Pissed that I have to do remedial counselling with an employee who was reprimanded for harassing me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well there’s a lot to unpack here, but even once you turn 40 you will not have an age discrimination claim, OP, because you are the YOUNGER employee.

OP here. This is wild to me. If the roles were reversed and I was complaining to anyone who would listen (as she does), that she's too old for the position she would be able to file a civil rights complaint immediately.

[Anonymous]

Fed here. What are your workplace harassment policies? We have protected classes of course and specific rules related to that, but we also have anti-harassment training and policies. If you feel this is harassment looking into those is worthwhile.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why can’t you file a harassment complaint against her? It sounds like your agency does not have conduct guidelines and professional behavior requirements?

Btw being 34 is irrelevant. Age is a protected class under the civil rights act, meaning any time someone uses age in a discriminatory manner at work it is a violation of the civil rights act. This is no different than using anyone’s race as a reason for employment decision is illegal. Not sure what she’s doing would rise to discrimination though. The OWBPA gave specific layoff protections to workers over 40 but did not override that discrimination by any age is illegal.

This is all completely false. I’m a civil rights lawyer.

Lol. No you’re not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well there’s a lot to unpack here, but even once you turn 40 you will not have an age discrimination claim, OP, because you are the YOUNGER employee.

OP here. This is wild to me. If the roles were reversed and I was complaining to anyone who would listen (as she does), that she's too old for the position she would be able to file a civil rights complaint immediately.

Well it’s wrong so don’t worry about that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you think she can’t be fired?!? frankly I’m sick of managers not firing people like this and just passing the buck. Not only is she not doing her work, but I see insubordination too.

In her performance write up, make the tasks she has to perform very quantifiable. “Produces x amount of reports a week” and when she doesn’t, put her on a PIP. My HR is incredibly helpful and supportive of PIPs. After 30 or 45 days of she’s still not working, it’s immediate firing. Who cares about the union? The union supports PIPs.

OP here. She is on step 2 of 6 of progressive discipline. There's so many more hoops to jump through to get her fired. It's doable, but since she's in the "improvement period" after an oral reprimand I need to give her the opportunity to improve first.

Then you need to do so. She can be fired and if she continues down the current path, she will be.

I get that the situation sucks, but it is the situation. And while I agree that all the communication manager/psychological safety stuff is bunk, if you put your best foot forward then the burden shifts to her to show improvement.

I would object to talking to her in person versus email on the grounds that at this stage every interaction needs to be clear and documented. I'd invite the communication manager to be present for all in-person interactions to insure clarity and psychological safety for the employee being counseled.

You are being given tools to allow this person to build an ironclad case against themselves. Use them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you think she can’t be fired?!? frankly I’m sick of managers not firing people like this and just passing the buck. Not only is she not doing her work, but I see insubordination too.

In her performance write up, make the tasks she has to perform very quantifiable. “Produces x amount of reports a week” and when she doesn’t, put her on a PIP. My HR is incredibly helpful and supportive of PIPs. After 30 or 45 days of she’s still not working, it’s immediate firing. Who cares about the union? The union supports PIPs.

OP here. She is on step 2 of 6 of progressive discipline. There's so many more hoops to jump through to get her fired. It's doable, but since she's in the "improvement period" after an oral reprimand I need to give her the opportunity to improve first.

Then you need to do so. She can be fired and if she continues down the current path, she will be.

I get that the situation sucks, but it is the situation. And while I agree that all the communication manager/psychological safety stuff is bunk, if you put your best foot forward then the burden shifts to her to show improvement.

I would object to talking to her in person versus email on the grounds that at this stage every interaction needs to be clear and documented. I'd invite the communication manager to be present for all in-person interactions to insure clarity and psychological safety for the employee being counseled.

You are being given tools to allow this person to build an ironclad case against themselves. Use them.

