Racism / Classism on DCurbanmom trolls or true?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually the point of the AA parents at Wilson thread was about race -- and specifically how teachers and administrators might perceive their children and hold their kids to different standards.

That's not what I took away from the other thread at all -- seems to me lots of the concern from black parents was about whether their black sons would be mistreated and/or led astray by other black students from rough neighborhoods. A pretty clear consensus of black parents seemed to be that their sons were better off at either private schools (higher-income black families) or Banneker/Walls (lower income black families). There was some mention of concern about how teachers might perceive the students, but that was an afterthought. There also was a separate discussion about how these concerns are different from black girls. It was altogether an excellent and illuminating discussion.

No doubt those are all valid concerns black parents might have. White parents might have a whole variety of different concerns about safety and learning, all of which are just as valid. Where this whole discussion goes off the rails is when one or two posters here decide that any viewpoints white parents have must be rooted in racism. That broad brush treatment is frankly offensive and divisive.

I can't decide whether those posters who keep accusing white parents are just trolls, or if they're actually the racists themselves.

Different poster. I agree with most of what you're saying but concern about how teachers perceive a black male student is not an afterthought. At all. It's so much part and parcel of the decision about schools that the posters there probably didn't feel the need to spell it out. The only difference between low SES and high SES black parents on that score is the number of options available to them.

As this thread demonstrates, perception is everything. There may be only one or two trolls calling white parents racist, but there are also a few on the other side dismissing racism as moot. It has the same offensive effect.

It time to put this liberal bs to bed. Please prove that teachers in DCPS have a different view of black male students vs other students. I'll wait.....

[Anonymous]

^^ Are you really arguing this point? There's tons of research that has found that black students face challenges in the educational system. For example, some data suggest that they are less likely to be recommended for G&T programs by white teachers, and are more likely to face harsh punishments.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/424707/

https://www.google.com/amp/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_581788e0e4b064e1b4b4070a/amp

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/03/21/292456211/black-preschoolers-far-more-likely-to-be-suspended

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Huh, what? No, the "resource" is neighborhood schools. Not white people. Where did you get that? The situation for educated white and black parents is obviously different vis a vis racism, but if wealthy black parents in large numbers are refusing to use their neighborhood schools, then that continues to be an issue of class and gentrification. Just likely much less hypocritical.

If wealthy white parents refuse to use their neighborhood school, you call that racism. But if wealthy black parents make the same choice, you call that an issue of "class and gentrification." Sounds to me like you're making a lot of inconsistent judgments about other people based on nothing but their skin color.

I know you're pleased with your high school debate-level logic, but there actually are differences between racism and classism, and the race of the actor does matter. But more important, the impact on DC schools is not due to that relatively small group of affluent black parents.

No doubt there are differences between racism and classism, although they intersect pretty naturally in DC. But my frustration is that you and others on this thread are too quick to label the actions and decisions of white parents as racism, without making any effort to listen to their actual motivations. That hair-trigger approach to charging racism does nothing to advance the discussion and only breeds more resentment on both sides. And when you hold black parents to a different standard, and make excuses for them when they make the exact same choices for the same reasons as their neighbors who are white, you are revealing the hypocrisy and further eroding trust.

By the way, your random insults ("high school debate logic") may make you feel better, but they don't make your point any more effective, so you can stow them.

I have SEEN this play out in my own neighborhood where white parents actively refused to even consider integrating "their" school. I am 100% positive they would claim their motives are other than race. But your express motive doesn't really matter if the result is segregation. I am sure that well meaning whites during Jim Crow sincerely believed that separate but equal was ok, black people were fine, but they just shouldn't mix. I know my Hill neighbors are not KKK. That does not make their refusal to integrate any less racially discriminatory.

This is the fundamental error in your argument. As long as you don't see that, and keep calling most white parents in DC racists, we might as well stop talking to each other.

are you a parent who will actively fight against integrating schools? then you are racist.

I think one thing the holier-than-thou posters here forget is that many of the gentrifier parents in these threads want to INTEGRATE schools further. My own local ES is only ~10% high SES despite the neighborhood being ~50% high SES. I'd prefer the school be more reflective of the neighborhood, NOT less.

So send your kid there. What's the big deal?

I actually plan to send my kid there for PK3 and 4, but cohort matters a lot. That's the big deal.

Why only PK3/4? You have an opportunity to get to know the actual cohort rather than judging them based on statistical correlations. The issues really aren't as black and white as the amateur statisticians here make them out to be.

It's a classic first mover problem. It is idiotic, if everyone who is actually zoned to the school went the problem would be solved instead everyone is afraid to be the first mover and moves/seeks out other options instead. I think capitol hill people should look into the history of the Wilson pyramid. Less than 10 years ago nobody was sending their kids their either and now its fine

I don't think that's true. There are lawyers and journalists living on my block in AU Park who sent their kids to Deal and Wilson and they are all several years beyond college now.

