Just got yelled at for leaving my kid alone in in the car while I went to the pharmacy

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your car got carjacked…… !!!!

Which has happened. A woman left a disabled toddler in the car. Left it running with a key in the car. Someone stole the car with her disabled child in it.

OP's child was not disabled

OP's car was locked

What is your point?

Oh and also OP's child was not a toddler

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yikes, this is all really disheartening. Trust me, I am not a “mommy martyr”, and in general I think that a lot of expectations on parents are way too high. But not leaving a young child (or children) alone in a car seems like a no-brainer. It’s disturbing there are posters bragging about doing this. We get it, you’re an irresponsible parent - why is that something you seem proud of? Is it more hassle to bring the kid in with you? Sure. But oh well, that’s going to happen sometimes.

OP’s kid is 7. That means he’s in 2nd grade. If you can’t leave your 2nd grader alone in car for 10 minutes, it’s either because they have profound special needs, or more likely it means that you are absolutely failing as a parent.

And everyone needs to be real - I’m not looking up the dumb@$$ arbitrary laws of whatever state I happen to be in before I use *my own judgement* to determine what I think my child can handle before I pop into a store for a few minutes.

Some of you really need to grow a spine.

It’s not about your spine or your kid’s spine. It’s about what other people can do to 7 year olds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's against the law where I am but I do it occasionally. My toddler was sick, fell asleep in the car, older siblings had an outdoor swim lesson. I double parked where I shouldn't have and kept checking on him for drop off/pick up. Sue me!

You are lazy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's against the law where I am but I do it occasionally. My toddler was sick, fell asleep in the car, older siblings had an outdoor swim lesson. I double parked where I shouldn't have and kept checking on him for drop off/pick up. Sue me!

So you illegally parked and illegally left your child in the car? Wow parent of the year here

Should I have blown off the last swim lesson where I would have found out if they passed the level or should I have drug the sick toddler out of the car?

Take the toddler with you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your car got carjacked…… !!!!

Which has happened. A woman left a disabled toddler in the car. Left it running with a key in the car. Someone stole the car with her disabled child in it.

OP's child was not disabled

OP's car was locked

What is your point?

The car was locked? Since when does a locked car keep thieves and carjackers out? You know it’s pretty easy to get in a locked car right? Do you live in some kind of leafy suburb with zero crime?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yikes, this is all really disheartening. Trust me, I am not a “mommy martyr”, and in general I think that a lot of expectations on parents are way too high. But not leaving a young child (or children) alone in a car seems like a no-brainer. It’s disturbing there are posters bragging about doing this. We get it, you’re an irresponsible parent - why is that something you seem proud of? Is it more hassle to bring the kid in with you? Sure. But oh well, that’s going to happen sometimes.

OP’s kid is 7. That means he’s in 2nd grade. If you can’t leave your 2nd grader alone in car for 10 minutes, it’s either because they have profound special needs, or more likely it means that you are absolutely failing as a parent.

And everyone needs to be real - I’m not looking up the dumb@$$ arbitrary laws of whatever state I happen to be in before I use *my own judgement* to determine what I think my child can handle before I pop into a store for a few minutes.

Some of you really need to grow a spine.

It’s not about your spine or your kid’s spine. It’s about what other people can do to 7 year olds.

If you want to talk about what people "can" do to other people then almost no one should be left in a car alone. I'm 5' tall and weigh 100 lbs. People can do all kinds of things to me if they want and yet I am alone in public all the time.

In MD the law says you can't leave a 7 yr old alone in a car but you can leave an 8 yr old alone in a car. Are 8 yr olds more impervious to what other people can do? Of course not.

This is about the maturity level of the child. Most states have determined a 7 yr old is mature enough to sit in a car alone. Because they are. Just because you can imagine all kinds of crazy things that could happen to that 7 yr old doesn't mean they have even a remote chance of them happening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yikes, this is all really disheartening. Trust me, I am not a “mommy martyr”, and in general I think that a lot of expectations on parents are way too high. But not leaving a young child (or children) alone in a car seems like a no-brainer. It’s disturbing there are posters bragging about doing this. We get it, you’re an irresponsible parent - why is that something you seem proud of? Is it more hassle to bring the kid in with you? Sure. But oh well, that’s going to happen sometimes.

OP’s kid is 7. That means he’s in 2nd grade. If you can’t leave your 2nd grader alone in car for 10 minutes, it’s either because they have profound special needs, or more likely it means that you are absolutely failing as a parent.

