How does one prep place account for 25% of TJ Admissions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Or..... and hear me out.... what if there were no exam? What if we used....

- more robust teacher recommendations that were designed to identify top performers in each class/school, not only on metrics of academic performance, but also improving the recommendations to include areas like grit, determination, response to adversity, concern for others, academic citizenship, integrity, etc?

- SIS questions that give a stronger overall profile of each student and allow an admissions committee to create a balanced class - Do you even want to go to TJ? How would you impact an academic community? What do you want to be when you grow up? What sort of things do you enjoy outside of STEM?

- GPA and SOL scores to establish a baseline of competency in the relevant courses, with no favoritism towards kids who are in Geometry or higher in 8th grade?

- an interview process designed to help determine which kids are genuine in their interest and aptitude for a comprehensive advanced education with a focus on STEM?

A class of students selected in this way would have a MUCH, MUCH higher ceiling than the current classes that walk around TJ right now.

Ugh. That would make things incredibly subjective. It would still lead to gaming of the system, since kids would simply learn how to write the SIS questions and perform at the interviews in a way that helps them look good to the selection committees.

Exactly! Dr. Rao, or whatever his name is, will just open a different cram school that will employ experts on targeted writing and interview skills. Same 70 weeks of prep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Prepping: I don't see what's wrong in prepping. We have the opportunity to apply to one of the best high schools in the country. It is going to be competitive and people who are motivated to get into it would want to give it their best shot. There is a published admission criteria (which reflects the baseline for the school). Prepping to do well on a test is not cheating or faking. It is hard work. It is not undeserving kids getting the answer key the day before the test and memorizing it. It is children that show potential from an early grade (might be giftedness or perseverance), which is reflected in grades, SOL, course selections, participation in competitions, STEM activities inside and outside of school. It is parents that spend countless hours with the children showing interest in their progress, coaching them at home, checking their work, driving them around. And in the case of prep centers, it is rigorous work environment with lots of tutoring, assignments, practice tests, company of like-minded children.

So, very bright, motivated kids who don't come from privileged backgrounds and can't afford the extras don't belong at TJ? In FCPS, the AA and Hispanic populations tend to be lower income as a whole than the white and Asian ones. When admissions systems for a public school program are set up such that kids who lack the means to take expensive prep classes and perhaps don't have parents who are able to spend countless hours coaching their children, there's a huge problem.

You're just convincing me that FCPS needs to end the insanity and start doing a racially balanced lottery (among kids who meet the baseline scores) for the seats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

tj student (2023) here. the kids gave curie the test question after they took the test. so if ur calling the fbi ur calling it on the kids who did it. no rule against it.

Actually, there are rules against sharing the test questions. If you are a TJ student, you should know this. The students signed a pledge when they took the test that they would not discuss the specific questions.

Curie Learning Center published the names of their 133 students that were admitted to TJ on August 17th.

If FCPS is serious about the academic integrity of TJ, they could investigate these 133 students. There were plenty of students in the semifinalist and/or wait list that potentially were denied admission if Curie was engaging in teaching children how to cheat on the admissions test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everything seems to be about “gaining an edge” and exploiting every possible angle with these TJHSST families. They absolutely suck all the fun out of high school with their grim zero-sum game mentality. It provides quite a window as to why applications from other students have been declining sharply.

Says the racist who cannot work hard.

TJ grad here who managed to get in without prepping, succeed without cheating, and graduate with a 4.1/1560/$10K+ in scholarship offers...all with minimal parental oversight. Sorry about your need to control your kid's entire life at any cost rather than actually raise a self-motivated individual.

BINGO. There are plenty of kids at TJ right now who belong at TJ. There are also plenty of kids who have faked their way in through prepping and stayed in through cheating. If you've been there for any length of time, you know and understand this reality and also that the numbers of the latter have been growing significantly for the last decade or so.

