly was easier to address than, say, the long-term effects of redlining.”

And I never said all disparities are due to systemic racism. Here is what I said:
“There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.”


There are many, big issues in our society that aren’t easily fixed in a public school admissions process. BUT they can certainly try to reduce disparities caused by expensive test prep.

And it turns out that you are completely wrong about testing.

https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

??
I didn’t say anything about testing.

Testing with equal opportunity to prep is ideal.

It’s the $$$$ test prep that is inequitable.

unfortunately that doesn't exist and people will always find a way to game the system

Seriously don't let yourself off that easy. Khan academy books are like $20, the videos are free.

and are not even in the same league compared to what the prep centers offer (actual test answers)

We've gone over this. You are lying.
When pushed on this all we get is that some test prep centers asked previous students about the questions on the test they just took. If they published the test questions, then they wouldn't have this advantage.

There is nothing in those expensive test prep courses that you don't see on khan academy. What the expensive test prep courses give you is a lot of handholding and walking you through stuff. This does make test prep easier but there is no secret sauce at those test prep centers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The $$$ test prep industry was aggravating the disparity in representation at TJ.

It wasn't the only issue, but it certainly was easier to address than the long-term effects of redlining.

What were the long term effects of redlining?

The population of non whites in fairfax was tiny
88k white, 9.7K blacks and no separately measurable hispanics to speak of in 1950 (also 100 asians and 40 all others combined)
260K white, 13.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1960 (also 900 asians and 94 all others combined)
435K white, 15.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1970 (also 2200 asians and 1100 all others combined)
539K white, 36K black , 26K all other minority combined in 1980.

How did they redline against the hispanics that weren't here?
And why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asians?

It wasn't test prep that was aggravating racial disparity at tj. It was any sort of merit based testing. For a few years people got it in their heads that tests were racist.

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

Expensive test prep certainly aggravated the disparity. Look at the results from the test prep companies.

So how did they redline against hispanics that weren't here?
Why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asian?

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

The only example presented was redlining and that seems like a stretch because of the demographics of fairfax during the redlining period.

So what systemic racism limited opportunities for brown immigrants of latin american descent but did not limit opportunities for the brown immigrants of indian descent?
They are both immigrant groups.
Systemic racism did not make the indian immigrants welathy and the hispanic immigrants poor.
Systemic racism did not make one group of parents well educated and the other not.
What is the racist system here that elevates asians ABOVE whites in academics and suppresses all other groups?
Why do racist systems seem to like indians so much?

Here is what I originally wrote but lost that comment and missed that part when I rushed to retype.
“it certainly was easier to address than, say, the long-term effects of redlining.”

And I never said all disparities are due to systemic racism. Here is what I said:
“There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.”


There are many, big issues in our society that aren’t easily fixed in a public school admissions process. BUT they can certainly try to reduce disparities caused by expensive test prep.

And it turns out that you are completely wrong about testing.

https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

??
I didn’t say anything about testing.

Testing with equal opportunity to prep is ideal.

It’s the $$$$ test prep that is inequitable.

unfortunately that doesn't exist and people will always find a way to game the system

Seriously don't let yourself off that easy. Khan academy books are like $20, the videos are free.

If those were any good people wouldn't be dropping thousands on prep, but they do because they aren't comparable.

Of course there is an advantage but the advantage is not because there is some secret that some small business in northern virginia knows that the khan academy doesn't.
The advantage is that it removes much of the motivation and discipline that your child would need to get through the khan academy stuff.

The fact that people buy an expensive thing doesn't mean the less expensive thing isn't any good.
I mean people buy rolexes but a timex keeps time just fine.

Of course there is an incremental benefit of having a teacher walk you through things but there is nothing being taught at those test prep courses that khan academy doesn't know about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The $$$ test prep industry was aggravating the disparity in representation at TJ.

It wasn't the only issue, but it certainly was easier to address than the long-term effects of redlining.

What were the long term effects of redlining?

The population of non whites in fairfax was tiny
88k white, 9.7K blacks and no separately measurable hispanics to speak of in 1950 (also 100 asians and 40 all others combined)
260K white, 13.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1960 (also 900 asians and 94 all others combined)
435K white, 15.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1970 (also 2200 asians and 1100 all others combined)
539K white, 36K black , 26K all other minority combined in 1980.

How did they redline against the hispanics that weren't here?
And why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asians?

It wasn't test prep that was aggravating racial disparity at tj. It was any sort of merit based testing. For a few years people got it in their heads that tests were racist.

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

Expensive test prep certainly aggravated the disparity. Look at the results from the test prep companies.

So how did they redline against hispanics that weren't here?
Why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asian?

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

The only example presented was redlining and that seems like a stretch because of the demographics of fairfax during the redlining period.

