Family of Four on 90k - An Upper Middle Class Existence

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I would think engineering would be relatively luctative. I majored in environmental science... LOL

yep. figured engineering would be safe middle class job. work hard but do interesting work, get small house with good schools. instead to have that life you have to either commuter from exurb va and md (like all my colleagues) or settle for th. not looking to be rich but thought we were working hard and doing right. people just 5-10 years older could do it at this point easily b/c housing everywhere was more affordable.

Any chance you can move to an area where cost of living is less? We are also in a townhouse (montgomery county) and are actually considering frederick county to get more for our money. Sometimes we think about other areas of the country but the right thing has not come along.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is in response to 8:35 above- don't want to quote again since it's so long- but PP's house probably didn't just appreciate due to the bubble- sure it's a part but gentrification has lead to crazy increases in housing prices in many DC neighborhoods, and it's not like those places went rock bottom again when the bubble popped. From my limited experience looking at home values when we were house shopping, it was more outlying, exurban areas that really got screwed by the bubble. Investing in a gentrifying inner city neighborhood is a risk that I'm not sure I would have had the courage to take, but for PP it worked out. It doesn't sound like you (as a self described country boy) would have wanted to take that kind of risk even if you had the means.

You are right. The bubble didn't ever impact my part of the city (prices never went down). PP is unbelievably bitter and for no reaso. How exactly would having a ton of equity change your life? You still need somewhere to live. You still have to pay back whatever you buy against your house. I still have the same house I bought ten years ago. I still live in the same neighborhood and have the same commute. I don't have any more cash spare because my house is now worth more. If I move and cash out my equity where does that take me? I still need a home.

PP just had different priorities and was/is unwilling to take a chance -- those are CHOICES that he consciously made, just like I made choices that worked out. Taking a chance in DC means living somewhere with questionable schools, alongside a lot of people living on the poverty line and all the problems that go with it. But you know what, for every drug deal or shooting or panhandler asking for money or syringe/vodka bottle/knife I find on the local playground, there are dozens of great neighbors (rich or poor, black or white, gay or straight, young or old) who are friendly, open and committed to improving the neighborhood. You just need to open your eyes.

NP and all I can say is bitter is no way to live. PP can be angry at people who made huge amounts in appreciation or he can just get on with his life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sorry, some of us work during day. You know and have parents.

I came from rural America, went to good college and studies engineering not that different than PP.

I was foolish about money in that went into engineering and did what I love rather than go into investment banking or consulting. This is what I am bitter probably, b/c my experience is from rural America where homes cost less than cars. About $40k student loans. We are still worried about supporting parents who have no retirement except their house, a failure to launch sibling, and a sibling with serious mental health issues.

That's a rather unhealthy "grass is greener on the other side" mentality. I went into engineering as well and while I made the decision to change careers, my engineering background gives me a unique competitive advantage in my current business against my peers who tend to be marketing and sales types. My wife is in finance, with numerous friends in investment banking due to their heavy duty math background. I am not sure I would have survived in that high pressure environment. I certainly don't want to go live in NY.

haha true probably unhealthy. but now that I'm limited in options where we have a long commute and DW has to work to afford basic middle class life it is a regret. I don't want to be wealthy or have big house, just want to make enough that we can have a SAHM! that is the ONLY luxury I am looking for. but making it work would mean probably very subpar schools and even longer commute. even two bedroom condos are on the order of a 400k mortgage once you incorporate condo fees. we rented for a long time, but rental market brutal now, rates go up and up.

the most valuable currency for us right now is time withe family and kids: staying home and commuting.

how did u transition to business from engineering? do u have to start entry level?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is in response to 8:35 above- don't want to quote again since it's so long- but PP's house probably didn't just appreciate due to the bubble- sure it's a part but gentrification has lead to crazy increases in housing prices in many DC neighborhoods, and it's not like those places went rock bottom again when the bubble popped. From my limited experience looking at home values when we were house shopping, it was more outlying, exurban areas that really got screwed by the bubble. Investing in a gentrifying inner city neighborhood is a risk that I'm not sure I would have had the courage to take, but for PP it worked out. It doesn't sound like you (as a self described country boy) would have wanted to take that kind of risk even if you had the means.

