Anonymous wrote:The option schools (other than immersion which I strongly support) are terrible for APS. It is a brain drain of the neighborhood schools (mostly South Arlington. The problem with the post is that the author is one of those people that sees everything through a race lens even when it’s not the major driver (if at all) for people opting out of neighborhood schools.
Option schools are diverse but it is full of families who take initiative in their kids education. Their scores are better and they have more homework, structure, dress codes, etc. those are things my family values. All these families leaving their neighborhood schools to opt in to a more “traditional” or Montessori education are hurting the neighborhood. This is because the biggest indicator of success is a child’s peers. We should end the option programs and replicate what works (ATS) across APS. If you want a special Montessori curriculum for your kids, go private or start lobbying for school choice because that’s what’s you want.
(Side bar on immersion: these are the best environments for kids learning English and/or Spanish. As we get more EL students these programs are even more important. Ideally any kid not speaking English fluently would be in immersion that is 50-50 English/spanish).
Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t one of the main posters send their kid to a high school program that they’re not zoned for?
Yes, but I think that was part of the complaint, that the program is overwhelmingly white. So parents taking advantage of the choices aren’t contributing positively to SES diversity. That said, we completed an application for said program even though we were pretty sure our DC wanted to stay in the zoned HS, and it was a barrier in my mind. They required an essay, as does Arl Tech, and that alone made it seem “exclusive,” and not just a lottery not based on “merit.” So it’s not a real surprise to me that it’s attracting a certain type of family/student, ones who aren’t intimidated by the barrier.
But these programs are not designed specifically for SES diversity. It would be one thing if that is how they were designed/marketed, but... they aren't. More change needed of course.
Sure, but I think the point is if it’s not contributing it might be harming, and that’s not great. I don’t agree that this is the case at the ES level, because walkable ES boundaries just cannot make desegregated schools at this level, even if you remove all the option schools. You’d just be shuffling the segregation to an alternate school. And the policies in place, to a large degree, have kept the option ES a fairly close reflection of the overall APS demographic.
But the option programs at the MS and HS level are not reflective of the APS demographic and that feels wrong to me, and to the poster. Seems like a policy issue here, and one that’s solvable.
Yes and no. Admissions policies could potentially require %s of male/female; %sED; etc. But if academic preparedness and learning style and subject-matter passion aren't aligned, no such student should be admitted to a program designed for those things. And if an option program is not designed for those things, then it shouldn't be an option - because it's really not a unique program. The whole purpose of an alternative instructional model is to address the different learning styles of students. Not to give families options for the sake of having options or to create schools of specific demographics.
The real solution is to address education at the elementary and middle school levels and eliminate achievement gaps so that students from all backgrounds are (1) prepared for a specific program and (2) have more interest in such programs. In conjunction, admission policies such as "x" number of slots available for students from each elementary or middle school (like HBW admissions) help; but fuller admission policies that include demographics like I mentioned above would produce much better diversity results.
Correct, but how? If you know the answer, AND how you can get the community to buy in to implement the how when it seems like their precious snowflakes might not have each and every advantage all for themselves, in all sincerity you should be in charge.
APS needs to lead. Sometimes you lead and people eventually follow, rather than never leading and waiting for 100% "buy-in." That's the dog wagging the tail rather than the tail wagging the dog. I don't believe implementing a new way would actually be the ruin of APS. People will flee but ultimately the system would be accepted. There's almost always a period of transition when major change takes place. Like the CT school that eliminated cell phones during the school day. They LED! They made a sound policy choice in the best interest of student learning and took the attitude that people will just have to adjust and deal with it. THAT's leadership because they also took concerns into consideration and calmly respond and bring people aboard AFTERward. They had faith they were doing the right thing and trusted it to work out. APS "leadership" doesn't have that trust in its students or its community.
Rank choice is the San Francisco model, and that was a disaster.
It's the model in other places, too. It is notably the Cambridge MA model and it was not a disaster.