OP here. This is solid advice, thank you. I appreciate it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you think she can’t be fired?!? frankly I’m sick of managers not firing people like this and just passing the buck. Not only is she not doing her work, but I see insubordination too.

In her performance write up, make the tasks she has to perform very quantifiable. “Produces x amount of reports a week” and when she doesn’t, put her on a PIP. My HR is incredibly helpful and supportive of PIPs. After 30 or 45 days of she’s still not working, it’s immediate firing. Who cares about the union? The union supports PIPs.

OP here. She is on step 2 of 6 of progressive discipline. There's so many more hoops to jump through to get her fired. It's doable, but since she's in the "improvement period" after an oral reprimand I need to give her the opportunity to improve first.

Then you need to do so. She can be fired and if she continues down the current path, she will be.

I get that the situation sucks, but it is the situation. And while I agree that all the communication manager/psychological safety stuff is bunk, if you put your best foot forward then the burden shifts to her to show improvement.

I would object to talking to her in person versus email on the grounds that at this stage every interaction needs to be clear and documented. I'd invite the communication manager to be present for all in-person interactions to insure clarity and psychological safety for the employee being counseled.

You are being given tools to allow this person to build an ironclad case against themselves. Use them.

OP here. This is solid advice, thank you. I appreciate it.

this whole thread is enraging. I can't believe we piss away tax dollars like this. These people should be fired immediately.

[Anonymous]

I would be extremely wary of the “psychological safety” coaching and the advice to communicate verbally. I’d talk with the coach about how you feel the need to ensure there are no misunderstandings and so you’d like to use email. If the coach pushes back against that, I’d keep the verbal discussions to a minimum and keep written notes about exactly how the conversations go.

I would NOT be comfortable with this kind of coaching - it gives this crazy lady even more opportunity to be crazy. Kind of like how couples counseling is not recommended for abusive spouses.

Finding a new job ASAP is truly the only reasonable thing to do here, I’m afraid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would be extremely wary of the “psychological safety” coaching and the advice to communicate verbally. I’d talk with the coach about how you feel the need to ensure there are no misunderstandings and so you’d like to use email. If the coach pushes back against that, I’d keep the verbal discussions to a minimum and keep written notes about exactly how the conversations go.

I would NOT be comfortable with this kind of coaching - it gives this crazy lady even more opportunity to be crazy. Kind of like how couples counseling is not recommended for abusive spouses.

Finding a new job ASAP is truly the only reasonable thing to do here, I’m afraid.

Yea, this is wildly inappropriate for an employee with performance issues. People learn and absorb things differently so I do think it’s a good idea to communicate requests to low performing employees verbally so they can ask questions. But then you ALWAYS follow up with an email so it’s crystal clear. Why is that not an option here? The follow up email doesn’t just serve as documentation - it’s a reference for the employee while they complete their tasks.

And if this person truly is suffering from mental health issues, you focus on reality. Which would be verbal and written communication.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you think she can’t be fired?!? frankly I’m sick of managers not firing people like this and just passing the buck. Not only is she not doing her work, but I see insubordination too.

In her performance write up, make the tasks she has to perform very quantifiable. “Produces x amount of reports a week” and when she doesn’t, put her on a PIP. My HR is incredibly helpful and supportive of PIPs. After 30 or 45 days of she’s still not working, it’s immediate firing. Who cares about the union? The union supports PIPs.

OP here. She is on step 2 of 6 of progressive discipline. There's so many more hoops to jump through to get her fired. It's doable, but since she's in the "improvement period" after an oral reprimand I need to give her the opportunity to improve first.

