Violence in Kindergarten- Sligo Creek Elementary

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not sped it kids coming from violent homes. There are plenty of parents out there who beat their kids

It is more kids coming from super permissive homes where there is no discipline just screens whenever the student demands it, no structure, and the kid who is often smart and strong willed soon realizes he or she can do whatever they want and the parent won't intervene. So the parent walks on eggshells or gives in to all the kid's demands because they don't want to see the kid tantrum. So the kid comes to school and realizes no one can touch them or do anything to them. The teacher tells the parent the student is misbehaving and there are NO consequences at home. There are also no rewards that are effective because the student gets whatever they want at home.

Teacher here. This is more likely the case. I have a student who is nearly as tall as I am and she's 6 yrs old. The only way her mom can get her to school (according to her mom) is to let her walk with her (the student's) phone. When mom gets her to the front door, she walks inside with her until she lines up with her class and then her mom tries to quickly pull the phone away and hightail it out of there. Needless to say, it's like WW3 every morning. My colleague and I end up blocking the door with our bodies to prevent her from running out the door after her mom. We've had meetings about this (and her other awful behaviors) but the real problem is mom's inability to say no. This child has tantrums like a 2 yr old multiple times per day. They last for at least 15 minutes and the entire class comes to a halt because she is screaming the entire time. This child doesn't have special needs. Her mother just doesn't want to parent so all of us get to deal with that. There are 3-4 of these kids in every grade.

I just spent 7 weeks working in an out of school time program at the YMCA in a Title I schools community.

Hands down, the kids with diagnoses or who were SPED were LESS disruptive and problematic than the kids who simply are not being parented, period.

These are average to above average intellect kids who are running the show in our classrooms and other youth development programs because the new social justice paradigm (I am, by the way, uber liberal and was an antiracist before the term was in any kind of widespread use) is that you don't discipline these kids or kick them out of the program as your progressive accountability structure allows - you just keep abiding and trying to give them positive incentives to conform their behavior to norms.

And in the meantime the vast majority of kids who make good choices are getting bullied and traumatized by witnesses bullying and assaults both physical and verbal on a regular basis - on them, their peers and yes, on their adult instructors.

For some percentage of kids, seeing those things on a regular basis normalizes that kind of behavior and violence and it invites some kids to engage in behaviors they never otherwise would have tried.

It's a disaster, truly. I was planning to go into public school teaching through a program that requires a 2 year commitment to a Title I school district and I've decided - NO THANKS.

It would be different if there was any accountability structure left for kids who make bad choices, but there really isn't. The school district where I was going to teach is one among many nationwide that have been sued for having an in school and out of school suspension program and for using it as designed. While investigation by the federal OCV found there was no intent to racial bias in using the progressive accountability structure, the majority of kids who ended up being in and out of school suspended were BIPOC and so it was no longer okay to use it because apparently we are just going to abide the behavior and that's going to motivate the kids to change and conform to social norms.

Is anyone really surprised that violence is more and more normative in our society?

What really makes me sad is that this is just a recycling of the soft bigotry of low expectations. These social justice warriors in our schools and other youth development program leadership structures think they a striking a blow for antiracism, but to me it looks like they are enabling and encouraging kids into the juvenile justice system and eventually likely the adult justice system, just in a different fashion than the previous school to prison pipeline.

And yes, plenty of the disruptive kids are white, too. We are failing all these kids whose parents already did. We'll pay the price down the road as we always have done.

You know it's going to be good anytime someone starts a rant assuring others that they're not a racist. And this one did not disappoint.

Let me guess, you have black friends, too?

I have spent my entire career working in BIPOC communities, and yes, many if not most of my friends are BIPOC.

It's so easy to jump to calling people racist if they want any accountability for the poor behavior choices of kids or adults and that happens to include in Title I communities a fair number of BIPOC kids.

Again, I've been uber liberal my whole life. My friends used to call me a thug hugger, and it was many of my BIPOC friends who most deeply criticized my idealism and progressive ideals.

Just for reference, I've spent my career as an educator, domestic violence advocate, CASA, legal aid attorney, public defender, prosecutor, solo law practice attorney who took poor clients and charged on a sliding scale like a nonprofit firm (I was definitely nonprofit, lol), and most recently working with a very mixed race population of elder and disabled healthcare clients, many on hospice status.

I lived and worked on a reservation out West, I lived and worked on the AZ/Mexico border, attended law school and did criminal clinic in DC with clients living mostly in SE and Anacostia, currently live in a very diverse area and work and socialize with a diverse community.

But yeah, I'm a racist. You caught me out. I must be racist if my desire to see the majority of kids of all colors succeed in our schools might mean that a small percentage of kids of color get suspended or placed in alternative school settings. I'm a big bad racist for wanting that.

I’m black and I’m aligned with everything you said. The people who justify the absence of structure and consequences for black and brown kids are the real racists. Discipline is a vital and essential part of raising a healthy, productive child. Their low expectations are racist. I refuse to believe that any bad behavior black and brown kids might exhibit must be tolerated in the name of antiracism. This is warped thinking at best and intentional poisonous programming at worst.

DP. I think it's horrible that this is the approach taken by schools in the name of anti racism. There is clear evidence that black and brown kids are disciplined differently than white kids though. The problem is schools don't want/know how to address that so they've decided to just stop disciplining kids at all which ends up being even worse for BIPOC kids.

