American Women Are Giving Up on Marriage (Wall Street Journal)

[Anonymous]

I mean, I guess I did choose poorly.

But I’m not ranting about people being married- I’ve tried it. I’m explaining why- having tried it- I don’t need or want to try it or a relationship approximating it, again.

Have you tried being single after marriage? Have you tried being single and independently wealthy? If so I’d love to hear your opinion. If not and you just picked at my post because it triggered something in you, all the best.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Marriage for a highly paid woman is like signing up for a servitude contract without any guarantees of payback. She enters it while still young and desirable for her fertility. When she's over 40, husband can just dump her and divide everything. Men are only valuing women for their looks, fertility and sexuality. Why enter a union where you are only needed for the qualities that last just as much, only to get disposed with HUGE collateral damage to you and your children in 10-20 years?

Marriage is only attractive to women without a good earning capacity.

Good point. Unless one strives to be a tradwife (fine if you want that), it’s not a good deal for women. Why cook for 2 when you could for 1? Why clean for 2 when it’s likely cleaner without a man and easier to clean? Many women can get easy casual sex if they want, but many would rather grab the rabbit. Unless you literally cannot provide for yourself (tradwife), it’s easier to go at it alone.

If you want a transactional tit for tat set up then marriage is clearly not for you. If you love and enjoy each other then you don't mind doing things for each other.

Give it up. women don’t want to be unpaid labor for men any more, which is a big big reason for the fertility decline.

And I think the big precursor to this was women returning to the work force full time in large numbers. Say what you want about the SAHM dynamic, but for women okay with (or wanting to) perform those duties, it feels a lot less like "unpaid" labor and instead more like a partnership. Obviously if you hate housekeeping and childrearing then that isn't going to work for you. But as a long-time SAHM with a financially successful husband, I don't feel like my labor is unpaid. I live a very nice life. And I am a lot less resentful than most of them women on this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you are really jaded. You act like no women has ever been happily married to a non-jerk before. That's really sad.

I'm not saying everyone wants a husband and children, but my husband and children enrich my life in so many ways and I would be very lonely and sad without them. Yes it's more "work" too - but I honestly don't know what I would do with all of my free time instead. No hobby takes that much time!

This place is an echo chamber of unhappy women. It serves basically the same function as an incel message board in reverse; it highlights the negative experiences of some people and encourages people reading it to identify with those negative experiences. It is, very often, pretty much removed from reality. Look at the conversation on housework and childcare. On average, women in households with children do more of those things than men, it's true. Men do, on average, about 16.5 hours per week of housework and childcare and women do around 31. Men, in turn, do paid work for 38.4 hours per week, to women's 21.6. The result is that men's combination of paid and unpaid work is slightly higher than women's, but overall it's essentially even.
Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2013/03/14/chapter-6-time-in-work-and-leisure-patterns-by-gender-and-family-structure/ which draws on the American Time Used Study

That's not the story you get here though. The story you get here both ignores the fact that men, on average, are doing housework and childcare (a couple hours a day on average) and that they're doing paid work enough more than women to more than offset the extra unpaid labor at home.

Proof is in the pudding, babe. women are choosing not to get married or have kids. It’s not because DCUM is populated by unhappy harpies. It’s because it’s too hard and unrewarding.

Absolutely true. I’m no “female incel”. I have sons and brothers and a father who was a great provider.

I am, however, a product of my lived experience. I’m attractive, fit, interesting and attractive. I’m independently wealthy thanks to that same father I love. But the idea of taking on a man on a full time basis again isn’t attractive to me in any way. I take lovers when I want to and won’t cohabitate or marry one again. Ever. So much hassle. I’ have yet to meet a man who does life better than me. If I find one, my opinion might change- but it’s been 8 years of enjoying my divorced life and I haven’t found anyone even remotely close.‘I love men! Love sleeping with them, flirting with them, being friends with them. At the same time, I will not tie myself to one legally or financially ever again.

I love how there are all these divorcees and women in failing relationships ranting at those who say marriage can be good if you choose wisely.

Ladies, we get it, you chose poorly. But that doesn't make you an expert on relationships. But your responses (and way of responding) do shed light on at least some reasons your relationships failed.