We should distinguish between cheating and prepping:

Cheating: No evidence of wrongdoing by anyone has been provided. Instead, what we have is:
i) Anecdotes by a few on an anonymous message board (TJ vents) just like this one, that some questions on QuantQ (one of multiple admissions criteria including ACT Aspire, grades in 7th and 8th, math level, essay/writing prompt, teacher recommendations) looked familiar from several practice tests taken at Curie - Perfectly logical explanations for this have been discussed on this thread. Curie provides several practice tests and assignments over the 1.5 years of prep, so its not a big surprise that a few questions might resemble what they have practiced before. Just like in any sport (e.g. Football) players from high quality teams practice lots of different plays and so if they encounter a play they have practiced before it does not mean that there is foul play (unless there is evidence of it, a la Houston Astros).
ii) Innuendo that there must be something fishy because 25% of admitted students went for prep at Curie - Again, perfectly logical explanations for this have been discussed on this thread. It could easily be explained by a combination of parents/children motivated to apply to TJ and willing to prep for it, relatively academically advanced children, and rigorous work ethic at Curie. There is nothing inherently wrong/unfair about this, unless there is evidence to the contrary.
iii) Innuendo that something is fishy because substantially all kids at Curie are of Indian origin - I am not sure why the demographic makeup of Curie students is relevant. Regardless, here is my explanation. Curie is relatively well known among Indian parents. There are a few other enrichment centers (MyTJPrep, A4E) offering TJ/AOS/AET prep that also have majority Indian origin children, and I know of at least one center (Sunshine) that has majority east asian children (chinese, korean), and all promote their high success rates. There might be others that are popular universally or among specific groups. Most of these enrichment centers offer several other enrichment courses on a variety of topics to kids of all ages. These centers are open to everyone, but there is relatively high level of interest among asians in TJ/AOS/AET (reflected in lopsided applicant pool demographic statistics), and the motivation to get into and prep for it, and relative awareness and popularity of each center within specific groups is reflected in the demographics of the center.
Having said this, if anyone has knowledge or evidence of cheating or fraud, they should report it and have it investigated, rather than (or in addition to) vent on TJ Vents or DCUM.

Prepping: I don't see what's wrong in prepping. We have the opportunity to apply to one of the best high schools in the country. It is going to be competitive and people who are motivated to get into it would want to give it their best shot. There is a published admission criteria (which reflects the baseline for the school). Prepping to do well on a test is not cheating or faking. It is hard work. It is not undeserving kids getting the answer key the day before the test and memorizing it. It is children that show potential from an early grade (might be giftedness or perseverance), which is reflected in grades, SOL, course selections, participation in competitions, STEM activities inside and outside of school. It is parents that spend countless hours with the children showing interest in their progress, coaching them at home, checking their work, driving them around. And in the case of prep centers, it is rigorous work environment with lots of tutoring, assignments, practice tests, company of like-minded children. It is disheartening to see all the efforts being branded as fake or cheating instead of applauding their achievement. You have to put in the effort to excel in any field and prepping is part of the effort. All top athletes have coaches and a very rigorous environment. And the prep doesn't just help you do well in the entrance test, it also helps you do well at school, whether or not you get accepted to TJ/AOS/AET. Finally, advanced STEM education is not very everyone. Some may be interested in athletics or music or theater or history or any other field. Some may not like the intensity that is required for TJ. There is probably a fine line between pushing children into something they are not able to handle or interested in, and motivating children providing them a challenging and rewarding experience so they can excel to the best of their ability. And that is for each parent to figure out with their children rather than being judged by others or shamed for their efforts.

A lot to unpack here.

i) is misleading. The assertion is that the entire Quant-Q test that the class of 2022 took was provided to Curie by their clients in that class, in violation of a written and signed pledge. The Quant-Q is a secured exam and should be the only focus of this inquiry, given that the other two exams have plenty of prep material readily available.

The assertion continues that Curie used that illegally obtained information from the previous exam to develop practice questions, which students from their classes of 2023 were surprised to find that they'd seen before. There's nothing wrong with developing and working on practice questions, but if you shouldn't have the material with which to develop those questions, that is fraudulent behavior.