In some communities, there is a disproportionate number of BIPOC kids in poverty and/or living in single-parent households. It is likely there would be disproportionate discipline outcomes for BIPOC kids as those two factors are known contributors to poor behavior. I don't think people really want to have that conversation anymore. It's easier to blame the schools and teachers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not sped it kids coming from violent homes. There are plenty of parents out there who beat their kids

It is more kids coming from super permissive homes where there is no discipline just screens whenever the student demands it, no structure, and the kid who is often smart and strong willed soon realizes he or she can do whatever they want and the parent won't intervene. So the parent walks on eggshells or gives in to all the kid's demands because they don't want to see the kid tantrum. So the kid comes to school and realizes no one can touch them or do anything to them. The teacher tells the parent the student is misbehaving and there are NO consequences at home. There are also no rewards that are effective because the student gets whatever they want at home.

Teacher here. This is more likely the case. I have a student who is nearly as tall as I am and she's 6 yrs old. The only way her mom can get her to school (according to her mom) is to let her walk with her (the student's) phone. When mom gets her to the front door, she walks inside with her until she lines up with her class and then her mom tries to quickly pull the phone away and hightail it out of there. Needless to say, it's like WW3 every morning. My colleague and I end up blocking the door with our bodies to prevent her from running out the door after her mom. We've had meetings about this (and her other awful behaviors) but the real problem is mom's inability to say no. This child has tantrums like a 2 yr old multiple times per day. They last for at least 15 minutes and the entire class comes to a halt because she is screaming the entire time. This child doesn't have special needs. Her mother just doesn't want to parent so all of us get to deal with that. There are 3-4 of these kids in every grade.

I just spent 7 weeks working in an out of school time program at the YMCA in a Title I schools community.

Hands down, the kids with diagnoses or who were SPED were LESS disruptive and problematic than the kids who simply are not being parented, period.

These are average to above average intellect kids who are running the show in our classrooms and other youth development programs because the new social justice paradigm (I am, by the way, uber liberal and was an antiracist before the term was in any kind of widespread use) is that you don't discipline these kids or kick them out of the program as your progressive accountability structure allows - you just keep abiding and trying to give them positive incentives to conform their behavior to norms.

And in the meantime the vast majority of kids who make good choices are getting bullied and traumatized by witnesses bullying and assaults both physical and verbal on a regular basis - on them, their peers and yes, on their adult instructors.

For some percentage of kids, seeing those things on a regular basis normalizes that kind of behavior and violence and it invites some kids to engage in behaviors they never otherwise would have tried.

It's a disaster, truly. I was planning to go into public school teaching through a program that requires a 2 year commitment to a Title I school district and I've decided - NO THANKS.

It would be different if there was any accountability structure left for kids who make bad choices, but there really isn't. The school district where I was going to teach is one among many nationwide that have been sued for having an in school and out of school suspension program and for using it as designed. While investigation by the federal OCV found there was no intent to racial bias in using the progressive accountability structure, the majority of kids who ended up being in and out of school suspended were BIPOC and so it was no longer okay to use it because apparently we are just going to abide the behavior and that's going to motivate the kids to change and conform to social norms.

Is anyone really surprised that violence is more and more normative in our society?

What really makes me sad is that this is just a recycling of the soft bigotry of low expectations. These social justice warriors in our schools and other youth development program leadership structures think they a striking a blow for antiracism, but to me it looks like they are enabling and encouraging kids into the juvenile justice system and eventually likely the adult justice system, just in a different fashion than the previous school to prison pipeline.

And yes, plenty of the disruptive kids are white, too. We are failing all these kids whose parents already did. We'll pay the price down the road as we always have done.

Let’s stop this. No same parent, white, black, Hispanic, Asian, or otherwise wants there to be no discipline and behavior reinforcement in school. That said, plenty of studies have shown that BIPOC kids have recieved greater punishment for the same or similar behaviors or offenses as white student. Is that true is all schools, no, but it is rampant enough to provide valid data. That is why there is a focus on suspension rates. Additionally, research has also proven that suspension in some cases is not the best solution to changing behavior and affecting how kids think about their actions long term which is why there is Restorative Justice. No one advocated for the pendulum to swing to no suspension and no discipline. And BIPOC people did not advocate for implementing RJ without the appropriate training and persons involved to help do it correctly.

So why not spend time focused on the real problem which is that the things that are needed to properly help kids and teachers can’t be done without proper staffing, resources, and funding. They also won’t be successful if we don’t work together to build a society meant to sustain families and communities and not one beholden to money and power over all else.

Throwing a 5yr old out of the classroom does solve the root cause problem, it just removes it from immediate view. The fact as a country/county we can’t direct a 5yr old to the best place for their needs is the problem.

I see your points.

But what you're concluding is that we abide disruptive and violent behaviors until we have solved the underfunding of public schools and all the social ills which are allegedly to blame for some parents simply refusing to parent - parents of ALL colors, by the way.

So since those problems have not been solved in centuries, we are basically choosing to let anarchy be the status quo in public schools and other youth programs going forward.

And we're wondering why there is a desperate shortage of educators at all levels?

