student admissions and TJ lawsuit

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perception is not always reality. I am not worried if my comments falls flat for the people in this thread who argue that anything that decreases the number of Asians at TJ as racist because there is nothing that can be done that will be seen as fair to those folks. Short of returning to the old system that is systemically unfair to kids who do not have the money or knowledge or ability (having to care for siblings/work/do something for the family) to attend STEM extras or take extra math or take Prep classes, nothing will make that particular crowd happy. Everything that changes the old system is, by de fault, racist. There is no conversation to be had.

Adjusting the seats so that there is a guarantee that kids meeting basic requirements that can be achieved in all Middle Schools in FCPS will be able to earn a seat at TJ is not racist. Any person or any race can take honors classes and Algebra and maintain a specific GPA. You can argue that it is not rigorous enough to attend TJ and we can disagree on that but it is a baseline criteria that everyone has an opportunity to achieve, regardless of race, ethnicity, or economic status.

The geographic guarantee means that there will be fewer at will seats for kids at the traditional feeder schools because there are now students from all MS accepted at TJ and accepting the offer to attend TJ.

The idea that most Asian students interested in TJ attend the AAP Centers for MS means that fewer Asian students will be selected for TJ. The fact that most of the Black and Hispanic kids that were selected for TJ this year are at non AAP Center schools and are at MS that have not has as many kids selected using the old criteria.

People who are so interested in TJ can choose to send their kids to their base MS and not the Center. That doesn't guarantee anything because we are discussing 7-12 seats per year and the extra qualifiers probably come into play when there are multiple people who fall into that top 1.5% and that will decrease the chance of an Asian or White candidate at those schools.

You can argue that TJ selection criteria should be different but plenty of people feel differently. Not every kid has access to STEM extra curricular activities or supplemental math classes so that they are taking Algebra in 6th grade, heck not every school allows Algebra in 6th grade. My kids ES does not discuss Algebra in 6th grade and we are an UMC school and it is not a possibility. Not every kid is taking prep classes or doing prep books for the NNAT or CogAT or the TJ tests. While some think that the fact that parents, and some kids, are pursuing those options for their kids and the kids excel in them is an indication how much more deserving those kids are of attending TJ, many people don't agree. And that disagreement, at least for me, has nothing to do with race and everything to do with reasonable access requirements for a public resource in the form of TJ.

My kid is white, UMC and will be attending Rachel Carson because it his base school. He is also in AAP so would have the change of attending one of the Centers if Carson wasn't his base. These changes are likely to diminish his chances of attending TJ. I am fine with that. I don't know if he is going to be interested in TJ when that time comes. I also know that he will have excellent opportunities at his base HS.

Two wrongs don't make a right. The TJ situation before last year was not right. The "fix" was not right either. And here we are.

I don't have a solution but to me clearly the school board and Braband did not have to rush it (especially in the middle of the Pandemic when schools were dealing with unprecedented issues). Where does the solution lie? Perhaps in more inclusive consultation and less of "us and them". Less of the moral police speaking down to the impacted folks. The eventual outcome will not please all but at least everyone would feel like they had a say in the design.

UVA is inclusive and diverse and they make sure that they do not fill up the class with high-stats/well resourced NoVA kids. How did they do that? There has been very little theater and chest-thumping from the UVA administration (unlike our School Board) and everyone seems ok?

I understand that UVA and FCPS are different but that is why we need leadership on the School Board to deal with seemingly intractable problems and not pork barrel politicians with pet issues.

UVA and pretty much every major university accomplishes this goal in large part through soft geographic quotas. They have a soft cap on the number of students that they'll take from Northern Virginia and Virginia as a whole. They go out and find outstandingly qualified students from different parts of the country, and they ensure that what they're looking for includes diverse skill sets and interests, which by nature is going to result in a more diverse population.

So.... there's that.

And that is exactly the point. Done without the Drama. Nobody feels wronged. And no chest-thumping politicians claiming credit for the equity revolution of the century. This could have been done at FCPS. Less drama, more consultation - some well thought through investments in the Carson, Longfellow clusters to assuage those that would be impacted. And a couple of years for change to play out at a pace that everyone could absorb.

Unfortunately, the need for political headlines came before everything. Now we have a messed-up divided community, a pyrrhic victory for the Dems and a school board expending resources fighting the Governor. This could have been different if there was wisdom and foresight on the part of the school board. Alas..

[Anonymous]

No one feels wronged? Who are you kidding? Asian families have been complaining, and suing, about geographic quotas and diversity issues for a while now. Anything that is done to increase another groups access is seen as an attack on the Asian population which is over represented in every educational environment, by a large percentage over represented.

This started a long time ago at Universities and there has been complaints, law suits, and other attempts to reverse policies at Universities because attempts at diversifying the Universities population has led to a decline in Asian and White attendees.

There is no timeline or way to shift who attends TJ that would not lead to the Asian community being upset. In the minds of many of the change at TJ is bad crowd, anything short of a test and giving kids extra credit for starting Algebra in 5th or 6th grade is racist. The system that placed heavy reliance on a test and acceleration in school, which benefits families and cultures what are willing to treat anything that they grind their way ahead in, led student population that does not reflect FCPS in any way, not in terms of socio economics, race, ethnicity, or any demographic measure you could come up with. It is easy to argue "The test because it is based on merit!" while ignoring the prep classes. Or "But they are advanced in math" ignoring the money spent in supplementation programs (AoPS, RSM, prep school classes) that allowed their kids into more advanced classes at a far younger age. Or "But they did all these math competitions/STEM activities" ignoring the fact not everyone can afford the competition math route or pay for robotics.

My kid does RSM and math competitions. He loves it. Both are pricey and require a time commitment and a travel commitment. Many families cannot afford the money for these activities or have the easy transportation to the locations for these activities or have the time to be able to take their ES kid to these activities. I get that which is why I don't have a problem with setting the standards for TJ based on what every kid has access to at their school. Even with that, there are fewer Black and Hispanic kids in AAP, which is the track for taking Algebra in MS. This means that are at a disadvantage in order to be able to meet the more basic requirements. But at least they are all accessible at FCPS schools and not something that people who have the money/knowledge/time have a decided step up on.