So what systemic racism limited opportunities for brown immigrants of latin american descent but did not limit opportunities for the brown immigrants of indian descent?
They are both immigrant groups.
Systemic racism did not make the indian immigrants welathy and the hispanic immigrants poor.
Systemic racism did not make one group of parents well educated and the other not.
What is the racist system here that elevates asians ABOVE whites in academics and suppresses all other groups?
Why do racist systems seem to like indians so much?

Here is what I originally wrote but lost that comment and missed that part when I rushed to retype.
“it certainly was easier to address than, say, the long-term effects of redlining.”

And I never said all disparities are due to systemic racism. Here is what I said:
“There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.”


There are many, big issues in our society that aren’t easily fixed in a public school admissions process. BUT they can certainly try to reduce disparities caused by expensive test prep.

And it turns out that you are completely wrong about testing.

https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

??
I didn’t say anything about testing.

Testing with equal opportunity to prep is ideal.

It’s the $$$$ test prep that is inequitable.

unfortunately that doesn't exist and people will always find a way to game the system

Seriously don't let yourself off that easy. Khan academy books are like $20, the videos are free.

and are not even in the same league compared to what the prep centers offer (actual test answers)

We've gone over this. You are lying.
When pushed on this all we get is that some test prep centers asked previous students about the questions on the test they just took. If they published the test questions, then they wouldn't have this advantage.

There is nothing in those expensive test prep courses that you don't see on khan academy. What the expensive test prep courses give you is a lot of handholding and walking you through stuff. This does make test prep easier but there is no secret sauce at those test prep centers.

You get more useful information about how an applicant fits into a school that values innovation if they take a test for which they can’t prep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The $$$ test prep industry was aggravating the disparity in representation at TJ.

It wasn't the only issue, but it certainly was easier to address than the long-term effects of redlining.

What were the long term effects of redlining?

The population of non whites in fairfax was tiny
88k white, 9.7K blacks and no separately measurable hispanics to speak of in 1950 (also 100 asians and 40 all others combined)
260K white, 13.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1960 (also 900 asians and 94 all others combined)
435K white, 15.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1970 (also 2200 asians and 1100 all others combined)
539K white, 36K black , 26K all other minority combined in 1980.

How did they redline against the hispanics that weren't here?
And why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asians?

It wasn't test prep that was aggravating racial disparity at tj. It was any sort of merit based testing. For a few years people got it in their heads that tests were racist.

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

Expensive test prep certainly aggravated the disparity. Look at the results from the test prep companies.

So how did they redline against hispanics that weren't here?
Why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asian?

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

The only example presented was redlining and that seems like a stretch because of the demographics of fairfax during the redlining period.

So what systemic racism limited opportunities for brown immigrants of latin american descent but did not limit opportunities for the brown immigrants of indian descent?
They are both immigrant groups.
Systemic racism did not make the indian immigrants welathy and the hispanic immigrants poor.
Systemic racism did not make one group of parents well educated and the other not.
What is the racist system here that elevates asians ABOVE whites in academics and suppresses all other groups?
Why do racist systems seem to like indians so much?

Here is what I originally wrote but lost that comment and missed that part when I rushed to retype.
“it certainly was easier to address than, say, the long-term effects of redlining.”

And I never said all disparities are due to systemic racism. Here is what I said:
“There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.”


There are many, big issues in our society that aren’t easily fixed in a public school admissions process. BUT they can certainly try to reduce disparities caused by expensive test prep.

And it turns out that you are completely wrong about testing.

https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

??
I didn’t say anything about testing.

Testing with equal opportunity to prep is ideal.

It’s the $$$$ test prep that is inequitable.

unfortunately that doesn't exist and people will always find a way to game the system

Seriously don't let yourself off that easy. Khan academy books are like $20, the videos are free.

and are not even in the same league compared to what the prep centers offer (actual test answers)

We've gone over this. You are lying.
When pushed on this all we get is that some test prep centers asked previous students about the questions on the test they just took. If they published the test questions, then they wouldn't have this advantage.

There is nothing in those expensive test prep courses that you don't see on khan academy. What the expensive test prep courses give you is a lot of handholding and walking you through stuff. This does make test prep easier but there is no secret sauce at those test prep centers.

Where does khan academy cover quant-q?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The $$$ test prep industry was aggravating the disparity in representation at TJ.

It wasn't the only issue, but it certainly was easier to address than the long-term effects of redlining.

What were the long term effects of redlining?

The population of non whites in fairfax was tiny
88k white, 9.7K blacks and no separately measurable hispanics to speak of in 1950 (also 100 asians and 40 all others combined)
260K white, 13.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1960 (also 900 asians and 94 all others combined)
435K white, 15.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1970 (also 2200 asians and 1100 all others combined)
539K white, 36K black , 26K all other minority combined in 1980.

How did they redline against the hispanics that weren't here?
And why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asians?