I’m not concluding that we descend into anarchy or abide by disruptive behavior. In fact I stated that no one wants that. What I’m advocating is that we address the root cause of problems instead of band-aides. Removing a 5yr old from class solves that classes problem. Yay for them. But it becomes another class’ problem because this is a 5yr old who is still required to have a class. Until we do right by this 5yr old we’re just playing hot potatoe with the problem. And that will continue forever with this 5yr old and others until we as adults start saying, you know what, it’s beyond time that we have a true honest local, state, and national
conversation and investment in what it means to be a society. L

And if we are stuck here arguing and complaining about a violent 5yr old instead of using this situation to propel folks into positive action, then what good comes out of this situation? There are policies and procedures in place currently to deal with the violent 5yr. They may not be the best policies, but they certainly won’t get better if we don’t address the reason why we can’t have better policy and procedures.

The point that current educators are trying to make in this thread is that no, there are not policies and procedures currently in place and being used to deal with violent 5 year olds and violent students of varying ages.

Since the 'racial reckoning' of 2020, the response of the overwhelming majority of school administrators/BOEs is to drop the ball. There aren't sufficient resources to engage in truly productive restorative justice in most of these schools (the vast majority), so there just isn't accountability. Bullying and violence are at all time highs which might account for some of the mental health crisis among our kids.

This is what's driving me crazy about MCPS right now. Most of us actually agree that there should be equal opportunities for all kids, regardless of background. We also mostly agree that the previous systems advantaged specific groups and disadvantaged others.

But this stuff is hard and MCPS does not seem to have an appetite for doing the work, long-term, and with a plan that might not show results immediately.

You mention restorative justice, which is a really good example. Doing RJ right is hard, and it is expensive, so MCPS Central Office just half-assed the trainings, told principals to stop suspending kids, and then sat back and watched suspensions fall while violence in school went up. It worked, but only if your sole metric is "are BIPOC kids being suspended." It did not work if your metric is "Do BIPOC kids feel safe in school?"

[Anonymous]

Trying again:

The point that current educators are trying to make in this thread is that no, there are not policies and procedures currently in place and being used to deal with violent 5 year olds and violent students of varying ages.

Since the 'racial reckoning' of 2020, the response of the overwhelming majority of school administrators/BOEs is to drop the ball. There aren't sufficient resources to engage in truly productive restorative justice in most of these schools (the vast majority), so there just isn't accountability. Bullying and violence are at all time highs which might account for some of the mental health crisis among our kids.

This is what's driving me crazy about MCPS right now. Most of us actually agree that there should be equal opportunities for all kids, regardless of background. We also mostly agree that the previous systems advantaged specific groups and disadvantaged others.

But this stuff is hard and MCPS does not seem to have an appetite for doing the work, long-term, and with a plan that might not show results immediately.

You mention restorative justice, which is a really good example. Doing RJ right is hard, and it is expensive, so MCPS Central Office just half-assed the trainings, told principals to stop suspending kids, and then sat back and watched suspensions fall while violence in school went up. It worked, but only if your sole metric is "are BIPOC kids being suspended." It did not work if your metric is "Do BIPOC kids feel safe in school?"

Another example is Honors for All. Yes, BIPOC kids were underrepresented in honors classes, but instead of investing in identifying bright kids from low-income and historically marginalized groups, and nurturing those talents, MCPS just got ride of on-level coursework. It's absolutely the laziest, most superficial, approach possible.

[Anonymous]

I teach in a Title 1 school and my students are mostly well behaved. Most are not white and come from poverty mostly due to single parenthood. Poor behavior comes from parents not teaching their kids how to behave, absent of special needs. It doesn’t come from poverty and from being raised by a single parent.

I’m a single parent of a college DS. He was raised by me when his father left and moved across the country. I was also raised in a single parent household. My siblings and I were raised by our mother to be respectful and responsible people. People need to stop blaming things on factors that probably will never change (poverty, single parenthood) and take personal responsibility for their kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not sped it kids coming from violent homes. There are plenty of parents out there who beat their kids

It is more kids coming from super permissive homes where there is no discipline just screens whenever the student demands it, no structure, and the kid who is often smart and strong willed soon realizes he or she can do whatever they want and the parent won't intervene. So the parent walks on eggshells or gives in to all the kid's demands because they don't want to see the kid tantrum. So the kid comes to school and realizes no one can touch them or do anything to them. The teacher tells the parent the student is misbehaving and there are NO consequences at home. There are also no rewards that are effective because the student gets whatever they want at home.

Teacher here. This is more likely the case. I have a student who is nearly as tall as I am and she's 6 yrs old. The only way her mom can get her to school (according to her mom) is to let her walk with her (the student's) phone. When mom gets her to the front door, she walks inside with her until she lines up with her class and then her mom tries to quickly pull the phone away and hightail it out of there. Needless to say, it's like WW3 every morning. My colleague and I end up blocking the door with our bodies to prevent her from running out the door after her mom. We've had meetings about this (and her other awful behaviors) but the real problem is mom's inability to say no. This child has tantrums like a 2 yr old multiple times per day. They last for at least 15 minutes and the entire class comes to a halt because she is screaming the entire time. This child doesn't have special needs. Her mother just doesn't want to parent so all of us get to deal with that. There are 3-4 of these kids in every grade.

I just spent 7 weeks working in an out of school time program at the YMCA in a Title I schools community.

Hands down, the kids with diagnoses or who were SPED were LESS disruptive and problematic than the kids who simply are not being parented, period.