The evidence of the foul play here is that students in the class of 2023 assert that they had seen the questions before when they went in to take the exam the following year - these students, by the way, are not anonymous on the TJ Vents board.

ii) the number is actually closer to 28%. And the fact that there exist perfectly logical explanations is not evidence to counter the assertions made by students who have nothing to gain and everything to lose by bringing this situation to light.

iii) it really is immaterial the race of the owners or teachers or students. That is true. What is material is that by having an illegally obtained advantage, Curie created huge imbalances in an exam that is graded on a national curve.

There is no absolute raw score a student must get on the Quant-Q in order to have a shot at the semifinalist round, rather, depending on their score in the Science ACT, they either must be in the 50th percentile or above or the 75th percentile or above. Never mind what other students in other parts of the country were impacted by this imbalance.

So because of this, the score that a student would have had to achieve to qualify as a semifinalist was higher than it would have been had the Curie students not been granted access to this material. Kids were eliminated from the process because of this - they had to have been, because the standard changes when you introduce artificially inflated numbers into the equation.

And as far as prepping goes.... students shouldn't have to choose between a chance at an advanced STEM education and whatever else they're interested in while they're in middle and elementary school. I get it in high school, but otherwise it's just too early. The STEM community would be better served by a more well-rounded population of TJ graduates.

[Anonymous]

I think Asian-Americans should stop feeding the racist trollss. Why are we apologizing for our kids success and our own success in meeting our children needs? We have worked as indentured laborers in this country for years making the fraction of money that Whites make. Thanks to our frugalness and sacrifices we have been able to pay for enrichment for our children. I think if people want to save money for their kids education they can certainly do. There is a lot of BS on these threads but mainly envy and jealousy.

How do Asian-Americans have so much money to pay for prep courses? How are their kids doing so well? Well, Asian-Americans learn to make the best of the resources that are given to them. Its a part of our daily life. I see other racial groups and their conspicuous consumption on clothes, restaurants, beauty treatments, vacations and I don't say a word. But, when my kid goes to get educated every one is green with envy. Maybe start spending less on yourself and start spending more on your kid's education.

[Anonymous]

Indian-American kids being taught by an Indian professor? That's why. You study for 60 weeks, you will be excelling in your middle school class and also getting TJ. Also, all uncles and aunties know your parents. If you misbehave and don't put in the hard work, everyone and their parents will know.

[Anonymous]

Racist (n.) see below.

Anonymous wrote:I think Asian-Americans should stop feeding the racist trollss. Why are we apologizing for our kids success and our own success in meeting our children needs? We have worked as indentured laborers in this country for years making the fraction of money that Whites make. Thanks to our frugalness and sacrifices we have been able to pay for enrichment for our children. I think if people want to save money for their kids education they can certainly do. There is a lot of BS on these threads but mainly envy and jealousy.

How do Asian-Americans have so much money to pay for prep courses? How are their kids doing so well? Well, Asian-Americans learn to make the best of the resources that are given to them. Its a part of our daily life. I see other racial groups and their conspicuous consumption on clothes, restaurants, beauty treatments, vacations and I don't say a word. But, when my kid goes to get educated every one is green with envy. Maybe start spending less on yourself and start spending more on your kid's education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Prepping: I don't see what's wrong in prepping. We have the opportunity to apply to one of the best high schools in the country. It is going to be competitive and people who are motivated to get into it would want to give it their best shot. There is a published admission criteria (which reflects the baseline for the school). Prepping to do well on a test is not cheating or faking. It is hard work. It is not undeserving kids getting the answer key the day before the test and memorizing it. It is children that show potential from an early grade (might be giftedness or perseverance), which is reflected in grades, SOL, course selections, participation in competitions, STEM activities inside and outside of school. It is parents that spend countless hours with the children showing interest in their progress, coaching them at home, checking their work, driving them around. And in the case of prep centers, it is rigorous work environment with lots of tutoring, assignments, practice tests, company of like-minded children.

So, very bright, motivated kids who don't come from privileged backgrounds and can't afford the extras don't belong at TJ? In FCPS, the AA and Hispanic populations tend to be lower income as a whole than the white and Asian ones. When admissions systems for a public school program are set up such that kids who lack the means to take expensive prep classes and perhaps don't have parents who are able to spend countless hours coaching their children, there's a huge problem.

