Violence in Kindergarten- Sligo Creek Elementary

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not sped it kids coming from violent homes. There are plenty of parents out there who beat their kids

It is more kids coming from super permissive homes where there is no discipline just screens whenever the student demands it, no structure, and the kid who is often smart and strong willed soon realizes he or she can do whatever they want and the parent won't intervene. So the parent walks on eggshells or gives in to all the kid's demands because they don't want to see the kid tantrum. So the kid comes to school and realizes no one can touch them or do anything to them. The teacher tells the parent the student is misbehaving and there are NO consequences at home. There are also no rewards that are effective because the student gets whatever they want at home.

Teacher here. This is more likely the case. I have a student who is nearly as tall as I am and she's 6 yrs old. The only way her mom can get her to school (according to her mom) is to let her walk with her (the student's) phone. When mom gets her to the front door, she walks inside with her until she lines up with her class and then her mom tries to quickly pull the phone away and hightail it out of there. Needless to say, it's like WW3 every morning. My colleague and I end up blocking the door with our bodies to prevent her from running out the door after her mom. We've had meetings about this (and her other awful behaviors) but the real problem is mom's inability to say no. This child has tantrums like a 2 yr old multiple times per day. They last for at least 15 minutes and the entire class comes to a halt because she is screaming the entire time. This child doesn't have special needs. Her mother just doesn't want to parent so all of us get to deal with that. There are 3-4 of these kids in every grade.

I just spent 7 weeks working in an out of school time program at the YMCA in a Title I schools community.

Hands down, the kids with diagnoses or who were SPED were LESS disruptive and problematic than the kids who simply are not being parented, period.

These are average to above average intellect kids who are running the show in our classrooms and other youth development programs because the new social justice paradigm (I am, by the way, uber liberal and was an antiracist before the term was in any kind of widespread use) is that you don't discipline these kids or kick them out of the program as your progressive accountability structure allows - you just keep abiding and trying to give them positive incentives to conform their behavior to norms.

And in the meantime the vast majority of kids who make good choices are getting bullied and traumatized by witnesses bullying and assaults both physical and verbal on a regular basis - on them, their peers and yes, on their adult instructors.

For some percentage of kids, seeing those things on a regular basis normalizes that kind of behavior and violence and it invites some kids to engage in behaviors they never otherwise would have tried.

It's a disaster, truly. I was planning to go into public school teaching through a program that requires a 2 year commitment to a Title I school district and I've decided - NO THANKS.

It would be different if there was any accountability structure left for kids who make bad choices, but there really isn't. The school district where I was going to teach is one among many nationwide that have been sued for having an in school and out of school suspension program and for using it as designed. While investigation by the federal OCV found there was no intent to racial bias in using the progressive accountability structure, the majority of kids who ended up being in and out of school suspended were BIPOC and so it was no longer okay to use it because apparently we are just going to abide the behavior and that's going to motivate the kids to change and conform to social norms.

Is anyone really surprised that violence is more and more normative in our society?

What really makes me sad is that this is just a recycling of the soft bigotry of low expectations. These social justice warriors in our schools and other youth development program leadership structures think they a striking a blow for antiracism, but to me it looks like they are enabling and encouraging kids into the juvenile justice system and eventually likely the adult justice system, just in a different fashion than the previous school to prison pipeline.

And yes, plenty of the disruptive kids are white, too. We are failing all these kids whose parents already did. We'll pay the price down the road as we always have done.

You know it's going to be good anytime someone starts a rant assuring others that they're not a racist. And this one did not disappoint.

Let me guess, you have black friends, too?

I have spent my entire career working in BIPOC communities, and yes, many if not most of my friends are BIPOC.

It's so easy to jump to calling people racist if they want any accountability for the poor behavior choices of kids or adults and that happens to include in Title I communities a fair number of BIPOC kids.

Again, I've been uber liberal my whole life. My friends used to call me a thug hugger, and it was many of my BIPOC friends who most deeply criticized my idealism and progressive ideals.

Just for reference, I've spent my career as an educator, domestic violence advocate, CASA, legal aid attorney, public defender, prosecutor, solo law practice attorney who took poor clients and charged on a sliding scale like a nonprofit firm (I was definitely nonprofit, lol), and most recently working with a very mixed race population of elder and disabled healthcare clients, many on hospice status.

I lived and worked on a reservation out West, I lived and worked on the AZ/Mexico border, attended law school and did criminal clinic in DC with clients living mostly in SE and Anacostia, currently live in a very diverse area and work and socialize with a diverse community.

But yeah, I'm a racist. You caught me out. I must be racist if my desire to see the majority of kids of all colors succeed in our schools might mean that a small percentage of kids of color get suspended or placed in alternative school settings. I'm a big bad racist for wanting that.

I’m black and I’m aligned with everything you said. The people who justify the absence of structure and consequences for black and brown kids are the real racists. Discipline is a vital and essential part of raising a healthy, productive child. Their low expectations are racist. I refuse to believe that any bad behavior black and brown kids might exhibit must be tolerated in the name of antiracism. This is warped thinking at best and intentional poisonous programming at worst.

DP. I think it's horrible that this is the approach taken by schools in the name of anti racism. There is clear evidence that black and brown kids are disciplined differently than white kids though. The problem is schools don't want/know how to address that so they've decided to just stop disciplining kids at all which ends up being even worse for BIPOC kids.

In some communities, there is a disproportionate number of BIPOC kids in poverty and/or living in single-parent households. It is likely there would be disproportionate discipline outcomes for BIPOC kids as those two factors are known contributors to poor behavior. I don't think people really want to have that conversation anymore. It's easier to blame the schools and teachers.

I agree with you that there are structural issues that are likely driving some real differences in behavior itself, but:
1. Those structural issues are the direct result of explicitly or implicitly racist government policies or government-supported policies; and
2. There is very clear research showing that racial bias by teachers and other school staff leads to differences in discipline for the same behaviors.

One thing you will notice in the MCPS data is that Black students in particular are disciplined a LOT, much more so than Hispanic students. The difference is extremely stark, yet poverty is actually higher among Hispanic students. Some people may choose to explain this due to cultural differences, and maybe that plays a role, but to deny that racial bias might play a significant role in these disparities, given the local data and the large body of research on this topic, just doesn't pass the smell test.

https://www.npscoalition.org/post/racially-disproportionate-discipline-in-early-childhood-educational-settings
"There is no evidence that Black children display greater or more severe misbehavior.[i],[ii] Disproportionate preschool suspensions are the result of adult behaviors.[iii],[iv] Research suggests Black children are punished more severely than their peers for the same or similar behaviors and that they are subject to increased scrutiny starting as early as preschool. Research further suggests that Black children are often the subjects of teachers’ implicit racial bias, with adults perceiving Black children as older than they are, less innocent than their peers, more culpable and aggressive, and more deserving of harsher punishment than white children.[v],[vi] These disparities are often attributable to the lack of teacher training and ongoing supports."

We have to be careful when we talk about the disproportionality of student discipline by race.

The concerning behavior is physical assault, violence, weapons, drugs, etc. which I believe in disciplinary issues that are category 3 and above. Is there evidence that white kids are physically assaulting their peers and teachers and not being disciplined at the same rate as black and Hispanic kids? If so, bring forth the evidence. And if that is the case, why isn't the call to suspend and discipline MORE white kids at the same rate as black and Hispanic kids, instead of saying we should seek to decrease suspensions overall?

Do I believe there's discrimination for those lower-level suspensions due to the subjectively defined category 1 of "disrespect"? Absolutely. But you need to talk about these disparities with more specificity and nuance. There are categories of concerning student behavior with corresponding disciplinary actions that aligns with the category.

Parents, black, white or otherwise, DO NOT want leniency on suspensions for those student behaviors that are MOST concerning, which are tier 3 and above.