These are average to above average intellect kids who are running the show in our classrooms and other youth development programs because the new social justice paradigm (I am, by the way, uber liberal and was an antiracist before the term was in any kind of widespread use) is that you don't discipline these kids or kick them out of the program as your progressive accountability structure allows - you just keep abiding and trying to give them positive incentives to conform their behavior to norms.

And in the meantime the vast majority of kids who make good choices are getting bullied and traumatized by witnesses bullying and assaults both physical and verbal on a regular basis - on them, their peers and yes, on their adult instructors.

For some percentage of kids, seeing those things on a regular basis normalizes that kind of behavior and violence and it invites some kids to engage in behaviors they never otherwise would have tried.

It's a disaster, truly. I was planning to go into public school teaching through a program that requires a 2 year commitment to a Title I school district and I've decided - NO THANKS.

It would be different if there was any accountability structure left for kids who make bad choices, but there really isn't. The school district where I was going to teach is one among many nationwide that have been sued for having an in school and out of school suspension program and for using it as designed. While investigation by the federal OCV found there was no intent to racial bias in using the progressive accountability structure, the majority of kids who ended up being in and out of school suspended were BIPOC and so it was no longer okay to use it because apparently we are just going to abide the behavior and that's going to motivate the kids to change and conform to social norms.

Is anyone really surprised that violence is more and more normative in our society?

What really makes me sad is that this is just a recycling of the soft bigotry of low expectations. These social justice warriors in our schools and other youth development program leadership structures think they a striking a blow for antiracism, but to me it looks like they are enabling and encouraging kids into the juvenile justice system and eventually likely the adult justice system, just in a different fashion than the previous school to prison pipeline.

And yes, plenty of the disruptive kids are white, too. We are failing all these kids whose parents already did. We'll pay the price down the road as we always have done.

You know it's going to be good anytime someone starts a rant assuring others that they're not a racist. And this one did not disappoint.

Let me guess, you have black friends, too?

Their post is disingenuous. While I agree that schools have problems and need to improve, their post is contemptible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is not true.
OP is a troll.
I just called the school and asked.
I then called multiple news orgs not one will has heard this either.

This is a harmful statement to make. It is 100% true and the staff member literally had to get staples in their head. To discredit the experiences of those working in the county and specifically at SCES is extremely disrespectful. Why would anyone fabricate this incident and publicize it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DP. I can’t speak to every single detail mentioned but broadly speaking this is true. I just heard the water bottle story today from a neighbor.

Did they explain how someone could get significantly injured from a water bottle? Because that's the main thing that doesn't seem plausible.

Have you never seen a metal/aluminum/insulated water bottle before? They are quite heavy, even more so when filled up. Don’t be dense

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I teach in a Title 1 school and my students are mostly well behaved. Most are not white and come from poverty mostly due to single parenthood. Poor behavior comes from parents not teaching their kids how to behave, absent of special needs. It doesn’t come from poverty and from being raised by a single parent.

I’m a single parent of a college DS. He was raised by me when his father left and moved across the country. I was also raised in a single parent household. My siblings and I were raised by our mother to be respectful and responsible people. People need to stop blaming things on factors that probably will never change (poverty, single parenthood) and take personal responsibility for their kids.

I’m the YMCA group leader and just want to endorse this perspective.

Most of the kids in the program I worked in - kids of all colors - were from low income homes and often single parent as well. 80% of the kids were on vouchers. Most of them were reasonably well behaved for grade level.

I grew up in poverty at times and slightly more abundance at others. There was nothing about our bank account or the fact that we often didn’t have much to eat that kept us from learning manners and respect for authority figures in school settings. Don’t indict poor people as universally bad parents because that is far from the truth.


Meanwhile, the parents of the black honor roll student who is on video bashing a white student’s head several times into the pavement until she seized and has now been in coma for over a week are decrying the charges against their daughter, pointing out that she is an honor roll student and that she was defending herself against bullying.

As though whatever verbal disrespect the two of them exchanged before the potentially lethal physical assault on a girl half her weight could have ever justified that gruesomely violent response.

That is a failure of parenting, full stop. It’s a failure to inculcate reasonable morals while raising your child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And the person who was injured yesterday and has staples in her head is a paraeducator, not a classroom teacher.

Then she wasn't doing her job, assuming she was in room to help with that student.

If, of course, any part of this story is true at all.

You sound absolutely ridiculous. She was doing her job, no me of the staff in the school are able to handle that student. He is extremely violent and has bitten and injured multiple students and staff members. No one is making it up what would anyone gain from that? Multiple staff members have no expressed that they are not comfortable or feel unsafe working with that student. The principal has passively dismissed all concerns and now a staff member is injured because of it. Stop denying the experiences of the people witnessing this VIOLENCE every single day!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Trying again:

The point that current educators are trying to make in this thread is that no, there are not policies and procedures currently in place and being used to deal with violent 5 year olds and violent students of varying ages.

Since the 'racial reckoning' of 2020, the response of the overwhelming majority of school administrators/BOEs is to drop the ball. There aren't sufficient resources to engage in truly productive restorative justice in most of these schools (the vast majority), so there just isn't accountability. Bullying and violence are at all time highs which might account for some of the mental health crisis among our kids.

This is what's driving me crazy about MCPS right now. Most of us actually agree that there should be equal opportunities for all kids, regardless of background. We also mostly agree that the previous systems advantaged specific groups and disadvantaged others.

