Family of Four on 90k - An Upper Middle Class Existence

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the PP who took a gamble on an up and coming neighborhood is missing the point by making comments about how appreciation doesn't do him/her any good. It's not the appreciation per se that most of us want. It's the ability to buy into these neighborhoods close-in with good schools and have a reasonable mortgage that we want. But they have already appreciated past the point that they are affordable.

I also think a lot of us were sold a bag of goods that if we worked hard and got a good education, we'd be able to afford a solid middle class life. Instead, we have student loans and housing costs that either require buying in a not-so-safe area or commuting a long distance. I'm a lawyer and DH is a consultant with an MBA. We didn't work this hard in life to raise our kids in a neighborhood with all the crime, drugs, and broken bottles you mention. Sure -- that is an option for people. But I don't think that is an option most people who want to be middle class dream of.

FWIW, I live and work in NoVa, so taking a chance on charter schools isn't an option for us (my commute would be worse if I lived in the city). A lot of Northern VA is already crazy expensive and the "up and coming" areas are being bid up by people who can spend more on a tear down LOT (that they're going to build a 1.5 million house on) than I can pay for my entire house.

There are still neighborhoods that are close-in where you can buy a fixer upper and have a reasonable mortgage. (Not my neighborhood, anymore, but others just like it, with just as questionable schools and lots of poor people - just like mine ten years ago). You just want to have it all. You can't.

No, I don't "want it all." I don't want/expect to drive fancy cars, take lavish vacations, have a weekly maid service, eat out all the time, get my nails done, etc. I don't even expect a new/huge home or to live across the street from a metro station or anything like that. Two professionals wanting to buy a home in a safe area with good schools and a decent commute is a fairly basic middle class desire. But student loans and paying for childcare are money sucks (and I say this as someone who does not have a 300k+ HHI). I think it's sad that people think being able to afford a home that doesn't involve either sacrificing on schools or time spent commuting is "having it all." That being said, I grew up in a much more affordable city and I would leave this area in a heartbeat if it weren't for the fact all of DH's family is in the area (I don't have much family and I am close with his family), so we're here at least for a while longer.

I realize this area is expensive for a reason (mostly the job security), but that doesn't mean you have to get all defensive about the fact that some families may find it difficult to afford living here. I really don't see how that has any bearing on you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the PP who took a gamble on an up and coming neighborhood is missing the point by making comments about how appreciation doesn't do him/her any good. It's not the appreciation per se that most of us want. It's the ability to buy into these neighborhoods close-in with good schools and have a reasonable mortgage that we want. But they have already appreciated past the point that they are affordable.

I also think a lot of us were sold a bag of goods that if we worked hard and got a good education, we'd be able to afford a solid middle class life. Instead, we have student loans and housing costs that either require buying in a not-so-safe area or commuting a long distance. I'm a lawyer and DH is a consultant with an MBA. We didn't work this hard in life to raise our kids in a neighborhood with all the crime, drugs, and broken bottles you mention. Sure -- that is an option for people. But I don't think that is an option most people who want to be middle class dream of.

FWIW, I live and work in NoVa, so taking a chance on charter schools isn't an option for us (my commute would be worse if I lived in the city). A lot of Northern VA is already crazy expensive and the "up and coming" areas are being bid up by people who can spend more on a tear down LOT (that they're going to build a 1.5 million house on) than I can pay for my entire house.

There are still neighborhoods that are close-in where you can buy a fixer upper and have a reasonable mortgage. (Not my neighborhood, anymore, but others just like it, with just as questionable schools and lots of poor people - just like mine ten years ago). You just want to have it all. You can't.

I agree. Those of us with less make compromises because we have to. Those with more seem to expect they should have everything. Well life doesn't necessarily work that way. Deal with reality - not what conditions were like 30 years ago.

Just because you have less and have to make compromises doesn't mean it's unreasonable for educated young professionals to want to be able to work their way up to something more. This mentality that because some people have had to settle for bad schools or crappy commutes means today's young professionals shouldn't aspire for anything more is ridiculous

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the PP who took a gamble on an up and coming neighborhood is missing the point by making comments about how appreciation doesn't do him/her any good. It's not the appreciation per se that most of us want. It's the ability to buy into these neighborhoods close-in with good schools and have a reasonable mortgage that we want. But they have already appreciated past the point that they are affordable.

I also think a lot of us were sold a bag of goods that if we worked hard and got a good education, we'd be able to afford a solid middle class life. Instead, we have student loans and housing costs that either require buying in a not-so-safe area or commuting a long distance. I'm a lawyer and DH is a consultant with an MBA. We didn't work this hard in life to raise our kids in a neighborhood with all the crime, drugs, and broken bottles you mention. Sure -- that is an option for people. But I don't think that is an option most people who want to be middle class dream of.