I agree there is some gentrification effect, but part of that was driven by the housing bubble (people couldn't afford upper nw so looked east). but again this is an external effect, gamble on a neighborhood and win type appreciation, not sweat equity that boosts a house by $500k. it worked out birdie many people it won't; haven't people been gambling on acps schools improving, and there are always neighborhoods that are tr next big thing but never make it. pp helped by being a pioneer but she did not effect the change on her own but benefitted from good timing and luck. and reproducing that luck with a declining dc economy seems unlikely, despite her assurance that anyone could replicate her success today.

I agree that it will be hard to get the kind of appreciation that I've had. But it's only relevant if your goal is wealth appreciation and you plan to sell not if you simply need somewhere affordable to live. What's relevant is how to find somewhere to live well on a sub $100k salary. You either take risks (like I did, and you still can) or you live in a small place (mine is also small, BTW) with a long commute in a better school district like bitter PP. These are trade offs. You don't get everything right away. (Or ever, for many people, myself included).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is in response to 8:35 above- don't want to quote again since it's so long- but PP's house probably didn't just appreciate due to the bubble- sure it's a part but gentrification has lead to crazy increases in housing prices in many DC neighborhoods, and it's not like those places went rock bottom again when the bubble popped. From my limited experience looking at home values when we were house shopping, it was more outlying, exurban areas that really got screwed by the bubble. Investing in a gentrifying inner city neighborhood is a risk that I'm not sure I would have had the courage to take, but for PP it worked out. It doesn't sound like you (as a self described country boy) would have wanted to take that kind of risk even if you had the means.

You are right. The bubble didn't ever impact my part of the city (prices never went down). PP is unbelievably bitter and for no reaso. How exactly would having a ton of equity change your life? You still need somewhere to live. You still have to pay back whatever you buy against your house. I still have the same house I bought ten years ago. I still live in the same neighborhood and have the same commute. I don't have any more cash spare because my house is now worth more. If I move and cash out my equity where does that take me? I still need a home.

PP just had different priorities and was/is unwilling to take a chance -- those are CHOICES that he consciously made, just like I made choices that worked out. Taking a chance in DC means living somewhere with questionable schools, alongside a lot of people living on the poverty line and all the problems that go with it. But you know what, for every drug deal or shooting or panhandler asking for money or syringe/vodka bottle/knife I find on the local playground, there are dozens of great neighbors (rich or poor, black or white, gay or straight, young or old) who are friendly, open and committed to improving the neighborhood. You just need to open your eyes.

NP and all I can say is bitter is no way to live. PP can be angry at people who made huge amounts in appreciation or he can just get on with his life.

Not that bitter, this is DCUM so things get crazy. My point was just PP appreciating the luck aspect in their appreciation and gentrification of their house; OP started this thread basically saying 'why are you folks all complaining, we get by fine on 90k' and PP who bought 800k home for 300k echoed sentiment. Of course all these lower middle income folks living well bought before the bubble, but they act as if they just live more virtuously. Not recognizing the luck they had in buying before bubble and locking in low COL now. And bubble never popped in DC; it was b/c of 911 spending and we may see decline in prices over the next decade as it unwinds but doesn't help folks starting out now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is in response to 8:35 above- don't want to quote again since it's so long- but PP's house probably didn't just appreciate due to the bubble- sure it's a part but gentrification has lead to crazy increases in housing prices in many DC neighborhoods, and it's not like those places went rock bottom again when the bubble popped. From my limited experience looking at home values when we were house shopping, it was more outlying, exurban areas that really got screwed by the bubble. Investing in a gentrifying inner city neighborhood is a risk that I'm not sure I would have had the courage to take, but for PP it worked out. It doesn't sound like you (as a self described country boy) would have wanted to take that kind of risk even if you had the means.