But this stuff is hard and MCPS does not seem to have an appetite for doing the work, long-term, and with a plan that might not show results immediately.

You mention restorative justice, which is a really good example. Doing RJ right is hard, and it is expensive, so MCPS Central Office just half-assed the trainings, told principals to stop suspending kids, and then sat back and watched suspensions fall while violence in school went up. It worked, but only if your sole metric is "are BIPOC kids being suspended." It did not work if your metric is "Do BIPOC kids feel safe in school?"

Another example is Honors for All. Yes, BIPOC kids were underrepresented in honors classes, but instead of investing in identifying bright kids from low-income and historically marginalized groups, and nurturing those talents, MCPS just got ride of on-level coursework. It's absolutely the laziest, most superficial, approach possible.

PREEEEEEAAAAAACHHHHH!!!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I teach in a Title 1 school and my students are mostly well behaved. Most are not white and come from poverty mostly due to single parenthood. Poor behavior comes from parents not teaching their kids how to behave, absent of special needs. It doesn’t come from poverty and from being raised by a single parent.

I’m a single parent of a college DS. He was raised by me when his father left and moved across the country. I was also raised in a single parent household. My siblings and I were raised by our mother to be respectful and responsible people. People need to stop blaming things on factors that probably will never change (poverty, single parenthood) and take personal responsibility for their kids.

I appreciate the anecdote and many kids from these backgrounds are perfectly well-behaved. It's not a rule, but a contributing factor. I agree it's also parenting that is to blame and personal responsibility is required. It is harder though to be a strong parent when you are dealing with kids alone and in poverty. There is plenty of research on poverty and single-parent households and the effect these challenges have on children's outcomes.

The comment doesn't say ALL poor and single-parent households raise bad behaving kids, but that those are contributing factors to poorly parented children and that if certain demographics have disproportionate numbers of those factors, it is expected that there may be overrepresentation of a given demographic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not sped it kids coming from violent homes. There are plenty of parents out there who beat their kids

It is more kids coming from super permissive homes where there is no discipline just screens whenever the student demands it, no structure, and the kid who is often smart and strong willed soon realizes he or she can do whatever they want and the parent won't intervene. So the parent walks on eggshells or gives in to all the kid's demands because they don't want to see the kid tantrum. So the kid comes to school and realizes no one can touch them or do anything to them. The teacher tells the parent the student is misbehaving and there are NO consequences at home. There are also no rewards that are effective because the student gets whatever they want at home.

Teacher here. This is more likely the case. I have a student who is nearly as tall as I am and she's 6 yrs old. The only way her mom can get her to school (according to her mom) is to let her walk with her (the student's) phone. When mom gets her to the front door, she walks inside with her until she lines up with her class and then her mom tries to quickly pull the phone away and hightail it out of there. Needless to say, it's like WW3 every morning. My colleague and I end up blocking the door with our bodies to prevent her from running out the door after her mom. We've had meetings about this (and her other awful behaviors) but the real problem is mom's inability to say no. This child has tantrums like a 2 yr old multiple times per day. They last for at least 15 minutes and the entire class comes to a halt because she is screaming the entire time. This child doesn't have special needs. Her mother just doesn't want to parent so all of us get to deal with that. There are 3-4 of these kids in every grade.

I just spent 7 weeks working in an out of school time program at the YMCA in a Title I schools community.

Hands down, the kids with diagnoses or who were SPED were LESS disruptive and problematic than the kids who simply are not being parented, period.

These are average to above average intellect kids who are running the show in our classrooms and other youth development programs because the new social justice paradigm (I am, by the way, uber liberal and was an antiracist before the term was in any kind of widespread use) is that you don't discipline these kids or kick them out of the program as your progressive accountability structure allows - you just keep abiding and trying to give them positive incentives to conform their behavior to norms.

And in the meantime the vast majority of kids who make good choices are getting bullied and traumatized by witnesses bullying and assaults both physical and verbal on a regular basis - on them, their peers and yes, on their adult instructors.

For some percentage of kids, seeing those things on a regular basis normalizes that kind of behavior and violence and it invites some kids to engage in behaviors they never otherwise would have tried.

It's a disaster, truly. I was planning to go into public school teaching through a program that requires a 2 year commitment to a Title I school district and I've decided - NO THANKS.

It would be different if there was any accountability structure left for kids who make bad choices, but there really isn't. The school district where I was going to teach is one among many nationwide that have been sued for having an in school and out of school suspension program and for using it as designed. While investigation by the federal OCV found there was no intent to racial bias in using the progressive accountability structure, the majority of kids who ended up being in and out of school suspended were BIPOC and so it was no longer okay to use it because apparently we are just going to abide the behavior and that's going to motivate the kids to change and conform to social norms.

Is anyone really surprised that violence is more and more normative in our society?

What really makes me sad is that this is just a recycling of the soft bigotry of low expectations. These social justice warriors in our schools and other youth development program leadership structures think they a striking a blow for antiracism, but to me it looks like they are enabling and encouraging kids into the juvenile justice system and eventually likely the adult justice system, just in a different fashion than the previous school to prison pipeline.

And yes, plenty of the disruptive kids are white, too. We are failing all these kids whose parents already did. We'll pay the price down the road as we always have done.