You're just convincing me that FCPS needs to end the insanity and start doing a racially balanced lottery (among kids who meet the baseline scores) for the seats.

I think we should separate race from income level. While it may be true on a relative basis (and possibly should be addressed on a national level), I wouldn't perpetuate a stereotype that AA/Hispanics equals lower income.

There might be fee waivers for lower income children at Curie or other test prep centers. FCPS should also invest in identifying and helping them from an early age. At the risk of generalizing, unfortunately, I suspect in many cases lower income also corresponds with parents either being less educated, less informed of the opportunities, or not having enough time/ability to invest with the child. That means FCPS will have to do the hard work by intervening early, reaching out to parents and informing them of the child's potential and enrichment/advanced learning opportunities available to them and taking on a little bit more of the burden from the parents. Introducing a quota or lottery for advanced STEM high school if a child isn't ready for the rigor is only a recipe for failure. It also doesn't mean we should knock down other children or discount their efforts as fake or cheating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everything seems to be about “gaining an edge” and exploiting every possible angle with these TJHSST families. They absolutely suck all the fun out of high school with their grim zero-sum game mentality. It provides quite a window as to why applications from other students have been declining sharply.

Says the racist who cannot work hard.

TJ grad here who managed to get in without prepping, succeed without cheating, and graduate with a 4.1/1560/$10K+ in scholarship offers...all with minimal parental oversight. Sorry about your need to control your kid's entire life at any cost rather than actually raise a self-motivated individual.

BINGO. There are plenty of kids at TJ right now who belong at TJ. There are also plenty of kids who have faked their way in through prepping and stayed in through cheating. If you've been there for any length of time, you know and understand this reality and also that the numbers of the latter have been growing significantly for the last decade or so.

We should distinguish between cheating and prepping:

Cheating: No evidence of wrongdoing by anyone has been provided. Instead, what we have is:
i) Anecdotes by a few on an anonymous message board (TJ vents) just like this one, that some questions on QuantQ (one of multiple admissions criteria including ACT Aspire, grades in 7th and 8th, math level, essay/writing prompt, teacher recommendations) looked familiar from several practice tests taken at Curie - Perfectly logical explanations for this have been discussed on this thread. Curie provides several practice tests and assignments over the 1.5 years of prep, so its not a big surprise that a few questions might resemble what they have practiced before. Just like in any sport (e.g. Football) players from high quality teams practice lots of different plays and so if they encounter a play they have practiced before it does not mean that there is foul play (unless there is evidence of it, a la Houston Astros).
ii) Innuendo that there must be something fishy because 25% of admitted students went for prep at Curie - Again, perfectly logical explanations for this have been discussed on this thread. It could easily be explained by a combination of parents/children motivated to apply to TJ and willing to prep for it, relatively academically advanced children, and rigorous work ethic at Curie. There is nothing inherently wrong/unfair about this, unless there is evidence to the contrary.
iii) Innuendo that something is fishy because substantially all kids at Curie are of Indian origin - I am not sure why the demographic makeup of Curie students is relevant. Regardless, here is my explanation. Curie is relatively well known among Indian parents. There are a few other enrichment centers (MyTJPrep, A4E) offering TJ/AOS/AET prep that also have majority Indian origin children, and I know of at least one center (Sunshine) that has majority east asian children (chinese, korean), and all promote their high success rates. There might be others that are popular universally or among specific groups. Most of these enrichment centers offer several other enrichment courses on a variety of topics to kids of all ages. These centers are open to everyone, but there is relatively high level of interest among asians in TJ/AOS/AET (reflected in lopsided applicant pool demographic statistics), and the motivation to get into and prep for it, and relative awareness and popularity of each center within specific groups is reflected in the demographics of the center.
Having said this, if anyone has knowledge or evidence of cheating or fraud, they should report it and have it investigated, rather than (or in addition to) vent on TJ Vents or DCUM.