If DS wants to go to TJ and does not get accepted, he will be fine at his HS. He enjoys his math class and math competitions. Just like there are kids who play sports all the way through MS and are cut from the HS team, there are kids who put in the work to apply to TJ and they are not admitted. It is a part of life. If they really enjoyed the STEM, math, sports on the way, then they have all the positives of having enjoyed that activity even if they don't attend TJ or make the team.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No one feels wronged? Who are you kidding? Asian families have been complaining, and suing, about geographic quotas and diversity issues for a while now. Anything that is done to increase another groups access is seen as an attack on the Asian population which is over represented in every educational environment, by a large percentage over represented.

This started a long time ago at Universities and there has been complaints, law suits, and other attempts to reverse policies at Universities because attempts at diversifying the Universities population has led to a decline in Asian and White attendees.

There is no timeline or way to shift who attends TJ that would not lead to the Asian community being upset. In the minds of many of the change at TJ is bad crowd, anything short of a test and giving kids extra credit for starting Algebra in 5th or 6th grade is racist. The system that placed heavy reliance on a test and acceleration in school, which benefits families and cultures what are willing to treat anything that they grind their way ahead in, led student population that does not reflect FCPS in any way, not in terms of socio economics, race, ethnicity, or any demographic measure you could come up with. It is easy to argue "The test because it is based on merit!" while ignoring the prep classes. Or "But they are advanced in math" ignoring the money spent in supplementation programs (AoPS, RSM, prep school classes) that allowed their kids into more advanced classes at a far younger age. Or "But they did all these math competitions/STEM activities" ignoring the fact not everyone can afford the competition math route or pay for robotics.

My kid does RSM and math competitions. He loves it. Both are pricey and require a time commitment and a travel commitment. Many families cannot afford the money for these activities or have the easy transportation to the locations for these activities or have the time to be able to take their ES kid to these activities. I get that which is why I don't have a problem with setting the standards for TJ based on what every kid has access to at their school. Even with that, there are fewer Black and Hispanic kids in AAP, which is the track for taking Algebra in MS. This means that are at a disadvantage in order to be able to meet the more basic requirements. But at least they are all accessible at FCPS schools and not something that people who have the money/knowledge/time have a decided step up on.

If DS wants to go to TJ and does not get accepted, he will be fine at his HS. He enjoys his math class and math competitions. Just like there are kids who play sports all the way through MS and are cut from the HS team, there are kids who put in the work to apply to TJ and they are not admitted. It is a part of life. If they really enjoyed the STEM, math, sports on the way, then they have all the positives of having enjoyed that activity even if they don't attend TJ or make the team.

You keep bringing your kid into this. Best wishes to you and your kid. But your microcosm does not define the community. If you cannot empathize with others' situation and their pain because you believe your logic outweighs others' logic then you are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Let everyone take-off their gloves and have a fistfight. The Dems scored first - and then may be the Governor will score or the Courts will rule against them. And the cycle will repeat. And we will be a broken community. Whatever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Perception is not always reality. I am not worried if my comments falls flat for the people in this thread who argue that anything that decreases the number of Asians at TJ as racist because there is nothing that can be done that will be seen as fair to those folks. Short of returning to the old system that is systemically unfair to kids who do not have the money or knowledge or ability (having to care for siblings/work/do something for the family) to attend STEM extras or take extra math or take Prep classes, nothing will make that particular crowd happy. Everything that changes the old system is, by de fault, racist. There is no conversation to be had.

Adjusting the seats so that there is a guarantee that kids meeting basic requirements that can be achieved in all Middle Schools in FCPS will be able to earn a seat at TJ is not racist. Any person or any race can take honors classes and Algebra and maintain a specific GPA. You can argue that it is not rigorous enough to attend TJ and we can disagree on that but it is a baseline criteria that everyone has an opportunity to achieve, regardless of race, ethnicity, or economic status.

The geographic guarantee means that there will be fewer at will seats for kids at the traditional feeder schools because there are now students from all MS accepted at TJ and accepting the offer to attend TJ.

The idea that most Asian students interested in TJ attend the AAP Centers for MS means that fewer Asian students will be selected for TJ. The fact that most of the Black and Hispanic kids that were selected for TJ this year are at non AAP Center schools and are at MS that have not has as many kids selected using the old criteria.

People who are so interested in TJ can choose to send their kids to their base MS and not the Center. That doesn't guarantee anything because we are discussing 7-12 seats per year and the extra qualifiers probably come into play when there are multiple people who fall into that top 1.5% and that will decrease the chance of an Asian or White candidate at those schools.

You can argue that TJ selection criteria should be different but plenty of people feel differently. Not every kid has access to STEM extra curricular activities or supplemental math classes so that they are taking Algebra in 6th grade, heck not every school allows Algebra in 6th grade. My kids ES does not discuss Algebra in 6th grade and we are an UMC school and it is not a possibility. Not every kid is taking prep classes or doing prep books for the NNAT or CogAT or the TJ tests. While some think that the fact that parents, and some kids, are pursuing those options for their kids and the kids excel in them is an indication how much more deserving those kids are of attending TJ, many people don't agree. And that disagreement, at least for me, has nothing to do with race and everything to do with reasonable access requirements for a public resource in the form of TJ.

My kid is white, UMC and will be attending Rachel Carson because it his base school. He is also in AAP so would have the change of attending one of the Centers if Carson wasn't his base. These changes are likely to diminish his chances of attending TJ. I am fine with that. I don't know if he is going to be interested in TJ when that time comes. I also know that he will have excellent opportunities at his base HS.

Two wrongs don't make a right. The TJ situation before last year was not right. The "fix" was not right either. And here we are.

I don't have a solution but to me clearly the school board and Braband did not have to rush it (especially in the middle of the Pandemic when schools were dealing with unprecedented issues). Where does the solution lie? Perhaps in more inclusive consultation and less of "us and them". Less of the moral police speaking down to the impacted folks. The eventual outcome will not please all but at least everyone would feel like they had a say in the design.

UVA is inclusive and diverse and they make sure that they do not fill up the class with high-stats/well resourced NoVA kids. How did they do that? There has been very little theater and chest-thumping from the UVA administration (unlike our School Board) and everyone seems ok?