You know it's going to be good anytime someone starts a rant assuring others that they're not a racist. And this one did not disappoint.

Let me guess, you have black friends, too?

I have spent my entire career working in BIPOC communities, and yes, many if not most of my friends are BIPOC.

It's so easy to jump to calling people racist if they want any accountability for the poor behavior choices of kids or adults and that happens to include in Title I communities a fair number of BIPOC kids.

Again, I've been uber liberal my whole life. My friends used to call me a thug hugger, and it was many of my BIPOC friends who most deeply criticized my idealism and progressive ideals.

Just for reference, I've spent my career as an educator, domestic violence advocate, CASA, legal aid attorney, public defender, prosecutor, solo law practice attorney who took poor clients and charged on a sliding scale like a nonprofit firm (I was definitely nonprofit, lol), and most recently working with a very mixed race population of elder and disabled healthcare clients, many on hospice status.

I lived and worked on a reservation out West, I lived and worked on the AZ/Mexico border, attended law school and did criminal clinic in DC with clients living mostly in SE and Anacostia, currently live in a very diverse area and work and socialize with a diverse community.

But yeah, I'm a racist. You caught me out. I must be racist if my desire to see the majority of kids of all colors succeed in our schools might mean that a small percentage of kids of color get suspended or placed in alternative school settings. I'm a big bad racist for wanting that.

I’m black and I’m aligned with everything you said. The people who justify the absence of structure and consequences for black and brown kids are the real racists. Discipline is a vital and essential part of raising a healthy, productive child. Their low expectations are racist. I refuse to believe that any bad behavior black and brown kids might exhibit must be tolerated in the name of antiracism. This is warped thinking at best and intentional poisonous programming at worst.

DP. I think it's horrible that this is the approach taken by schools in the name of anti racism. There is clear evidence that black and brown kids are disciplined differently than white kids though. The problem is schools don't want/know how to address that so they've decided to just stop disciplining kids at all which ends up being even worse for BIPOC kids.

In some communities, there is a disproportionate number of BIPOC kids in poverty and/or living in single-parent households. It is likely there would be disproportionate discipline outcomes for BIPOC kids as those two factors are known contributors to poor behavior. I don't think people really want to have that conversation anymore. It's easier to blame the schools and teachers.

I agree with you that there are structural issues that are likely driving some real differences in behavior itself, but:
1. Those structural issues are the direct result of explicitly or implicitly racist government policies or government-supported policies; and
2. There is very clear research showing that racial bias by teachers and other school staff leads to differences in discipline for the same behaviors.

One thing you will notice in the MCPS data is that Black students in particular are disciplined a LOT, much more so than Hispanic students. The difference is extremely stark, yet poverty is actually higher among Hispanic students. Some people may choose to explain this due to cultural differences, and maybe that plays a role, but to deny that racial bias might play a significant role in these disparities, given the local data and the large body of research on this topic, just doesn't pass the smell test.

https://www.npscoalition.org/post/racially-disproportionate-discipline-in-early-childhood-educational-settings
"There is no evidence that Black children display greater or more severe misbehavior.[i],[ii] Disproportionate preschool suspensions are the result of adult behaviors.[iii],[iv] Research suggests Black children are punished more severely than their peers for the same or similar behaviors and that they are subject to increased scrutiny starting as early as preschool. Research further suggests that Black children are often the subjects of teachers’ implicit racial bias, with adults perceiving Black children as older than they are, less innocent than their peers, more culpable and aggressive, and more deserving of harsher punishment than white children.[v],[vi] These disparities are often attributable to the lack of teacher training and ongoing supports."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Trying again:

The point that current educators are trying to make in this thread is that no, there are not policies and procedures currently in place and being used to deal with violent 5 year olds and violent students of varying ages.

Since the 'racial reckoning' of 2020, the response of the overwhelming majority of school administrators/BOEs is to drop the ball. There aren't sufficient resources to engage in truly productive restorative justice in most of these schools (the vast majority), so there just isn't accountability. Bullying and violence are at all time highs which might account for some of the mental health crisis among our kids.

This is what's driving me crazy about MCPS right now. Most of us actually agree that there should be equal opportunities for all kids, regardless of background. We also mostly agree that the previous systems advantaged specific groups and disadvantaged others.

But this stuff is hard and MCPS does not seem to have an appetite for doing the work, long-term, and with a plan that might not show results immediately.

You mention restorative justice, which is a really good example. Doing RJ right is hard, and it is expensive, so MCPS Central Office just half-assed the trainings, told principals to stop suspending kids, and then sat back and watched suspensions fall while violence in school went up. It worked, but only if your sole metric is "are BIPOC kids being suspended." It did not work if your metric is "Do BIPOC kids feel safe in school?"

Another example is Honors for All. Yes, BIPOC kids were underrepresented in honors classes, but instead of investing in identifying bright kids from low-income and historically marginalized groups, and nurturing those talents, MCPS just got ride of on-level coursework. It's absolutely the laziest, most superficial, approach possible.

PREEEEEEAAAAAACHHHHH!!!!!

+1 absolutely. The PP's post is The Answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not sped it kids coming from violent homes. There are plenty of parents out there who beat their kids

It is more kids coming from super permissive homes where there is no discipline just screens whenever the student demands it, no structure, and the kid who is often smart and strong willed soon realizes he or she can do whatever they want and the parent won't intervene. So the parent walks on eggshells or gives in to all the kid's demands because they don't want to see the kid tantrum. So the kid comes to school and realizes no one can touch them or do anything to them. The teacher tells the parent the student is misbehaving and there are NO consequences at home. There are also no rewards that are effective because the student gets whatever they want at home.