I'm not going to argue with someone that makes broad statements with racist undertones, demands I provide evidence to support my position but refuses to read the evidence I have already posted. Also, not sure if you noticed what I posted above ("The problem is schools don't want/know how to address that so they've decided to just stop disciplining kids at all which ends up being even worse for BIPOC kids.") So although I think you're kind of ignorant, I do think we actually agree that schools should manage and discipline student behaviors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not sped it kids coming from violent homes. There are plenty of parents out there who beat their kids

It is more kids coming from super permissive homes where there is no discipline just screens whenever the student demands it, no structure, and the kid who is often smart and strong willed soon realizes he or she can do whatever they want and the parent won't intervene. So the parent walks on eggshells or gives in to all the kid's demands because they don't want to see the kid tantrum. So the kid comes to school and realizes no one can touch them or do anything to them. The teacher tells the parent the student is misbehaving and there are NO consequences at home. There are also no rewards that are effective because the student gets whatever they want at home.

Teacher here. This is more likely the case. I have a student who is nearly as tall as I am and she's 6 yrs old. The only way her mom can get her to school (according to her mom) is to let her walk with her (the student's) phone. When mom gets her to the front door, she walks inside with her until she lines up with her class and then her mom tries to quickly pull the phone away and hightail it out of there. Needless to say, it's like WW3 every morning. My colleague and I end up blocking the door with our bodies to prevent her from running out the door after her mom. We've had meetings about this (and her other awful behaviors) but the real problem is mom's inability to say no. This child has tantrums like a 2 yr old multiple times per day. They last for at least 15 minutes and the entire class comes to a halt because she is screaming the entire time. This child doesn't have special needs. Her mother just doesn't want to parent so all of us get to deal with that. There are 3-4 of these kids in every grade.

I just spent 7 weeks working in an out of school time program at the YMCA in a Title I schools community.

Hands down, the kids with diagnoses or who were SPED were LESS disruptive and problematic than the kids who simply are not being parented, period.

These are average to above average intellect kids who are running the show in our classrooms and other youth development programs because the new social justice paradigm (I am, by the way, uber liberal and was an antiracist before the term was in any kind of widespread use) is that you don't discipline these kids or kick them out of the program as your progressive accountability structure allows - you just keep abiding and trying to give them positive incentives to conform their behavior to norms.

And in the meantime the vast majority of kids who make good choices are getting bullied and traumatized by witnesses bullying and assaults both physical and verbal on a regular basis - on them, their peers and yes, on their adult instructors.

For some percentage of kids, seeing those things on a regular basis normalizes that kind of behavior and violence and it invites some kids to engage in behaviors they never otherwise would have tried.

It's a disaster, truly. I was planning to go into public school teaching through a program that requires a 2 year commitment to a Title I school district and I've decided - NO THANKS.

It would be different if there was any accountability structure left for kids who make bad choices, but there really isn't. The school district where I was going to teach is one among many nationwide that have been sued for having an in school and out of school suspension program and for using it as designed. While investigation by the federal OCV found there was no intent to racial bias in using the progressive accountability structure, the majority of kids who ended up being in and out of school suspended were BIPOC and so it was no longer okay to use it because apparently we are just going to abide the behavior and that's going to motivate the kids to change and conform to social norms.

Is anyone really surprised that violence is more and more normative in our society?

What really makes me sad is that this is just a recycling of the soft bigotry of low expectations. These social justice warriors in our schools and other youth development program leadership structures think they a striking a blow for antiracism, but to me it looks like they are enabling and encouraging kids into the juvenile justice system and eventually likely the adult justice system, just in a different fashion than the previous school to prison pipeline.

And yes, plenty of the disruptive kids are white, too. We are failing all these kids whose parents already did. We'll pay the price down the road as we always have done.

You know it's going to be good anytime someone starts a rant assuring others that they're not a racist. And this one did not disappoint.

Let me guess, you have black friends, too?

I have spent my entire career working in BIPOC communities, and yes, many if not most of my friends are BIPOC.

It's so easy to jump to calling people racist if they want any accountability for the poor behavior choices of kids or adults and that happens to include in Title I communities a fair number of BIPOC kids.

Again, I've been uber liberal my whole life. My friends used to call me a thug hugger, and it was many of my BIPOC friends who most deeply criticized my idealism and progressive ideals.

Just for reference, I've spent my career as an educator, domestic violence advocate, CASA, legal aid attorney, public defender, prosecutor, solo law practice attorney who took poor clients and charged on a sliding scale like a nonprofit firm (I was definitely nonprofit, lol), and most recently working with a very mixed race population of elder and disabled healthcare clients, many on hospice status.

I lived and worked on a reservation out West, I lived and worked on the AZ/Mexico border, attended law school and did criminal clinic in DC with clients living mostly in SE and Anacostia, currently live in a very diverse area and work and socialize with a diverse community.

But yeah, I'm a racist. You caught me out. I must be racist if my desire to see the majority of kids of all colors succeed in our schools might mean that a small percentage of kids of color get suspended or placed in alternative school settings. I'm a big bad racist for wanting that.

I’m black and I’m aligned with everything you said. The people who justify the absence of structure and consequences for black and brown kids are the real racists. Discipline is a vital and essential part of raising a healthy, productive child. Their low expectations are racist. I refuse to believe that any bad behavior black and brown kids might exhibit must be tolerated in the name of antiracism. This is warped thinking at best and intentional poisonous programming at worst.

DP. I think it's horrible that this is the approach taken by schools in the name of anti racism. There is clear evidence that black and brown kids are disciplined differently than white kids though. The problem is schools don't want/know how to address that so they've decided to just stop disciplining kids at all which ends up being even worse for BIPOC kids.

In some communities, there is a disproportionate number of BIPOC kids in poverty and/or living in single-parent households. It is likely there would be disproportionate discipline outcomes for BIPOC kids as those two factors are known contributors to poor behavior. I don't think people really want to have that conversation anymore. It's easier to blame the schools and teachers.

I agree with you that there are structural issues that are likely driving some real differences in behavior itself, but:
1. Those structural issues are the direct result of explicitly or implicitly racist government policies or government-supported policies; and
2. There is very clear research showing that racial bias by teachers and other school staff leads to differences in discipline for the same behaviors.

One thing you will notice in the MCPS data is that Black students in particular are disciplined a LOT, much more so than Hispanic students. The difference is extremely stark, yet poverty is actually higher among Hispanic students. Some people may choose to explain this due to cultural differences, and maybe that plays a role, but to deny that racial bias might play a significant role in these disparities, given the local data and the large body of research on this topic, just doesn't pass the smell test.

https://www.npscoalition.org/post/racially-disproportionate-discipline-in-early-childhood-educational-settings
"There is no evidence that Black children display greater or more severe misbehavior.[i],[ii] Disproportionate preschool suspensions are the result of adult behaviors.[iii],[iv] Research suggests Black children are punished more severely than their peers for the same or similar behaviors and that they are subject to increased scrutiny starting as early as preschool. Research further suggests that Black children are often the subjects of teachers’ implicit racial bias, with adults perceiving Black children as older than they are, less innocent than their peers, more culpable and aggressive, and more deserving of harsher punishment than white children.[v],[vi] These disparities are often attributable to the lack of teacher training and ongoing supports."

We have to be careful when we talk about the disproportionality of student discipline by race.

The concerning behavior is physical assault, violence, weapons, drugs, etc. which I believe in disciplinary issues that are category 3 and above. Is there evidence that white kids are physically assaulting their peers and teachers and not being disciplined at the same rate as black and Hispanic kids? If so, bring forth the evidence. And if that is the case, why isn't the call to suspend and discipline MORE white kids at the same rate as black and Hispanic kids, instead of saying we should seek to decrease suspensions overall?

Do I believe there's discrimination for those lower-level suspensions due to the subjectively defined category 1 of "disrespect"? Absolutely. But you need to talk about these disparities with more specificity and nuance. There are categories of concerning student behavior with corresponding disciplinary actions that aligns with the category.

Parents, black, white or otherwise, DO NOT want leniency on suspensions for those student behaviors that are MOST concerning, which are tier 3 and above.

I'm not going to argue with someone that makes broad statements with racist undertones, demands I provide evidence to support my position but refuses to read the evidence I have already posted. Also, not sure if you noticed what I posted above ("The problem is schools don't want/know how to address that so they've decided to just stop disciplining kids at all which ends up being even worse for BIPOC kids.") So although I think you're kind of ignorant, I do think we actually agree that schools should manage and discipline student behaviors.

What on earth was racist about anything I said? And what are we arguing about?