And everyone needs to be real - I’m not looking up the dumb@$$ arbitrary laws of whatever state I happen to be in before I use *my own judgement* to determine what I think my child can handle before I pop into a store for a few minutes.

Some of you really need to grow a spine.

It’s not about your spine or your kid’s spine. It’s about what other people can do to 7 year olds.

If you want to talk about what people "can" do to other people then almost no one should be left in a car alone. I'm 5' tall and weigh 100 lbs. People can do all kinds of things to me if they want and yet I am alone in public all the time.

In MD the law says you can't leave a 7 yr old alone in a car but you can leave an 8 yr old alone in a car. Are 8 yr olds more impervious to what other people can do? Of course not.

This is about the maturity level of the child. Most states have determined a 7 yr old is mature enough to sit in a car alone. Because they are. Just because you can imagine all kinds of crazy things that could happen to that 7 yr old doesn't mean they have even a remote chance of them happening.

I’m sure some 15 yr olds would be very safe drivers. And some 19 year olds can drink safely. But we live in a society here, whether or not you agree with every rule.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your car got carjacked…… !!!!

Which has happened. A woman left a disabled toddler in the car. Left it running with a key in the car. Someone stole the car with her disabled child in it.

OP's child was not disabled

OP's car was locked

What is your point?

The car was locked? Since when does a locked car keep thieves and carjackers out? You know it’s pretty easy to get in a locked car right? Do you live in some kind of leafy suburb with zero crime?

Why would a carjacker choose to jack a car that is (1) locked and (2) has a 7 year old WITNESS in the back seat?

In every case I've ever heard of where a child was involved in a carjacking, the carjackers were unaware the child was there, the child was very young (which is part of why the carjackers didn't know they were there-- they were small and sleeping or not old enough to talk), and the git rid of the car or got the child out of the car when they realized the child was there because they don't want to get caught kidnapping, which carries much stiffer sentences than carjacking.

So the mere presence of a 7 yr old in a car, by itself, is a deterrent to a car jacking because carjackers don't want anything to do with kids and especially not kids capable of yelling for help or identifying them in a line up.

The fact that the car is ALSO locked is another deterrent-- you think a car jacker is going to break into a car in a parking lot right outside a business with a security guard nearby and a 7 yr old kid in the backseat? Just because the car is on?

Look, carjackers are mostly absolute morons but they are not trying to get rung up for kidnapping kids and they avoid cars that are more trouble than they are worth. This chance if a carjacker doing what you suggest is nil.

-- prosecutor who lives in a neighborhood with a statistically high number of car jackings

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yikes, this is all really disheartening. Trust me, I am not a “mommy martyr”, and in general I think that a lot of expectations on parents are way too high. But not leaving a young child (or children) alone in a car seems like a no-brainer. It’s disturbing there are posters bragging about doing this. We get it, you’re an irresponsible parent - why is that something you seem proud of? Is it more hassle to bring the kid in with you? Sure. But oh well, that’s going to happen sometimes.

OP’s kid is 7. That means he’s in 2nd grade. If you can’t leave your 2nd grader alone in car for 10 minutes, it’s either because they have profound special needs, or more likely it means that you are absolutely failing as a parent.

And everyone needs to be real - I’m not looking up the dumb@$$ arbitrary laws of whatever state I happen to be in before I use *my own judgement* to determine what I think my child can handle before I pop into a store for a few minutes.

Some of you really need to grow a spine.

It’s not about your spine or your kid’s spine. It’s about what other people can do to 7 year olds.

If you want to talk about what people "can" do to other people then almost no one should be left in a car alone. I'm 5' tall and weigh 100 lbs. People can do all kinds of things to me if they want and yet I am alone in public all the time.

In MD the law says you can't leave a 7 yr old alone in a car but you can leave an 8 yr old alone in a car. Are 8 yr olds more impervious to what other people can do? Of course not.

This is about the maturity level of the child. Most states have determined a 7 yr old is mature enough to sit in a car alone. Because they are. Just because you can imagine all kinds of crazy things that could happen to that 7 yr old doesn't mean they have even a remote chance of them happening.

I’m sure some 15 yr olds would be very safe drivers. And some 19 year olds can drink safely. But we live in a society here, whether or not you agree with every rule.

Yes and in VA where OP lines and in 42 of 50 US states it is legal to leave a 7 year old alone in a car. Yet we have many posters in this thread arguing OP is a bad person for doing it.