Teacher here. This is more likely the case. I have a student who is nearly as tall as I am and she's 6 yrs old. The only way her mom can get her to school (according to her mom) is to let her walk with her (the student's) phone. When mom gets her to the front door, she walks inside with her until she lines up with her class and then her mom tries to quickly pull the phone away and hightail it out of there. Needless to say, it's like WW3 every morning. My colleague and I end up blocking the door with our bodies to prevent her from running out the door after her mom. We've had meetings about this (and her other awful behaviors) but the real problem is mom's inability to say no. This child has tantrums like a 2 yr old multiple times per day. They last for at least 15 minutes and the entire class comes to a halt because she is screaming the entire time. This child doesn't have special needs. Her mother just doesn't want to parent so all of us get to deal with that. There are 3-4 of these kids in every grade.

I just spent 7 weeks working in an out of school time program at the YMCA in a Title I schools community.

Hands down, the kids with diagnoses or who were SPED were LESS disruptive and problematic than the kids who simply are not being parented, period.

These are average to above average intellect kids who are running the show in our classrooms and other youth development programs because the new social justice paradigm (I am, by the way, uber liberal and was an antiracist before the term was in any kind of widespread use) is that you don't discipline these kids or kick them out of the program as your progressive accountability structure allows - you just keep abiding and trying to give them positive incentives to conform their behavior to norms.

And in the meantime the vast majority of kids who make good choices are getting bullied and traumatized by witnesses bullying and assaults both physical and verbal on a regular basis - on them, their peers and yes, on their adult instructors.

For some percentage of kids, seeing those things on a regular basis normalizes that kind of behavior and violence and it invites some kids to engage in behaviors they never otherwise would have tried.

It's a disaster, truly. I was planning to go into public school teaching through a program that requires a 2 year commitment to a Title I school district and I've decided - NO THANKS.

It would be different if there was any accountability structure left for kids who make bad choices, but there really isn't. The school district where I was going to teach is one among many nationwide that have been sued for having an in school and out of school suspension program and for using it as designed. While investigation by the federal OCV found there was no intent to racial bias in using the progressive accountability structure, the majority of kids who ended up being in and out of school suspended were BIPOC and so it was no longer okay to use it because apparently we are just going to abide the behavior and that's going to motivate the kids to change and conform to social norms.

Is anyone really surprised that violence is more and more normative in our society?

What really makes me sad is that this is just a recycling of the soft bigotry of low expectations. These social justice warriors in our schools and other youth development program leadership structures think they a striking a blow for antiracism, but to me it looks like they are enabling and encouraging kids into the juvenile justice system and eventually likely the adult justice system, just in a different fashion than the previous school to prison pipeline.

And yes, plenty of the disruptive kids are white, too. We are failing all these kids whose parents already did. We'll pay the price down the road as we always have done.

You know it's going to be good anytime someone starts a rant assuring others that they're not a racist. And this one did not disappoint.

Let me guess, you have black friends, too?

I have spent my entire career working in BIPOC communities, and yes, many if not most of my friends are BIPOC.

It's so easy to jump to calling people racist if they want any accountability for the poor behavior choices of kids or adults and that happens to include in Title I communities a fair number of BIPOC kids.

Again, I've been uber liberal my whole life. My friends used to call me a thug hugger, and it was many of my BIPOC friends who most deeply criticized my idealism and progressive ideals.

Just for reference, I've spent my career as an educator, domestic violence advocate, CASA, legal aid attorney, public defender, prosecutor, solo law practice attorney who took poor clients and charged on a sliding scale like a nonprofit firm (I was definitely nonprofit, lol), and most recently working with a very mixed race population of elder and disabled healthcare clients, many on hospice status.

I lived and worked on a reservation out West, I lived and worked on the AZ/Mexico border, attended law school and did criminal clinic in DC with clients living mostly in SE and Anacostia, currently live in a very diverse area and work and socialize with a diverse community.

But yeah, I'm a racist. You caught me out. I must be racist if my desire to see the majority of kids of all colors succeed in our schools might mean that a small percentage of kids of color get suspended or placed in alternative school settings. I'm a big bad racist for wanting that.

I’m black and I’m aligned with everything you said. The people who justify the absence of structure and consequences for black and brown kids are the real racists. Discipline is a vital and essential part of raising a healthy, productive child. Their low expectations are racist. I refuse to believe that any bad behavior black and brown kids might exhibit must be tolerated in the name of antiracism. This is warped thinking at best and intentional poisonous programming at worst.

DP. I think it's horrible that this is the approach taken by schools in the name of anti racism. There is clear evidence that black and brown kids are disciplined differently than white kids though. The problem is schools don't want/know how to address that so they've decided to just stop disciplining kids at all which ends up being even worse for BIPOC kids.

In some communities, there is a disproportionate number of BIPOC kids in poverty and/or living in single-parent households. It is likely there would be disproportionate discipline outcomes for BIPOC kids as those two factors are known contributors to poor behavior. I don't think people really want to have that conversation anymore. It's easier to blame the schools and teachers.