Prepping: I don't see what's wrong in prepping. We have the opportunity to apply to one of the best high schools in the country. It is going to be competitive and people who are motivated to get into it would want to give it their best shot. There is a published admission criteria (which reflects the baseline for the school). Prepping to do well on a test is not cheating or faking. It is hard work. It is not undeserving kids getting the answer key the day before the test and memorizing it. It is children that show potential from an early grade (might be giftedness or perseverance), which is reflected in grades, SOL, course selections, participation in competitions, STEM activities inside and outside of school. It is parents that spend countless hours with the children showing interest in their progress, coaching them at home, checking their work, driving them around. And in the case of prep centers, it is rigorous work environment with lots of tutoring, assignments, practice tests, company of like-minded children. It is disheartening to see all the efforts being branded as fake or cheating instead of applauding their achievement. You have to put in the effort to excel in any field and prepping is part of the effort. All top athletes have coaches and a very rigorous environment. And the prep doesn't just help you do well in the entrance test, it also helps you do well at school, whether or not you get accepted to TJ/AOS/AET. Finally, advanced STEM education is not very everyone. Some may be interested in athletics or music or theater or history or any other field. Some may not like the intensity that is required for TJ. There is probably a fine line between pushing children into something they are not able to handle or interested in, and motivating children providing them a challenging and rewarding experience so they can excel to the best of their ability. And that is for each parent to figure out with their children rather than being judged by others or shamed for their efforts.

A lot to unpack here.

i) is misleading. The assertion is that the entire Quant-Q test that the class of 2022 took was provided to Curie by their clients in that class, in violation of a written and signed pledge. The Quant-Q is a secured exam and should be the only focus of this inquiry, given that the other two exams have plenty of prep material readily available.

The assertion continues that Curie used that illegally obtained information from the previous exam to develop practice questions, which students from their classes of 2023 were surprised to find that they'd seen before. There's nothing wrong with developing and working on practice questions, but if you shouldn't have the material with which to develop those questions, that is fraudulent behavior.

The evidence of the foul play here is that students in the class of 2023 assert that they had seen the questions before when they went in to take the exam the following year - these students, by the way, are not anonymous on the TJ Vents board.

ii) the number is actually closer to 28%. And the fact that there exist perfectly logical explanations is not evidence to counter the assertions made by students who have nothing to gain and everything to lose by bringing this situation to light.

iii) it really is immaterial the race of the owners or teachers or students. That is true. What is material is that by having an illegally obtained advantage, Curie created huge imbalances in an exam that is graded on a national curve.

There is no absolute raw score a student must get on the Quant-Q in order to have a shot at the semifinalist round, rather, depending on their score in the Science ACT, they either must be in the 50th percentile or above or the 75th percentile or above. Never mind what other students in other parts of the country were impacted by this imbalance.

So because of this, the score that a student would have had to achieve to qualify as a semifinalist was higher than it would have been had the Curie students not been granted access to this material. Kids were eliminated from the process because of this - they had to have been, because the standard changes when you introduce artificially inflated numbers into the equation.

And as far as prepping goes.... students shouldn't have to choose between a chance at an advanced STEM education and whatever else they're interested in while they're in middle and elementary school. I get it in high school, but otherwise it's just too early. The STEM community would be better served by a more well-rounded population of TJ graduates.

No illegal material has been obtained by Curie. If you think that that is the case you should report to FBI.

Do not make excuses or spread false rumors because your own children are low caliber students. All educational material is available for free to students around the world for free. If you want you can study hard and do well too - if you have the brain power to begin with.

I won't be surprised that the students who did not get or did not go to Curie should actually started posting on FB in spite. Curie publishes the names of the students who got in and they have rosters. Interview the students and call the FBI. Fire the BOE and the administrators if there has been any irregularity. The test is in the custody of the school district officials. Investigate them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Racist (n.) see below.

Anonymous wrote:I think Asian-Americans should stop feeding the racist trollss. Why are we apologizing for our kids success and our own success in meeting our children needs? We have worked as indentured laborers in this country for years making the fraction of money that Whites make. Thanks to our frugalness and sacrifices we have been able to pay for enrichment for our children. I think if people want to save money for their kids education they can certainly do. There is a lot of BS on these threads but mainly envy and jealousy.