I merely said we can't talk about student discipline in the broad sense. We have to talk about student discipline and any disparities by tier, as defined by MCPS's own student code of conduct. I then AGREED that racial disparities in lower-level suspensions or disciplinary actions (tier 1 and 2) MIGHT be driven by racial discrimination. So I agreed WITH YOU.

But I'm not convinced of racial discrimination for disciplinary actions in the tier 3 and above categories. Again, if you have data or information that shows otherwise, great. I'd love to see it. And if that data affirms black kids are being suspended for things white kids aren't, then we should be advocating for suspensions or discipline to go up, not down, and to specifically implement more disciplinary actions against white kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not sped it kids coming from violent homes. There are plenty of parents out there who beat their kids

It is more kids coming from super permissive homes where there is no discipline just screens whenever the student demands it, no structure, and the kid who is often smart and strong willed soon realizes he or she can do whatever they want and the parent won't intervene. So the parent walks on eggshells or gives in to all the kid's demands because they don't want to see the kid tantrum. So the kid comes to school and realizes no one can touch them or do anything to them. The teacher tells the parent the student is misbehaving and there are NO consequences at home. There are also no rewards that are effective because the student gets whatever they want at home.

Teacher here. This is more likely the case. I have a student who is nearly as tall as I am and she's 6 yrs old. The only way her mom can get her to school (according to her mom) is to let her walk with her (the student's) phone. When mom gets her to the front door, she walks inside with her until she lines up with her class and then her mom tries to quickly pull the phone away and hightail it out of there. Needless to say, it's like WW3 every morning. My colleague and I end up blocking the door with our bodies to prevent her from running out the door after her mom. We've had meetings about this (and her other awful behaviors) but the real problem is mom's inability to say no. This child has tantrums like a 2 yr old multiple times per day. They last for at least 15 minutes and the entire class comes to a halt because she is screaming the entire time. This child doesn't have special needs. Her mother just doesn't want to parent so all of us get to deal with that. There are 3-4 of these kids in every grade.

I just spent 7 weeks working in an out of school time program at the YMCA in a Title I schools community.

Hands down, the kids with diagnoses or who were SPED were LESS disruptive and problematic than the kids who simply are not being parented, period.

These are average to above average intellect kids who are running the show in our classrooms and other youth development programs because the new social justice paradigm (I am, by the way, uber liberal and was an antiracist before the term was in any kind of widespread use) is that you don't discipline these kids or kick them out of the program as your progressive accountability structure allows - you just keep abiding and trying to give them positive incentives to conform their behavior to norms.

And in the meantime the vast majority of kids who make good choices are getting bullied and traumatized by witnesses bullying and assaults both physical and verbal on a regular basis - on them, their peers and yes, on their adult instructors.

For some percentage of kids, seeing those things on a regular basis normalizes that kind of behavior and violence and it invites some kids to engage in behaviors they never otherwise would have tried.

It's a disaster, truly. I was planning to go into public school teaching through a program that requires a 2 year commitment to a Title I school district and I've decided - NO THANKS.

It would be different if there was any accountability structure left for kids who make bad choices, but there really isn't. The school district where I was going to teach is one among many nationwide that have been sued for having an in school and out of school suspension program and for using it as designed. While investigation by the federal OCV found there was no intent to racial bias in using the progressive accountability structure, the majority of kids who ended up being in and out of school suspended were BIPOC and so it was no longer okay to use it because apparently we are just going to abide the behavior and that's going to motivate the kids to change and conform to social norms.

Is anyone really surprised that violence is more and more normative in our society?

What really makes me sad is that this is just a recycling of the soft bigotry of low expectations. These social justice warriors in our schools and other youth development program leadership structures think they a striking a blow for antiracism, but to me it looks like they are enabling and encouraging kids into the juvenile justice system and eventually likely the adult justice system, just in a different fashion than the previous school to prison pipeline.

And yes, plenty of the disruptive kids are white, too. We are failing all these kids whose parents already did. We'll pay the price down the road as we always have done.

You know it's going to be good anytime someone starts a rant assuring others that they're not a racist. And this one did not disappoint.

Let me guess, you have black friends, too?

I have spent my entire career working in BIPOC communities, and yes, many if not most of my friends are BIPOC.

It's so easy to jump to calling people racist if they want any accountability for the poor behavior choices of kids or adults and that happens to include in Title I communities a fair number of BIPOC kids.

Again, I've been uber liberal my whole life. My friends used to call me a thug hugger, and it was many of my BIPOC friends who most deeply criticized my idealism and progressive ideals.

Just for reference, I've spent my career as an educator, domestic violence advocate, CASA, legal aid attorney, public defender, prosecutor, solo law practice attorney who took poor clients and charged on a sliding scale like a nonprofit firm (I was definitely nonprofit, lol), and most recently working with a very mixed race population of elder and disabled healthcare clients, many on hospice status.

I lived and worked on a reservation out West, I lived and worked on the AZ/Mexico border, attended law school and did criminal clinic in DC with clients living mostly in SE and Anacostia, currently live in a very diverse area and work and socialize with a diverse community.

But yeah, I'm a racist. You caught me out. I must be racist if my desire to see the majority of kids of all colors succeed in our schools might mean that a small percentage of kids of color get suspended or placed in alternative school settings. I'm a big bad racist for wanting that.

I’m black and I’m aligned with everything you said. The people who justify the absence of structure and consequences for black and brown kids are the real racists. Discipline is a vital and essential part of raising a healthy, productive child. Their low expectations are racist. I refuse to believe that any bad behavior black and brown kids might exhibit must be tolerated in the name of antiracism. This is warped thinking at best and intentional poisonous programming at worst.

DP. I think it's horrible that this is the approach taken by schools in the name of anti racism. There is clear evidence that black and brown kids are disciplined differently than white kids though. The problem is schools don't want/know how to address that so they've decided to just stop disciplining kids at all which ends up being even worse for BIPOC kids.

In some communities, there is a disproportionate number of BIPOC kids in poverty and/or living in single-parent households. It is likely there would be disproportionate discipline outcomes for BIPOC kids as those two factors are known contributors to poor behavior. I don't think people really want to have that conversation anymore. It's easier to blame the schools and teachers.

I agree with you that there are structural issues that are likely driving some real differences in behavior itself, but:
1. Those structural issues are the direct result of explicitly or implicitly racist government policies or government-supported policies; and
2. There is very clear research showing that racial bias by teachers and other school staff leads to differences in discipline for the same behaviors.

One thing you will notice in the MCPS data is that Black students in particular are disciplined a LOT, much more so than Hispanic students. The difference is extremely stark, yet poverty is actually higher among Hispanic students. Some people may choose to explain this due to cultural differences, and maybe that plays a role, but to deny that racial bias might play a significant role in these disparities, given the local data and the large body of research on this topic, just doesn't pass the smell test.

https://www.npscoalition.org/post/racially-disproportionate-discipline-in-early-childhood-educational-settings
"There is no evidence that Black children display greater or more severe misbehavior.[i],[ii] Disproportionate preschool suspensions are the result of adult behaviors.[iii],[iv] Research suggests Black children are punished more severely than their peers for the same or similar behaviors and that they are subject to increased scrutiny starting as early as preschool. Research further suggests that Black children are often the subjects of teachers’ implicit racial bias, with adults perceiving Black children as older than they are, less innocent than their peers, more culpable and aggressive, and more deserving of harsher punishment than white children.[v],[vi] These disparities are often attributable to the lack of teacher training and ongoing supports."

We have to be careful when we talk about the disproportionality of student discipline by race.

The concerning behavior is physical assault, violence, weapons, drugs, etc. which I believe in disciplinary issues that are category 3 and above. Is there evidence that white kids are physically assaulting their peers and teachers and not being disciplined at the same rate as black and Hispanic kids? If so, bring forth the evidence. And if that is the case, why isn't the call to suspend and discipline MORE white kids at the same rate as black and Hispanic kids, instead of saying we should seek to decrease suspensions overall?

Do I believe there's discrimination for those lower-level suspensions due to the subjectively defined category 1 of "disrespect"? Absolutely. But you need to talk about these disparities with more specificity and nuance. There are categories of concerning student behavior with corresponding disciplinary actions that aligns with the category.

Parents, black, white or otherwise, DO NOT want leniency on suspensions for those student behaviors that are MOST concerning, which are tier 3 and above.