It wasn't test prep that was aggravating racial disparity at tj. It was any sort of merit based testing. For a few years people got it in their heads that tests were racist.

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

Expensive test prep certainly aggravated the disparity. Look at the results from the test prep companies.

So how did they redline against hispanics that weren't here?
Why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asian?

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

The only example presented was redlining and that seems like a stretch because of the demographics of fairfax during the redlining period.

So what systemic racism limited opportunities for brown immigrants of latin american descent but did not limit opportunities for the brown immigrants of indian descent?
They are both immigrant groups.
Systemic racism did not make the indian immigrants welathy and the hispanic immigrants poor.
Systemic racism did not make one group of parents well educated and the other not.
What is the racist system here that elevates asians ABOVE whites in academics and suppresses all other groups?
Why do racist systems seem to like indians so much?

Here is what I originally wrote but lost that comment and missed that part when I rushed to retype.
“it certainly was easier to address than, say, the long-term effects of redlining.”

And I never said all disparities are due to systemic racism. Here is what I said:
“There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.”


There are many, big issues in our society that aren’t easily fixed in a public school admissions process. BUT they can certainly try to reduce disparities caused by expensive test prep.

And it turns out that you are completely wrong about testing.

https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

??
I didn’t say anything about testing.

Testing with equal opportunity to prep is ideal.

It’s the $$$$ test prep that is inequitable.

unfortunately that doesn't exist and people will always find a way to game the system

Seriously don't let yourself off that easy. Khan academy books are like $20, the videos are free.

and are not even in the same league compared to what the prep centers offer (actual test answers)

We've gone over this. You are lying.
When pushed on this all we get is that some test prep centers asked previous students about the questions on the test they just took. If they published the test questions, then they wouldn't have this advantage.

There is nothing in those expensive test prep courses that you don't see on khan academy. What the expensive test prep courses give you is a lot of handholding and walking you through stuff. This does make test prep easier but there is no secret sauce at those test prep centers.

We are an Indian family - our kid went to Curie and is in TJ. I will say this - The Khan Academy videos/books are not comparable to the Curie center and other prep centers. Yes the Prep centers teach the concepts, give lots of questions from prior exams and that is the reason they charge 1000s of dollars. There is definitely an edge families who use these prep centers have over those that do not. So all these comments coming from families who go to prep centers and say there is nothing different in them, are false.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/906227.page

Guys, this is as close to the "scandal" as I can find. One prep center was doing too good. I can see they prepped similar tests and the students, in their excitement and remember they are 14, boasted that they got the "exact" prep question.

Harvesting past test question isn't cheating. Guys.

DP. Agree.

Plus: THIS THREAD WAS STARTED FOUR (4) YEARS AGO !! But someone bumped it: WHY??

Seems clear that someone out there has a major grudge against TJ, the Curie test prep center, or both.

To that person: please who you are and what your motive is here?

I've been as big a contributor to this discussion as anyone. My intent in initially bringing the matter to light was to highlight the fact that there had been students getting into TJ for years on largely false pretenses.

What happened at Curie (and folks, please stop arguing that it didn't happen - you're living in an alternate reality) was designed to create imbalances in the TJ Admissions process, and did so successfully.

Worse yet, the flagship course that created these imbalances and provided undeserved advantages:
- were available for the low, low price of $5,000;
- committed students to 16 months of targeted study specifically to crack the TJ exam, which was supposed to be secured;
- appeared based on their published list to be only available to students of South Asian descent.

Did Curie do anything wrong? The answer is probably no. But did they expose a massive flaw in the TJ Admissions process that needed to be rectified, creating conditions that led to the adoption of the new admissions process so reviled by the community that they aim to exclusively serve? Yes, yes they did.

As I've said many times before, I bear no specific ill will towards Curie, except inasmuch as they are part of the very problematic industry that seeks to create imbalances in elite school admissions processes that favor families with resources. All I ever wanted was for FCPS to adjust the TJ Admissions process so that families would not be directly and obviously rewarded for participating in that industry.

And again, I and my people won. Convincingly, resoundingly, and with yet another 12-0 School Board and with the Supreme Court declining to take the case, seemingly permanently.

Again, saying you "won" is meaningless.

Your barometer is in part a 12-0 vote from a school board to support a resolution it created itself - with well-known dubious motives - after its members paid a PR firm to tell themselves what a good idea it was. The school board is a political body, and anyone knows that policies that look like they support equity receive overwhelming popular support, independent of their merit. Nobody's surprised by a unanimous vote from this echo chamber.

As to the Suproeme Court, realize that we live in America, where stupid, self-defeating ideas are legal, and hypocrisy isn't illegal up to a point. A failure of the Supreme Court to hear the case should not be interpreted as a success.

What you've accomplished is to push forward an unsatisfactory policy in wait of a better one to replace it. Yet you're harming the ability to do so by throwing around silly phrases like "we won".