FWIW, I live and work in NoVa, so taking a chance on charter schools isn't an option for us (my commute would be worse if I lived in the city). A lot of Northern VA is already crazy expensive and the "up and coming" areas are being bid up by people who can spend more on a tear down LOT (that they're going to build a 1.5 million house on) than I can pay for my entire house.

There are still neighborhoods that are close-in where you can buy a fixer upper and have a reasonable mortgage. (Not my neighborhood, anymore, but others just like it, with just as questionable schools and lots of poor people - just like mine ten years ago). You just want to have it all. You can't.

No, I don't "want it all." I don't want/expect to drive fancy cars, take lavish vacations, have a weekly maid service, eat out all the time, get my nails done, etc. I don't even expect a new/huge home or to live across the street from a metro station or anything like that. Two professionals wanting to buy a home in a safe area with good schools and a decent commute is a fairly basic middle class desire. But student loans and paying for childcare are money sucks (and I say this as someone who does not have a 300k+ HHI). I think it's sad that people think being able to afford a home that doesn't involve either sacrificing on schools or time spent commuting is "having it all." That being said, I grew up in a much more affordable city and I would leave this area in a heartbeat if it weren't for the fact all of DH's family is in the area (I don't have much family and I am close with his family), so we're here at least for a while longer.

I realize this area is expensive for a reason (mostly the job security), but that doesn't mean you have to get all defensive about the fact that some families may find it difficult to afford living here. I really don't see how that has any bearing on you?

As far as housing is concerned a home in a safe area with good schools and a decent commute IS having it all.

[Anonymous]

Op, don't pat yourself on the back - if you don't care re: schools, it doesn't matter where you live. You haven't accomplished anything big.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the PP who took a gamble on an up and coming neighborhood is missing the point by making comments about how appreciation doesn't do him/her any good. It's not the appreciation per se that most of us want. It's the ability to buy into these neighborhoods close-in with good schools and have a reasonable mortgage that we want. But they have already appreciated past the point that they are affordable.

I also think a lot of us were sold a bag of goods that if we worked hard and got a good education, we'd be able to afford a solid middle class life. Instead, we have student loans and housing costs that either require buying in a not-so-safe area or commuting a long distance. I'm a lawyer and DH is a consultant with an MBA. We didn't work this hard in life to raise our kids in a neighborhood with all the crime, drugs, and broken bottles you mention. Sure -- that is an option for people. But I don't think that is an option most people who want to be middle class dream of.

FWIW, I live and work in NoVa, so taking a chance on charter schools isn't an option for us (my commute would be worse if I lived in the city). A lot of Northern VA is already crazy expensive and the "up and coming" areas are being bid up by people who can spend more on a tear down LOT (that they're going to build a 1.5 million house on) than I can pay for my entire house.

so you don't think you live a solidly middle class life?

You live a MC life, just not an UMC one, which you expected to do with a JD and MBA. I will say that if you're under 35, just wait...you'll have a lot more money in 10-15 years when there's no longer childcare and your loans are paid off. BTDT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the PP who took a gamble on an up and coming neighborhood is missing the point by making comments about how appreciation doesn't do him/her any good. It's not the appreciation per se that most of us want. It's the ability to buy into these neighborhoods close-in with good schools and have a reasonable mortgage that we want. But they have already appreciated past the point that they are affordable.

I also think a lot of us were sold a bag of goods that if we worked hard and got a good education, we'd be able to afford a solid middle class life. Instead, we have student loans and housing costs that either require buying in a not-so-safe area or commuting a long distance. I'm a lawyer and DH is a consultant with an MBA. We didn't work this hard in life to raise our kids in a neighborhood with all the crime, drugs, and broken bottles you mention. Sure -- that is an option for people. But I don't think that is an option most people who want to be middle class dream of.

FWIW, I live and work in NoVa, so taking a chance on charter schools isn't an option for us (my commute would be worse if I lived in the city). A lot of Northern VA is already crazy expensive and the "up and coming" areas are being bid up by people who can spend more on a tear down LOT (that they're going to build a 1.5 million house on) than I can pay for my entire house.

There are still neighborhoods that are close-in where you can buy a fixer upper and have a reasonable mortgage. (Not my neighborhood, anymore, but others just like it, with just as questionable schools and lots of poor people - just like mine ten years ago). You just want to have it all. You can't.

