Reply to Violence in Kindergarten- Sligo Creek Elementary

Forum Index » Montgomery County Public Schools (MCPS)

Reply to "Violence in Kindergarten- Sligo Creek Elementary "

Subject:

Emoticons





More smilies

Text Color: Font: Close Marks

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]It's not sped it kids coming from violent homes. There are plenty of parents out there who beat their kids[/quote]

It is more kids coming from super permissive homes where there is no discipline just screens whenever the student demands it, no structure, and the kid who is often smart and strong willed soon realizes he or she can do whatever they want and the parent won't intervene. So the parent walks on eggshells or gives in to all the kid's demands because they don't want to see the kid tantrum. So the kid comes to school and realizes no one can touch them or do anything to them. The teacher tells the parent the student is misbehaving and there are NO consequences at home. There are also no rewards that are effective because the student gets whatever they want at home. [/quote]

Teacher here. This is more likely the case. I have a student who is nearly as tall as I am and she's 6 yrs old. The only way her mom can get her to school (according to her mom) is to let her walk with her (the student's) phone. When mom gets her to the front door, she walks inside with her until she lines up with her class and then her mom tries to quickly pull the phone away and hightail it out of there. Needless to say, it's like WW3 every morning. My colleague and I end up blocking the door with our bodies to prevent her from running out the door after her mom. We've had meetings about this (and her other awful behaviors) but the real problem is mom's inability to say no. This child has tantrums like a 2 yr old multiple times per day. They last for at least 15 minutes and the entire class comes to a halt because she is screaming the entire time. This child doesn't have special needs. Her mother just doesn't want to parent so all of us get to deal with that. There are 3-4 of these kids in every grade.[/quote]

I just spent 7 weeks working in an out of school time program at the YMCA in a Title I schools community.

Hands down, the kids with diagnoses or who were SPED were LESS disruptive and problematic than the kids who simply are not being parented, period.

These are average to above average intellect kids who are running the show in our classrooms and other youth development programs because the new social justice paradigm (I am, by the way, uber liberal and was an antiracist before the term was in any kind of widespread use) is that you don't discipline these kids or kick them out of the program as your progressive accountability structure allows - you just keep abiding and trying to give them positive incentives to conform their behavior to norms.

And in the meantime the vast majority of kids who make good choices are getting bullied and traumatized by witnesses bullying and assaults both physical and verbal on a regular basis - on them, their peers and yes, on their adult instructors.

For some percentage of kids, seeing those things on a regular basis normalizes that kind of behavior and violence and it invites some kids to engage in behaviors they never otherwise would have tried.

It's a disaster, truly. I was planning to go into public school teaching through a program that requires a 2 year commitment to a Title I school district and I've decided - NO THANKS.

It would be different if there was any accountability structure left for kids who make bad choices, but there really isn't. The school district where I was going to teach is one among many nationwide that have been sued for having an in school and out of school suspension program and for using it as designed. While investigation by the federal OCV found there was no intent to racial bias in using the progressive accountability structure, the majority of kids who ended up being in and out of school suspended were BIPOC and so it was no longer okay to use it because apparently we are just going to abide the behavior and that's going to motivate the kids to change and conform to social norms.

Is anyone really surprised that violence is more and more normative in our society?

What really makes me sad is that this is just a recycling of the soft bigotry of low expectations. These social justice warriors in our schools and other youth development program leadership structures think they a striking a blow for antiracism, but to me it looks like they are enabling and encouraging kids into the juvenile justice system and eventually likely the adult justice system, just in a different fashion than the previous school to prison pipeline.

And yes, plenty of the disruptive kids are white, too. We are failing all these kids whose parents already did. We'll pay the price down the road as we always have done.[/quote]

You know it's going to be good anytime someone starts a rant assuring others that they're not a racist. And this one did not disappoint.

Let me guess, you have black friends, too?[/quote]

I have spent my entire career working in BIPOC communities, and yes, many if not most of my friends are BIPOC.

It's so easy to jump to calling people racist if they want any accountability for the poor behavior choices of kids or adults and that happens to include in Title I communities a fair number of BIPOC kids.

Again, I've been uber liberal my whole life. My friends used to call me a thug hugger, and it was many of my BIPOC friends who most deeply criticized my idealism and progressive ideals.