The failure of the supreme court to hear this case highlights the fact that facially neutral laws are not violations of the 14th amendment merely because they were born of racist motives.
It took the voting rights act explicitly outlawing literacy tests and poll taxes, they didn't get outlawed by the civil rights act or the 14th amendment.
It's why racially motivated voter ID laws are perfectly legal, because they are in fact facially neutral.
This new admissions process is basically a modified lottery and is non-discriminatory, almost by definition (it also doesn't filter for merit).

We probably can't win this one in the courts.
We will have to win at the ballot box.

It does filter for “merit”.

30% of the students in FCPS are qualified to apply. After that it's so subjective that it's basically random.

So a lottery for merit students. Sounds good to me.

Only 20% of students get into AAP.

Picking TJ admits from a pool of 30% of 8th graders is merit in a very mediocre world.
So it is a lottery with a very low hurdle for merit.
We are not anywhere close to picking the best students.

Depends on how you define “best”.

No, it doesn't. Picking randomly from the top 30% of students is not "best" under any reasonable definition.

It could be the best allocation of seats for interested kids across the county.

It's the best method of increasing urm without express racial discrimination.

If merit has any value at all then you could have this exact same process plus a test so that you at least get the most capable kids from each of the schools.

There is certainly room for improvement in the current process, but it’s much better than the last one.

Yes, of your primary concern is racial balancing

That's illegal in the US. If you can show that's going on you can win a multi-million dollar lawsuit. Good luck!

Wanting racial balance is not illegal. Changing a merit based process to a race neutral process that de-emphasizes merit in order to achieve more racial balancing is not illegal. That's not affirmative action. No race is getting a preference in the process. The intent behind the change was race driven but the process itself is not racially discriminatory.

Yes, but it is illegal to consider race for selection to these programs in the US. That is why the process is RACE BLIND.

How is it race blind when 80% of the kids still continue to be from just 2 races, batch after batch. And most of the kids in TJ have had elder siblings in TJ. How do so many families have both kids in TJ - what are the chances?Find it hard to believe, but almost all kids in DDs batch seem to have had their elder siblings pass out from TJ. How is that even possible if the admission process was neutral and unbiased !

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The $$$ test prep industry was aggravating the disparity in representation at TJ.

It wasn't the only issue, but it certainly was easier to address than the long-term effects of redlining.

What were the long term effects of redlining?

The population of non whites in fairfax was tiny
88k white, 9.7K blacks and no separately measurable hispanics to speak of in 1950 (also 100 asians and 40 all others combined)
260K white, 13.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1960 (also 900 asians and 94 all others combined)
435K white, 15.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1970 (also 2200 asians and 1100 all others combined)
539K white, 36K black , 26K all other minority combined in 1980.

How did they redline against the hispanics that weren't here?
And why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asians?

It wasn't test prep that was aggravating racial disparity at tj. It was any sort of merit based testing. For a few years people got it in their heads that tests were racist.

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

Expensive test prep certainly aggravated the disparity. Look at the results from the test prep companies.

So how did they redline against hispanics that weren't here?
Why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asian?

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

The only example presented was redlining and that seems like a stretch because of the demographics of fairfax during the redlining period.

So what systemic racism limited opportunities for brown immigrants of latin american descent but did not limit opportunities for the brown immigrants of indian descent?
They are both immigrant groups.
Systemic racism did not make the indian immigrants welathy and the hispanic immigrants poor.
Systemic racism did not make one group of parents well educated and the other not.
What is the racist system here that elevates asians ABOVE whites in academics and suppresses all other groups?
Why do racist systems seem to like indians so much?

Here is what I originally wrote but lost that comment and missed that part when I rushed to retype.
“it certainly was easier to address than, say, the long-term effects of redlining.”

And I never said all disparities are due to systemic racism. Here is what I said:
“There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.”


There are many, big issues in our society that aren’t easily fixed in a public school admissions process. BUT they can certainly try to reduce disparities caused by expensive test prep.

And it turns out that you are completely wrong about testing.

https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

??
I didn’t say anything about testing.

Testing with equal opportunity to prep is ideal.

It’s the $$$$ test prep that is inequitable.

unfortunately that doesn't exist and people will always find a way to game the system

Seriously don't let yourself off that easy. Khan academy books are like $20, the videos are free.

and are not even in the same league compared to what the prep centers offer (actual test answers)

We've gone over this. You are lying.
When pushed on this all we get is that some test prep centers asked previous students about the questions on the test they just took. If they published the test questions, then they wouldn't have this advantage.

There is nothing in those expensive test prep courses that you don't see on khan academy. What the expensive test prep courses give you is a lot of handholding and walking you through stuff. This does make test prep easier but there is no secret sauce at those test prep centers.

You get more useful information about how an applicant fits into a school that values innovation if they take a test for which they can’t prep.