I agree. Those of us with less make compromises because we have to. Those with more seem to expect they should have everything. Well life doesn't necessarily work that way. Deal with reality - not what conditions were like 30 years ago.

Just because you have less and have to make compromises doesn't mean it's unreasonable for educated young professionals to want to be able to work their way up to something more. This mentality that because some people have had to settle for bad schools or crappy commutes means today's young professionals shouldn't aspire for anything more is ridiculous

aspire to more sure. bitch about not having it yet - tireseome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I agree. Those of us with less make compromises because we have to. Those with more seem to expect they should have everything. Well life doesn't necessarily work that way. Deal with reality - not what conditions were like 30 years ago.

That's the problem - you think making more money means you don't have to make compromises anymore. This is absolutely not the case. The compromises may be different from yours, but they are compromises nonetheless. Next you may think that people who make more money have compromises that are silly or not really compromises at all. But keep in mind that those who make 1/2 as you do may have the same view as your compromises.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the PP who took a gamble on an up and coming neighborhood is missing the point by making comments about how appreciation doesn't do him/her any good. It's not the appreciation per se that most of us want. It's the ability to buy into these neighborhoods close-in with good schools and have a reasonable mortgage that we want. But they have already appreciated past the point that they are affordable.

I also think a lot of us were sold a bag of goods that if we worked hard and got a good education, we'd be able to afford a solid middle class life. Instead, we have student loans and housing costs that either require buying in a not-so-safe area or commuting a long distance. I'm a lawyer and DH is a consultant with an MBA. We didn't work this hard in life to raise our kids in a neighborhood with all the crime, drugs, and broken bottles you mention. Sure -- that is an option for people. But I don't think that is an option most people who want to be middle class dream of.

FWIW, I live and work in NoVa, so taking a chance on charter schools isn't an option for us (my commute would be worse if I lived in the city). A lot of Northern VA is already crazy expensive and the "up and coming" areas are being bid up by people who can spend more on a tear down LOT (that they're going to build a 1.5 million house on) than I can pay for my entire house.

so you don't think you live a solidly middle class life?

You live a MC life, just not an UMC one, which you expected to do with a JD and MBA. I will say that if you're under 35, just wait...you'll have a lot more money in 10-15 years when there's no longer childcare and your loans are paid off. BTDT.

We are both under 35, so maybe the shackles of student loans and childcare are clouding my long term outlook. Maybe I just need to hear more "it gets better" stories from people who have made it past these early years instead of being told by people on here that living in a high crime area or commuting 2 hours roundtrip per day is all I should want out of life or else I'm being entitled and expecting it all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I agree. Those of us with less make compromises because we have to. Those with more seem to expect they should have everything. Well life doesn't necessarily work that way. Deal with reality - not what conditions were like 30 years ago.

That's the problem - you think making more money means you don't have to make compromises anymore. This is absolutely not the case. The compromises may be different from yours, but they are compromises nonetheless. Next you may think that people who make more money have compromises that are silly or not really compromises at all. But keep in mind that those who make 1/2 as you do may have the same view as your compromises.

All I can say is I don't hear much about the people with a HHI 400k making compromises. Maybe if they did - they wouldn't be on DCUM claiming poverty.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I agree. Those of us with less make compromises because we have to. Those with more seem to expect they should have everything. Well life doesn't necessarily work that way. Deal with reality - not what conditions were like 30 years ago.

That's the problem - you think making more money means you don't have to make compromises anymore. This is absolutely not the case. The compromises may be different from yours, but they are compromises nonetheless. Next you may think that people who make more money have compromises that are silly or not really compromises at all. But keep in mind that those who make 1/2 as you do may have the same view as your compromises.

All I can say is I don't hear much about the people with a HHI 400k making compromises. Maybe if they did - they wouldn't be on DCUM claiming poverty.

We are cutting our maid service down to once every two weeks during the summer since we'll be paying weekly for the servicing of our pool and landscaping during summer months. We are stressed that the house would become too messy during that second week, driving everyone crazy. We host a lot of weekend parties for friends and family and worry about the image of a messy home.

There, see? Having to make compromises. You may feel this is silly, but share one of your compromises and I am sure it would seem silly to someone who makes far less than you do.

[Anonymous]

Somehow this feels similar how anti-feminists accuse workings moms of 'wanting it all'.

Who knew that a rambler with good schools and within 10 miles of DC or Tysons is the lap of luxury. Will we run into Trump on the street?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Somehow this feels similar how anti-feminists accuse workings moms of 'wanting it all'.

Who knew that a rambler with good schools and within 10 miles of DC or Tysons is the lap of luxury. Will we run into Trump on the street?