Anonymous wrote:I don't understand this thread. My daughter was zoned for a North Arlington school, and we lotteried into Campbell, which is far more diverse and a Title I school. Many of her friends at Campbell were zoned for diverse South Arlington schools, but they lotteried from one diverse, high FARMS school into a different diverse, high FARMS school.
You're not the "problem." The problem is that families in South Arlington have "liberal or progressive values" and yet they all are clamoring to escape their neighborhood schools. These same people think charter schools and school choice/vouchers are TERRIBLE yet they functionally are taking advantage of those programs. It causes a brain drain in those neighborhood schools. The best indicator future success is your peer group. Every family in SA that cares about education is moving out. It has nothing to do with race or class as many rightly pointed out that the option schools are very diverse both racially and economically (based on FRL status).
Speak for yourself. Not 'all" of us in the south are clamoring to escape our neighborhood school but still care about education.
Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.
Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.
Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.
It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.
Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.
What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?
But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)
But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.
Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.
I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.
I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>
Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.
I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.
I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.
My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.
So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.
People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.
I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.
It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.
Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.
Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.
And I don’t blame people for it!
Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.
DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.
All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.
Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.
Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.
Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.
Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.
I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).
ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.
If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.
"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home
Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.
All students at ATS have stay at home mothers?
Keep digging for excuses!
No I don't. I've observed all of the "involved" parents at my schools all work from home or are "ladies that lunch". You know, the people who have time to take on all of that volunteer work. Also, not every parent at ATS is "involved".
Involved enough to enter their child into the lottery and make sure the homework gets done. Involved enough to back the school up when it comes to discipline.
One doesn’t have to volunteer in the classroom to be involved.
That's true for every APS option school. But none of them have the results ATS has.
People are talking about different kinds of parent involvement. Not every parent has time to be on the PTA or room parent. But most parents want more information on what their kids are learning in school and if they are struggling. Every ATS parent has access to that every single week. It's hit or miss at other schools.
ATS parents have bought into strict rules regarding behavior. No excuses for your kid being a turd.
ATS parent. Not sure what these "strict" rules for behavior are. Our kids don't even tuck their shirts in anymore.
Right, but are kids permitted to stay if they throw a chair at a teacher? Don’t turn in their homework? Constantly disrupt the class?
I don’t think ATS is super strict, but behavior in some of our other schools is SO low. And teachers can’t do anything about it because admin doesn’t back them up.
Nothing like a kid kicking desks in the background but mom/dad make excuses for it.
This is a huge admin problem! Is this at a 70% FRL school or one of the opposites?
I think this could happen at any school, but how the parents may respond (or not) is what may differ.
While there may be some Karen types up north, the real problematic behavior — including severe chronic absenteeism — is concentrated in or high FRL schools.
Getting your kid to school, making them do their homework, teaching them to not be disrespectful to their teachers… these are PARENTING problems.
I don't blame parents for opting out of school environments where kids are kicking desks or worse. The problem is not south arlington parents choosing options, it's all the other parents and APS who deny there are differences between our schools.
THIS! "All our schools are great!" Well, "great" doesn't mean comparably the same experiences or outcomes.
Anonymous wrote:So, to summarize, it’s okay for SA families to go to option schools so long as they are honest about the reason—they don’t want to go to high poverty schools
And I’m okay with that so long as NA families are honest that they bought into their neighborhood schools and it has nothing to do with walkability
Anonymous wrote:I don't think any normal people care where you send your kids. What's unethical is drawing school boundaries that create schools with such uneven and severe disadvantages that people feel compelled to leave them. I can call myself a progressive and send my kid elsewhere in good conscience because progressives don't believe in segregation. I don't support any of the policies that concentrate poverty in certain schools, and immense wealth in others, but at the end of the day, my feelings don't matter and our elected officials don't care.
+1
Yep!
--but stayed with neighborhood Title 1 schools all the way through
Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.
Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.
Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.