I understand that UVA and FCPS are different but that is why we need leadership on the School Board to deal with seemingly intractable problems and not pork barrel politicians with pet issues.

UVA and pretty much every major university accomplishes this goal in large part through soft geographic quotas. They have a soft cap on the number of students that they'll take from Northern Virginia and Virginia as a whole. They go out and find outstandingly qualified students from different parts of the country, and they ensure that what they're looking for includes diverse skill sets and interests, which by nature is going to result in a more diverse population.

So.... there's that.

And that is exactly the point. Done without the Drama. Nobody feels wronged. And no chest-thumping politicians claiming credit for the equity revolution of the century. This could have been done at FCPS. Less drama, more consultation - some well thought through investments in the Carson, Longfellow clusters to assuage those that would be impacted. And a couple of years for change to play out at a pace that everyone could absorb.

Unfortunately, the need for political headlines came before everything. Now we have a messed-up divided community, a pyrrhic victory for the Dems and a school board expending resources fighting the Governor. This could have been different if there was wisdom and foresight on the part of the school board. Alas..

FCPS would have happily done this very quietly if it weren't for the demands of the previous-status-quo public for hearing upon hearing upon public forum upon community input session upon freaking lawsuit.

The DRAMA that you are referencing came from the Coalition 4 TJ doing insane things like holding a rally that literally spilled on to Braddock Road at the entrance of the school, picketing the Gatehouse facility, grabbing media spots on Fox News and WMAL, and authoring a candlelight vigil mourning the "death of TJ". Nothing that the pro-reform groups or the School Board did remotely approached this level of media whoredom and attention-seeking. No one in this process on that side promoted themselves on any level like Nomani, Jackson, Dutta, and Miller.

If you want to talk about drama, start with the folks on that side.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one feels wronged? Who are you kidding? Asian families have been complaining, and suing, about geographic quotas and diversity issues for a while now. Anything that is done to increase another groups access is seen as an attack on the Asian population which is over represented in every educational environment, by a large percentage over represented.

This started a long time ago at Universities and there has been complaints, law suits, and other attempts to reverse policies at Universities because attempts at diversifying the Universities population has led to a decline in Asian and White attendees.

There is no timeline or way to shift who attends TJ that would not lead to the Asian community being upset. In the minds of many of the change at TJ is bad crowd, anything short of a test and giving kids extra credit for starting Algebra in 5th or 6th grade is racist. The system that placed heavy reliance on a test and acceleration in school, which benefits families and cultures what are willing to treat anything that they grind their way ahead in, led student population that does not reflect FCPS in any way, not in terms of socio economics, race, ethnicity, or any demographic measure you could come up with. It is easy to argue "The test because it is based on merit!" while ignoring the prep classes. Or "But they are advanced in math" ignoring the money spent in supplementation programs (AoPS, RSM, prep school classes) that allowed their kids into more advanced classes at a far younger age. Or "But they did all these math competitions/STEM activities" ignoring the fact not everyone can afford the competition math route or pay for robotics.

My kid does RSM and math competitions. He loves it. Both are pricey and require a time commitment and a travel commitment. Many families cannot afford the money for these activities or have the easy transportation to the locations for these activities or have the time to be able to take their ES kid to these activities. I get that which is why I don't have a problem with setting the standards for TJ based on what every kid has access to at their school. Even with that, there are fewer Black and Hispanic kids in AAP, which is the track for taking Algebra in MS. This means that are at a disadvantage in order to be able to meet the more basic requirements. But at least they are all accessible at FCPS schools and not something that people who have the money/knowledge/time have a decided step up on.

If DS wants to go to TJ and does not get accepted, he will be fine at his HS. He enjoys his math class and math competitions. Just like there are kids who play sports all the way through MS and are cut from the HS team, there are kids who put in the work to apply to TJ and they are not admitted. It is a part of life. If they really enjoyed the STEM, math, sports on the way, then they have all the positives of having enjoyed that activity even if they don't attend TJ or make the team.

You keep bringing your kid into this. Best wishes to you and your kid. But your microcosm does not define the community. If you cannot empathize with others' situation and their pain because you believe your logic outweighs others' logic then you are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Let everyone take-off their gloves and have a fistfight. The Dems scored first - and then may be the Governor will score or the Courts will rule against them. And the cycle will repeat. And we will be a broken community. Whatever.

DP. You're crying crocodile tears because the "pain" that you speak of is having a slightly reduced chance of attending a free selective public high school that you have dominated for a decade. When you compare that to the pain that some of these other communities experience on a daily basis, you shouldn't be shocked that you are called out for being tone-deaf.

YOU are making TJ a bigger deal than it is or should be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one feels wronged? Who are you kidding? Asian families have been complaining, and suing, about geographic quotas and diversity issues for a while now. Anything that is done to increase another groups access is seen as an attack on the Asian population which is over represented in every educational environment, by a large percentage over represented.

This started a long time ago at Universities and there has been complaints, law suits, and other attempts to reverse policies at Universities because attempts at diversifying the Universities population has led to a decline in Asian and White attendees.

There is no timeline or way to shift who attends TJ that would not lead to the Asian community being upset. In the minds of many of the change at TJ is bad crowd, anything short of a test and giving kids extra credit for starting Algebra in 5th or 6th grade is racist. The system that placed heavy reliance on a test and acceleration in school, which benefits families and cultures what are willing to treat anything that they grind their way ahead in, led student population that does not reflect FCPS in any way, not in terms of socio economics, race, ethnicity, or any demographic measure you could come up with. It is easy to argue "The test because it is based on merit!" while ignoring the prep classes. Or "But they are advanced in math" ignoring the money spent in supplementation programs (AoPS, RSM, prep school classes) that allowed their kids into more advanced classes at a far younger age. Or "But they did all these math competitions/STEM activities" ignoring the fact not everyone can afford the competition math route or pay for robotics.

My kid does RSM and math competitions. He loves it. Both are pricey and require a time commitment and a travel commitment. Many families cannot afford the money for these activities or have the easy transportation to the locations for these activities or have the time to be able to take their ES kid to these activities. I get that which is why I don't have a problem with setting the standards for TJ based on what every kid has access to at their school. Even with that, there are fewer Black and Hispanic kids in AAP, which is the track for taking Algebra in MS. This means that are at a disadvantage in order to be able to meet the more basic requirements. But at least they are all accessible at FCPS schools and not something that people who have the money/knowledge/time have a decided step up on.