I have dealt with this. You go through the steps. It takes about two years for someone to be fired or they leave. It's very good that she's already in the progressive discipline process. You also have to go through the process that HR asks you to do, like trying to improve communication. Just do it, but document every conversation and encounter and have witnesses if possible. They need to do this to avoid lawsuits or to win one if they are sued. People sue all the time but don't necessarily win. She will bring up new problems, new issues, deflect and obfuscate; just stay on course. She is not redeemable. (I had someone who brought up wanting physical accommodations for repetitive motion injury that derailed a disciplinary conversion. We had to address that, then go back to it all.) Oftentimes, people quit as the disciplinary process goes further. Or your organization may need to find somewhere for her to go to finish up her career. You "contain" these people and allow them fewer opportunities to disrupt the workplace. Believe it or not, this is good experience for you to deal with this. You will probably encounter other similar situations in the future and you will learn from it. Unfortunately, it's the bad part of managing people. There are good parts too. I hope you have HR and management's support.

[Anonymous]

OP, I have to ask: does anyone in your leadership chain have concerns about your supervisory and/or communication style?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I have to ask: does anyone in your leadership chain have concerns about your supervisory and/or communication style?

OP here. I checked in with my supervisor about this last week after the first counseling session.

She said no, she feels my leadership style is great. I am very direct with my staff and put most questions or concerns in writing. I minimize meetings, I have monthly/mandatory 1:1's with all my staff and one unit meeting per month. All of my staff have passed the probation period and are independent workers. I don't micromanage or spend a lot of time chit-chatting or doing unnecessary social stuff.

The issue is that is what my problem staff is asking for. She is requesting more validation and acknowledgment of her experiences and education, she wants a relationship with "shared power and values" according to the communication coach. This is why she wants me to call her directly so she can chit-chat and feel psychologically safe. My supervisor doesn't like this suggestion because she wants the problem employee gone and a paper trail of all communication; she's attending all 1:1's with the employee too.

I told my supervisor I had concerns about the feedback from the communication coach. She is concerned too but said there's nothing we can do about it since the agency director asked me to do it. I'm wondering if it's because the employee filed an internal grievance and despite that it was unfounded, my agency director is trying to show they addressed my direct report concerns about my management style and (if there is future problems) it's on her, not me.

It just feels like mind games at this point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you think she can’t be fired?!? frankly I’m sick of managers not firing people like this and just passing the buck. Not only is she not doing her work, but I see insubordination too.

In her performance write up, make the tasks she has to perform very quantifiable. “Produces x amount of reports a week” and when she doesn’t, put her on a PIP. My HR is incredibly helpful and supportive of PIPs. After 30 or 45 days of she’s still not working, it’s immediate firing. Who cares about the union? The union supports PIPs.

OP here. She is on step 2 of 6 of progressive discipline. There's so many more hoops to jump through to get her fired. It's doable, but since she's in the "improvement period" after an oral reprimand I need to give her the opportunity to improve first.

What awful agency is this that has 6 steps? Mine isn’t like this thankfully.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s easy to see why she dislikes you.

To be honest, I couldn't care less if she likes me or not. She was not managing her workload and refused to do work tasks when asked by myself, our program, and the agency director. She requested a transfer to another supervisor and withdrew her request after her reprimand and her complaint against me was unfounded.

I must be an idiot because I can't understand for the life of me why she would want to stay on my team. She has outright said to me she does not like my direct supervisor either. It's not a good fit for all of us. The counseling feels like emotional enmeshment, I'm being asked to "share my favorite quote" with her (?!). I don't want any kind of relationship with this woman.

"Lead, follow or get out of the way."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s easy to see why she dislikes you.

To be honest, I couldn't care less if she likes me or not. She was not managing her workload and refused to do work tasks when asked by myself, our program, and the agency director. She requested a transfer to another supervisor and withdrew her request after her reprimand and her complaint against me was unfounded.

I must be an idiot because I can't understand for the life of me why she would want to stay on my team. She has outright said to me she does not like my direct supervisor either. It's not a good fit for all of us. The counseling feels like emotional enmeshment, I'm being asked to "share my favorite quote" with her (?!). I don't want any kind of relationship with this woman.

"Lead, follow or get out of the way."

“Get your $hit done and STFU.”