I'm not going to argue with someone that makes broad statements with racist undertones, demands I provide evidence to support my position but refuses to read the evidence I have already posted. Also, not sure if you noticed what I posted above ("The problem is schools don't want/know how to address that so they've decided to just stop disciplining kids at all which ends up being even worse for BIPOC kids.") So although I think you're kind of ignorant, I do think we actually agree that schools should manage and discipline student behaviors.

What on earth was racist about anything I said? And what are we arguing about?

I merely said we can't talk about student discipline in the broad sense. We have to talk about student discipline and any disparities by tier, as defined by MCPS's own student code of conduct. I then AGREED that racial disparities in lower-level suspensions or disciplinary actions (tier 1 and 2) MIGHT be driven by racial discrimination. So I agreed WITH YOU.

But I'm not convinced of racial discrimination for disciplinary actions in the tier 3 and above categories. Again, if you have data or information that shows otherwise, great. I'd love to see it. And if that data affirms black kids are being suspended for things white kids aren't, then we should be advocating for suspensions or discipline to go up, not down, and to specifically implement more disciplinary actions against white kids.

Do you think that I work for you? Google is your friend. You are saying Black kids are more violent than White, Hispanic and Asian kids, so back it up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not sped it kids coming from violent homes. There are plenty of parents out there who beat their kids

It is more kids coming from super permissive homes where there is no discipline just screens whenever the student demands it, no structure, and the kid who is often smart and strong willed soon realizes he or she can do whatever they want and the parent won't intervene. So the parent walks on eggshells or gives in to all the kid's demands because they don't want to see the kid tantrum. So the kid comes to school and realizes no one can touch them or do anything to them. The teacher tells the parent the student is misbehaving and there are NO consequences at home. There are also no rewards that are effective because the student gets whatever they want at home.

Teacher here. This is more likely the case. I have a student who is nearly as tall as I am and she's 6 yrs old. The only way her mom can get her to school (according to her mom) is to let her walk with her (the student's) phone. When mom gets her to the front door, she walks inside with her until she lines up with her class and then her mom tries to quickly pull the phone away and hightail it out of there. Needless to say, it's like WW3 every morning. My colleague and I end up blocking the door with our bodies to prevent her from running out the door after her mom. We've had meetings about this (and her other awful behaviors) but the real problem is mom's inability to say no. This child has tantrums like a 2 yr old multiple times per day. They last for at least 15 minutes and the entire class comes to a halt because she is screaming the entire time. This child doesn't have special needs. Her mother just doesn't want to parent so all of us get to deal with that. There are 3-4 of these kids in every grade.

I just spent 7 weeks working in an out of school time program at the YMCA in a Title I schools community.

Hands down, the kids with diagnoses or who were SPED were LESS disruptive and problematic than the kids who simply are not being parented, period.

These are average to above average intellect kids who are running the show in our classrooms and other youth development programs because the new social justice paradigm (I am, by the way, uber liberal and was an antiracist before the term was in any kind of widespread use) is that you don't discipline these kids or kick them out of the program as your progressive accountability structure allows - you just keep abiding and trying to give them positive incentives to conform their behavior to norms.

And in the meantime the vast majority of kids who make good choices are getting bullied and traumatized by witnesses bullying and assaults both physical and verbal on a regular basis - on them, their peers and yes, on their adult instructors.

For some percentage of kids, seeing those things on a regular basis normalizes that kind of behavior and violence and it invites some kids to engage in behaviors they never otherwise would have tried.

It's a disaster, truly. I was planning to go into public school teaching through a program that requires a 2 year commitment to a Title I school district and I've decided - NO THANKS.

It would be different if there was any accountability structure left for kids who make bad choices, but there really isn't. The school district where I was going to teach is one among many nationwide that have been sued for having an in school and out of school suspension program and for using it as designed. While investigation by the federal OCV found there was no intent to racial bias in using the progressive accountability structure, the majority of kids who ended up being in and out of school suspended were BIPOC and so it was no longer okay to use it because apparently we are just going to abide the behavior and that's going to motivate the kids to change and conform to social norms.

Is anyone really surprised that violence is more and more normative in our society?

What really makes me sad is that this is just a recycling of the soft bigotry of low expectations. These social justice warriors in our schools and other youth development program leadership structures think they a striking a blow for antiracism, but to me it looks like they are enabling and encouraging kids into the juvenile justice system and eventually likely the adult justice system, just in a different fashion than the previous school to prison pipeline.

And yes, plenty of the disruptive kids are white, too. We are failing all these kids whose parents already did. We'll pay the price down the road as we always have done.

You know it's going to be good anytime someone starts a rant assuring others that they're not a racist. And this one did not disappoint.

Let me guess, you have black friends, too?

I have spent my entire career working in BIPOC communities, and yes, many if not most of my friends are BIPOC.

It's so easy to jump to calling people racist if they want any accountability for the poor behavior choices of kids or adults and that happens to include in Title I communities a fair number of BIPOC kids.

Again, I've been uber liberal my whole life. My friends used to call me a thug hugger, and it was many of my BIPOC friends who most deeply criticized my idealism and progressive ideals.

Just for reference, I've spent my career as an educator, domestic violence advocate, CASA, legal aid attorney, public defender, prosecutor, solo law practice attorney who took poor clients and charged on a sliding scale like a nonprofit firm (I was definitely nonprofit, lol), and most recently working with a very mixed race population of elder and disabled healthcare clients, many on hospice status.

I lived and worked on a reservation out West, I lived and worked on the AZ/Mexico border, attended law school and did criminal clinic in DC with clients living mostly in SE and Anacostia, currently live in a very diverse area and work and socialize with a diverse community.

But yeah, I'm a racist. You caught me out. I must be racist if my desire to see the majority of kids of all colors succeed in our schools might mean that a small percentage of kids of color get suspended or placed in alternative school settings. I'm a big bad racist for wanting that.

I’m black and I’m aligned with everything you said. The people who justify the absence of structure and consequences for black and brown kids are the real racists. Discipline is a vital and essential part of raising a healthy, productive child. Their low expectations are racist. I refuse to believe that any bad behavior black and brown kids might exhibit must be tolerated in the name of antiracism. This is warped thinking at best and intentional poisonous programming at worst.

DP. I think it's horrible that this is the approach taken by schools in the name of anti racism. There is clear evidence that black and brown kids are disciplined differently than white kids though. The problem is schools don't want/know how to address that so they've decided to just stop disciplining kids at all which ends up being even worse for BIPOC kids.

In some communities, there is a disproportionate number of BIPOC kids in poverty and/or living in single-parent households. It is likely there would be disproportionate discipline outcomes for BIPOC kids as those two factors are known contributors to poor behavior. I don't think people really want to have that conversation anymore. It's easier to blame the schools and teachers.

I agree with you that there are structural issues that are likely driving some real differences in behavior itself, but:
1. Those structural issues are the direct result of explicitly or implicitly racist government policies or government-supported policies; and
2. There is very clear research showing that racial bias by teachers and other school staff leads to differences in discipline for the same behaviors.

One thing you will notice in the MCPS data is that Black students in particular are disciplined a LOT, much more so than Hispanic students. The difference is extremely stark, yet poverty is actually higher among Hispanic students. Some people may choose to explain this due to cultural differences, and maybe that plays a role, but to deny that racial bias might play a significant role in these disparities, given the local data and the large body of research on this topic, just doesn't pass the smell test.

https://www.npscoalition.org/post/racially-disproportionate-discipline-in-early-childhood-educational-settings
"There is no evidence that Black children display greater or more severe misbehavior.[i],[ii] Disproportionate preschool suspensions are the result of adult behaviors.[iii],[iv] Research suggests Black children are punished more severely than their peers for the same or similar behaviors and that they are subject to increased scrutiny starting as early as preschool. Research further suggests that Black children are often the subjects of teachers’ implicit racial bias, with adults perceiving Black children as older than they are, less innocent than their peers, more culpable and aggressive, and more deserving of harsher punishment than white children.[v],[vi] These disparities are often attributable to the lack of teacher training and ongoing supports."

We have to be careful when we talk about the disproportionality of student discipline by race.