If DS wants to go to TJ and does not get accepted, he will be fine at his HS. He enjoys his math class and math competitions. Just like there are kids who play sports all the way through MS and are cut from the HS team, there are kids who put in the work to apply to TJ and they are not admitted. It is a part of life. If they really enjoyed the STEM, math, sports on the way, then they have all the positives of having enjoyed that activity even if they don't attend TJ or make the team.

You keep bringing your kid into this. Best wishes to you and your kid. But your microcosm does not define the community. If you cannot empathize with others' situation and their pain because you believe your logic outweighs others' logic then you are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Let everyone take-off their gloves and have a fistfight. The Dems scored first - and then may be the Governor will score or the Courts will rule against them. And the cycle will repeat. And we will be a broken community. Whatever.

DP. You're crying crocodile tears because the "pain" that you speak of is having a slightly reduced chance of attending a free selective public high school that you have dominated for a decade. When you compare that to the pain that some of these other communities experience on a daily basis, you shouldn't be shocked that you are called out for being tone-deaf.

YOU are making TJ a bigger deal than it is or should be.

You exemplify the attitude that has brought us to this juncture. It is always about me and never about the "others". Nobody is denying that the previous process had to be fixed. Somewhere along the way the "testing is broken" became an issue of "reduce the number of dominating Asians". Equity at the cost of community discord is not worth it especially when other avenues are available to get to an equitable outcome. If Nelson Mandela could do it in far larger scale, we can all look beyond our noses.

And it starts by not calling others names.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one feels wronged? Who are you kidding? Asian families have been complaining, and suing, about geographic quotas and diversity issues for a while now. Anything that is done to increase another groups access is seen as an attack on the Asian population which is over represented in every educational environment, by a large percentage over represented.

This started a long time ago at Universities and there has been complaints, law suits, and other attempts to reverse policies at Universities because attempts at diversifying the Universities population has led to a decline in Asian and White attendees.

There is no timeline or way to shift who attends TJ that would not lead to the Asian community being upset. In the minds of many of the change at TJ is bad crowd, anything short of a test and giving kids extra credit for starting Algebra in 5th or 6th grade is racist. The system that placed heavy reliance on a test and acceleration in school, which benefits families and cultures what are willing to treat anything that they grind their way ahead in, led student population that does not reflect FCPS in any way, not in terms of socio economics, race, ethnicity, or any demographic measure you could come up with. It is easy to argue "The test because it is based on merit!" while ignoring the prep classes. Or "But they are advanced in math" ignoring the money spent in supplementation programs (AoPS, RSM, prep school classes) that allowed their kids into more advanced classes at a far younger age. Or "But they did all these math competitions/STEM activities" ignoring the fact not everyone can afford the competition math route or pay for robotics.

My kid does RSM and math competitions. He loves it. Both are pricey and require a time commitment and a travel commitment. Many families cannot afford the money for these activities or have the easy transportation to the locations for these activities or have the time to be able to take their ES kid to these activities. I get that which is why I don't have a problem with setting the standards for TJ based on what every kid has access to at their school. Even with that, there are fewer Black and Hispanic kids in AAP, which is the track for taking Algebra in MS. This means that are at a disadvantage in order to be able to meet the more basic requirements. But at least they are all accessible at FCPS schools and not something that people who have the money/knowledge/time have a decided step up on.

If DS wants to go to TJ and does not get accepted, he will be fine at his HS. He enjoys his math class and math competitions. Just like there are kids who play sports all the way through MS and are cut from the HS team, there are kids who put in the work to apply to TJ and they are not admitted. It is a part of life. If they really enjoyed the STEM, math, sports on the way, then they have all the positives of having enjoyed that activity even if they don't attend TJ or make the team.

You keep bringing your kid into this. Best wishes to you and your kid. But your microcosm does not define the community. If you cannot empathize with others' situation and their pain because you believe your logic outweighs others' logic then you are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Let everyone take-off their gloves and have a fistfight. The Dems scored first - and then may be the Governor will score or the Courts will rule against them. And the cycle will repeat. And we will be a broken community. Whatever.

DP. You're crying crocodile tears because the "pain" that you speak of is having a slightly reduced chance of attending a free selective public high school that you have dominated for a decade. When you compare that to the pain that some of these other communities experience on a daily basis, you shouldn't be shocked that you are called out for being tone-deaf.

YOU are making TJ a bigger deal than it is or should be.

Please..stop trying to take the moral high ground. Do the work! We understand the pain that "some of these other communities experience on a daily basis". Way better than you - for obvious reasons. So let us do the hard work on solving those problems. Don't assuage your guilt by attacking other minorities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one feels wronged? Who are you kidding? Asian families have been complaining, and suing, about geographic quotas and diversity issues for a while now. Anything that is done to increase another groups access is seen as an attack on the Asian population which is over represented in every educational environment, by a large percentage over represented.

This started a long time ago at Universities and there has been complaints, law suits, and other attempts to reverse policies at Universities because attempts at diversifying the Universities population has led to a decline in Asian and White attendees.

There is no timeline or way to shift who attends TJ that would not lead to the Asian community being upset. In the minds of many of the change at TJ is bad crowd, anything short of a test and giving kids extra credit for starting Algebra in 5th or 6th grade is racist. The system that placed heavy reliance on a test and acceleration in school, which benefits families and cultures what are willing to treat anything that they grind their way ahead in, led student population that does not reflect FCPS in any way, not in terms of socio economics, race, ethnicity, or any demographic measure you could come up with. It is easy to argue "The test because it is based on merit!" while ignoring the prep classes. Or "But they are advanced in math" ignoring the money spent in supplementation programs (AoPS, RSM, prep school classes) that allowed their kids into more advanced classes at a far younger age. Or "But they did all these math competitions/STEM activities" ignoring the fact not everyone can afford the competition math route or pay for robotics.