First of all, the school obviously values skin color more than "innovation"
Otherwise they wouldn't have made the change they did.

Second, how does a secret test measure innovation any better than an IQ test?
Things like creativity and innovation correlate pretty well with IQ.
We know how to measure IQ, we don't need to ambush people on tests to measure it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The $$$ test prep industry was aggravating the disparity in representation at TJ.

It wasn't the only issue, but it certainly was easier to address than the long-term effects of redlining.

What were the long term effects of redlining?

The population of non whites in fairfax was tiny
88k white, 9.7K blacks and no separately measurable hispanics to speak of in 1950 (also 100 asians and 40 all others combined)
260K white, 13.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1960 (also 900 asians and 94 all others combined)
435K white, 15.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1970 (also 2200 asians and 1100 all others combined)
539K white, 36K black , 26K all other minority combined in 1980.

How did they redline against the hispanics that weren't here?
And why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asians?

It wasn't test prep that was aggravating racial disparity at tj. It was any sort of merit based testing. For a few years people got it in their heads that tests were racist.

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

Expensive test prep certainly aggravated the disparity. Look at the results from the test prep companies.

So how did they redline against hispanics that weren't here?
Why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asian?

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

The only example presented was redlining and that seems like a stretch because of the demographics of fairfax during the redlining period.

So what systemic racism limited opportunities for brown immigrants of latin american descent but did not limit opportunities for the brown immigrants of indian descent?
They are both immigrant groups.
Systemic racism did not make the indian immigrants welathy and the hispanic immigrants poor.
Systemic racism did not make one group of parents well educated and the other not.
What is the racist system here that elevates asians ABOVE whites in academics and suppresses all other groups?
Why do racist systems seem to like indians so much?

Here is what I originally wrote but lost that comment and missed that part when I rushed to retype.
“it certainly was easier to address than, say, the long-term effects of redlining.”

And I never said all disparities are due to systemic racism. Here is what I said:
“There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.”


There are many, big issues in our society that aren’t easily fixed in a public school admissions process. BUT they can certainly try to reduce disparities caused by expensive test prep.

And it turns out that you are completely wrong about testing.

https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

??
I didn’t say anything about testing.

Testing with equal opportunity to prep is ideal.

It’s the $$$$ test prep that is inequitable.

unfortunately that doesn't exist and people will always find a way to game the system

Seriously don't let yourself off that easy. Khan academy books are like $20, the videos are free.

and are not even in the same league compared to what the prep centers offer (actual test answers)

We've gone over this. You are lying.
When pushed on this all we get is that some test prep centers asked previous students about the questions on the test they just took. If they published the test questions, then they wouldn't have this advantage.

There is nothing in those expensive test prep courses that you don't see on khan academy. What the expensive test prep courses give you is a lot of handholding and walking you through stuff. This does make test prep easier but there is no secret sauce at those test prep centers.

Where does khan academy cover quant-q?

That's the point, Quant Q is bad because it doesn't give khan academy access.

Quotesd from above:

"When pushed on this all we get is that some test prep centers asked previous students about the questions on the test they just took. If they published the test questions, then they wouldn't have this advantage. "

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The $$$ test prep industry was aggravating the disparity in representation at TJ.

It wasn't the only issue, but it certainly was easier to address than the long-term effects of redlining.

What were the long term effects of redlining?

The population of non whites in fairfax was tiny
88k white, 9.7K blacks and no separately measurable hispanics to speak of in 1950 (also 100 asians and 40 all others combined)
260K white, 13.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1960 (also 900 asians and 94 all others combined)
435K white, 15.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1970 (also 2200 asians and 1100 all others combined)
539K white, 36K black , 26K all other minority combined in 1980.

How did they redline against the hispanics that weren't here?
And why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asians?

It wasn't test prep that was aggravating racial disparity at tj. It was any sort of merit based testing. For a few years people got it in their heads that tests were racist.

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

Expensive test prep certainly aggravated the disparity. Look at the results from the test prep companies.

So how did they redline against hispanics that weren't here?
Why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asian?

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

The only example presented was redlining and that seems like a stretch because of the demographics of fairfax during the redlining period.

So what systemic racism limited opportunities for brown immigrants of latin american descent but did not limit opportunities for the brown immigrants of indian descent?
They are both immigrant groups.
Systemic racism did not make the indian immigrants welathy and the hispanic immigrants poor.
Systemic racism did not make one group of parents well educated and the other not.
What is the racist system here that elevates asians ABOVE whites in academics and suppresses all other groups?
Why do racist systems seem to like indians so much?

Here is what I originally wrote but lost that comment and missed that part when I rushed to retype.
“it certainly was easier to address than, say, the long-term effects of redlining.”

And I never said all disparities are due to systemic racism. Here is what I said:
“There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.”