Just for reference, I've spent my career as an educator, domestic violence advocate, CASA, legal aid attorney, public defender, prosecutor, solo law practice attorney who took poor clients and charged on a sliding scale like a nonprofit firm (I was definitely nonprofit, lol), and most recently working with a very mixed race population of elder and disabled healthcare clients, many on hospice status.

I lived and worked on a reservation out West, I lived and worked on the AZ/Mexico border, attended law school and did criminal clinic in DC with clients living mostly in SE and Anacostia, currently live in a very diverse area and work and socialize with a diverse community.

But yeah, I'm a racist. You caught me out. I must be racist if my desire to see the majority of kids of all colors succeed in our schools might mean that a small percentage of kids of color get suspended or placed in alternative school settings. I'm a big bad racist for wanting that.

:roll: [/quote]

I’m black and I’m aligned with everything you said. The people who justify the absence of structure and consequences for black and brown kids are the real racists. Discipline is a vital and essential part of raising a healthy, productive child. Their low expectations are racist[b]. I refuse to believe that any bad behavior black and brown kids might exhibit must be tolerated in the name of antiracism.[/b] This is warped thinking at best and intentional poisonous programming at worst.[/quote]

DP. I think it's horrible that this is the approach taken by schools in the name of anti racism. There is clear evidence that black and brown kids are disciplined differently than white kids though. The problem is schools don't want/know how to address that so they've decided to just stop disciplining kids at all which ends up being even worse for BIPOC kids.[/quote]
In some communities, there is a disproportionate number of BIPOC kids in poverty and/or living in single-parent households. It is likely there would be disproportionate discipline outcomes for BIPOC kids as those two factors are known contributors to poor behavior. I don't think people really want to have that conversation anymore. It's easier to blame the schools and teachers. [/quote]

I agree with you that there are structural issues that are likely driving some real differences in behavior itself, but:
1. Those structural issues are the direct result of explicitly or implicitly racist government policies or government-supported policies; and
2. There is very clear research showing that racial bias by teachers and other school staff leads to differences in discipline for the same behaviors.

One thing you will notice in the MCPS data is that Black students in particular are disciplined a LOT, much more so than Hispanic students. The difference is extremely stark, yet poverty is actually higher among Hispanic students. Some people may choose to explain this due to cultural differences, and maybe that plays a role, but to deny that racial bias might play a significant role in these disparities, given the local data and the large body of research on this topic, just doesn't pass the smell test.

https://www.npscoalition.org/post/racially-disproportionate-discipline-in-early-childhood-educational-settings
"There is no evidence that Black children display greater or more severe misbehavior.[i],[ii] Disproportionate preschool suspensions are the result of adult behaviors.[iii],[iv] Research suggests Black children are punished more severely than their peers for the same or similar behaviors and that they are subject to increased scrutiny starting as early as preschool. Research further suggests that Black children are often the subjects of teachers’ implicit racial bias, with adults perceiving Black children as older than they are, less innocent than their peers, more culpable and aggressive, and more deserving of harsher punishment than white children.[v],[vi] These disparities are often attributable to the lack of teacher training and ongoing supports."
[/quote]

We have to be careful when we talk about the disproportionality of student discipline by race.

The concerning behavior is physical assault, violence, weapons, drugs, etc. which I believe in disciplinary issues that are category 3 and above. Is there evidence that white kids are physically assaulting their peers and teachers and not being disciplined at the same rate as black and Hispanic kids? If so, bring forth the evidence. And if that is the case, why isn't the call to suspend and discipline MORE white kids at the same rate as black and Hispanic kids, instead of saying we should seek to decrease suspensions overall?

Do I believe there's discrimination for those lower-level suspensions due to the subjectively defined category 1 of "disrespect"? Absolutely. But you need to talk about these disparities with more specificity and nuance. There are categories of concerning student behavior with corresponding disciplinary actions that aligns with the category.

Parents, black, white or otherwise, DO NOT want leniency on suspensions for those student behaviors that are MOST concerning, which are tier 3 and above.[/quote]

I'm not going to argue with someone that makes broad statements with racist undertones, demands I provide evidence to support my position but refuses to read the evidence I have already posted. Also, not sure if you noticed what I posted above ("The problem is schools don't want/know how to address that so they've decided to just stop disciplining kids at all which ends up being even worse for BIPOC kids.") So although I think you're kind of ignorant, I do think we actually agree that schools should manage and discipline student behaviors.[/quote]

Options

	Disable HTML in this message
	Disable BB Code in this message
	Disable smilies in this message

Review message

Search Recent Topics Hottest Topics