My kid does RSM and math competitions. He loves it. Both are pricey and require a time commitment and a travel commitment. Many families cannot afford the money for these activities or have the easy transportation to the locations for these activities or have the time to be able to take their ES kid to these activities. I get that which is why I don't have a problem with setting the standards for TJ based on what every kid has access to at their school. Even with that, there are fewer Black and Hispanic kids in AAP, which is the track for taking Algebra in MS. This means that are at a disadvantage in order to be able to meet the more basic requirements. But at least they are all accessible at FCPS schools and not something that people who have the money/knowledge/time have a decided step up on.

If DS wants to go to TJ and does not get accepted, he will be fine at his HS. He enjoys his math class and math competitions. Just like there are kids who play sports all the way through MS and are cut from the HS team, there are kids who put in the work to apply to TJ and they are not admitted. It is a part of life. If they really enjoyed the STEM, math, sports on the way, then they have all the positives of having enjoyed that activity even if they don't attend TJ or make the team.

You keep bringing your kid into this. Best wishes to you and your kid. But your microcosm does not define the community. If you cannot empathize with others' situation and their pain because you believe your logic outweighs others' logic then you are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Let everyone take-off their gloves and have a fistfight. The Dems scored first - and then may be the Governor will score or the Courts will rule against them. And the cycle will repeat. And we will be a broken community. Whatever.

DP. You're crying crocodile tears because the "pain" that you speak of is having a slightly reduced chance of attending a free selective public high school that you have dominated for a decade. When you compare that to the pain that some of these other communities experience on a daily basis, you shouldn't be shocked that you are called out for being tone-deaf.

YOU are making TJ a bigger deal than it is or should be.

You exemplify the attitude that has brought us to this juncture. It is always about me and never about the "others". Nobody is denying that the previous process had to be fixed. Somewhere along the way the "testing is broken" became an issue of "reduce the number of dominating Asians". Equity at the cost of community discord is not worth it especially when other avenues are available to get to an equitable outcome. If Nelson Mandela could do it in far larger scale, we can all look beyond our noses.

And it starts by not calling others names.

So true!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one feels wronged? Who are you kidding? Asian families have been complaining, and suing, about geographic quotas and diversity issues for a while now. Anything that is done to increase another groups access is seen as an attack on the Asian population which is over represented in every educational environment, by a large percentage over represented.

This started a long time ago at Universities and there has been complaints, law suits, and other attempts to reverse policies at Universities because attempts at diversifying the Universities population has led to a decline in Asian and White attendees.

There is no timeline or way to shift who attends TJ that would not lead to the Asian community being upset. In the minds of many of the change at TJ is bad crowd, anything short of a test and giving kids extra credit for starting Algebra in 5th or 6th grade is racist. The system that placed heavy reliance on a test and acceleration in school, which benefits families and cultures what are willing to treat anything that they grind their way ahead in, led student population that does not reflect FCPS in any way, not in terms of socio economics, race, ethnicity, or any demographic measure you could come up with. It is easy to argue "The test because it is based on merit!" while ignoring the prep classes. Or "But they are advanced in math" ignoring the money spent in supplementation programs (AoPS, RSM, prep school classes) that allowed their kids into more advanced classes at a far younger age. Or "But they did all these math competitions/STEM activities" ignoring the fact not everyone can afford the competition math route or pay for robotics.

My kid does RSM and math competitions. He loves it. Both are pricey and require a time commitment and a travel commitment. Many families cannot afford the money for these activities or have the easy transportation to the locations for these activities or have the time to be able to take their ES kid to these activities. I get that which is why I don't have a problem with setting the standards for TJ based on what every kid has access to at their school. Even with that, there are fewer Black and Hispanic kids in AAP, which is the track for taking Algebra in MS. This means that are at a disadvantage in order to be able to meet the more basic requirements. But at least they are all accessible at FCPS schools and not something that people who have the money/knowledge/time have a decided step up on.

If DS wants to go to TJ and does not get accepted, he will be fine at his HS. He enjoys his math class and math competitions. Just like there are kids who play sports all the way through MS and are cut from the HS team, there are kids who put in the work to apply to TJ and they are not admitted. It is a part of life. If they really enjoyed the STEM, math, sports on the way, then they have all the positives of having enjoyed that activity even if they don't attend TJ or make the team.

You keep bringing your kid into this. Best wishes to you and your kid. But your microcosm does not define the community. If you cannot empathize with others' situation and their pain because you believe your logic outweighs others' logic then you are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Let everyone take-off their gloves and have a fistfight. The Dems scored first - and then may be the Governor will score or the Courts will rule against them. And the cycle will repeat. And we will be a broken community. Whatever.

DP. You're crying crocodile tears because the "pain" that you speak of is having a slightly reduced chance of attending a free selective public high school that you have dominated for a decade. When you compare that to the pain that some of these other communities experience on a daily basis, you shouldn't be shocked that you are called out for being tone-deaf.

YOU are making TJ a bigger deal than it is or should be.

Please..stop trying to take the moral high ground. Do the work! We understand the pain that "some of these other communities experience on a daily basis". Way better than you - for obvious reasons. So let us do the hard work on solving those problems. Don't assuage your guilt by attacking other minorities.

Guilt? They have increased the white student acceptance number as well as the result of TJ reform. So they're saying it should be Asians, not the whites, who should pay back the crimes committed by the whites against the minorities. We need to eff them hard whenever possible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one feels wronged? Who are you kidding? Asian families have been complaining, and suing, about geographic quotas and diversity issues for a while now. Anything that is done to increase another groups access is seen as an attack on the Asian population which is over represented in every educational environment, by a large percentage over represented.

This started a long time ago at Universities and there has been complaints, law suits, and other attempts to reverse policies at Universities because attempts at diversifying the Universities population has led to a decline in Asian and White attendees.

There is no timeline or way to shift who attends TJ that would not lead to the Asian community being upset. In the minds of many of the change at TJ is bad crowd, anything short of a test and giving kids extra credit for starting Algebra in 5th or 6th grade is racist. The system that placed heavy reliance on a test and acceleration in school, which benefits families and cultures what are willing to treat anything that they grind their way ahead in, led student population that does not reflect FCPS in any way, not in terms of socio economics, race, ethnicity, or any demographic measure you could come up with. It is easy to argue "The test because it is based on merit!" while ignoring the prep classes. Or "But they are advanced in math" ignoring the money spent in supplementation programs (AoPS, RSM, prep school classes) that allowed their kids into more advanced classes at a far younger age. Or "But they did all these math competitions/STEM activities" ignoring the fact not everyone can afford the competition math route or pay for robotics.