It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.
Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.
What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?
But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)
But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.
Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.
I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.
I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>
Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.
I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.
I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.
My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.
So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.
People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.
I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.
It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.
Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.
Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.
And I don’t blame people for it!
Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.
DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.
All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.
Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.
Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.
Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.
Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.
I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).
ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.
If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.
"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home
Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.
All students at ATS have stay at home mothers?
Keep digging for excuses!
No I don't. I've observed all of the "involved" parents at my schools all work from home or are "ladies that lunch". You know, the people who have time to take on all of that volunteer work. Also, not every parent at ATS is "involved".
Involved enough to enter their child into the lottery and make sure the homework gets done. Involved enough to back the school up when it comes to discipline.
One doesn’t have to volunteer in the classroom to be involved.
That's true for every APS option school. But none of them have the results ATS has.
People are talking about different kinds of parent involvement. Not every parent has time to be on the PTA or room parent. But most parents want more information on what their kids are learning in school and if they are struggling. Every ATS parent has access to that every single week. It's hit or miss at other schools.
ATS parents have bought into strict rules regarding behavior. No excuses for your kid being a turd.
ATS parent. Not sure what these "strict" rules for behavior are. Our kids don't even tuck their shirts in anymore.
Right, but are kids permitted to stay if they throw a chair at a teacher? Don’t turn in their homework? Constantly disrupt the class?
I don’t think ATS is super strict, but behavior in some of our other schools is SO low. And teachers can’t do anything about it because admin doesn’t back them up.
Nothing like a kid kicking desks in the background but mom/dad make excuses for it.
This is a huge admin problem! Is this at a 70% FRL school or one of the opposites?
I think this could happen at any school, but how the parents may respond (or not) is what may differ.
Sure. The rich white north Arlington parent would throw their own hissy fit about discipline; but the poorer south Arlington parent would be supportive of the teacher and admin and helpful. I'm sure that's what you mean.
Please. Some SA families don’t even care if their kid goes to school at all. Look at chronic absenteeism rates.
that has nothing to do with South or North. I'm a YHS teacher and the lack of discipline regarding attendance is nonexistent.
The option programs in APS are a good middle ground between vouchers and charter schools and neighborhood school only concept. The barrier to enter the lottery is very low, I say this is somebody who has worked in the lowest of low income schools in Arlington. Almost all parents are able to access the Internet.
Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.
Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.
Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.
It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.
Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.
What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?
But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)
But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.
Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.
I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.
I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>
Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.
I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.
I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.
My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.
So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.
People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.
I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.
It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.
Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.
Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.
And I don’t blame people for it!
Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.
DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.
All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.
Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.
Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.
Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.
Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.
I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).
ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.
If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.
"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home
Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.
All students at ATS have stay at home mothers?
Keep digging for excuses!
No I don't. I've observed all of the "involved" parents at my schools all work from home or are "ladies that lunch". You know, the people who have time to take on all of that volunteer work. Also, not every parent at ATS is "involved".
Involved enough to enter their child into the lottery and make sure the homework gets done. Involved enough to back the school up when it comes to discipline.
One doesn’t have to volunteer in the classroom to be involved.
That's true for every APS option school. But none of them have the results ATS has.
People are talking about different kinds of parent involvement. Not every parent has time to be on the PTA or room parent. But most parents want more information on what their kids are learning in school and if they are struggling. Every ATS parent has access to that every single week. It's hit or miss at other schools.
ATS parents have bought into strict rules regarding behavior. No excuses for your kid being a turd.
ATS parent. Not sure what these "strict" rules for behavior are. Our kids don't even tuck their shirts in anymore.
Right, but are kids permitted to stay if they throw a chair at a teacher? Don’t turn in their homework? Constantly disrupt the class?
I don’t think ATS is super strict, but behavior in some of our other schools is SO low. And teachers can’t do anything about it because admin doesn’t back them up.
Nothing like a kid kicking desks in the background but mom/dad make excuses for it.