What's next? Yelling at parents who let their kids get drivers licenses when they can legally do so? Getting mad at colleges that permit 21 year old students to drink at campus events with alcohol?

Which is it? You have to follow the law (in which case OP is fine and the security guard was out if line) or you have to use your own judgment (in which case you need to accept people may have different judgment than you)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's against the law where I am but I do it occasionally. My toddler was sick, fell asleep in the car, older siblings had an outdoor swim lesson. I double parked where I shouldn't have and kept checking on him for drop off/pick up. Sue me!

So you illegally parked and illegally left your child in the car? Wow parent of the year here

Should I have blown off the last swim lesson where I would have found out if they passed the level or should I have drug the sick toddler out of the car?

I wouldn't have brought the sick toddler with me at all. Don't you have a partner? A trusted babysitter? If I didn't have anyone to watch the toddler, I would have cancelled the class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yikes, this is all really disheartening. Trust me, I am not a “mommy martyr”, and in general I think that a lot of expectations on parents are way too high. But not leaving a young child (or children) alone in a car seems like a no-brainer. It’s disturbing there are posters bragging about doing this. We get it, you’re an irresponsible parent - why is that something you seem proud of? Is it more hassle to bring the kid in with you? Sure. But oh well, that’s going to happen sometimes.

OP’s kid is 7. That means he’s in 2nd grade. If you can’t leave your 2nd grader alone in car for 10 minutes, it’s either because they have profound special needs, or more likely it means that you are absolutely failing as a parent.

And everyone needs to be real - I’m not looking up the dumb@$$ arbitrary laws of whatever state I happen to be in before I use *my own judgement* to determine what I think my child can handle before I pop into a store for a few minutes.

Some of you really need to grow a spine.

It’s not about your spine or your kid’s spine. It’s about what other people can do to 7 year olds.

If you want to talk about what people "can" do to other people then almost no one should be left in a car alone. I'm 5' tall and weigh 100 lbs. People can do all kinds of things to me if they want and yet I am alone in public all the time.

In MD the law says you can't leave a 7 yr old alone in a car but you can leave an 8 yr old alone in a car. Are 8 yr olds more impervious to what other people can do? Of course not.

This is about the maturity level of the child. Most states have determined a 7 yr old is mature enough to sit in a car alone. Because they are. Just because you can imagine all kinds of crazy things that could happen to that 7 yr old doesn't mean they have even a remote chance of them happening.

I’m sure some 15 yr olds would be very safe drivers. And some 19 year olds can drink safely. But we live in a society here, whether or not you agree with every rule.

Yes and in VA where OP lines and in 42 of 50 US states it is legal to leave a 7 year old alone in a car. Yet we have many posters in this thread arguing OP is a bad person for doing it.

What's next? Yelling at parents who let their kids get drivers licenses when they can legally do so? Getting mad at colleges that permit 21 year old students to drink at campus events with alcohol?

Which is it? You have to follow the law (in which case OP is fine and the security guard was out if line) or you have to use your own judgment (in which case you need to accept people may have different judgment than you)?

OP leaves that out until page 5 that she was in VA. Multiple people asked where knowing the rules were different but curiously no answer for 5 pages. But, no I don’t trust people and their own judgment and prefer rules and laws to protect the rest of us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your car got carjacked…… !!!!

Which has happened. A woman left a disabled toddler in the car. Left it running with a key in the car. Someone stole the car with her disabled child in it.

OP's child was not disabled

OP's car was locked

What is your point?

The car was locked? Since when does a locked car keep thieves and carjackers out? You know it’s pretty easy to get in a locked car right? Do you live in some kind of leafy suburb with zero crime?

Why would a carjacker choose to jack a car that is (1) locked and (2) has a 7 year old WITNESS in the back seat?

In every case I've ever heard of where a child was involved in a carjacking, the carjackers were unaware the child was there, the child was very young (which is part of why the carjackers didn't know they were there-- they were small and sleeping or not old enough to talk), and the git rid of the car or got the child out of the car when they realized the child was there because they don't want to get caught kidnapping, which carries much stiffer sentences than carjacking.

So the mere presence of a 7 yr old in a car, by itself, is a deterrent to a car jacking because carjackers don't want anything to do with kids and especially not kids capable of yelling for help or identifying them in a line up.

The fact that the car is ALSO locked is another deterrent-- you think a car jacker is going to break into a car in a parking lot right outside a business with a security guard nearby and a 7 yr old kid in the backseat? Just because the car is on?