Same here. All my elderly neighbors sent their kids there too. Within the blocks around the schools you will find generations of people who went to Deal and Wilson.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually the point of the AA parents at Wilson thread was about race -- and specifically how teachers and administrators might perceive their children and hold their kids to different standards.

That's not what I took away from the other thread at all -- seems to me lots of the concern from black parents was about whether their black sons would be mistreated and/or led astray by other black students from rough neighborhoods. A pretty clear consensus of black parents seemed to be that their sons were better off at either private schools (higher-income black families) or Banneker/Walls (lower income black families). There was some mention of concern about how teachers might perceive the students, but that was an afterthought. There also was a separate discussion about how these concerns are different from black girls. It was altogether an excellent and illuminating discussion.

No doubt those are all valid concerns black parents might have. White parents might have a whole variety of different concerns about safety and learning, all of which are just as valid. Where this whole discussion goes off the rails is when one or two posters here decide that any viewpoints white parents have must be rooted in racism. That broad brush treatment is frankly offensive and divisive.

I can't decide whether those posters who keep accusing white parents are just trolls, or if they're actually the racists themselves.

Different poster. I agree with most of what you're saying but concern about how teachers perceive a black male student is not an afterthought. At all. It's so much part and parcel of the decision about schools that the posters there probably didn't feel the need to spell it out. The only difference between low SES and high SES black parents on that score is the number of options available to them.

As this thread demonstrates, perception is everything. There may be only one or two trolls calling white parents racist, but there are also a few on the other side dismissing racism as moot. It has the same offensive effect.

It time to put this liberal bs to bed. Please prove that teachers in DCPS have a different view of black male students vs other students. I'll wait.....

Um...

This is a known and proven thing. Educate yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^ Are you really arguing this point? There's tons of research that has found that black students face challenges in the educational system. For example, some data suggest that they are less likely to be recommended for G&T programs by white teachers, and are more likely to face harsh punishments.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/424707/

https://www.google.com/amp/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_581788e0e4b064e1b4b4070a/amp

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/03/21/292456211/black-preschoolers-far-more-likely-to-be-suspended

so much garbage

The first study is inconclusive

The second study is from huffington post which is a partisan bs site basically the fox news of the left

The third study have you ever thought that black students are more disruptive because they come from more broken homes and poorer environments on average which is WHY they are suspended more

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ Are you really arguing this point? There's tons of research that has found that black students face challenges in the educational system. For example, some data suggest that they are less likely to be recommended for G&T programs by white teachers, and are more likely to face harsh punishments.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/424707/

https://www.google.com/amp/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_581788e0e4b064e1b4b4070a/amp

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/03/21/292456211/black-preschoolers-far-more-likely-to-be-suspended

so much garbage

The first study is inconclusive

The second study is from huffington post which is a partisan bs site basically the fox news of the left

The third study have you ever thought that black students are more disruptive because they come from more broken homes and poorer environments on average which is WHY they are suspended more

http://releases.jhu.edu/2016/03/30/race-biases-teachers-expectations-for-students/

[Anonymous]

Omg you just said black kids are more likely to be poorly behaved. Like, because of their race.


Oh, but nooooo, you're not a RACIST.

Holy shit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually the point of the AA parents at Wilson thread was about race -- and specifically how teachers and administrators might perceive their children and hold their kids to different standards.

That's not what I took away from the other thread at all -- seems to me lots of the concern from black parents was about whether their black sons would be mistreated and/or led astray by other black students from rough neighborhoods. A pretty clear consensus of black parents seemed to be that their sons were better off at either private schools (higher-income black families) or Banneker/Walls (lower income black families). There was some mention of concern about how teachers might perceive the students, but that was an afterthought. There also was a separate discussion about how these concerns are different from black girls. It was altogether an excellent and illuminating discussion.

No doubt those are all valid concerns black parents might have. White parents might have a whole variety of different concerns about safety and learning, all of which are just as valid. Where this whole discussion goes off the rails is when one or two posters here decide that any viewpoints white parents have must be rooted in racism. That broad brush treatment is frankly offensive and divisive.

I can't decide whether those posters who keep accusing white parents are just trolls, or if they're actually the racists themselves.

Different poster. I agree with most of what you're saying but concern about how teachers perceive a black male student is not an afterthought. At all. It's so much part and parcel of the decision about schools that the posters there probably didn't feel the need to spell it out. The only difference between low SES and high SES black parents on that score is the number of options available to them.

As this thread demonstrates, perception is everything. There may be only one or two trolls calling white parents racist, but there are also a few on the other side dismissing racism as moot. It has the same offensive effect.