How do Asian-Americans have so much money to pay for prep courses? How are their kids doing so well? Well, Asian-Americans learn to make the best of the resources that are given to them. Its a part of our daily life. I see other racial groups and their conspicuous consumption on clothes, restaurants, beauty treatments, vacations and I don't say a word. But, when my kid goes to get educated every one is green with envy. Maybe start spending less on yourself and start spending more on your kid's education.

The issue is access to the material, which is unavailable to other kids. It has nothing to do with the Asian/non-Asian debate. Put everyone on the same footing. Change the stupid test from year to year and offer past tests to everyone, so that all the kids can prep (at home) if they want to!

[Anonymous]

In any international competitions, there is no such thing "racially balanced lottery".

[Anonymous]

Is there any magnet school in the US that uses lottery system? Just wonder!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
i) is misleading. The assertion is that the entire Quant-Q test that the class of 2022 took was provided to Curie by their clients in that class, in violation of a written and signed pledge. The Quant-Q is a secured exam and should be the only focus of this inquiry, given that the other two exams have plenty of prep material readily available.

The assertion continues that Curie used that illegally obtained information from the previous exam to develop practice questions, which students from their classes of 2023 were surprised to find that they'd seen before. There's nothing wrong with developing and working on practice questions, but if you shouldn't have the material with which to develop those questions, that is fraudulent behavior.

The evidence of the foul play here is that students in the class of 2023 assert that they had seen the questions before when they went in to take the exam the following year - these students, by the way, are not anonymous on the TJ Vents board.

It's a fairly ridiculous assertion. AFAIK, the QuantQ is an online test. How would anyone provide it to Curie? The students don't bring home anything. That must be some fairly elaborate scheme. Some student decides to memorize the whole test instead of trying to solve the questions in the limited time available, and they commit the test to memory even while taking the other sections of the test (ACT Aspire). Then when they get home the decide to go to Curie and tell them all the questions that they memorize. And then lo and behold somehow the same test is repeated the following year? But if you or anyone has evidence of this elaborate scheme please come forward and report it to the authorities.

[Anonymous]

No illegal material has been obtained by Curie. If you think that that is the case you should report to FBI.

Do not make excuses or spread false rumors because your own children are low caliber students. All educational material is available for free to students around the world for free. If you want you can study hard and do well too - if you have the brain power to begin with.

I won't be surprised that the students who did not get or did not go to Curie should actually started posting on FB in spite. Curie publishes the names of the students who got in and they have rosters. Interview the students and call the FBI. Fire the BOE and the administrators if there has been any irregularity. The test is in the custody of the school district officials. Investigate them.



You would have no way of knowing that unless you worked for Curie. And if you do, you definitely don’t want to be posting here.

And you shouldn’t assume that the only people interested in this scandal are people with kids who have something to gain.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
i) is misleading. The assertion is that the entire Quant-Q test that the class of 2022 took was provided to Curie by their clients in that class, in violation of a written and signed pledge. The Quant-Q is a secured exam and should be the only focus of this inquiry, given that the other two exams have plenty of prep material readily available.

The assertion continues that Curie used that illegally obtained information from the previous exam to develop practice questions, which students from their classes of 2023 were surprised to find that they'd seen before. There's nothing wrong with developing and working on practice questions, but if you shouldn't have the material with which to develop those questions, that is fraudulent behavior.

The evidence of the foul play here is that students in the class of 2023 assert that they had seen the questions before when they went in to take the exam the following year - these students, by the way, are not anonymous on the TJ Vents board.

It's a fairly ridiculous assertion. AFAIK, the QuantQ is an online test. How would anyone provide it to Curie? The students don't bring home anything. That must be some fairly elaborate scheme. Some student decides to memorize the whole test instead of trying to solve the questions in the limited time available, and they commit the test to memory even while taking the other sections of the test (ACT Aspire). Then when they get home the decide to go to Curie and tell them all the questions that they memorize. And then lo and behold somehow the same test is repeated the following year? But if you or anyone has evidence of this elaborate scheme please come forward and report it to the authorities.

The Quant-Q is assessed to the TJ population as a pencil and paper exam.

It a very unique exam with very unique question types. It’s not a math test. It has only 28 questions.