This is a huge admin problem! Is this at a 70% FRL school or one of the opposites?
I think this could happen at any school, but how the parents may respond (or not) is what may differ.
Sure. The rich white north Arlington parent would throw their own hissy fit about discipline; but the poorer south Arlington parent would be supportive of the teacher and admin and helpful. I'm sure that's what you mean.
Please. Some SA families don’t even care if their kid goes to school at all. Look at chronic absenteeism rates.
that has nothing to do with South or North. I'm a YHS teacher and the lack of discipline regarding attendance is nonexistent.
I was going to say, I don't know any SA families pulling their kids out of high school for a week in the spring to go skiing if Spring Break falls too late....
Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.
Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.
Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.
It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.
Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.
What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?
But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)
But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.
Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.
I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.
I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>
Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.
I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.
I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.
My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.
So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.
People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.
I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.
It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.
Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.
Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.
And I don’t blame people for it!
Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.
DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.
All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.
Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.
Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.
Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.
Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.
I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).
ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.
If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.
"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home
Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.
All students at ATS have stay at home mothers?
Keep digging for excuses!
No I don't. I've observed all of the "involved" parents at my schools all work from home or are "ladies that lunch". You know, the people who have time to take on all of that volunteer work. Also, not every parent at ATS is "involved".
Involved enough to enter their child into the lottery and make sure the homework gets done. Involved enough to back the school up when it comes to discipline.
One doesn’t have to volunteer in the classroom to be involved.
That's true for every APS option school. But none of them have the results ATS has.
People are talking about different kinds of parent involvement. Not every parent has time to be on the PTA or room parent. But most parents want more information on what their kids are learning in school and if they are struggling. Every ATS parent has access to that every single week. It's hit or miss at other schools.
ATS parents have bought into strict rules regarding behavior. No excuses for your kid being a turd.
ATS parent. Not sure what these "strict" rules for behavior are. Our kids don't even tuck their shirts in anymore.
Right, but are kids permitted to stay if they throw a chair at a teacher? Don’t turn in their homework? Constantly disrupt the class?
I don’t think ATS is super strict, but behavior in some of our other schools is SO low. And teachers can’t do anything about it because admin doesn’t back them up.
Nothing like a kid kicking desks in the background but mom/dad make excuses for it.
This is a huge admin problem! Is this at a 70% FRL school or one of the opposites?
I think this could happen at any school, but how the parents may respond (or not) is what may differ.
Sure. The rich white north Arlington parent would throw their own hissy fit about discipline; but the poorer south Arlington parent would be supportive of the teacher and admin and helpful. I'm sure that's what you mean.
Please. Some SA families don’t even care if their kid goes to school at all. Look at chronic absenteeism rates.
that has nothing to do with South or North. I'm a YHS teacher and the lack of discipline regarding attendance is nonexistent.
I was going to say, I don't know any SA families pulling their kids out of high school for a week in the spring to go skiing if Spring Break falls too late....
There are plenty of families that leave for a month to go to their home countries, though. I spoke to a girl this morning who said it's their last day before they go on vacation for the next 4 months.
Anonymous wrote:I don't understand this thread. My daughter was zoned for a North Arlington school, and we lotteried into Campbell, which is far more diverse and a Title I school. Many of her friends at Campbell were zoned for diverse South Arlington schools, but they lotteried from one diverse, high FARMS school into a different diverse, high FARMS school.
You're not the "problem." The problem is that families in South Arlington have "liberal or progressive values" and yet they all are clamoring to escape their neighborhood schools. These same people think charter schools and school choice/vouchers are TERRIBLE yet they functionally are taking advantage of those programs. It causes a brain drain in those neighborhood schools. The best indicator future success is your peer group. Every family in SA that cares about education is moving out. It has nothing to do with race or class as many rightly pointed out that the option schools are very diverse both racially and economically (based on FRL status).