There are many, big issues in our society that aren’t easily fixed in a public school admissions process. BUT they can certainly try to reduce disparities caused by expensive test prep.

And it turns out that you are completely wrong about testing.

https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

??
I didn’t say anything about testing.

Testing with equal opportunity to prep is ideal.

It’s the $$$$ test prep that is inequitable.

unfortunately that doesn't exist and people will always find a way to game the system

Seriously don't let yourself off that easy. Khan academy books are like $20, the videos are free.

and are not even in the same league compared to what the prep centers offer (actual test answers)

We've gone over this. You are lying.
When pushed on this all we get is that some test prep centers asked previous students about the questions on the test they just took. If they published the test questions, then they wouldn't have this advantage.

There is nothing in those expensive test prep courses that you don't see on khan academy. What the expensive test prep courses give you is a lot of handholding and walking you through stuff. This does make test prep easier but there is no secret sauce at those test prep centers.

We are an Indian family - our kid went to Curie and is in TJ. I will say this - The Khan Academy videos/books are not comparable to the Curie center and other prep centers. Yes the Prep centers teach the concepts, give lots of questions from prior exams and that is the reason they charge 1000s of dollars. There is definitely an edge families who use these prep centers have over those that do not. So all these comments coming from families who go to prep centers and say there is nothing different in them, are false.

The argument here isn't that there is no advantage to test prep. The argument is that test prep is somewhere between unfair and outright cheating.
The specific argument is that curie students are cheating and THAT is why curie students have had so much success.

Quoted from above:

"Of course there is an advantage but the advantage is not because there is some secret that some small business in northern virginia knows that the khan academy doesn't.
The advantage is that it removes much of the motivation and discipline that your child would need to get through the khan academy stuff."

It's like hiring a physical trainer. They keep you disciplined and accountable but in the end they can't run the treadmill for you or lift the weights for you. And if you are motivated, you probably don't need the trainer.

Khan academy ALSO teaches the concepts and has questions from previous exams.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/906227.page

Guys, this is as close to the "scandal" as I can find. One prep center was doing too good. I can see they prepped similar tests and the students, in their excitement and remember they are 14, boasted that they got the "exact" prep question.

Harvesting past test question isn't cheating. Guys.

DP. Agree.

Plus: THIS THREAD WAS STARTED FOUR (4) YEARS AGO !! But someone bumped it: WHY??

Seems clear that someone out there has a major grudge against TJ, the Curie test prep center, or both.

To that person: please who you are and what your motive is here?

I've been as big a contributor to this discussion as anyone. My intent in initially bringing the matter to light was to highlight the fact that there had been students getting into TJ for years on largely false pretenses.

What happened at Curie (and folks, please stop arguing that it didn't happen - you're living in an alternate reality) was designed to create imbalances in the TJ Admissions process, and did so successfully.

Worse yet, the flagship course that created these imbalances and provided undeserved advantages:
- were available for the low, low price of $5,000;
- committed students to 16 months of targeted study specifically to crack the TJ exam, which was supposed to be secured;
- appeared based on their published list to be only available to students of South Asian descent.

Did Curie do anything wrong? The answer is probably no. But did they expose a massive flaw in the TJ Admissions process that needed to be rectified, creating conditions that led to the adoption of the new admissions process so reviled by the community that they aim to exclusively serve? Yes, yes they did.

As I've said many times before, I bear no specific ill will towards Curie, except inasmuch as they are part of the very problematic industry that seeks to create imbalances in elite school admissions processes that favor families with resources. All I ever wanted was for FCPS to adjust the TJ Admissions process so that families would not be directly and obviously rewarded for participating in that industry.

And again, I and my people won. Convincingly, resoundingly, and with yet another 12-0 School Board and with the Supreme Court declining to take the case, seemingly permanently.

Again, saying you "won" is meaningless.

Your barometer is in part a 12-0 vote from a school board to support a resolution it created itself - with well-known dubious motives - after its members paid a PR firm to tell themselves what a good idea it was. The school board is a political body, and anyone knows that policies that look like they support equity receive overwhelming popular support, independent of their merit. Nobody's surprised by a unanimous vote from this echo chamber.

As to the Suproeme Court, realize that we live in America, where stupid, self-defeating ideas are legal, and hypocrisy isn't illegal up to a point. A failure of the Supreme Court to hear the case should not be interpreted as a success.

What you've accomplished is to push forward an unsatisfactory policy in wait of a better one to replace it. Yet you're harming the ability to do so by throwing around silly phrases like "we won".

The failure of the supreme court to hear this case highlights the fact that facially neutral laws are not violations of the 14th amendment merely because they were born of racist motives.
It took the voting rights act explicitly outlawing literacy tests and poll taxes, they didn't get outlawed by the civil rights act or the 14th amendment.
It's why racially motivated voter ID laws are perfectly legal, because they are in fact facially neutral.
This new admissions process is basically a modified lottery and is non-discriminatory, almost by definition (it also doesn't filter for merit).