The concerning behavior is physical assault, violence, weapons, drugs, etc. which I believe in disciplinary issues that are category 3 and above. Is there evidence that white kids are physically assaulting their peers and teachers and not being disciplined at the same rate as black and Hispanic kids? If so, bring forth the evidence. And if that is the case, why isn't the call to suspend and discipline MORE white kids at the same rate as black and Hispanic kids, instead of saying we should seek to decrease suspensions overall?

Do I believe there's discrimination for those lower-level suspensions due to the subjectively defined category 1 of "disrespect"? Absolutely. But you need to talk about these disparities with more specificity and nuance. There are categories of concerning student behavior with corresponding disciplinary actions that aligns with the category.

Parents, black, white or otherwise, DO NOT want leniency on suspensions for those student behaviors that are MOST concerning, which are tier 3 and above.

I'm not going to argue with someone that makes broad statements with racist undertones, demands I provide evidence to support my position but refuses to read the evidence I have already posted. Also, not sure if you noticed what I posted above ("The problem is schools don't want/know how to address that so they've decided to just stop disciplining kids at all which ends up being even worse for BIPOC kids.") So although I think you're kind of ignorant, I do think we actually agree that schools should manage and discipline student behaviors.

What on earth was racist about anything I said? And what are we arguing about?

I merely said we can't talk about student discipline in the broad sense. We have to talk about student discipline and any disparities by tier, as defined by MCPS's own student code of conduct. I then AGREED that racial disparities in lower-level suspensions or disciplinary actions (tier 1 and 2) MIGHT be driven by racial discrimination. So I agreed WITH YOU.

But I'm not convinced of racial discrimination for disciplinary actions in the tier 3 and above categories. Again, if you have data or information that shows otherwise, great. I'd love to see it. And if that data affirms black kids are being suspended for things white kids aren't, then we should be advocating for suspensions or discipline to go up, not down, and to specifically implement more disciplinary actions against white kids.

Do you think that I work for you? Google is your friend. You are saying Black kids are more violent than White, Hispanic and Asian kids, so back it up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not sped it kids coming from violent homes. There are plenty of parents out there who beat their kids

It is more kids coming from super permissive homes where there is no discipline just screens whenever the student demands it, no structure, and the kid who is often smart and strong willed soon realizes he or she can do whatever they want and the parent won't intervene. So the parent walks on eggshells or gives in to all the kid's demands because they don't want to see the kid tantrum. So the kid comes to school and realizes no one can touch them or do anything to them. The teacher tells the parent the student is misbehaving and there are NO consequences at home. There are also no rewards that are effective because the student gets whatever they want at home.

Teacher here. This is more likely the case. I have a student who is nearly as tall as I am and she's 6 yrs old. The only way her mom can get her to school (according to her mom) is to let her walk with her (the student's) phone. When mom gets her to the front door, she walks inside with her until she lines up with her class and then her mom tries to quickly pull the phone away and hightail it out of there. Needless to say, it's like WW3 every morning. My colleague and I end up blocking the door with our bodies to prevent her from running out the door after her mom. We've had meetings about this (and her other awful behaviors) but the real problem is mom's inability to say no. This child has tantrums like a 2 yr old multiple times per day. They last for at least 15 minutes and the entire class comes to a halt because she is screaming the entire time. This child doesn't have special needs. Her mother just doesn't want to parent so all of us get to deal with that. There are 3-4 of these kids in every grade.

I just spent 7 weeks working in an out of school time program at the YMCA in a Title I schools community.

Hands down, the kids with diagnoses or who were SPED were LESS disruptive and problematic than the kids who simply are not being parented, period.

These are average to above average intellect kids who are running the show in our classrooms and other youth development programs because the new social justice paradigm (I am, by the way, uber liberal and was an antiracist before the term was in any kind of widespread use) is that you don't discipline these kids or kick them out of the program as your progressive accountability structure allows - you just keep abiding and trying to give them positive incentives to conform their behavior to norms.

And in the meantime the vast majority of kids who make good choices are getting bullied and traumatized by witnesses bullying and assaults both physical and verbal on a regular basis - on them, their peers and yes, on their adult instructors.

For some percentage of kids, seeing those things on a regular basis normalizes that kind of behavior and violence and it invites some kids to engage in behaviors they never otherwise would have tried.

It's a disaster, truly. I was planning to go into public school teaching through a program that requires a 2 year commitment to a Title I school district and I've decided - NO THANKS.

It would be different if there was any accountability structure left for kids who make bad choices, but there really isn't. The school district where I was going to teach is one among many nationwide that have been sued for having an in school and out of school suspension program and for using it as designed. While investigation by the federal OCV found there was no intent to racial bias in using the progressive accountability structure, the majority of kids who ended up being in and out of school suspended were BIPOC and so it was no longer okay to use it because apparently we are just going to abide the behavior and that's going to motivate the kids to change and conform to social norms.

Is anyone really surprised that violence is more and more normative in our society?

What really makes me sad is that this is just a recycling of the soft bigotry of low expectations. These social justice warriors in our schools and other youth development program leadership structures think they a striking a blow for antiracism, but to me it looks like they are enabling and encouraging kids into the juvenile justice system and eventually likely the adult justice system, just in a different fashion than the previous school to prison pipeline.

And yes, plenty of the disruptive kids are white, too. We are failing all these kids whose parents already did. We'll pay the price down the road as we always have done.

You know it's going to be good anytime someone starts a rant assuring others that they're not a racist. And this one did not disappoint.

Let me guess, you have black friends, too?

I have spent my entire career working in BIPOC communities, and yes, many if not most of my friends are BIPOC.

It's so easy to jump to calling people racist if they want any accountability for the poor behavior choices of kids or adults and that happens to include in Title I communities a fair number of BIPOC kids.

Again, I've been uber liberal my whole life. My friends used to call me a thug hugger, and it was many of my BIPOC friends who most deeply criticized my idealism and progressive ideals.

Just for reference, I've spent my career as an educator, domestic violence advocate, CASA, legal aid attorney, public defender, prosecutor, solo law practice attorney who took poor clients and charged on a sliding scale like a nonprofit firm (I was definitely nonprofit, lol), and most recently working with a very mixed race population of elder and disabled healthcare clients, many on hospice status.

I lived and worked on a reservation out West, I lived and worked on the AZ/Mexico border, attended law school and did criminal clinic in DC with clients living mostly in SE and Anacostia, currently live in a very diverse area and work and socialize with a diverse community.

But yeah, I'm a racist. You caught me out. I must be racist if my desire to see the majority of kids of all colors succeed in our schools might mean that a small percentage of kids of color get suspended or placed in alternative school settings. I'm a big bad racist for wanting that.

I’m black and I’m aligned with everything you said. The people who justify the absence of structure and consequences for black and brown kids are the real racists. Discipline is a vital and essential part of raising a healthy, productive child. Their low expectations are racist. I refuse to believe that any bad behavior black and brown kids might exhibit must be tolerated in the name of antiracism. This is warped thinking at best and intentional poisonous programming at worst.

DP. I think it's horrible that this is the approach taken by schools in the name of anti racism. There is clear evidence that black and brown kids are disciplined differently than white kids though. The problem is schools don't want/know how to address that so they've decided to just stop disciplining kids at all which ends up being even worse for BIPOC kids.

In some communities, there is a disproportionate number of BIPOC kids in poverty and/or living in single-parent households. It is likely there would be disproportionate discipline outcomes for BIPOC kids as those two factors are known contributors to poor behavior. I don't think people really want to have that conversation anymore. It's easier to blame the schools and teachers.

I agree with you that there are structural issues that are likely driving some real differences in behavior itself, but:
1. Those structural issues are the direct result of explicitly or implicitly racist government policies or government-supported policies; and
2. There is very clear research showing that racial bias by teachers and other school staff leads to differences in discipline for the same behaviors.