I agree there is some gentrification effect, but part of that was driven by the housing bubble (people couldn't afford upper nw so looked east). but again this is an external effect, gamble on a neighborhood and win type appreciation, not sweat equity that boosts a house by $500k. it worked out birdie many people it won't; haven't people been gambling on acps schools improving, and there are always neighborhoods that are tr next big thing but never make it. pp helped by being a pioneer but she did not effect the change on her own but benefitted from good timing and luck. and reproducing that luck with a declining dc economy seems unlikely, despite her assurance that anyone could replicate her success today.

I agree that it will be hard to get the kind of appreciation that I've had. But it's only relevant if your goal is wealth appreciation and you plan to sell not if you simply need somewhere affordable to live. What's relevant is how to find somewhere to live well on a sub $100k salary. You either take risks (like I did, and you still can) or you live in a small place (mine is also small, BTW) with a long commute in a better school district like bitter PP. These are trade offs. You don't get everything right away. (Or ever, for many people, myself included).

The Counter point to OP was that having a decent middle class life of good schools, reasonable commute, single family home is only achievable oN much higher incomes. OP was Poo-pooing this saying they she does it just fine. So your assertion is to live in unsafe marginal neighborhoods and hope it gets better? That seems like a gamble most parents can't make. And most millennials won't be in a position to buy a home b/c of student debt And higher down payment requirements until they have kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is in response to 8:35 above- don't want to quote again since it's so long- but PP's house probably didn't just appreciate due to the bubble- sure it's a part but gentrification has lead to crazy increases in housing prices in many DC neighborhoods, and it's not like those places went rock bottom again when the bubble popped. From my limited experience looking at home values when we were house shopping, it was more outlying, exurban areas that really got screwed by the bubble. Investing in a gentrifying inner city neighborhood is a risk that I'm not sure I would have had the courage to take, but for PP it worked out. It doesn't sound like you (as a self described country boy) would have wanted to take that kind of risk even if you had the means.

You are right. The bubble didn't ever impact my part of the city (prices never went down). PP is unbelievably bitter and for no reaso. How exactly would having a ton of equity change your life? You still need somewhere to live. You still have to pay back whatever you buy against your house. I still have the same house I bought ten years ago. I still live in the same neighborhood and have the same commute. I don't have any more cash spare because my house is now worth more. If I move and cash out my equity where does that take me? I still need a home.

PP just had different priorities and was/is unwilling to take a chance -- those are CHOICES that he consciously made, just like I made choices that worked out. Taking a chance in DC means living somewhere with questionable schools, alongside a lot of people living on the poverty line and all the problems that go with it. But you know what, for every drug deal or shooting or panhandler asking for money or syringe/vodka bottle/knife I find on the local playground, there are dozens of great neighbors (rich or poor, black or white, gay or straight, young or old) who are friendly, open and committed to improving the neighborhood. You just need to open your eyes.

NP and all I can say is bitter is no way to live. PP can be angry at people who made huge amounts in appreciation or he can just get on with his life.

Not that bitter, this is DCUM so things get crazy. My point was just PP appreciating the luck aspect in their appreciation and gentrification of their house; OP started this thread basically saying 'why are you folks all complaining, we get by fine on 90k' and PP who bought 800k home for 300k echoed sentiment. Of course all these lower middle income folks living well bought before the bubble, but they act as if they just live more virtuously. Not recognizing the luck they had in buying before bubble and locking in low COL now. And bubble never popped in DC; it was b/c of 911 spending and we may see decline in prices over the next decade as it unwinds but doesn't help folks starting out now.

Not all of us lower middle folks bought before the bubble. We are a 90k HHI living in a town home in a good (not the very best but good) school area and we feel pretty lucky. Its a matter of perspective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
haha true probably unhealthy. but now that I'm limited in options where we have a long commute and DW has to work to afford basic middle class life it is a regret. I don't want to be wealthy or have big house, just want to make enough that we can have a SAHM! that is the ONLY luxury I am looking for. but making it work would mean probably very subpar schools and even longer commute. even two bedroom condos are on the order of a 400k mortgage once you incorporate condo fees. we rented for a long time, but rental market brutal now, rates go up and up.

the most valuable currency for us right now is time withe family and kids: staying home and commuting.

how did u transition to business from engineering? do u have to start entry level?