We probably can't win this one in the courts.
We will have to win at the ballot box.

It does filter for “merit”.

30% of the students in FCPS are qualified to apply. After that it's so subjective that it's basically random.

So a lottery for merit students. Sounds good to me.

Only 20% of students get into AAP.

Picking TJ admits from a pool of 30% of 8th graders is merit in a very mediocre world.
So it is a lottery with a very low hurdle for merit.
We are not anywhere close to picking the best students.

Depends on how you define “best”.

No, it doesn't. Picking randomly from the top 30% of students is not "best" under any reasonable definition.

It could be the best allocation of seats for interested kids across the county.

It's the best method of increasing urm without express racial discrimination.

If merit has any value at all then you could have this exact same process plus a test so that you at least get the most capable kids from each of the schools.

There is certainly room for improvement in the current process, but it’s much better than the last one.

Yes, of your primary concern is racial balancing

That's illegal in the US. If you can show that's going on you can win a multi-million dollar lawsuit. Good luck!

Wanting racial balance is not illegal. Changing a merit based process to a race neutral process that de-emphasizes merit in order to achieve more racial balancing is not illegal. That's not affirmative action. No race is getting a preference in the process. The intent behind the change was race driven but the process itself is not racially discriminatory.

Yes, but it is illegal to consider race for selection to these programs in the US. That is why the process is RACE BLIND.

How is it race blind when 80% of the kids still continue to be from just 2 races, batch after batch. And most of the kids in TJ have had elder siblings in TJ. How do so many families have both kids in TJ - what are the chances?Find it hard to believe, but almost all kids in DDs batch seem to have had their elder siblings pass out from TJ. How is that even possible if the admission process was neutral and unbiased !

The admissions closely mirrors the applicant pool. It is so close that it borders on random.
Most of the kids in TJ do not have had elder siblings at TJ, what a silly comment.
However, there is a genetic component to IQ and the part that isn't genetic is largely environmental, so if you have 2 kids with similar genes and similar home environment, why is this result a surprise to anyone?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The $$$ test prep industry was aggravating the disparity in representation at TJ.

It wasn't the only issue, but it certainly was easier to address than the long-term effects of redlining.

What were the long term effects of redlining?

The population of non whites in fairfax was tiny
88k white, 9.7K blacks and no separately measurable hispanics to speak of in 1950 (also 100 asians and 40 all others combined)
260K white, 13.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1960 (also 900 asians and 94 all others combined)
435K white, 15.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1970 (also 2200 asians and 1100 all others combined)
539K white, 36K black , 26K all other minority combined in 1980.

How did they redline against the hispanics that weren't here?
And why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asians?

It wasn't test prep that was aggravating racial disparity at tj. It was any sort of merit based testing. For a few years people got it in their heads that tests were racist.

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

Expensive test prep certainly aggravated the disparity. Look at the results from the test prep companies.

So how did they redline against hispanics that weren't here?
Why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asian?

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

The only example presented was redlining and that seems like a stretch because of the demographics of fairfax during the redlining period.

So what systemic racism limited opportunities for brown immigrants of latin american descent but did not limit opportunities for the brown immigrants of indian descent?
They are both immigrant groups.
Systemic racism did not make the indian immigrants welathy and the hispanic immigrants poor.
Systemic racism did not make one group of parents well educated and the other not.
What is the racist system here that elevates asians ABOVE whites in academics and suppresses all other groups?
Why do racist systems seem to like indians so much?

Here is what I originally wrote but lost that comment and missed that part when I rushed to retype.
“it certainly was easier to address than, say, the long-term effects of redlining.”

And I never said all disparities are due to systemic racism. Here is what I said:
“There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.”


There are many, big issues in our society that aren’t easily fixed in a public school admissions process. BUT they can certainly try to reduce disparities caused by expensive test prep.

And it turns out that you are completely wrong about testing.

https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

??
I didn’t say anything about testing.

Testing with equal opportunity to prep is ideal.

It’s the $$$$ test prep that is inequitable.

unfortunately that doesn't exist and people will always find a way to game the system

Seriously don't let yourself off that easy. Khan academy books are like $20, the videos are free.

and are not even in the same league compared to what the prep centers offer (actual test answers)

We've gone over this. You are lying.
When pushed on this all we get is that some test prep centers asked previous students about the questions on the test they just took. If they published the test questions, then they wouldn't have this advantage.

There is nothing in those expensive test prep courses that you don't see on khan academy. What the expensive test prep courses give you is a lot of handholding and walking you through stuff. This does make test prep easier but there is no secret sauce at those test prep centers.

You get more useful information about how an applicant fits into a school that values innovation if they take a test for which they can’t prep.