One thing you will notice in the MCPS data is that Black students in particular are disciplined a LOT, much more so than Hispanic students. The difference is extremely stark, yet poverty is actually higher among Hispanic students. Some people may choose to explain this due to cultural differences, and maybe that plays a role, but to deny that racial bias might play a significant role in these disparities, given the local data and the large body of research on this topic, just doesn't pass the smell test.

https://www.npscoalition.org/post/racially-disproportionate-discipline-in-early-childhood-educational-settings
"There is no evidence that Black children display greater or more severe misbehavior.[i],[ii] Disproportionate preschool suspensions are the result of adult behaviors.[iii],[iv] Research suggests Black children are punished more severely than their peers for the same or similar behaviors and that they are subject to increased scrutiny starting as early as preschool. Research further suggests that Black children are often the subjects of teachers’ implicit racial bias, with adults perceiving Black children as older than they are, less innocent than their peers, more culpable and aggressive, and more deserving of harsher punishment than white children.[v],[vi] These disparities are often attributable to the lack of teacher training and ongoing supports."

We have to be careful when we talk about the disproportionality of student discipline by race.

The concerning behavior is physical assault, violence, weapons, drugs, etc. which I believe in disciplinary issues that are category 3 and above. Is there evidence that white kids are physically assaulting their peers and teachers and not being disciplined at the same rate as black and Hispanic kids? If so, bring forth the evidence. And if that is the case, why isn't the call to suspend and discipline MORE white kids at the same rate as black and Hispanic kids, instead of saying we should seek to decrease suspensions overall?

Do I believe there's discrimination for those lower-level suspensions due to the subjectively defined category 1 of "disrespect"? Absolutely. But you need to talk about these disparities with more specificity and nuance. There are categories of concerning student behavior with corresponding disciplinary actions that aligns with the category.

Parents, black, white or otherwise, DO NOT want leniency on suspensions for those student behaviors that are MOST concerning, which are tier 3 and above.

I'm not going to argue with someone that makes broad statements with racist undertones, demands I provide evidence to support my position but refuses to read the evidence I have already posted. Also, not sure if you noticed what I posted above ("The problem is schools don't want/know how to address that so they've decided to just stop disciplining kids at all which ends up being even worse for BIPOC kids.") So although I think you're kind of ignorant, I do think we actually agree that schools should manage and discipline student behaviors.

What on earth was racist about anything I said? And what are we arguing about?

I merely said we can't talk about student discipline in the broad sense. We have to talk about student discipline and any disparities by tier, as defined by MCPS's own student code of conduct. I then AGREED that racial disparities in lower-level suspensions or disciplinary actions (tier 1 and 2) MIGHT be driven by racial discrimination. So I agreed WITH YOU.

But I'm not convinced of racial discrimination for disciplinary actions in the tier 3 and above categories. Again, if you have data or information that shows otherwise, great. I'd love to see it. And if that data affirms black kids are being suspended for things white kids aren't, then we should be advocating for suspensions or discipline to go up, not down, and to specifically implement more disciplinary actions against white kids.

Do you think that I work for you? Google is your friend. You are saying Black kids are more violent than White, Hispanic and Asian kids, so back it up.

Byeeee

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach in a Title 1 school and my students are mostly well behaved. Most are not white and come from poverty mostly due to single parenthood. Poor behavior comes from parents not teaching their kids how to behave, absent of special needs. It doesn’t come from poverty and from being raised by a single parent.

I’m a single parent of a college DS. He was raised by me when his father left and moved across the country. I was also raised in a single parent household. My siblings and I were raised by our mother to be respectful and responsible people. People need to stop blaming things on factors that probably will never change (poverty, single parenthood) and take personal responsibility for their kids.

I’m the YMCA group leader and just want to endorse this perspective.

Most of the kids in the program I worked in - kids of all colors - were from low income homes and often single parent as well. 80% of the kids were on vouchers. Most of them were reasonably well behaved for grade level.

I grew up in poverty at times and slightly more abundance at others. There was nothing about our bank account or the fact that we often didn’t have much to eat that kept us from learning manners and respect for authority figures in school settings. Don’t indict poor people as universally bad parents because that is far from the truth.


Meanwhile, the parents of the black honor roll student who is on video bashing a white student’s head several times into the pavement until she seized and has now been in coma for over a week are decrying the charges against their daughter, pointing out that she is an honor roll student and that she was defending herself against bullying.

As though whatever verbal disrespect the two of them exchanged before the potentially lethal physical assault on a girl half her weight could have ever justified that gruesomely violent response.

That is a failure of parenting, full stop. It’s a failure to inculcate reasonable morals while raising your child.

I agree with this but would also point out something.
I don’t condone what happened in any way, but bullying is a real problem that also has harmful affects and continues to lead to the death of people. Be it suicide, mass shootings, fights, etc. It needs to be taken seriously and addressed. But often it is not because kids will be kids or everyone needs to learn how to deal with one another or get thicker skin, etc. Again I’m not condoning what happened here and I don’t know all the details of what was happening before, but most people don’t wake up and choose violence. Something instigates or triggers that and all too often those instigators and triggers have been being ignored, until something tragic happens.

[Anonymous]

Teachers’ responses to students have resulted in racial disparities, with ethnic and racial minority students receiving behavioral sanctions at higher rates (Skiba, Michael, Nardo & Peterson, 2002). Racial disparities persist even after controlling for socioeconomic class, neighborhood features, and severity of the offense (Wallace, Goodkind, Wallace, & Bachman, 2008). Racial disparities are most pronounced in referrals requiring subjective interpretation of student behavior, such as deviance and disrespect, but disparities disappear for the more serious behavioral disruptions that are detected more objectively, such as smoking or physical altercations (APA Zero Tolerance Task Force, 2008; Gregory & Weinstein, 2008; KewelRamani, Gilbertson, Fox & Provasnki, 2007, Skiba et al., 2002). Racial disparities persist when teachers are able to exercise their discretion in making referrals and when school policies (e.g., Zero Tolerance) require teachers to refer automatically for specific behavioral disruptions (see APA Task Force, 2008). Disciplinary referrals have been shown to be devastating to the educational achievement of targeted students (APA Zero Tolerance Task Force, 2008). Consequently, racial disparities in disciplinary practices play a critical role in the racial disparities in educational achievement, particularly for African American students (Gregory & Weinstein, 2008).

Recent research demonstrates that individual variation is critical to understanding and reducing the disciplinary gap. Teachers frustrated by a student for whom they make repeated referrals perceive a problem student. What these teachers may not realize is that most of these students (e.g., 86% in Gregory & Weinstein, 2008) are not referred in all of their classrooms, suggesting that many of these referrals are specific to particular teachers’ interactions. Gregory and Weinstein found more between classroom variability than within student variability, suggesting that student discipline reflects student-classroom interactions. Situations that teachers attribute problem students should be viewed as problems in the student-teacher relationship (Luiselli, Putnam, Handler & Feinberg, 2005; Pane, 2010). Students are more defiant and act out more often in classrooms in which the teachers are perceived by the target student (and other students) as being uncaring and having low achievement expectations, but these same students cooperate with other teachers whom they perceived as caring and as having high expectations (Gregory & Weinstein, 2008).

Consequently, one explanation for the racial disparities in discipline appears to be differential selection (Piquero, 2008; Gregory et al., 2010) in which ethnic and racial minority youth are more likely to be selected as violating school or community policies even when rates and severity of rule violations are not different than those of Whites. In support of the differential selection hypothesis is that racial disparities in behavioral referrals, school suspensions and expulsions reflect teachers differentially selecting to punish ethnic and racial minority youth for infractions associated with more subjective criteria, such as defiance to challenges to teachers’ authority, rather than behavior that is more objectively evaluated, such as physical fights and possession of weapon (Gregory & Weinstein, 2008; Skiba et al, 2008; Vavrus & Cole, 2002). Gregory et al. attributed teachers’ discriminatory use of discipline practices to racial bias, cultural mismatch, and stereotypes of academic behavior of minority youth. The cultural mismatch hypothesis suggests a mismatch between student and teacher cultural expectations for behavior in which behavior that may be considered normative by students is interpreted as hostile, threatening, and defiant by teachers. This differential selection of ethnic and racial minority boys, along with disparities in reading, set the stage for higher rates of educational underachievement for boys of color.

https://www.apa.org/ed/resources/racial-disparities.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Teachers’ responses to students have resulted in racial disparities, with ethnic and racial minority students receiving behavioral sanctions at higher rates (Skiba, Michael, Nardo & Peterson, 2002). Racial disparities persist even after controlling for socioeconomic class, neighborhood features, and severity of the offense (Wallace, Goodkind, Wallace, & Bachman, 2008). Racial disparities are most pronounced in referrals requiring subjective interpretation of student behavior, such as deviance and disrespect, but disparities disappear for the more serious behavioral disruptions that are detected more objectively, such as smoking or physical altercations (APA Zero Tolerance Task Force, 2008; Gregory & Weinstein, 2008; KewelRamani, Gilbertson, Fox & Provasnki, 2007, Skiba et al., 2002). Racial disparities persist when teachers are able to exercise their discretion in making referrals and when school policies (e.g., Zero Tolerance) require teachers to refer automatically for specific behavioral disruptions (see APA Task Force, 2008). Disciplinary referrals have been shown to be devastating to the educational achievement of targeted students (APA Zero Tolerance Task Force, 2008). Consequently, racial disparities in disciplinary practices play a critical role in the racial disparities in educational achievement, particularly for African American students (Gregory & Weinstein, 2008).