My kid does RSM and math competitions. He loves it. Both are pricey and require a time commitment and a travel commitment. Many families cannot afford the money for these activities or have the easy transportation to the locations for these activities or have the time to be able to take their ES kid to these activities. I get that which is why I don't have a problem with setting the standards for TJ based on what every kid has access to at their school. Even with that, there are fewer Black and Hispanic kids in AAP, which is the track for taking Algebra in MS. This means that are at a disadvantage in order to be able to meet the more basic requirements. But at least they are all accessible at FCPS schools and not something that people who have the money/knowledge/time have a decided step up on.

If DS wants to go to TJ and does not get accepted, he will be fine at his HS. He enjoys his math class and math competitions. Just like there are kids who play sports all the way through MS and are cut from the HS team, there are kids who put in the work to apply to TJ and they are not admitted. It is a part of life. If they really enjoyed the STEM, math, sports on the way, then they have all the positives of having enjoyed that activity even if they don't attend TJ or make the team.

You keep bringing your kid into this. Best wishes to you and your kid. But your microcosm does not define the community. If you cannot empathize with others' situation and their pain because you believe your logic outweighs others' logic then you are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Let everyone take-off their gloves and have a fistfight. The Dems scored first - and then may be the Governor will score or the Courts will rule against them. And the cycle will repeat. And we will be a broken community. Whatever.

DP. You're crying crocodile tears because the "pain" that you speak of is having a slightly reduced chance of attending a free selective public high school that you have dominated for a decade. When you compare that to the pain that some of these other communities experience on a daily basis, you shouldn't be shocked that you are called out for being tone-deaf.

YOU are making TJ a bigger deal than it is or should be.

Please..stop trying to take the moral high ground. Do the work! We understand the pain that "some of these other communities experience on a daily basis". Way better than you - for obvious reasons. So let us do the hard work on solving those problems. Don't assuage your guilt by attacking other minorities.

Guilt? They have increased the white student acceptance number as well as the result of TJ reform. So they're saying it should be Asians, not the whites, who should pay back the crimes committed by the whites against the minorities. We need to eff them hard whenever possible.

Trust me, white liberals are the same racists who murdered the Indians and enslaved blacks. Don't get fooled, fellow minorities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one feels wronged? Who are you kidding? Asian families have been complaining, and suing, about geographic quotas and diversity issues for a while now. Anything that is done to increase another groups access is seen as an attack on the Asian population which is over represented in every educational environment, by a large percentage over represented.

This started a long time ago at Universities and there has been complaints, law suits, and other attempts to reverse policies at Universities because attempts at diversifying the Universities population has led to a decline in Asian and White attendees.

There is no timeline or way to shift who attends TJ that would not lead to the Asian community being upset. In the minds of many of the change at TJ is bad crowd, anything short of a test and giving kids extra credit for starting Algebra in 5th or 6th grade is racist. The system that placed heavy reliance on a test and acceleration in school, which benefits families and cultures what are willing to treat anything that they grind their way ahead in, led student population that does not reflect FCPS in any way, not in terms of socio economics, race, ethnicity, or any demographic measure you could come up with. It is easy to argue "The test because it is based on merit!" while ignoring the prep classes. Or "But they are advanced in math" ignoring the money spent in supplementation programs (AoPS, RSM, prep school classes) that allowed their kids into more advanced classes at a far younger age. Or "But they did all these math competitions/STEM activities" ignoring the fact not everyone can afford the competition math route or pay for robotics.

My kid does RSM and math competitions. He loves it. Both are pricey and require a time commitment and a travel commitment. Many families cannot afford the money for these activities or have the easy transportation to the locations for these activities or have the time to be able to take their ES kid to these activities. I get that which is why I don't have a problem with setting the standards for TJ based on what every kid has access to at their school. Even with that, there are fewer Black and Hispanic kids in AAP, which is the track for taking Algebra in MS. This means that are at a disadvantage in order to be able to meet the more basic requirements. But at least they are all accessible at FCPS schools and not something that people who have the money/knowledge/time have a decided step up on.

If DS wants to go to TJ and does not get accepted, he will be fine at his HS. He enjoys his math class and math competitions. Just like there are kids who play sports all the way through MS and are cut from the HS team, there are kids who put in the work to apply to TJ and they are not admitted. It is a part of life. If they really enjoyed the STEM, math, sports on the way, then they have all the positives of having enjoyed that activity even if they don't attend TJ or make the team.

You keep bringing your kid into this. Best wishes to you and your kid. But your microcosm does not define the community. If you cannot empathize with others' situation and their pain because you believe your logic outweighs others' logic then you are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Let everyone take-off their gloves and have a fistfight. The Dems scored first - and then may be the Governor will score or the Courts will rule against them. And the cycle will repeat. And we will be a broken community. Whatever.

DP. You're crying crocodile tears because the "pain" that you speak of is having a slightly reduced chance of attending a free selective public high school that you have dominated for a decade. When you compare that to the pain that some of these other communities experience on a daily basis, you shouldn't be shocked that you are called out for being tone-deaf.

YOU are making TJ a bigger deal than it is or should be.

You exemplify the attitude that has brought us to this juncture. It is always about me and never about the "others". Nobody is denying that the previous process had to be fixed. Somewhere along the way the "testing is broken" became an issue of "reduce the number of dominating Asians". Equity at the cost of community discord is not worth it especially when other avenues are available to get to an equitable outcome. If Nelson Mandela could do it in far larger scale, we can all look beyond our noses.

And it starts by not calling others names.

Let's see, lots to unpack here...

1) Plenty of C4TJ folks denied that the previous process had to be fixed. They wanted instead to substitute "fixing the pipeline" - a decades-long process that they had no real intention of investing in - for any substantial admissions-process adjustments. Don't misrepresent the core argument of the folks making the most noise - you lose credibility when you do that.