If I could afford a rambler I would consider it luxury!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Some of it is that we have a low mortgage payment ($1600). We also paid cash for our car (and don't use it a lot because we live downtown) so no car payment (it's 4 years old now, but was new when we bought it from savings). We use frequent flyer miles for flights (or some of them), which are accrued primarily though putting all expenditure on credit cards (which are then paid off each month). We stay with family when we travel overseas (I realize this isn't an option for everyone) and get great deals on Priceline for local trips (e.g. 4 star hotels for $50-70 a night and we only stay one night) or use Airbnb if longer so that we can have a separate bedroom for the kids and a kitchen so that we don't have to eat out every night.

When we eat out we eat at lower cost places and pay $40-50 for the family. We use Groupons or other coupons where possible and we just eat out a handful of times a month. Our grocery and eating out budget combined is about $8-900 a month. When I cut back on eating out our grocery bills just go up, so it tends to be similar regardless. (We eat vegetarian and I cook everything from scratch at home) My husband and I almost never buy clothes for ourselves. Or shoes. The kids clothes ALL come from Value Village (we also donate a lot of clothes and toys to goodwill), though I buy their clothes new. We don't have cable and have a low phone plan. We don't ever pay for childcare (we do babysitting exchanges with friends and neighbors - no local family). I pack lunches for myself and my kindergartener.

We put $15k a year into my 401k. We already have a robust emergency fund so I tend to put at least $100 into savings per pay period and then use that to fund bigger expenses like car insurance payment (every six months) or a vacation. Despite occasional use of savings our net worth is growing steadily.

How is your mortgage so low for a rowhouse?

I bought my house when I was single and earning about $70k in 2004. It was a foreclosure in a part of town that you couldn't get cab drivers to take you to and where you couldn't get pizza delivered. People were dealing drugs in front of my house and we heard gunshots every weekend. The house was a state -- the kitchen and bathroom were barely functioning, the roof leaked etc-- but it cost less than $300k. At first I had no idea what I was doing and was in way over my head, but I've learned. Since then we've refinanced several times and fully renovated (bit by bit). We have probably spent another $150k all told, but it's been 10 years now and we've paid off the HELOC and a substantial sum of the mortgage. Now owe about $180k.

And before you slam me because this isn't helpful for you because you don't have a time machine. IT IS. You can STILL buy rowhouses (or even SFH) in the DC area, in close in locations for less than $300k. If you buy wisely you will even see similarly huge increases in your investments. You need to earn that sweat equity. (I'd recommend: Hyattsville or Mount Rainier -- you can even get a SFH)

My house now has more than $500k in equity. It's a beautiful house with lots of original Victorian features. And the neighborhood is now extremely hot. When I moved here we had no amenities beyond fast food and check cashing. Now we have restaurants and bars and artist studios, coffee shops and yoga.

How is your rowhouse both downtown AND in a place where cab drivers wouldn't take you in 2004?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Some of it is that we have a low mortgage payment ($1600). We also paid cash for our car (and don't use it a lot because we live downtown) so no car payment (it's 4 years old now, but was new when we bought it from savings). We use frequent flyer miles for flights (or some of them), which are accrued primarily though putting all expenditure on credit cards (which are then paid off each month). We stay with family when we travel overseas (I realize this isn't an option for everyone) and get great deals on Priceline for local trips (e.g. 4 star hotels for $50-70 a night and we only stay one night) or use Airbnb if longer so that we can have a separate bedroom for the kids and a kitchen so that we don't have to eat out every night.

When we eat out we eat at lower cost places and pay $40-50 for the family. We use Groupons or other coupons where possible and we just eat out a handful of times a month. Our grocery and eating out budget combined is about $8-900 a month. When I cut back on eating out our grocery bills just go up, so it tends to be similar regardless. (We eat vegetarian and I cook everything from scratch at home) My husband and I almost never buy clothes for ourselves. Or shoes. The kids clothes ALL come from Value Village (we also donate a lot of clothes and toys to goodwill), though I buy their clothes new. We don't have cable and have a low phone plan. We don't ever pay for childcare (we do babysitting exchanges with friends and neighbors - no local family). I pack lunches for myself and my kindergartener.

We put $15k a year into my 401k. We already have a robust emergency fund so I tend to put at least $100 into savings per pay period and then use that to fund bigger expenses like car insurance payment (every six months) or a vacation. Despite occasional use of savings our net worth is growing steadily.

How is your mortgage so low for a rowhouse?

