I’m a liberal democrat horrified by the current Dr Seuss drama and normalization of censorship

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/dr-seuss-ted-cruz-097350

Interesting article noting how Seuss would have detested Ted Cruz and everything he stands for. The article quotes the author of a book highlighting 100 of the greatest social justice warriors...including Seuss.

Let’s not erase his entire legacy. Stop printing those handful of problematic books, but don’t associate his name with hateful racism.

No worries. People with more than one brain cell aren't doing that.

Not true.

His name was already removed from Read Across America Day. It used to essentially be Dr. Seuss Day. Teachers and librarians would wear the big red and white hat from the Cat in the Hat, and books by Dr. Seuss were prominently featured.

The damage is done.

^^^That’s the cancel culture aspect of this. For whatever reason, this thread has focused on the publisher’s discretion rather than discuss the impact on the annual event and the response by schools.

Until you can show us that no one is reading any Dr Seuss books anymore this kind of alarm is overblown. I mean really. There are thousands of books and authors out there, new ones every year. What people read 100 years ago is not the same as what people read today. Do you really want to claim that book losts should never change?

Book lists can obviously change.

That’s a separate issue from the fact Seuss has been removed from the annual celebration, his name is now linked to racism, schools are taking action in response to this, and ultimately people will stop giving his other books as gifts.

Would you give a pregnant coworker the cat in the hat as a token shower gift at work? Doubtful. That’s the real impact: everyone will have a vague memory that “Seuss books are racist,” and most people won’t want any part of that.

DP. So your fear is a thing you can't show is happening, and we're all just supposed to assume it is or will because you've announced it? Plenty of people I know have been talking about racism in Seuss for years and yet from where I sit I can see three Dr. Seuss books and I know there's more in my daughter's room, all of them gifts but one. This isn't what's happening in the world outside your head.

???

This only became a hot topic this week. It never gained real media attention when it was casually discussed before. The publisher’s announcement coupled with Seuss’ name being removed from the annual celebration prompted so much attention that even conservatives noticed and opted to make it an even bigger debate.

I don’t think it’s crazy to believe there will be a lasting impact here.

So, maybe you received those books as baby gifts before (I did, too). But I bet most people will opt for different books as baby gifts moving forward.

It didn't only become a "hot topic" this week. We were talking about it last year and the year before:

https://www.slj.com/?detailStory=new-study-published-on-racism-and-dr-seuss
https://www.learningforjustice.org/magazine/its-time-to-talk-about-dr-seuss
https://www.nj.com/opinion/2020/03/should-dr-seuss-be-a-victim-of-our-cancel-culture.html

The reason conservative media opted to make it a bigger debate is not that it's such a "hot topic." Its that right wing media's new thing is OMG CANCEL CULTURE!!!1! because that's what they do now. They're an outrage factory. Because if their viewers are pissed, then they'll watch. And vote.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did everyone gloss over my transcript from the View today?

Joy and Whoopi...the most liberal members of the bunch...both thought getting rid of the books was wrong. Both felt it’s better to use art (including these books) for discussion to foster understanding. Flag when the books were written, acknowledge it was a different time, highlight the racism, discuss why it’s racist, and affirm that we know better now.

Again: these are liberal voices saying this is going too far. These are not conservatives. These are not racists.

They are admittedly older, and I suspect there might be a generational divide on this topic. But these are comics who value free speech and abhor censorship. They also believe it’s better to talk about issues instead of bury them. There’s value in learning from past mistakes.

Who is doing the censoring?

If they want to read these to their children no one is stopping them.

Are you suggesting parents MUST read these books, that you want to force people to read them?

No, nobody is suggesting that.

My takeaway from their discussion is the fear is the slippery slope.

Joy actually did say if she were a teacher, she would use texts like this to foster discussion. Read the sentence, show the picture, etc. and ask students to point out the racism.

I personally think the Seuss co simply wants to dump books that aren’t profitable.

The larger issue imho is the takeaway today seems to be that Seuss was a racist, his books should no longer be read, and his legacy is forever tarnished. Note: he was removed from Read across America.

Will people forego gifting pregnant moms and toddlers with other Seuss books? I think they might. His name has been tarnished, and that’s the takeaway.

^^^This is the actual cancel aspect.

OP here and this person articulates my feelings much better than I can. I’m not a secret republican, and it’s quite telling that you all are making assumptions about me based on my post and feelings. This is the problem with the world today, everything is so extreme and black and white and there is no room for thoughtful nuance like the Joy/Whoopi suggestions on the View (for example). If I have a problem with what’s going on here with Seuss I’m suddenly a racist?! Sheesh.