The numbers don’t lie.

men’s refusal to accept that women collectively reject the conditions of modern marriage will result in the continuing cratering of the birth rate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I mean, I guess I did choose poorly.

But I’m not ranting about people being married- I’ve tried it. I’m explaining why- having tried it- I don’t need or want to try it or a relationship approximating it, again.

Have you tried being single after marriage? Have you tried being single and independently wealthy? If so I’d love to hear your opinion. If not and you just picked at my post because it triggered something in you, all the best.

You were commenting on a post about societal trends. My point is that maybe the problem in your relationships is unique to you and not instructive as to larger trends. I think this is true based on your responses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Marriage for a highly paid woman is like signing up for a servitude contract without any guarantees of payback. She enters it while still young and desirable for her fertility. When she's over 40, husband can just dump her and divide everything. Men are only valuing women for their looks, fertility and sexuality. Why enter a union where you are only needed for the qualities that last just as much, only to get disposed with HUGE collateral damage to you and your children in 10-20 years?

Marriage is only attractive to women without a good earning capacity.

Good point. Unless one strives to be a tradwife (fine if you want that), it’s not a good deal for women. Why cook for 2 when you could for 1? Why clean for 2 when it’s likely cleaner without a man and easier to clean? Many women can get easy casual sex if they want, but many would rather grab the rabbit. Unless you literally cannot provide for yourself (tradwife), it’s easier to go at it alone.

If you want a transactional tit for tat set up then marriage is clearly not for you. If you love and enjoy each other then you don't mind doing things for each other.

Give it up. women don’t want to be unpaid labor for men any more, which is a big big reason for the fertility decline.

And I think the big precursor to this was women returning to the work force full time in large numbers. Say what you want about the SAHM dynamic, but for women okay with (or wanting to) perform those duties, it feels a lot less like "unpaid" labor and instead more like a partnership. Obviously if you hate housekeeping and childrearing then that isn't going to work for you. But as a long-time SAHM with a financially successful husband, I don't feel like my labor is unpaid. I live a very nice life. And I am a lot less resentful than most of them women on this thread.

Gosh another one who doesn’t get it. this isn’t about your supposedly Donna Reed experience. It’s about what women experience on average, and what they do in response, in every setting where they are able to control their marital status and fertility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, I guess I did choose poorly.

But I’m not ranting about people being married- I’ve tried it. I’m explaining why- having tried it- I don’t need or want to try it or a relationship approximating it, again.

Have you tried being single after marriage? Have you tried being single and independently wealthy? If so I’d love to hear your opinion. If not and you just picked at my post because it triggered something in you, all the best.

You were commenting on a post about societal trends. My point is that maybe the problem in your relationships is unique to you and not instructive as to larger trends. I think this is true based on your responses.

But … the societal trends support what PP was saying as her experience being generalizable.

[Anonymous]

All the money and asset in our marriage and through inheritance is co-owned by DH and I.

My most important task is to set our kids up for success and give them the various leg-ups in life to help them succeed. Both of us are responsible for a smooth running and functional household and a happy married life.


DH and my fate are intertwined. We are a unit.

[Anonymous]

I see references to studies comparing time spent with paid/unpaid work. I'd be interested to see sort of the negative of this - comparing time spent on leisure/sleeping to see if, as you'd suspect from the work measurements, men are spending more time sitting around, sleeping, or doing hobbies.

And, if the disparity in time spent working didn't translate to a more or less corresponding disparity in time spent on leisure, it would be interesting to figure out why not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those women are not settling for men who are not compatible, full partners. Nothing wrong with that. It sounds like if any of them met the right guy, they'd consider marriage.

But, doesn't that mean men are giving up too? The population of the U.S. is 50.5% female. If they aren't getting married, neither are men. Or is something going wrong with a large portion of the male population making them incompatible marriage partners?

Both genders are becoming increasingly unattractive to the other. You have more men growing up to be directionless incel losers, you have more women becoming fat and having delusional standards.

Politics is more extreme now so conservative men and liberal women are finding decreased ability to find common ground. Economically men are losing their appeal, women need them less and they have less to offer in the first place. Socially, there are fewer places to meet in person so we see increased use of online dating which is a very harsh environment and fosters the idea that everyone you meet is disposable, top 5% of men rake it in while bottom 95% get next to nothing.

I strongly disagree in a post-GLP1 world—half my neighborhood has shrunk.