I agree with you that there are structural issues that are likely driving some real differences in behavior itself, but:
1. Those structural issues are the direct result of explicitly or implicitly racist government policies or government-supported policies; and
2. There is very clear research showing that racial bias by teachers and other school staff leads to differences in discipline for the same behaviors.

One thing you will notice in the MCPS data is that Black students in particular are disciplined a LOT, much more so than Hispanic students. The difference is extremely stark, yet poverty is actually higher among Hispanic students. Some people may choose to explain this due to cultural differences, and maybe that plays a role, but to deny that racial bias might play a significant role in these disparities, given the local data and the large body of research on this topic, just doesn't pass the smell test.

https://www.npscoalition.org/post/racially-disproportionate-discipline-in-early-childhood-educational-settings
"There is no evidence that Black children display greater or more severe misbehavior.[i],[ii] Disproportionate preschool suspensions are the result of adult behaviors.[iii],[iv] Research suggests Black children are punished more severely than their peers for the same or similar behaviors and that they are subject to increased scrutiny starting as early as preschool. Research further suggests that Black children are often the subjects of teachers’ implicit racial bias, with adults perceiving Black children as older than they are, less innocent than their peers, more culpable and aggressive, and more deserving of harsher punishment than white children.[v],[vi] These disparities are often attributable to the lack of teacher training and ongoing supports."

We have to be careful when we talk about the disproportionality of student discipline by race.

The concerning behavior is physical assault, violence, weapons, drugs, etc. which I believe in disciplinary issues that are category 3 and above. Is there evidence that white kids are physically assaulting their peers and teachers and not being disciplined at the same rate as black and Hispanic kids? If so, bring forth the evidence. And if that is the case, why isn't the call to suspend and discipline MORE white kids at the same rate as black and Hispanic kids, instead of saying we should seek to decrease suspensions overall?

Do I believe there's discrimination for those lower-level suspensions due to the subjectively defined category 1 of "disrespect"? Absolutely. But you need to talk about these disparities with more specificity and nuance. There are categories of concerning student behavior with corresponding disciplinary actions that aligns with the category.

Parents, black, white or otherwise, DO NOT want leniency on suspensions for those student behaviors that are MOST concerning, which are tier 3 and above.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And the person who was injured yesterday and has staples in her head is a paraeducator, not a classroom teacher.

Then she wasn't doing her job, assuming she was in room to help with that student.

If, of course, any part of this story is true at all.

What in the f?

Why would you assume she was in the room as a 1:1 to that student?

Why would you assume that someone doing their job as a 1:1 aide can’t be harmed by a kid?

Are we all living on the same planet where a 6 year old shot a teacher last year or were you at your home base on Mars for that?

Why? Because MCPS's standard for getting a 1:1 is far less than what has been described in this thread.

And an adult that is paying attention should be more than capable of preventing a 6 year old from obtaining and throwing an apparently heavy object. Again, if this story is actually a true story, which seems less and less likely.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You think it is so easy that you stand next to the child and say -no, please stop, go back to your seat - and the out of control child automatically follows your directions?

That’s not how it works -you are trying to block getting bitten, kicked and hit at the same time to you are trying to prevent other kids from being attacked. You can’t physically restrain the out of control child like you could your own son or daughter. You really can’t touch the out of control child either. How do you prevent the child from obtaining heavy objects when the room is literally full of heavy objects. So the kid picks up a chair and you grab the chair, then get kicked in the shins at the same time and try not to fall over or get kicked again or stomped on. Meanwhile the kid rushes away from you and grabs a stapler and chucks it. Or a water bottle or heavy book. Or a pencil and tries to poke another kid.

It’s ridiculous you think it is so easy and keep denying teachers and staff members are being seriously assaulted all over the country by elementary aged students.

Very creative. But again, we're talking about a kindergartener. An adult assigned to a child should be able to prevent that child from obtaining and throwing an object like a water bottle. And a good paraeducator would be able to guide the child to calming strategies before a situation escalates to that level. That's literally the job.

You never answered the question how the adult prevents the child from obtaining an object. You can't restrain the child in any way, so don't include that in your answer. Teachers have been seriously injured by kindergarten and first grade students. you magically think someone getting paid $18 an hour is a kindergarten whisperer who is going to calm the student down when no one else can? You have very obviously never seen a raging out of control student and/or you are an administrator who does an awful job or parent who thinks your child can do no wrong.

This is the type of gaslighting from administrators and parents of out of control kids that make special education teachers and general education teachers quit
Administrators who tell teachers-
if you only build a relationship with the kid, he or she wouldn't have bashed you in the head with a water bottle, so the 8 staples in your head is basically your fault.
Oh it's just a kindergarten student, they don't kick that hard or bite that deeply.
What did you do to make the student so upset? You should let him have whatever he wants.
Why aren't you calming the student down, you should be able to do that before the student escalates
Why aren't you providing the student with rewards (of course they are never provided by the school, the teacher has to spend his or her own money)?

Really?

You grab it before they do. Or take it away from them before they throw it.

It's time for you to retire.

SCES is always accepting volunteers. That classroom cannot keep a teacher, sub or para because of this kid. He has injured almost a dozen students and adults combined this school year. One of those adults being the principal so please stop by tomorrow to
Volunteer your time with him because we refuse to now. Because apparently you have all the answers to every problem surrounding children.