Nothing is stopping you from doing just what Joy suggests. Nothing at all. Go buy the books from a used store, and have that discussion with your children to your heart's content. But you seem to be totally bewildered that someone might come to a different conclusion than you have, i.e. the owners of the books themselves. They came to a different conclusion. It's their right to decide that they no longer want their name on, or be associated, with racist imagery in a few books. Not all of his books, a few books. You're fighting so hard for a company to continue to market racist imagery to children when they are simply saying, 'hey, we don't want to market racist imagery to children anymore." But if you want to do that and be able to have fuller discussions about racism with your children, have at it. Because the books haven't been censored. They full stop haven't been censored.

Also, Joy and Whoopi ARE LIBERALS. So clearly this isn't a problem with the Evil Liberals And Their Cancel Culture, although if you want to turn that into a children's book, feel free.

Just because Joy and Whoopi identify as liberals doesn't mean they are right on this issue.

No, but it does mean that liberals aren't monolithic on Dr. Seuss's alleged cancelation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did everyone gloss over my transcript from the View today?

Joy and Whoopi...the most liberal members of the bunch...both thought getting rid of the books was wrong. Both felt it’s better to use art (including these books) for discussion to foster understanding. Flag when the books were written, acknowledge it was a different time, highlight the racism, discuss why it’s racist, and affirm that we know better now.

Again: these are liberal voices saying this is going too far. These are not conservatives. These are not racists.

They are admittedly older, and I suspect there might be a generational divide on this topic. But these are comics who value free speech and abhor censorship. They also believe it’s better to talk about issues instead of bury them. There’s value in learning from past mistakes.

Who is doing the censoring?

If they want to read these to their children no one is stopping them.

Are you suggesting parents MUST read these books, that you want to force people to read them?

No, nobody is suggesting that.

My takeaway from their discussion is the fear is the slippery slope.

Joy actually did say if she were a teacher, she would use texts like this to foster discussion. Read the sentence, show the picture, etc. and ask students to point out the racism.

I personally think the Seuss co simply wants to dump books that aren’t profitable.

The larger issue imho is the takeaway today seems to be that Seuss was a racist, his books should no longer be read, and his legacy is forever tarnished. Note: he was removed from Read across America.

Will people forego gifting pregnant moms and toddlers with other Seuss books? I think they might. His name has been tarnished, and that’s the takeaway.

^^^This is the actual cancel aspect.

OP here and this person articulates my feelings much better than I can. I’m not a secret republican, and it’s quite telling that you all are making assumptions about me based on my post and feelings. This is the problem with the world today, everything is so extreme and black and white and there is no room for thoughtful nuance like the Joy/Whoopi suggestions on the View (for example). If I have a problem with what’s going on here with Seuss I’m suddenly a racist?! Sheesh.

Nothing is stopping you from doing just what Joy suggests. Nothing at all. Go buy the books from a used store, and have that discussion with your children to your heart's content. But you seem to be totally bewildered that someone might come to a different conclusion than you have, i.e. the owners of the books themselves. They came to a different conclusion. It's their right to decide that they no longer want their name on, or be associated, with racist imagery in a few books. Not all of his books, a few books. You're fighting so hard for a company to continue to market racist imagery to children when they are simply saying, 'hey, we don't want to market racist imagery to children anymore." But if you want to do that and be able to have fuller discussions about racism with your children, have at it. Because the books haven't been censored. They full stop haven't been censored.

Also, Joy and Whoopi ARE LIBERALS. So clearly this isn't a problem with the Evil Liberals And Their Cancel Culture, although if you want to turn that into a children's book, feel free.

Just because Joy and Whoopi identify as liberals doesn't mean they are right on this issue.

No, but it does mean that liberals aren't monolithic on Dr. Seuss's alleged cancelation.

+1. This is what freedom of speech looks like.

It also looks like a publisher deciding which books to cancel.

[Anonymous]

'Member when conservatives tried to force employees at Starbucks to say "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays"?

Pepperidge Farms 'members.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Dr. Seuss Enterprises said it made the decision after consulting educators and reviewing its catalog."

Dr. Seuss had a long history of publishing racist and anti-Semitic work, spanning back to the 1920s when he was a student at Dartmouth College. There, Dr. Seuss once drew Black boxers as gorillas and perpetuated Jewish stereotypes by portraying Jewish characters as financially stingy.

Oh, the horror that the people who manage his estate might want to dial back the parts of his work that suck by today's standards. Why can't I just go eat in a Sambo's Restaurant, pour some Aunt Jemima over my pancakes, and read some Dr. Suess depicting black people as gorillas. Damn you liberals!!!

If you actually read the title I mentioned, a classic Seuss book, (and not just the article), the only offensive line in there is “and a Chinese man that eats with sticks”. I’m just saying, this is a slippery slope and where does it stop?