This

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I see references to studies comparing time spent with paid/unpaid work. I'd be interested to see sort of the negative of this - comparing time spent on leisure/sleeping to see if, as you'd suspect from the work measurements, men are spending more time sitting around, sleeping, or doing hobbies.

And, if the disparity in time spent working didn't translate to a more or less corresponding disparity in time spent on leisure, it would be interesting to figure out why not.

Men spend more time on leisure, women spend more time sleeping: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/10/27/working-husbands-in-the-us-have-more-leisure-time-than-working-wives-do-especially-among-those-with-children/?utm_source=Pew+Research+Center&utm_campaign=6da143ade5-Weekly_10-28-23&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-6da143ade5-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, I guess I did choose poorly.

But I’m not ranting about people being married- I’ve tried it. I’m explaining why- having tried it- I don’t need or want to try it or a relationship approximating it, again.

Have you tried being single after marriage? Have you tried being single and independently wealthy? If so I’d love to hear your opinion. If not and you just picked at my post because it triggered something in you, all the best.

You were commenting on a post about societal trends. My point is that maybe the problem in your relationships is unique to you and not instructive as to larger trends. I think this is true based on your responses.

My experience is aligned with the tends I was commenting on.

You want to make this about me when millions of women agree with me- per the facts

Pick elsewhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see references to studies comparing time spent with paid/unpaid work. I'd be interested to see sort of the negative of this - comparing time spent on leisure/sleeping to see if, as you'd suspect from the work measurements, men are spending more time sitting around, sleeping, or doing hobbies.

And, if the disparity in time spent working didn't translate to a more or less corresponding disparity in time spent on leisure, it would be interesting to figure out why not.

Men spend more time on leisure, women spend more time sleeping: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/10/27/working-husbands-in-the-us-have-more-leisure-time-than-working-wives-do-especially-among-those-with-children/?utm_source=Pew+Research+Center&utm_campaign=6da143ade5-Weekly_10-28-23&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-6da143ade5-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D

Thanks! According to that, men spend about 86.8 hours/week on sleep & leisure and women spend about 86.3 hours/week on sleep & leisure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see references to studies comparing time spent with paid/unpaid work. I'd be interested to see sort of the negative of this - comparing time spent on leisure/sleeping to see if, as you'd suspect from the work measurements, men are spending more time sitting around, sleeping, or doing hobbies.

And, if the disparity in time spent working didn't translate to a more or less corresponding disparity in time spent on leisure, it would be interesting to figure out why not.

Men spend more time on leisure, women spend more time sleeping: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/10/27/working-husbands-in-the-us-have-more-leisure-time-than-working-wives-do-especially-among-those-with-children/?utm_source=Pew+Research+Center&utm_campaign=6da143ade5-Weekly_10-28-23&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-6da143ade5-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D

Thanks! According to that, men spend about 86.8 hours/week on sleep & leisure and women spend about 86.3 hours/week on sleep & leisure.

In that study, leisure is specific activities. There are unaccounted for hours in the study, when you subtract out all the different categories (work, sleep, leisure, etc.).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All the money and asset in our marriage and through inheritance is co-owned by DH and I.

My most important task is to set our kids up for success and give them the various leg-ups in life to help them succeed. Both of us are responsible for a smooth running and functional household and a happy married life.


DH and my fate are intertwined. We are a unit.

Until you die and he remarries immediately and leaves all the money to her 😂

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, I guess I did choose poorly.

But I’m not ranting about people being married- I’ve tried it. I’m explaining why- having tried it- I don’t need or want to try it or a relationship approximating it, again.

Have you tried being single after marriage? Have you tried being single and independently wealthy? If so I’d love to hear your opinion. If not and you just picked at my post because it triggered something in you, all the best.

You were commenting on a post about societal trends. My point is that maybe the problem in your relationships is unique to you and not instructive as to larger trends. I think this is true based on your responses.

My experience is aligned with the tends I was commenting on.

You want to make this about me when millions of women agree with me- per the facts

Pick elsewhere.

Billions when you account for China, South Korea, and Japan, as discussed on this thread. South Korea can't even pay women to get married and have kids. What are the long-term consequences of a negative birthrate? Is it that bad? AI is getting better at doing our work at an exponential rate.