Recent research demonstrates that individual variation is critical to understanding and reducing the disciplinary gap. Teachers frustrated by a student for whom they make repeated referrals perceive a problem student. What these teachers may not realize is that most of these students (e.g., 86% in Gregory & Weinstein, 2008) are not referred in all of their classrooms, suggesting that many of these referrals are specific to particular teachers’ interactions. Gregory and Weinstein found more between classroom variability than within student variability, suggesting that student discipline reflects student-classroom interactions. Situations that teachers attribute problem students should be viewed as problems in the student-teacher relationship (Luiselli, Putnam, Handler & Feinberg, 2005; Pane, 2010). Students are more defiant and act out more often in classrooms in which the teachers are perceived by the target student (and other students) as being uncaring and having low achievement expectations, but these same students cooperate with other teachers whom they perceived as caring and as having high expectations (Gregory & Weinstein, 2008).

Consequently, one explanation for the racial disparities in discipline appears to be differential selection (Piquero, 2008; Gregory et al., 2010) in which ethnic and racial minority youth are more likely to be selected as violating school or community policies even when rates and severity of rule violations are not different than those of Whites. In support of the differential selection hypothesis is that racial disparities in behavioral referrals, school suspensions and expulsions reflect teachers differentially selecting to punish ethnic and racial minority youth for infractions associated with more subjective criteria, such as defiance to challenges to teachers’ authority, rather than behavior that is more objectively evaluated, such as physical fights and possession of weapon (Gregory & Weinstein, 2008; Skiba et al, 2008; Vavrus & Cole, 2002). Gregory et al. attributed teachers’ discriminatory use of discipline practices to racial bias, cultural mismatch, and stereotypes of academic behavior of minority youth. The cultural mismatch hypothesis suggests a mismatch between student and teacher cultural expectations for behavior in which behavior that may be considered normative by students is interpreted as hostile, threatening, and defiant by teachers. This differential selection of ethnic and racial minority boys, along with disparities in reading, set the stage for higher rates of educational underachievement for boys of color.

https://www.apa.org/ed/resources/racial-disparities.pdf

Thank you. So this confirms what I theorized to be true:

For serious-level incident student discipline, racial discrimination is not a meaningful factor. For lower-level, it is. This is what I said and what evidence backs up. So why don't we talk about the issue in this manner instead of talking ALL student behavior/discipline issues as if they are the same? They aren't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Teachers’ responses to students have resulted in racial disparities, with ethnic and racial minority students receiving behavioral sanctions at higher rates (Skiba, Michael, Nardo & Peterson, 2002). Racial disparities persist even after controlling for socioeconomic class, neighborhood features, and severity of the offense (Wallace, Goodkind, Wallace, & Bachman, 2008). Racial disparities are most pronounced in referrals requiring subjective interpretation of student behavior, such as deviance and disrespect, but disparities disappear for the more serious behavioral disruptions that are detected more objectively, such as smoking or physical altercations (APA Zero Tolerance Task Force, 2008; Gregory & Weinstein, 2008; KewelRamani, Gilbertson, Fox & Provasnki, 2007, Skiba et al., 2002). Racial disparities persist when teachers are able to exercise their discretion in making referrals and when school policies (e.g., Zero Tolerance) require teachers to refer automatically for specific behavioral disruptions (see APA Task Force, 2008). Disciplinary referrals have been shown to be devastating to the educational achievement of targeted students (APA Zero Tolerance Task Force, 2008). Consequently, racial disparities in disciplinary practices play a critical role in the racial disparities in educational achievement, particularly for African American students (Gregory & Weinstein, 2008).

Recent research demonstrates that individual variation is critical to understanding and reducing the disciplinary gap. Teachers frustrated by a student for whom they make repeated referrals perceive a problem student. What these teachers may not realize is that most of these students (e.g., 86% in Gregory & Weinstein, 2008) are not referred in all of their classrooms, suggesting that many of these referrals are specific to particular teachers’ interactions. Gregory and Weinstein found more between classroom variability than within student variability, suggesting that student discipline reflects student-classroom interactions. Situations that teachers attribute problem students should be viewed as problems in the student-teacher relationship (Luiselli, Putnam, Handler & Feinberg, 2005; Pane, 2010). Students are more defiant and act out more often in classrooms in which the teachers are perceived by the target student (and other students) as being uncaring and having low achievement expectations, but these same students cooperate with other teachers whom they perceived as caring and as having high expectations (Gregory & Weinstein, 2008).

Consequently, one explanation for the racial disparities in discipline appears to be differential selection (Piquero, 2008; Gregory et al., 2010) in which ethnic and racial minority youth are more likely to be selected as violating school or community policies even when rates and severity of rule violations are not different than those of Whites. In support of the differential selection hypothesis is that racial disparities in behavioral referrals, school suspensions and expulsions reflect teachers differentially selecting to punish ethnic and racial minority youth for infractions associated with more subjective criteria, such as defiance to challenges to teachers’ authority, rather than behavior that is more objectively evaluated, such as physical fights and possession of weapon (Gregory & Weinstein, 2008; Skiba et al, 2008; Vavrus & Cole, 2002). Gregory et al. attributed teachers’ discriminatory use of discipline practices to racial bias, cultural mismatch, and stereotypes of academic behavior of minority youth. The cultural mismatch hypothesis suggests a mismatch between student and teacher cultural expectations for behavior in which behavior that may be considered normative by students is interpreted as hostile, threatening, and defiant by teachers. This differential selection of ethnic and racial minority boys, along with disparities in reading, set the stage for higher rates of educational underachievement for boys of color.

https://www.apa.org/ed/resources/racial-disparities.pdf

Thank you. So this confirms what I theorized to be true:

For serious-level incident student discipline, racial discrimination is not a meaningful factor. For lower-level, it is. This is what I said and what evidence backs up. So why don't we talk about the issue in this manner instead of talking ALL student behavior/discipline issues as if they are the same? They aren't.

Has anybody on this thread said that we shouldn't discipline serious offenses or any offenses? I feel like you're arguing with someone who isn't here.

[Anonymous]

Where we are now has to be seen in the context of history. In the 1990s schools adopted zero tolerance policies that led to disproportionately severe punishments for minor infractions. Not surprisingly, these policies impacted Black students the most.

Is there a middle ground? Of course there is. But going back to zero tolerance is not the answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Teachers’ responses to students have resulted in racial disparities, with ethnic and racial minority students receiving behavioral sanctions at higher rates (Skiba, Michael, Nardo & Peterson, 2002). Racial disparities persist even after controlling for socioeconomic class, neighborhood features, and severity of the offense (Wallace, Goodkind, Wallace, & Bachman, 2008). Racial disparities are most pronounced in referrals requiring subjective interpretation of student behavior, such as deviance and disrespect, but disparities disappear for the more serious behavioral disruptions that are detected more objectively, such as smoking or physical altercations (APA Zero Tolerance Task Force, 2008; Gregory & Weinstein, 2008; KewelRamani, Gilbertson, Fox & Provasnki, 2007, Skiba et al., 2002). Racial disparities persist when teachers are able to exercise their discretion in making referrals and when school policies (e.g., Zero Tolerance) require teachers to refer automatically for specific behavioral disruptions (see APA Task Force, 2008). Disciplinary referrals have been shown to be devastating to the educational achievement of targeted students (APA Zero Tolerance Task Force, 2008). Consequently, racial disparities in disciplinary practices play a critical role in the racial disparities in educational achievement, particularly for African American students (Gregory & Weinstein, 2008).