I quit my engineering job after working it a few years - making good money too at $75k in my mid 20's. I took a look at my dad, who was also an engineer, slaving away at a job that was barely 2x what I was making. I asked myself if that's what I have to look forward to for the next 30-40 years and decided it was not for me. I got an MBA and started my first business with 3 other guys. That business got bought - six figure pay day but it wasn't really that much on retrospect, but it prepared me for the current one business, which is doing much better.

An engineer is the stem cell of professions. You can be anything you want. We are well trained and methodical, capable of solving complex problems with numerous variables. These analytical skills are useful everywhere. If you want to break into business without starting at entry level and still get a W2, you can become a sales engineer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Agreed. The problem is - its the people making 300-400k who are complaining. Not the people making 150k.

I don't see what that's a problem. People who make 300-400k are not immune to financial concerns. The concerns may manifest themselves in a way that doesn't relate to someone who make 90k, but they are no less real.

If you make $150K, the universe of the possible is much small than if you make $400K. Your kids will get financial aid, you'll be resigned to living off social security when you retire. People with 400K HHIs can be multimillionaires if they apply themselves and avoid the expensive house/cars/private schools/vacation crap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is in response to 8:35 above- don't want to quote again since it's so long- but PP's house probably didn't just appreciate due to the bubble- sure it's a part but gentrification has lead to crazy increases in housing prices in many DC neighborhoods, and it's not like those places went rock bottom again when the bubble popped. From my limited experience looking at home values when we were house shopping, it was more outlying, exurban areas that really got screwed by the bubble. Investing in a gentrifying inner city neighborhood is a risk that I'm not sure I would have had the courage to take, but for PP it worked out. It doesn't sound like you (as a self described country boy) would have wanted to take that kind of risk even if you had the means.

You are right. The bubble didn't ever impact my part of the city (prices never went down). PP is unbelievably bitter and for no reaso. How exactly would having a ton of equity change your life? You still need somewhere to live. You still have to pay back whatever you buy against your house. I still have the same house I bought ten years ago. I still live in the same neighborhood and have the same commute. I don't have any more cash spare because my house is now worth more. If I move and cash out my equity where does that take me? I still need a home.

PP just had different priorities and was/is unwilling to take a chance -- those are CHOICES that he consciously made, just like I made choices that worked out. Taking a chance in DC means living somewhere with questionable schools, alongside a lot of people living on the poverty line and all the problems that go with it. But you know what, for every drug deal or shooting or panhandler asking for money or syringe/vodka bottle/knife I find on the local playground, there are dozens of great neighbors (rich or poor, black or white, gay or straight, young or old) who are friendly, open and committed to improving the neighborhood. You just need to open your eyes.

NP and all I can say is bitter is no way to live. PP can be angry at people who made huge amounts in appreciation or he can just get on with his life.

Not that bitter, this is DCUM so things get crazy. My point was just PP appreciating the luck aspect in their appreciation and gentrification of their house; OP started this thread basically saying 'why are you folks all complaining, we get by fine on 90k' and PP who bought 800k home for 300k echoed sentiment. Of course all these lower middle income folks living well bought before the bubble, but they act as if they just live more virtuously. Not recognizing the luck they had in buying before bubble and locking in low COL now. And bubble never popped in DC; it was b/c of 911 spending and we may see decline in prices over the next decade as it unwinds but doesn't help folks starting out now.

Not all of us lower middle folks bought before the bubble. We are a 90k HHI living in a town home in a good (not the very best but good) school area and we feel pretty lucky. Its a matter of perspective.

Yes but a generation ago a inflation adjusted income for a professional would afford a house. How long is your commute; time is the trade off that hurts the most for us. Do you have a SAHP? Then u are close to living the dream.