2) Reducing the number of Asians was never a primary goal of the process. The goal was to create a TJ student body that more accurately reflected the demographic of the catchment area. Those two goals get conflated constantly because the percentage of Asian students was (and still is) so massive at the school. It's not possible to solve issues of representation without reducing the numbers and percentages of groups that are overrepresented. This is logically obvious to all parties involved but the politically expedient move is to misrepresent the goal as "anti-Asian" in much the same way as dumbass conservatives see corporate DEI initiatives as "anti-white".

3) The "community discord" that you speak of took the form of Coalition 4 TJ organizing insanely tone-deaf events both inside and outside the TJ community and seeking media attention to boost their own political profiles and fortunes. They didn't have to behave like their treatment was similar to that of Black folks under Jim Crow or Muslims after 9/11 or even the Japanese during internment. They didn't have to occupy the TJ PTSA - which has absolutely NO affiliation with Admissions - and create a horrific nightmare for several months before their leader resigned in disgrace. But they chose to sow community discord by doing exactly all of those things, and the students suffered as a consequence.

4) Of course other avenues are available to approach a more equitable distribution of opportunity. FCPS and the School Board chose this one, and as a result applications soared by over 20% after they'd declined for years, and students at every middle school in the County now understand that TJ is a possibility that they can aspire to. The fact that interest in TJ rose to that level in and of itself is proof of concept.

5) No one called anyone by any names. Learn what "crocodile tears" means.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one feels wronged? Who are you kidding? Asian families have been complaining, and suing, about geographic quotas and diversity issues for a while now. Anything that is done to increase another groups access is seen as an attack on the Asian population which is over represented in every educational environment, by a large percentage over represented.

This started a long time ago at Universities and there has been complaints, law suits, and other attempts to reverse policies at Universities because attempts at diversifying the Universities population has led to a decline in Asian and White attendees.

There is no timeline or way to shift who attends TJ that would not lead to the Asian community being upset. In the minds of many of the change at TJ is bad crowd, anything short of a test and giving kids extra credit for starting Algebra in 5th or 6th grade is racist. The system that placed heavy reliance on a test and acceleration in school, which benefits families and cultures what are willing to treat anything that they grind their way ahead in, led student population that does not reflect FCPS in any way, not in terms of socio economics, race, ethnicity, or any demographic measure you could come up with. It is easy to argue "The test because it is based on merit!" while ignoring the prep classes. Or "But they are advanced in math" ignoring the money spent in supplementation programs (AoPS, RSM, prep school classes) that allowed their kids into more advanced classes at a far younger age. Or "But they did all these math competitions/STEM activities" ignoring the fact not everyone can afford the competition math route or pay for robotics.

My kid does RSM and math competitions. He loves it. Both are pricey and require a time commitment and a travel commitment. Many families cannot afford the money for these activities or have the easy transportation to the locations for these activities or have the time to be able to take their ES kid to these activities. I get that which is why I don't have a problem with setting the standards for TJ based on what every kid has access to at their school. Even with that, there are fewer Black and Hispanic kids in AAP, which is the track for taking Algebra in MS. This means that are at a disadvantage in order to be able to meet the more basic requirements. But at least they are all accessible at FCPS schools and not something that people who have the money/knowledge/time have a decided step up on.

If DS wants to go to TJ and does not get accepted, he will be fine at his HS. He enjoys his math class and math competitions. Just like there are kids who play sports all the way through MS and are cut from the HS team, there are kids who put in the work to apply to TJ and they are not admitted. It is a part of life. If they really enjoyed the STEM, math, sports on the way, then they have all the positives of having enjoyed that activity even if they don't attend TJ or make the team.

You keep bringing your kid into this. Best wishes to you and your kid. But your microcosm does not define the community. If you cannot empathize with others' situation and their pain because you believe your logic outweighs others' logic then you are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Let everyone take-off their gloves and have a fistfight. The Dems scored first - and then may be the Governor will score or the Courts will rule against them. And the cycle will repeat. And we will be a broken community. Whatever.

DP. You're crying crocodile tears because the "pain" that you speak of is having a slightly reduced chance of attending a free selective public high school that you have dominated for a decade. When you compare that to the pain that some of these other communities experience on a daily basis, you shouldn't be shocked that you are called out for being tone-deaf.

YOU are making TJ a bigger deal than it is or should be.

Please..stop trying to take the moral high ground. Do the work! We understand the pain that "some of these other communities experience on a daily basis". Way better than you - for obvious reasons. So let us do the hard work on solving those problems. Don't assuage your guilt by attacking other minorities.

Guilt? They have increased the white student acceptance number as well as the result of TJ reform. So they're saying it should be Asians, not the whites, who should pay back the crimes committed by the whites against the minorities. We need to eff them hard whenever possible.

Increases in acceptance numbers for white students largely track with increases in applications for them. They made up a larger share of the applicant pool this year, and thus you can't explain their increases in raw numbers or percentages by changes within the selection process. Those increases are more likely explained by changes in the application process than the selection process.

But you probably don't care about that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one feels wronged? Who are you kidding? Asian families have been complaining, and suing, about geographic quotas and diversity issues for a while now. Anything that is done to increase another groups access is seen as an attack on the Asian population which is over represented in every educational environment, by a large percentage over represented.

This started a long time ago at Universities and there has been complaints, law suits, and other attempts to reverse policies at Universities because attempts at diversifying the Universities population has led to a decline in Asian and White attendees.

There is no timeline or way to shift who attends TJ that would not lead to the Asian community being upset. In the minds of many of the change at TJ is bad crowd, anything short of a test and giving kids extra credit for starting Algebra in 5th or 6th grade is racist. The system that placed heavy reliance on a test and acceleration in school, which benefits families and cultures what are willing to treat anything that they grind their way ahead in, led student population that does not reflect FCPS in any way, not in terms of socio economics, race, ethnicity, or any demographic measure you could come up with. It is easy to argue "The test because it is based on merit!" while ignoring the prep classes. Or "But they are advanced in math" ignoring the money spent in supplementation programs (AoPS, RSM, prep school classes) that allowed their kids into more advanced classes at a far younger age. Or "But they did all these math competitions/STEM activities" ignoring the fact not everyone can afford the competition math route or pay for robotics.