First of all, the school obviously values skin color more than "innovation"
Otherwise they wouldn't have made the change they did.

Second, how does a secret test measure innovation any better than an IQ test?
Things like creativity and innovation correlate pretty well with IQ.
We know how to measure IQ, we don't need to ambush people on tests to measure it.

IQ tests are not supposed to be prepped for either. The information is not useful if the test taker has seen the questions before, so they are also “secret.”

I’m surprised that an adult who appears to be interested in education cannot seem to understand why a test that can’t be prepped for would be useful in determining which applicants would be good matches for a school like TJ. A school like TJ will most benefit students who can think on their feet, not students who have been spoon fed information which they then memorized.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The $$$ test prep industry was aggravating the disparity in representation at TJ.

It wasn't the only issue, but it certainly was easier to address than the long-term effects of redlining.

What were the long term effects of redlining?

The population of non whites in fairfax was tiny
88k white, 9.7K blacks and no separately measurable hispanics to speak of in 1950 (also 100 asians and 40 all others combined)
260K white, 13.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1960 (also 900 asians and 94 all others combined)
435K white, 15.8K blacks and no measurable hispanic population in 1970 (also 2200 asians and 1100 all others combined)
539K white, 36K black , 26K all other minority combined in 1980.

How did they redline against the hispanics that weren't here?
And why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asians?

It wasn't test prep that was aggravating racial disparity at tj. It was any sort of merit based testing. For a few years people got it in their heads that tests were racist.

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

Expensive test prep certainly aggravated the disparity. Look at the results from the test prep companies.

So how did they redline against hispanics that weren't here?
Why didn't they redline against the largest non-black minority group, asian?

Redlining is just one example of how systemic racism still affects people today. There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.

The only example presented was redlining and that seems like a stretch because of the demographics of fairfax during the redlining period.

So what systemic racism limited opportunities for brown immigrants of latin american descent but did not limit opportunities for the brown immigrants of indian descent?
They are both immigrant groups.
Systemic racism did not make the indian immigrants welathy and the hispanic immigrants poor.
Systemic racism did not make one group of parents well educated and the other not.
What is the racist system here that elevates asians ABOVE whites in academics and suppresses all other groups?
Why do racist systems seem to like indians so much?

Here is what I originally wrote but lost that comment and missed that part when I rushed to retype.
“it certainly was easier to address than, say, the long-term effects of redlining.”

And I never said all disparities are due to systemic racism. Here is what I said:
“There are many ways that people end up with limited opportunities.”


There are many, big issues in our society that aren’t easily fixed in a public school admissions process. BUT they can certainly try to reduce disparities caused by expensive test prep.

And it turns out that you are completely wrong about testing.

https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

??
I didn’t say anything about testing.

Testing with equal opportunity to prep is ideal.

It’s the $$$$ test prep that is inequitable.

unfortunately that doesn't exist and people will always find a way to game the system

Seriously don't let yourself off that easy. Khan academy books are like $20, the videos are free.

and are not even in the same league compared to what the prep centers offer (actual test answers)

We've gone over this. You are lying.
When pushed on this all we get is that some test prep centers asked previous students about the questions on the test they just took. If they published the test questions, then they wouldn't have this advantage.

There is nothing in those expensive test prep courses that you don't see on khan academy. What the expensive test prep courses give you is a lot of handholding and walking you through stuff. This does make test prep easier but there is no secret sauce at those test prep centers.

You get more useful information about how an applicant fits into a school that values innovation if they take a test for which they can’t prep.

First of all, the school obviously values skin color more than "innovation"
Otherwise they wouldn't have made the change they did.

Second, how does a secret test measure innovation any better than an IQ test?
Things like creativity and innovation correlate pretty well with IQ.
We know how to measure IQ, we don't need to ambush people on tests to measure it.

IQ tests are not supposed to be prepped for either. The information is not useful if the test taker has seen the questions before, so they are also “secret.”

I’m surprised that an adult who appears to be interested in education cannot seem to understand why a test that can’t be prepped for would be useful in determining which applicants would be good matches for a school like TJ. A school like TJ will most benefit students who can think on their feet, not students who have been spoon fed information which they then memorized.

DP. Kids who are the best fit for TJ are going to be the ones who can think on their feet, but also have a lot of discipline and work ethic. It would be more ideal to have a TJ test similar to AMC 10, where both a lot of self-studying and prep as well as native intelligence are needed to earn high scores.

I do agree with you that a test that cannot be prepped for would be useful for measuring raw aptitude. I also think it's naive to think that any test can't be prepped for and that any test wouldn't have information leak out one way or another. There's a reason that they need to constantly rewrite and re-norm the WISC, and there's a reason that the scores drift upward pretty drastically at the end of each cycle. It's not that kids are getting that much smarter over the span of 10 years. It's that the novel tasks end up leaking out and becoming not so novel.