So you are happy with your schools all the way thru High school or is your plan to move?

[Anonymous]

I think the PP who took a gamble on an up and coming neighborhood is missing the point by making comments about how appreciation doesn't do him/her any good. It's not the appreciation per se that most of us want. It's the ability to buy into these neighborhoods close-in with good schools and have a reasonable mortgage that we want. But they have already appreciated past the point that they are affordable.

I also think a lot of us were sold a bag of goods that if we worked hard and got a good education, we'd be able to afford a solid middle class life. Instead, we have student loans and housing costs that either require buying in a not-so-safe area or commuting a long distance. I'm a lawyer and DH is a consultant with an MBA. We didn't work this hard in life to raise our kids in a neighborhood with all the crime, drugs, and broken bottles you mention. Sure -- that is an option for people. But I don't think that is an option most people who want to be middle class dream of.

FWIW, I live and work in NoVa, so taking a chance on charter schools isn't an option for us (my commute would be worse if I lived in the city). A lot of Northern VA is already crazy expensive and the "up and coming" areas are being bid up by people who can spend more on a tear down LOT (that they're going to build a 1.5 million house on) than I can pay for my entire house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is in response to 8:35 above- don't want to quote again since it's so long- but PP's house probably didn't just appreciate due to the bubble- sure it's a part but gentrification has lead to crazy increases in housing prices in many DC neighborhoods, and it's not like those places went rock bottom again when the bubble popped. From my limited experience looking at home values when we were house shopping, it was more outlying, exurban areas that really got screwed by the bubble. Investing in a gentrifying inner city neighborhood is a risk that I'm not sure I would have had the courage to take, but for PP it worked out. It doesn't sound like you (as a self described country boy) would have wanted to take that kind of risk even if you had the means.

You are right. The bubble didn't ever impact my part of the city (prices never went down). PP is unbelievably bitter and for no reaso. How exactly would having a ton of equity change your life? You still need somewhere to live. You still have to pay back whatever you buy against your house. I still have the same house I bought ten years ago. I still live in the same neighborhood and have the same commute. I don't have any more cash spare because my house is now worth more. If I move and cash out my equity where does that take me? I still need a home.

PP just had different priorities and was/is unwilling to take a chance -- those are CHOICES that he consciously made, just like I made choices that worked out. Taking a chance in DC means living somewhere with questionable schools, alongside a lot of people living on the poverty line and all the problems that go with it. But you know what, for every drug deal or shooting or panhandler asking for money or syringe/vodka bottle/knife I find on the local playground, there are dozens of great neighbors (rich or poor, black or white, gay or straight, young or old) who are friendly, open and committed to improving the neighborhood. You just need to open your eyes.

NP and all I can say is bitter is no way to live. PP can be angry at people who made huge amounts in appreciation or he can just get on with his life.

Not that bitter, this is DCUM so things get crazy. My point was just PP appreciating the luck aspect in their appreciation and gentrification of their house; OP started this thread basically saying 'why are you folks all complaining, we get by fine on 90k' and PP who bought 800k home for 300k echoed sentiment. Of course all these lower middle income folks living well bought before the bubble, but they act as if they just live more virtuously. Not recognizing the luck they had in buying before bubble and locking in low COL now. And bubble never popped in DC; it was b/c of 911 spending and we may see decline in prices over the next decade as it unwinds but doesn't help folks starting out now.

Not all of us lower middle folks bought before the bubble. We are a 90k HHI living in a town home in a good (not the very best but good) school area and we feel pretty lucky. Its a matter of perspective.

Yes but a generation ago a inflation adjusted income for a professional would afford a house. How long is your commute; time is the trade off that hurts the most for us. Do you have a SAHP? Then u are close to living the dream.