My kid does RSM and math competitions. He loves it. Both are pricey and require a time commitment and a travel commitment. Many families cannot afford the money for these activities or have the easy transportation to the locations for these activities or have the time to be able to take their ES kid to these activities. I get that which is why I don't have a problem with setting the standards for TJ based on what every kid has access to at their school. Even with that, there are fewer Black and Hispanic kids in AAP, which is the track for taking Algebra in MS. This means that are at a disadvantage in order to be able to meet the more basic requirements. But at least they are all accessible at FCPS schools and not something that people who have the money/knowledge/time have a decided step up on.

If DS wants to go to TJ and does not get accepted, he will be fine at his HS. He enjoys his math class and math competitions. Just like there are kids who play sports all the way through MS and are cut from the HS team, there are kids who put in the work to apply to TJ and they are not admitted. It is a part of life. If they really enjoyed the STEM, math, sports on the way, then they have all the positives of having enjoyed that activity even if they don't attend TJ or make the team.

You keep bringing your kid into this. Best wishes to you and your kid. But your microcosm does not define the community. If you cannot empathize with others' situation and their pain because you believe your logic outweighs others' logic then you are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Let everyone take-off their gloves and have a fistfight. The Dems scored first - and then may be the Governor will score or the Courts will rule against them. And the cycle will repeat. And we will be a broken community. Whatever.

DP. You're crying crocodile tears because the "pain" that you speak of is having a slightly reduced chance of attending a free selective public high school that you have dominated for a decade. When you compare that to the pain that some of these other communities experience on a daily basis, you shouldn't be shocked that you are called out for being tone-deaf.

YOU are making TJ a bigger deal than it is or should be.

Please..stop trying to take the moral high ground. Do the work! We understand the pain that "some of these other communities experience on a daily basis". Way better than you - for obvious reasons. So let us do the hard work on solving those problems. Don't assuage your guilt by attacking other minorities.

Guilt? They have increased the white student acceptance number as well as the result of TJ reform. So they're saying it should be Asians, not the whites, who should pay back the crimes committed by the whites against the minorities. We need to eff them hard whenever possible.

Increases in acceptance numbers for white students largely track with increases in applications for them. They made up a larger share of the applicant pool this year, and thus you can't explain their increases in raw numbers or percentages by changes within the selection process. Those increases are more likely explained by changes in the application process than the selection process.

But you probably don't care about that.

Yes, what a coincidence! How convenient!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Let's see, lots to unpack here...

1) Plenty of C4TJ folks denied that the previous process had to be fixed. They wanted instead to substitute "fixing the pipeline" - a decades-long process that they had no real intention of investing in - for any substantial admissions-process adjustments. Don't misrepresent the core argument of the folks making the most noise - you lose credibility when you do that.

2) Reducing the number of Asians was never a primary goal of the process. The goal was to create a TJ student body that more accurately reflected the demographic of the catchment area. Those two goals get conflated constantly because the percentage of Asian students was (and still is) so massive at the school. It's not possible to solve issues of representation without reducing the numbers and percentages of groups that are overrepresented. This is logically obvious to all parties involved but the politically expedient move is to misrepresent the goal as "anti-Asian" in much the same way as dumbass conservatives see corporate DEI initiatives as "anti-white".

3) The "community discord" that you speak of took the form of Coalition 4 TJ organizing insanely tone-deaf events both inside and outside the TJ community and seeking media attention to boost their own political profiles and fortunes. They didn't have to behave like their treatment was similar to that of Black folks under Jim Crow or Muslims after 9/11 or even the Japanese during internment. They didn't have to occupy the TJ PTSA - which has absolutely NO affiliation with Admissions - and create a horrific nightmare for several months before their leader resigned in disgrace. But they chose to sow community discord by doing exactly all of those things, and the students suffered as a consequence.

4) Of course other avenues are available to approach a more equitable distribution of opportunity. FCPS and the School Board chose this one, and as a result applications soared by over 20% after they'd declined for years, and students at every middle school in the County now understand that TJ is a possibility that they can aspire to. The fact that interest in TJ rose to that level in and of itself is proof of concept.

5) No one called anyone by any names. Learn what "crocodile tears" means.

Not the PP you're responding to. But your BS screams liberal racism.
1) Yes, the correct solution is to fix the pipeline. The TJ reform aims to fix the results only by dumbing down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Let's see, lots to unpack here...

1) Plenty of C4TJ folks denied that the previous process had to be fixed. They wanted instead to substitute "fixing the pipeline" - a decades-long process that they had no real intention of investing in - for any substantial admissions-process adjustments. Don't misrepresent the core argument of the folks making the most noise - you lose credibility when you do that.

2) Reducing the number of Asians was never a primary goal of the process. The goal was to create a TJ student body that more accurately reflected the demographic of the catchment area. Those two goals get conflated constantly because the percentage of Asian students was (and still is) so massive at the school. It's not possible to solve issues of representation without reducing the numbers and percentages of groups that are overrepresented. This is logically obvious to all parties involved but the politically expedient move is to misrepresent the goal as "anti-Asian" in much the same way as dumbass conservatives see corporate DEI initiatives as "anti-white".

3) The "community discord" that you speak of took the form of Coalition 4 TJ organizing insanely tone-deaf events both inside and outside the TJ community and seeking media attention to boost their own political profiles and fortunes. They didn't have to behave like their treatment was similar to that of Black folks under Jim Crow or Muslims after 9/11 or even the Japanese during internment. They didn't have to occupy the TJ PTSA - which has absolutely NO affiliation with Admissions - and create a horrific nightmare for several months before their leader resigned in disgrace. But they chose to sow community discord by doing exactly all of those things, and the students suffered as a consequence.

4) Of course other avenues are available to approach a more equitable distribution of opportunity. FCPS and the School Board chose this one, and as a result applications soared by over 20% after they'd declined for years, and students at every middle school in the County now understand that TJ is a possibility that they can aspire to. The fact that interest in TJ rose to that level in and of itself is proof of concept.

5) No one called anyone by any names. Learn what "crocodile tears" means.

Yes, it was the main goal. Don't deny it. Even blind people can see it.