It time to put this liberal bs to bed. Please prove that teachers in DCPS have a different view of black male students vs other students. I'll wait.....

Does that ever work for you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Huh, what? No, the "resource" is neighborhood schools. Not white people. Where did you get that? The situation for educated white and black parents is obviously different vis a vis racism, but if wealthy black parents in large numbers are refusing to use their neighborhood schools, then that continues to be an issue of class and gentrification. Just likely much less hypocritical.

If wealthy white parents refuse to use their neighborhood school, you call that racism. But if wealthy black parents make the same choice, you call that an issue of "class and gentrification." Sounds to me like you're making a lot of inconsistent judgments about other people based on nothing but their skin color.

I know you're pleased with your high school debate-level logic, but there actually are differences between racism and classism, and the race of the actor does matter. But more important, the impact on DC schools is not due to that relatively small group of affluent black parents.

No doubt there are differences between racism and classism, although they intersect pretty naturally in DC. But my frustration is that you and others on this thread are too quick to label the actions and decisions of white parents as racism, without making any effort to listen to their actual motivations. That hair-trigger approach to charging racism does nothing to advance the discussion and only breeds more resentment on both sides. And when you hold black parents to a different standard, and make excuses for them when they make the exact same choices for the same reasons as their neighbors who are white, you are revealing the hypocrisy and further eroding trust.

By the way, your random insults ("high school debate logic") may make you feel better, but they don't make your point any more effective, so you can stow them.

I have SEEN this play out in my own neighborhood where white parents actively refused to even consider integrating "their" school. I am 100% positive they would claim their motives are other than race. But your express motive doesn't really matter if the result is segregation. I am sure that well meaning whites during Jim Crow sincerely believed that separate but equal was ok, black people were fine, but they just shouldn't mix. I know my Hill neighbors are not KKK. That does not make their refusal to integrate any less racially discriminatory.

This is the fundamental error in your argument. As long as you don't see that, and keep calling most white parents in DC racists, we might as well stop talking to each other.

are you a parent who will actively fight against integrating schools? then you are racist.

I think one thing the holier-than-thou posters here forget is that many of the gentrifier parents in these threads want to INTEGRATE schools further. My own local ES is only ~10% high SES despite the neighborhood being ~50% high SES. I'd prefer the school be more reflective of the neighborhood, NOT less.

So send your kid there. What's the big deal?

I actually plan to send my kid there for PK3 and 4, but cohort matters a lot. That's the big deal.

Why only PK3/4? You have an opportunity to get to know the actual cohort rather than judging them based on statistical correlations. The issues really aren't as black and white as the amateur statisticians here make them out to be.

It's a classic first mover problem. It is idiotic, if everyone who is actually zoned to the school went the problem would be solved instead everyone is afraid to be the first mover and moves/seeks out other options instead. I think capitol hill people should look into the history of the Wilson pyramid. Less than 10 years ago nobody was sending their kids their either and now its fine

I don't think that's true. There are lawyers and journalists living on my block in AU Park who sent their kids to Deal and Wilson and they are all several years beyond college now.

Same here. All my elderly neighbors sent their kids there too. Within the blocks around the schools you will find generations of people who went to Deal and Wilson.

10 years? Hilariously ignorant. I went to Wilson 20 years ago and have friends whose parents went there. Wilson has always been fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Omg you just said black kids are more likely to be poorly behaved. Like, because of their race.


Oh, but nooooo, you're not a RACIST.

Holy shit.

try reading moron that's not what I said at all racist troll baiter idiot

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ Are you really arguing this point? There's tons of research that has found that black students face challenges in the educational system. For example, some data suggest that they are less likely to be recommended for G&T programs by white teachers, and are more likely to face harsh punishments.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/424707/

https://www.google.com/amp/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_581788e0e4b064e1b4b4070a/amp

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/03/21/292456211/black-preschoolers-far-more-likely-to-be-suspended

so much garbage

The first study is inconclusive

The second study is from huffington post which is a partisan bs site basically the fox news of the left

The third study have you ever thought that black students are more disruptive because they come from more broken homes and poorer environments on average which is WHY they are suspended more

http://releases.jhu.edu/2016/03/30/race-biases-teachers-expectations-for-students/

that looks like a legit study. My question would be who is right in the end. Are the white teachers overly pessimistic or are they realistic and the black teachers are overly optimistic

[Anonymous]

Wilson has been fine for way more than 10 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ Are you really arguing this point? There's tons of research that has found that black students face challenges in the educational system. For example, some data suggest that they are less likely to be recommended for G&T programs by white teachers, and are more likely to face harsh punishments.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/424707/

https://www.google.com/amp/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_581788e0e4b064e1b4b4070a/amp

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/03/21/292456211/black-preschoolers-far-more-likely-to-be-suspended

so much garbage

The first study is inconclusive

The second study is from huffington post which is a partisan bs site basically the fox news of the left

The third study have you ever thought that black students are more disruptive because they come from more broken homes and poorer environments on average which is WHY they are suspended more

PP here. I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to respond, since I knew you'd move the goal posts, but here goes. I'm going to respond for the benefit of others who may be curious.