So you are happy with your schools all the way thru High school or is your plan to move?

commute is 15 minute (I don't work in DC). I am a single parent so there is no stay at home parent. not sure about our HS. will re-evaluate when DD gets older as things (including boundaries) can change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the PP who took a gamble on an up and coming neighborhood is missing the point by making comments about how appreciation doesn't do him/her any good. It's not the appreciation per se that most of us want. It's the ability to buy into these neighborhoods close-in with good schools and have a reasonable mortgage that we want. But they have already appreciated past the point that they are affordable.

I also think a lot of us were sold a bag of goods that if we worked hard and got a good education, we'd be able to afford a solid middle class life. Instead, we have student loans and housing costs that either require buying in a not-so-safe area or commuting a long distance. I'm a lawyer and DH is a consultant with an MBA. We didn't work this hard in life to raise our kids in a neighborhood with all the crime, drugs, and broken bottles you mention. Sure -- that is an option for people. But I don't think that is an option most people who want to be middle class dream of.

FWIW, I live and work in NoVa, so taking a chance on charter schools isn't an option for us (my commute would be worse if I lived in the city). A lot of Northern VA is already crazy expensive and the "up and coming" areas are being bid up by people who can spend more on a tear down LOT (that they're going to build a 1.5 million house on) than I can pay for my entire house.

so you don't think you live a solidly middle class life?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the PP who took a gamble on an up and coming neighborhood is missing the point by making comments about how appreciation doesn't do him/her any good. It's not the appreciation per se that most of us want. It's the ability to buy into these neighborhoods close-in with good schools and have a reasonable mortgage that we want. But they have already appreciated past the point that they are affordable.

I also think a lot of us were sold a bag of goods that if we worked hard and got a good education, we'd be able to afford a solid middle class life. Instead, we have student loans and housing costs that either require buying in a not-so-safe area or commuting a long distance. I'm a lawyer and DH is a consultant with an MBA. We didn't work this hard in life to raise our kids in a neighborhood with all the crime, drugs, and broken bottles you mention. Sure -- that is an option for people. But I don't think that is an option most people who want to be middle class dream of.

FWIW, I live and work in NoVa, so taking a chance on charter schools isn't an option for us (my commute would be worse if I lived in the city). A lot of Northern VA is already crazy expensive and the "up and coming" areas are being bid up by people who can spend more on a tear down LOT (that they're going to build a 1.5 million house on) than I can pay for my entire house.

There are still neighborhoods that are close-in where you can buy a fixer upper and have a reasonable mortgage. (Not my neighborhood, anymore, but others just like it, with just as questionable schools and lots of poor people - just like mine ten years ago). You just want to have it all. You can't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the PP who took a gamble on an up and coming neighborhood is missing the point by making comments about how appreciation doesn't do him/her any good. It's not the appreciation per se that most of us want. It's the ability to buy into these neighborhoods close-in with good schools and have a reasonable mortgage that we want. But they have already appreciated past the point that they are affordable.

I also think a lot of us were sold a bag of goods that if we worked hard and got a good education, we'd be able to afford a solid middle class life. Instead, we have student loans and housing costs that either require buying in a not-so-safe area or commuting a long distance. I'm a lawyer and DH is a consultant with an MBA. We didn't work this hard in life to raise our kids in a neighborhood with all the crime, drugs, and broken bottles you mention. Sure -- that is an option for people. But I don't think that is an option most people who want to be middle class dream of.

FWIW, I live and work in NoVa, so taking a chance on charter schools isn't an option for us (my commute would be worse if I lived in the city). A lot of Northern VA is already crazy expensive and the "up and coming" areas are being bid up by people who can spend more on a tear down LOT (that they're going to build a 1.5 million house on) than I can pay for my entire house.

There are still neighborhoods that are close-in where you can buy a fixer upper and have a reasonable mortgage. (Not my neighborhood, anymore, but others just like it, with just as questionable schools and lots of poor people - just like mine ten years ago). You just want to have it all. You can't.

I agree. Those of us with less make compromises because we have to. Those with more seem to expect they should have everything. Well life doesn't necessarily work that way. Deal with reality - not what conditions were like 30 years ago.