+1 APS options are not ethically better than charter schools. They are draining resources from our neighborhood schools. Kids and money both. They give south arlington parents the advantages that north arlington parents buy into. Stable schools with less student and teacher turnover, less chronic absenteeism, you name it. We just dress it up in "pedagogical differences'.
Talk about saying the quiet part out loud
It's true. that's why all the hit dogs are hollerin.
Sup SW. didn’t you send your kid to private school?
Funny. Doesn't most of APE send one or more of their kids to private school too? And yet, they still can't stop talking about APS.
Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.
Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.
Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.
It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.
Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.
What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?
But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)
But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.
Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.
I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.
I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>
Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.
I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.
I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.
My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.
So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.
People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.
I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.
It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.
Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.
Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.
And I don’t blame people for it!
Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.
DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.
All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.
Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.
Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.
Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.
Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.
I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).
ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.
If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.
"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home
Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.
All students at ATS have stay at home mothers?
Keep digging for excuses!
No I don't. I've observed all of the "involved" parents at my schools all work from home or are "ladies that lunch". You know, the people who have time to take on all of that volunteer work. Also, not every parent at ATS is "involved".
Involved enough to enter their child into the lottery and make sure the homework gets done. Involved enough to back the school up when it comes to discipline.
One doesn’t have to volunteer in the classroom to be involved.
That's true for every APS option school. But none of them have the results ATS has.
People are talking about different kinds of parent involvement. Not every parent has time to be on the PTA or room parent. But most parents want more information on what their kids are learning in school and if they are struggling. Every ATS parent has access to that every single week. It's hit or miss at other schools.
ATS parents have bought into strict rules regarding behavior. No excuses for your kid being a turd.
ATS parent. Not sure what these "strict" rules for behavior are. Our kids don't even tuck their shirts in anymore.
Right, but are kids permitted to stay if they throw a chair at a teacher? Don’t turn in their homework? Constantly disrupt the class?
I don’t think ATS is super strict, but behavior in some of our other schools is SO low. And teachers can’t do anything about it because admin doesn’t back them up.
Nothing like a kid kicking desks in the background but mom/dad make excuses for it.
This is a huge admin problem! Is this at a 70% FRL school or one of the opposites?
I think this could happen at any school, but how the parents may respond (or not) is what may differ.
Sure. The rich white north Arlington parent would throw their own hissy fit about discipline; but the poorer south Arlington parent would be supportive of the teacher and admin and helpful. I'm sure that's what you mean.
Please. Some SA families don’t even care if their kid goes to school at all. Look at chronic absenteeism rates.
that has nothing to do with South or North. I'm a YHS teacher and the lack of discipline regarding attendance is nonexistent.
I was going to say, I don't know any SA families pulling their kids out of high school for a week in the spring to go skiing if Spring Break falls too late....
... or coming back to school a week or two after Day 1 because of their very important beach holiday over Labor Day.
Anonymous wrote:So, to summarize, it’s okay for SA families to go to option schools so long as they are honest about the reason—they don’t want to go to high poverty schools
And I’m okay with that so long as NA families are honest that they bought into their neighborhood schools and it has nothing to do with walkability
Parents are rational actors and will act in the best interest of their children.
I'm a North Arlington parent. Of course I bought here with schools as a big factor. Along with other things, like commute, neighborhood, etc. I didn't really understand what "good schools" meant back in that day. I will say after experiencing the North Arlington neighborhood school, that I would prefer to have my kids in a more diverse school. My kids later had the opportunity to go to a choice school that is more diverse than our neighborhood school. We chose it for many reasons (too personal to post). It was not explicitly for more diversity, but that has been a wonderful plus to the option school.
Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.
Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.
Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.
It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.
Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.
What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?
But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)
But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.
Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.
I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.
I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>
Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.
I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.
I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.
My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.
So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.
People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.
I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.
It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.
Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.
Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.
And I don’t blame people for it!
Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.
DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.
All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.
Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.
Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.
Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.
Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.
I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).
ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.
If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.
"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home
Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.
All students at ATS have stay at home mothers?