Well, are you going to force a private entity to publish a book they don't want to publish? Where does that slippery slope end?

The government isn't doing this. They aren't burning all copies. You can still get one, read the one you have, give your copy as a gift to your grandchild if you must, just like many other books that are no longer in publications.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/dr-seuss-ted-cruz-097350

Interesting article noting how Seuss would have detested Ted Cruz and everything he stands for. The article quotes the author of a book highlighting 100 of the greatest social justice warriors...including Seuss.

Let’s not erase his entire legacy. Stop printing those handful of problematic books, but don’t associate his name with hateful racism.

No worries. People with more than one brain cell aren't doing that.

Not true.

His name was already removed from Read Across America Day. It used to essentially be Dr. Seuss Day. Teachers and librarians would wear the big red and white hat from the Cat in the Hat, and books by Dr. Seuss were prominently featured.

The damage is done.

^^^That’s the cancel culture aspect of this. For whatever reason, this thread has focused on the publisher’s discretion rather than discuss the impact on the annual event and the response by schools.

Until you can show us that no one is reading any Dr Seuss books anymore this kind of alarm is overblown. I mean really. There are thousands of books and authors out there, new ones every year. What people read 100 years ago is not the same as what people read today. Do you really want to claim that book losts should never change?

Book lists can obviously change.

That’s a separate issue from the fact Seuss has been removed from the annual celebration, his name is now linked to racism, schools are taking action in response to this, and ultimately people will stop giving his other books as gifts.

Would you give a pregnant coworker the cat in the hat as a token shower gift at work? Doubtful. That’s the real impact: everyone will have a vague memory that “Seuss books are racist,” and most people won’t want any part of that.

DP. So your fear is a thing you can't show is happening, and we're all just supposed to assume it is or will because you've announced it? Plenty of people I know have been talking about racism in Seuss for years and yet from where I sit I can see three Dr. Seuss books and I know there's more in my daughter's room, all of them gifts but one. This isn't what's happening in the world outside your head.

???

This only became a hot topic this week. It never gained real media attention when it was casually discussed before. The publisher’s announcement coupled with Seuss’ name being removed from the annual celebration prompted so much attention that even conservatives noticed and opted to make it an even bigger debate.

I don’t think it’s crazy to believe there will be a lasting impact here.

So, maybe you received those books as baby gifts before (I did, too). But I bet most people will opt for different books as baby gifts moving forward.

It didn't only become a "hot topic" this week. We were talking about it last year and the year before:

https://www.slj.com/?detailStory=new-study-published-on-racism-and-dr-seuss
https://www.learningforjustice.org/magazine/its-time-to-talk-about-dr-seuss
https://www.nj.com/opinion/2020/03/should-dr-seuss-be-a-victim-of-our-cancel-culture.html

The reason conservative media opted to make it a bigger debate is not that it's such a "hot topic." Its that right wing media's new thing is OMG CANCEL CULTURE!!!1! because that's what they do now. They're an outrage factory. Because if their viewers are pissed, then they'll watch. And vote.

The point is that this has become a much bigger topic this week than it was when raised in the past...as evidenced by the conservatives capitalizing on it.

[Anonymous]

OP apparently doesn't realize that private companies can stop doing whatever they want to do.

Don't want to bake a gay wedding cake?
They don't have to.

Don't want to print books that reference older racial stereotypes?
They don't have to.

See how that works?

[Anonymous]

Dr. Seuss Enterprises was the LP created by the estate of Dr. Seuss "to nurture and safeguard the relationship consumers have with Dr. Seuss characters". It was run by his widow Audrey, who was actively involved until her death a few years ago. Today it is run by a longtime employee who worked with Audrey for 20 years.

I am not 100% sure, but since they had no children, it most likely continues to operate as the estate of Dr. Seuss, charged with the same mission to nurture and safeguard that relationship. Random House publishes much of what they do, but they don't own the rights as far as I know.

Therefore the decision made represents the will of the Seuss Estate, executed by the employees who knew the mind of Audrey Geisel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Where's that other thread now saying cancel culture is a 'rwnj myth'?


Look at what liberalism is turning into - the most militant brainwashing intolerant philosophy on the planet. You better not stand in the way of any new slight the diversity/racism/social justice steam roller comes up with next! Dr. Seuss.....the latest social justice casualty.

Uh,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please include links, people.

This story has multiple headlines on Fox News. That’s why troll op is glomming on to it.

The Dr. Seuss foundation says it will stop publishing several books due to racist stereotypes. It’s pretty stupid and I think the backlash will be pretty significant. That said, this is not due to the government action but because of people with power listening to an increasingly shrill and insane minority. They don’t seem to have any moral compass of their own so they just follow the Twitterati.