Typically, these studies statistically adjust for things demographic factors, grades, etc. that might otherwise lead to spurious conclusions. Take the first link, for example. I looked up the original study, which uses nationally representative, longitudinal data on elementary students. It finds (I've bolded key sections):

"We document that even among students with high standardized test scores, Black students are less likely to be assigned to gifted services in both math and reading, a pattern that persists when controlling for other background factors, such as health and socioeconomic status, and characteristics of classrooms and schools."

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/2332858415622175

Also, re: your speculation that the AA kids face harsher punishments because they have more behavioral problems, that's also not necessarily true. Studies have shown that not only are black boys perceived as being older than they actually are relative to white boys, but they are also more likely to be viewed as culpable for crimes and dehumanized. For example, here's a quote from the third link (again, bolding is mine):

"The students were also shown photographs alongside descriptions of various crimes and asked to assess the age and innocence of white, black or Latino boys ages 10 to 17. The students overestimated the age of blacks by an average of 4.5 years and found them more culpable than whites or Latinos, particularly when the boys were matched with serious crimes, the study found. Researchers used questionnaires to assess the participants' prejudice and dehumanization of blacks. They found that participants who implicitly associated blacks with apes thought the black children were older and less innocent."


And here's the original research paper.

https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/psp-a0035663.pdf

I know that sort of finding might be tough to swallow, but to put it mildly, there's a lot going on here when it comes to education and underrepresented minority status in the U.S.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ Are you really arguing this point? There's tons of research that has found that black students face challenges in the educational system. For example, some data suggest that they are less likely to be recommended for G&T programs by white teachers, and are more likely to face harsh punishments.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/424707/

https://www.google.com/amp/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_581788e0e4b064e1b4b4070a/amp

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/03/21/292456211/black-preschoolers-far-more-likely-to-be-suspended

so much garbage

The first study is inconclusive

The second study is from huffington post which is a partisan bs site basically the fox news of the left

The third study have you ever thought that black students are more disruptive because they come from more broken homes and poorer environments on average which is WHY they are suspended more

PP here. I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to respond, since I knew you'd move the goal posts, but here goes. I'm going to respond for the benefit of others who may be curious.

Typically, these studies statistically adjust for things demographic factors, grades, etc. that might otherwise lead to spurious conclusions. Take the first link, for example. I looked up the original study, which uses nationally representative, longitudinal data on elementary students. It finds (I've bolded key sections):

"We document that even among students with high standardized test scores, Black students are less likely to be assigned to gifted services in both math and reading, a pattern that persists when controlling for other background factors, such as health and socioeconomic status, and characteristics of classrooms and schools."

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/2332858415622175

Also, re: your speculation that the AA kids face harsher punishments because they have more behavioral problems, that's also not necessarily true. Studies have shown that not only are black boys perceived as being older than they actually are relative to white boys, but they are also more likely to be viewed as culpable for crimes and dehumanized. For example, here's a quote from the third link (again, bolding is mine):

"The students were also shown photographs alongside descriptions of various crimes and asked to assess the age and innocence of white, black or Latino boys ages 10 to 17. The students overestimated the age of blacks by an average of 4.5 years and found them more culpable than whites or Latinos, particularly when the boys were matched with serious crimes, the study found. Researchers used questionnaires to assess the participants' prejudice and dehumanization of blacks. They found that participants who implicitly associated blacks with apes thought the black children were older and less innocent."


And here's the original research paper.

https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/psp-a0035663.pdf

I know that sort of finding might be tough to swallow, but to put it mildly, there's a lot going on here when it comes to education and underrepresented minority status in the U.S.

P.S. I won't engage further with this PP, since I doubt this guy even has kids in DC schools. But to wrap it up, I think a lot of educated AA parents share concerns with their white counterparts re: enrolling their kids in schools with low test scores. But that's not the end of the story. They're also worried about peer influences in a way that white parents don't given the shared experiences/culture among AA students. Also, there is real concern re: low teacher expectations and more frequent or harsher punishments--concerns backed up by empirical data in many cases.

[Anonymous]

There are tons of caveats in all those studies and the authors all admit the research in inconclusive and further studies must be done

Lower teacher expectations and harsher punishments based on experience since blacks test worse and have more behavioral problems which is primarily due to lower SES levels, and higher percentages of broken homes