Keep digging for excuses!
No I don't. I've observed all of the "involved" parents at my schools all work from home or are "ladies that lunch". You know, the people who have time to take on all of that volunteer work. Also, not every parent at ATS is "involved".
Involved enough to enter their child into the lottery and make sure the homework gets done. Involved enough to back the school up when it comes to discipline.
One doesn’t have to volunteer in the classroom to be involved.
That's true for every APS option school. But none of them have the results ATS has.
People are talking about different kinds of parent involvement. Not every parent has time to be on the PTA or room parent. But most parents want more information on what their kids are learning in school and if they are struggling. Every ATS parent has access to that every single week. It's hit or miss at other schools.
ATS parents have bought into strict rules regarding behavior. No excuses for your kid being a turd.
ATS parent. Not sure what these "strict" rules for behavior are. Our kids don't even tuck their shirts in anymore.
Right, but are kids permitted to stay if they throw a chair at a teacher? Don’t turn in their homework? Constantly disrupt the class?
I don’t think ATS is super strict, but behavior in some of our other schools is SO low. And teachers can’t do anything about it because admin doesn’t back them up.
Nothing like a kid kicking desks in the background but mom/dad make excuses for it.
This is a huge admin problem! Is this at a 70% FRL school or one of the opposites?
I think this could happen at any school, but how the parents may respond (or not) is what may differ.
Sure. The rich white north Arlington parent would throw their own hissy fit about discipline; but the poorer south Arlington parent would be supportive of the teacher and admin and helpful. I'm sure that's what you mean.
Please. Some SA families don’t even care if their kid goes to school at all. Look at chronic absenteeism rates.
that has nothing to do with South or North. I'm a YHS teacher and the lack of discipline regarding attendance is nonexistent.
Rates of chronic absenteeism by school are easily found online. You’re saying they’re the same all over the county?
“I’m a teacher at Yorktown and I don’t have a clue.”
Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.
Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.
Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.
It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.
Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.
What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?
But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)
But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.
Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.
I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.
I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>
Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.
I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.
I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.
My kids go to a choice school more diverse than our neighborhood school. The diversity was a bonus to us, but it wasn't the driving factor in transferring. Two things can be true at the same time.
So true. Most people I know are happy to have more diversity in their children’s schools, as long as school performance is top-notch.
People want quality instruction and good outcomes. Period.
I think the point was if diversity was the only factor, you’d have no problems administratively transferring your kid to Carlin Springs. It’s not the only consideration though. There’s a reason why options programs exist. All children should be in an environment with the best learning outcomes. Including those at Drew and Carlin springs.
It’s not the parent’s fault though that structural racism exists. If we had stronger APS and County leadership, maybe we can start addressing the issue. JF’s post was self serving though.
Of course diversity isn’t the only factor! Honestly, I think for most people it’s just a nice little add on when it exists.
Good test scores? Great!
Good test scores AND diversity? Super!
Bad test scores and (insert whatever you want)? That’s a tough sell.
And I don’t blame people for it!
Want actual change? Stop building affordable housing south of 50 and shift it up north. That will actually move the needle.
DP. I don’t think that OP is disagreeing with you. You owned your decision to send your children to option schools. They’re just commenting that high FARM schools should be great schools too. But that’s a school board and county leadership problem. Stop blaming parents for their own institutional inaction and neglect.
All of our schools can be good — I agree. Create opt-in programs (ATS style) within each school. This is a PARENTING problem, too! Get family buy in. Just because something is harder for you than a millionaire on the other side of the county doesn’t mean you can’t do it.
Fifty books over the summer is less than a book per day after all.
Expect more from your kids and let their teachers have high expectations, too. If that’s too hard, well then, stop whining.
Not all poor people are disengaged or don't "buy in" to their kids' education. Not all people who don't "buy in" are minorities or poor. Many minority communities value education more than some white folks and are far more invested and engaged. It isn't about "buy in." When you have high concentrations of underprivileged kids starting behind and add in high proportions of those students learning English, you are not going to get the same test scores everyone at ATS is expected to achieve. Period.