I’m OP, not a troll. Before posting here I mentioned this article to my husband (a conservative) and how it bothered me, and he said “well this is exactly what you voted for! You voted to affirm behavior like this”. Which made me very angry, and I turned here for a discussion. As a democrat, I am afraid of the influence this extremely loud minority has. I do not support pulling books from shelves, or re-writing history, or large tech companies silencing opposing or even offensive participants. It just seems like society is going to a weird place, and the corporations are perhaps in a place to censor on behalf of the government, which can claim it has no influence?

The fact you are concerned about “rewriting history” demonstrates your lack of critical thinking skills. No one is trying to rewrite history. People are however trying to say that the way history has been taught and framed in the past is not accurate.

No actual liberal with a brain in their head thinks, for example, that removing Civil War statues erected in the 1930s by white supremacists is rewriting history.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please include links, people.

This story has multiple headlines on Fox News. That’s why troll op is glomming on to it.

The Dr. Seuss foundation says it will stop publishing several books due to racist stereotypes. It’s pretty stupid and I think the backlash will be pretty significant. That said, this is not due to the government action but because of people with power listening to an increasingly shrill and insane minority. They don’t seem to have any moral compass of their own so they just follow the Twitterati.

I’m OP, not a troll. Before posting here I mentioned this article to my husband (a conservative) and how it bothered me, and he said “well this is exactly what you voted for! You voted to affirm behavior like this”. Which made me very angry, and I turned here for a discussion. As a democrat, I am afraid of the influence this extremely loud minority has. I do not support pulling books from shelves, or re-writing history, or large tech companies silencing opposing or even offensive participants. It just seems like society is going to a weird place, and the corporations are perhaps in a place to censor on behalf of the government, which can claim it has no influence?

The fact you are concerned about “rewriting history” demonstrates your lack of critical thinking skills. No one is trying to rewrite history. People are however trying to say that the way history has been taught and framed in the past is not accurate.

No actual liberal with a brain in their head thinks, for example, that removing Civil War statues erected in the 1930s by white supremacists is rewriting history.

It changes what people think our history is and many find that either threatening or unneccesary. It's not a lack of critical thinking skills. It's your not understanding the meaning behind her words, while she understands full well that you are removing the statues because they do have historical meaning.

And is your history really more accurate? Who is to say? Your version sounds better to you, that's all.

[Anonymous]

Well, you voted for this type of leadership, OP.

We warned you.

By the way, info/clips of Michelle O and Kamala are circulating. They LOVED Dr. Seuss! Lol!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well, you voted for this type of leadership, OP.

We warned you.

By the way, info/clips of Michelle O and Kamala are circulating. They LOVED Dr. Seuss! Lol!

Is Biden in charge of what Dr. Seuss books are in active publication?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well, you voted for this type of leadership, OP.

We warned you.

By the way, info/clips of Michelle O and Kamala are circulating. They LOVED Dr. Seuss! Lol!

I am neither Michelle O or Kamala. But I love Dr. Seuss. And my kids do too. And I have no problem with the Seuss estate pulling some of the books out of publication. Not sure what the gotcha is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please include links, people.

This story has multiple headlines on Fox News. That’s why troll op is glomming on to it.

The Dr. Seuss foundation says it will stop publishing several books due to racist stereotypes. It’s pretty stupid and I think the backlash will be pretty significant. That said, this is not due to the government action but because of people with power listening to an increasingly shrill and insane minority. They don’t seem to have any moral compass of their own so they just follow the Twitterati.

I’m OP, not a troll. Before posting here I mentioned this article to my husband (a conservative) and how it bothered me, and he said “well this is exactly what you voted for! You voted to affirm behavior like this”. Which made me very angry, and I turned here for a discussion. As a democrat, I am afraid of the influence this extremely loud minority has. I do not support pulling books from shelves, or re-writing history, or large tech companies silencing opposing or even offensive participants. It just seems like society is going to a weird place, and the corporations are perhaps in a place to censor on behalf of the government, which can claim it has no influence?

The fact you are concerned about “rewriting history” demonstrates your lack of critical thinking skills. No one is trying to rewrite history. People are however trying to say that the way history has been taught and framed in the past is not accurate.

No actual liberal with a brain in their head thinks, for example, that removing Civil War statues erected in the 1930s by white supremacists is rewriting history.

It changes what people think our history is and many find that either threatening or unneccesary. It's not a lack of critical thinking skills. It's your not understanding the meaning behind her words, while she understands full well that you are removing the statues because they do have historical meaning.

And is your history really more accurate? Who is to say? Your version sounds better to you, that's all.

No one is changing any history. By removing books from the roster of ones they want to actively publish, they're changing the future. We all have that ability.