I bought my house when I was single and earning about $70k in 2004. It was a foreclosure in a part of town that you couldn't get cab drivers to take you to and where you couldn't get pizza delivered. People were dealing drugs in front of my house and we heard gunshots every weekend. The house was a state -- the kitchen and bathroom were barely functioning, the roof leaked etc-- but it cost less than $300k. At first I had no idea what I was doing and was in way over my head, but I've learned. Since then we've refinanced several times and fully renovated (bit by bit). We have probably spent another $150k all told, but it's been 10 years now and we've paid off the HELOC and a substantial sum of the mortgage. Now owe about $180k.

And before you slam me because this isn't helpful for you because you don't have a time machine. IT IS. You can STILL buy rowhouses (or even SFH) in the DC area, in close in locations for less than $300k. If you buy wisely you will even see similarly huge increases in your investments. You need to earn that sweat equity. (I'd recommend: Hyattsville or Mount Rainier -- you can even get a SFH)

My house now has more than $500k in equity. It's a beautiful house with lots of original Victorian features. And the neighborhood is now extremely hot. When I moved here we had no amenities beyond fast food and check cashing. Now we have restaurants and bars and artist studios, coffee shops and yoga.

How is your rowhouse both downtown AND in a place where cab drivers wouldn't take you in 2004?

It's very close to downtown. About .75 mile from both Chinatown and Union Station, about 1 mile from Dupont Circle, for example. Yep, cab drivers wouldn't go there and no-one would deliver pizza or other takeout either. So much has changed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Some of it is that we have a low mortgage payment ($1600). We also paid cash for our car (and don't use it a lot because we live downtown) so no car payment (it's 4 years old now, but was new when we bought it from savings). We use frequent flyer miles for flights (or some of them), which are accrued primarily though putting all expenditure on credit cards (which are then paid off each month). We stay with family when we travel overseas (I realize this isn't an option for everyone) and get great deals on Priceline for local trips (e.g. 4 star hotels for $50-70 a night and we only stay one night) or use Airbnb if longer so that we can have a separate bedroom for the kids and a kitchen so that we don't have to eat out every night.

When we eat out we eat at lower cost places and pay $40-50 for the family. We use Groupons or other coupons where possible and we just eat out a handful of times a month. Our grocery and eating out budget combined is about $8-900 a month. When I cut back on eating out our grocery bills just go up, so it tends to be similar regardless. (We eat vegetarian and I cook everything from scratch at home) My husband and I almost never buy clothes for ourselves. Or shoes. The kids clothes ALL come from Value Village (we also donate a lot of clothes and toys to goodwill), though I buy their clothes new. We don't have cable and have a low phone plan. We don't ever pay for childcare (we do babysitting exchanges with friends and neighbors - no local family). I pack lunches for myself and my kindergartener.

We put $15k a year into my 401k. We already have a robust emergency fund so I tend to put at least $100 into savings per pay period and then use that to fund bigger expenses like car insurance payment (every six months) or a vacation. Despite occasional use of savings our net worth is growing steadily.

How is your mortgage so low for a rowhouse?

I bought my house when I was single and earning about $70k in 2004. It was a foreclosure in a part of town that you couldn't get cab drivers to take you to and where you couldn't get pizza delivered. People were dealing drugs in front of my house and we heard gunshots every weekend. The house was a state -- the kitchen and bathroom were barely functioning, the roof leaked etc-- but it cost less than $300k. At first I had no idea what I was doing and was in way over my head, but I've learned. Since then we've refinanced several times and fully renovated (bit by bit). We have probably spent another $150k all told, but it's been 10 years now and we've paid off the HELOC and a substantial sum of the mortgage. Now owe about $180k.

And before you slam me because this isn't helpful for you because you don't have a time machine. IT IS. You can STILL buy rowhouses (or even SFH) in the DC area, in close in locations for less than $300k. If you buy wisely you will even see similarly huge increases in your investments. You need to earn that sweat equity. (I'd recommend: Hyattsville or Mount Rainier -- you can even get a SFH)

My house now has more than $500k in equity. It's a beautiful house with lots of original Victorian features. And the neighborhood is now extremely hot. When I moved here we had no amenities beyond fast food and check cashing. Now we have restaurants and bars and artist studios, coffee shops and yoga.

How is your rowhouse both downtown AND in a place where cab drivers wouldn't take you in 2004?

It's very close to downtown. About .75 mile from both Chinatown and Union Station, about 1 mile from Dupont Circle, for example. Yep, cab drivers wouldn't go there and no-one would deliver pizza or other takeout either. So much has changed.

OMG, you are ridiculous. We looked places in Shaw in 2004, and we took a cab there. And that's 1.2 miles away, you might have even been in Logan Circle.

Cab's won't go there...