Not once did I mention race in all of this. ATS has proven kids of all races and income level can be high achievers.
I’m sure there are many, many black and Hispanic children on the ATS waitlist. It isn’t just white families that believe in the program. So why not create an opt-in version at EVERY school. You get the benefits of staying in your neighborhood school while having access to higher expectations (if you desire it).
ATS has successful outcomes for kids of all socioeconomic levels and races b/c all those kids have one thing in common- parents who are invested in their kids education. Everyone there had to opt in. Its not the 'education model' its the invested parents. In general lower socioeconomic status is just a proxy for less involved parents, there certainly are parents of lower socioeconomic status who are invested in their kids education. If you created an "ats" in every school, all you would be doing is further segregating the involved parents from the less involved parents.
I have many friends in south arlington who tried their neighborhood school for a year- they had rose colored glasses- "I'm going to be an involved parent," etc. For a variety of different reasons, it didn't work. Some of them lotteried their children into an option school. Some of them went private. Some of them homeschooled. I don't know what the answer is- Of course the option schools are contributing to the economic segregation in Arlington. Would getting rid of the option schools reduce that economic segregation??? maybe? maybe more families would go private or move?? maybe some combination??? FWIW, my family was in immersion and pulled out after a couple of years b/c it was not a good fit. We returned to our North Arlington neighborhood school. The immersion school had a vastly more involved parent community then the north arlington neighborhood school, even though the neighborhood school was 'richer.' Option schools do attract a more involved parent.
If you separate the kids with involved parents from the general population (by having them opt in), it would demonstrate how a child can succeed regardless of race or income level. Perhaps more families would opt in over time.
"Involved parents" = those who are stay at home moms/work from home
Sucks to have three jobs, a couple of preschool kids at home, and unreliable transportation.
All students at ATS have stay at home mothers?
Keep digging for excuses!
No I don't. I've observed all of the "involved" parents at my schools all work from home or are "ladies that lunch". You know, the people who have time to take on all of that volunteer work. Also, not every parent at ATS is "involved".
Involved enough to enter their child into the lottery and make sure the homework gets done. Involved enough to back the school up when it comes to discipline.
One doesn’t have to volunteer in the classroom to be involved.
That's true for every APS option school. But none of them have the results ATS has.
People are talking about different kinds of parent involvement. Not every parent has time to be on the PTA or room parent. But most parents want more information on what their kids are learning in school and if they are struggling. Every ATS parent has access to that every single week. It's hit or miss at other schools.
ATS parents have bought into strict rules regarding behavior. No excuses for your kid being a turd.
ATS parent. Not sure what these "strict" rules for behavior are. Our kids don't even tuck their shirts in anymore.
Right, but are kids permitted to stay if they throw a chair at a teacher? Don’t turn in their homework? Constantly disrupt the class?
I don’t think ATS is super strict, but behavior in some of our other schools is SO low. And teachers can’t do anything about it because admin doesn’t back them up.
Nothing like a kid kicking desks in the background but mom/dad make excuses for it.
This is a huge admin problem! Is this at a 70% FRL school or one of the opposites?
I think this could happen at any school, but how the parents may respond (or not) is what may differ.
Sure. The rich white north Arlington parent would throw their own hissy fit about discipline; but the poorer south Arlington parent would be supportive of the teacher and admin and helpful. I'm sure that's what you mean.
Please. Some SA families don’t even care if their kid goes to school at all. Look at chronic absenteeism rates.
that has nothing to do with South or North. I'm a YHS teacher and the lack of discipline regarding attendance is nonexistent.
I was going to say, I don't know any SA families pulling their kids out of high school for a week in the spring to go skiing if Spring Break falls too late....
They just let them skip half the year for the hell of it!
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Talk about saying the quiet part out loud