Recent research demonstrates that individual variation is critical to understanding and reducing the disciplinary gap. Teachers frustrated by a student for whom they make repeated referrals perceive a problem student. What these teachers may not realize is that most of these students (e.g., 86% in Gregory & Weinstein, 2008) are not referred in all of their classrooms, suggesting that many of these referrals are specific to particular teachers’ interactions. Gregory and Weinstein found more between classroom variability than within student variability, suggesting that student discipline reflects student-classroom interactions. Situations that teachers attribute problem students should be viewed as problems in the student-teacher relationship (Luiselli, Putnam, Handler & Feinberg, 2005; Pane, 2010). Students are more defiant and act out more often in classrooms in which the teachers are perceived by the target student (and other students) as being uncaring and having low achievement expectations, but these same students cooperate with other teachers whom they perceived as caring and as having high expectations (Gregory & Weinstein, 2008).

Consequently, one explanation for the racial disparities in discipline appears to be differential selection (Piquero, 2008; Gregory et al., 2010) in which ethnic and racial minority youth are more likely to be selected as violating school or community policies even when rates and severity of rule violations are not different than those of Whites. In support of the differential selection hypothesis is that racial disparities in behavioral referrals, school suspensions and expulsions reflect teachers differentially selecting to punish ethnic and racial minority youth for infractions associated with more subjective criteria, such as defiance to challenges to teachers’ authority, rather than behavior that is more objectively evaluated, such as physical fights and possession of weapon (Gregory & Weinstein, 2008; Skiba et al, 2008; Vavrus & Cole, 2002). Gregory et al. attributed teachers’ discriminatory use of discipline practices to racial bias, cultural mismatch, and stereotypes of academic behavior of minority youth. The cultural mismatch hypothesis suggests a mismatch between student and teacher cultural expectations for behavior in which behavior that may be considered normative by students is interpreted as hostile, threatening, and defiant by teachers. This differential selection of ethnic and racial minority boys, along with disparities in reading, set the stage for higher rates of educational underachievement for boys of color.

https://www.apa.org/ed/resources/racial-disparities.pdf

Thank you. So this confirms what I theorized to be true:

For serious-level incident student discipline, racial discrimination is not a meaningful factor. For lower-level, it is. This is what I said and what evidence backs up. So why don't we talk about the issue in this manner instead of talking ALL student behavior/discipline issues as if they are the same? They aren't.

Has anybody on this thread said that we shouldn't discipline serious offenses or any offenses? I feel like you're arguing with someone who isn't here.

Because principals are penalized by CO and others who argue that all discipline is punitive and racist and reject recommendations for student behavior that is violent and repeated. If I have to explain this to you then you're not involved enough in this debate and conversation to be taking up space here. People in this thread are literally complaining about how aggressive, violent behavior is tolerated because hands are tied due to policy constraints by people who believe we've over-disciplined students in ways that are overly punitive and racist.

What are you missing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Where we are now has to be seen in the context of history. In the 1990s schools adopted zero tolerance policies that led to disproportionately severe punishments for minor infractions. Not surprisingly, these policies impacted Black students the most.

Is there a middle ground? Of course there is. But going back to zero tolerance is not the answer.

There's a middle ground for level 1 or 2 student behavior issues, but I do think we should be zero-tolerance or close to zero tolerance for level 3 and above.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Teachers’ responses to students have resulted in racial disparities, with ethnic and racial minority students receiving behavioral sanctions at higher rates (Skiba, Michael, Nardo & Peterson, 2002). Racial disparities persist even after controlling for socioeconomic class, neighborhood features, and severity of the offense (Wallace, Goodkind, Wallace, & Bachman, 2008). Racial disparities are most pronounced in referrals requiring subjective interpretation of student behavior, such as deviance and disrespect, but disparities disappear for the more serious behavioral disruptions that are detected more objectively, such as smoking or physical altercations (APA Zero Tolerance Task Force, 2008; Gregory & Weinstein, 2008; KewelRamani, Gilbertson, Fox & Provasnki, 2007, Skiba et al., 2002). Racial disparities persist when teachers are able to exercise their discretion in making referrals and when school policies (e.g., Zero Tolerance) require teachers to refer automatically for specific behavioral disruptions (see APA Task Force, 2008). Disciplinary referrals have been shown to be devastating to the educational achievement of targeted students (APA Zero Tolerance Task Force, 2008). Consequently, racial disparities in disciplinary practices play a critical role in the racial disparities in educational achievement, particularly for African American students (Gregory & Weinstein, 2008).

Recent research demonstrates that individual variation is critical to understanding and reducing the disciplinary gap. Teachers frustrated by a student for whom they make repeated referrals perceive a problem student. What these teachers may not realize is that most of these students (e.g., 86% in Gregory & Weinstein, 2008) are not referred in all of their classrooms, suggesting that many of these referrals are specific to particular teachers’ interactions. Gregory and Weinstein found more between classroom variability than within student variability, suggesting that student discipline reflects student-classroom interactions. Situations that teachers attribute problem students should be viewed as problems in the student-teacher relationship (Luiselli, Putnam, Handler & Feinberg, 2005; Pane, 2010). Students are more defiant and act out more often in classrooms in which the teachers are perceived by the target student (and other students) as being uncaring and having low achievement expectations, but these same students cooperate with other teachers whom they perceived as caring and as having high expectations (Gregory & Weinstein, 2008).

Consequently, one explanation for the racial disparities in discipline appears to be differential selection (Piquero, 2008; Gregory et al., 2010) in which ethnic and racial minority youth are more likely to be selected as violating school or community policies even when rates and severity of rule violations are not different than those of Whites. In support of the differential selection hypothesis is that racial disparities in behavioral referrals, school suspensions and expulsions reflect teachers differentially selecting to punish ethnic and racial minority youth for infractions associated with more subjective criteria, such as defiance to challenges to teachers’ authority, rather than behavior that is more objectively evaluated, such as physical fights and possession of weapon (Gregory & Weinstein, 2008; Skiba et al, 2008; Vavrus & Cole, 2002). Gregory et al. attributed teachers’ discriminatory use of discipline practices to racial bias, cultural mismatch, and stereotypes of academic behavior of minority youth. The cultural mismatch hypothesis suggests a mismatch between student and teacher cultural expectations for behavior in which behavior that may be considered normative by students is interpreted as hostile, threatening, and defiant by teachers. This differential selection of ethnic and racial minority boys, along with disparities in reading, set the stage for higher rates of educational underachievement for boys of color.

https://www.apa.org/ed/resources/racial-disparities.pdf

Thank you. So this confirms what I theorized to be true:

For serious-level incident student discipline, racial discrimination is not a meaningful factor. For lower-level, it is. This is what I said and what evidence backs up. So why don't we talk about the issue in this manner instead of talking ALL student behavior/discipline issues as if they are the same? They aren't.

Has anybody on this thread said that we shouldn't discipline serious offenses or any offenses? I feel like you're arguing with someone who isn't here.

Because principals are penalized by CO and others who argue that all discipline is punitive and racist and reject recommendations for student behavior that is violent and repeated. If I have to explain this to you then you're not involved enough in this debate and conversation to be taking up space here. People in this thread are literally complaining about how aggressive, violent behavior is tolerated because hands are tied due to policy constraints by people who believe we've over-disciplined students in ways that are overly punitive and racist.

What are you missing?

Okay. Got it. You are arguing with people who aren't here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where we are now has to be seen in the context of history. In the 1990s schools adopted zero tolerance policies that led to disproportionately severe punishments for minor infractions. Not surprisingly, these policies impacted Black students the most.

Is there a middle ground? Of course there is. But going back to zero tolerance is not the answer.

There's a middle ground for level 1 or 2 student behavior issues, but I do think we should be zero-tolerance or close to zero tolerance for level 3 and above.

That was never what zero tolerance was or how it was applied.

[Anonymous]

Btw obviously nobody is arguing for more white students to be suspended. I mean I think they should be but I'm not one of the people (who aren't here) that you are arguign with. White parents flip out when their children are suspended and they have the time and money to fight the suspensions. MCPS has zero backbone when it comes to rich white moms.