Look, carjackers are mostly absolute morons but they are not trying to get rung up for kidnapping kids and they avoid cars that are more trouble than they are worth. This chance if a carjacker doing what you suggest is nil.

-- prosecutor who lives in a neighborhood with a statistically high number of car jackings

Do you think a carjacker is logical? I've heard enough stories

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can totally leave it running for the AC, leave the key fob with the kid and have them lock the door. Then when you get back, they unlock it for you. 7 is plenty old to do this.

I worry about a car jacker showing up with a gun and demanding that the car be unlocked.

You are worrying about a fantasy that will never happen.

Yeah. You tell ‘em.

Or…

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/two-juveniles-sought-in-car-theft-with-child-inside-in-northwest-dc-police/3172083/

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/4-month-old-girl-found-after-being-taken-in-georgetown-car-theft/3508529/

Those cars were not parked in parking lots with security guards-- they were parked on the street.

The kids in those cases were much younger. In the case of the infant, the carjacker likely did not even realize the baby was in the car for some time.

It's also not clear how long those cars were left idling. In the infant case the mom left the car to go into a perfume store (wtf). Are these cases of people running short errands nearby or are they cases of people using leaving kids in idling cars for 30 or 60 minutes?

The PP is envisioning a situation where a carjacker approaches a locked car with a 7 year old visible in the back seat, and in full view of the security guard and what I'm sure are security cameras outside the pharmacy, points a gun at the child and demands they unlock the car. In the 3-5 minutes the mom was inside the pharmacy.

This will not happen.

So the security guard was babysitting the child? Is that his job?

I actually do think it's his job. It was a few minutes and the mom was right inside. The child is 7, not 2.

The other day I was at the grocery store with my 8 yr old and it started pouring rain while we were in the store. DD was in flipflops (post swim class) and I decided to run and get the car and pick her up at the curb. I left her in the vestibule next to the door. I did consider this a reasonably safe option in part because there was a security guard posted near the door and the area is monitored by cameras.

Am I a derelict parent for leaving an elementary kid alone in public for a few minutes?

It is your primary responsibility as a parent to keep your child safe. You make the guard’s job harder by handing over that job to the guard because you can’t turn off the car while you run into the store. So self-centered.

Again -- in a functional society no one considers a security guard keeping an eye on an older kid in a car for 10 minutes to be "baby-sitting." It's just being a person in society. But the US is not functional around families and children so we have this deranged idea that from birth until like 12 or 13 a parent must have eyes on their child at all times OR be paying a professional child minder to watch their kid. It is nonsensical and is actually BAD for kids in the long run.

The point is that a 7 year old is actually perfectly capable of handling themselves in a car for a few minutes. The security guard is not a baby-sitter (it's not a baby!) but is a layer of social protection against some of the rare and unlikely circumstances people are fretting about -- a carjacking or car accident. Those things are almost definitely not going to happen and the presence of a security guard makes them less likely.

This is how watching kids works in normal societies where kids are viewed as normal and necessary. People in other countries do not freak out when they see an unattended 7 year old in a public space where there are responsible adults present because why would they -- that kid is safe. It is only in the US where we have all been convinced that this is a dangerous situation thanks to the efforts of scare mongers who are mostly trying to rally hatred of working mothers and poor people (if it's illegal to leave any child alone for any length of time for any reason then I guess women have to stay home with kids for 18 years and poor people should not have kids at all right).

It’s not his job. If he’s busy watching the kid then he’s not doing his actual job. What a selfish viewpoint. It’s your job to keep an eye on your own kids and you’re neglecting it. Why aren’t you doing the job youself?

It’s not a job! It’s a child living their life in a public space. It’s perfectly safe.

But I won’t do it. Because of people like you. And it adds to the stress of parenting.

The birth rate will continue to decline. The high costs combined with the intense expectations are just unbearable.

I did my part. I had 3 kids. And I made them come with me to run errands and into the store and carried my tantrum prone daughter like a football to drop her older brother off in preschool because we weren’t allowed to leave them in the car. My daughter wanted to stay and play too, so dragging her in for drop off was a nightmare but i had no choice. Everyone gets through it. Luckily my kids are legit old enough to stay at home. I don’t leave them in the car because they will for sure fight. Mostly I just plan my errands for when the kids aren’t with me. Your 7 yr olds aren’t old enough yet but will be soon.

Your tantruming kid could have slipped from your arms and ran in front of a car. Or fallen and hit her head.

Like you do realize there’s a small risk of something bad happening in either scenario. You’re not morally superior for dragging a screaming kid out of the car. Also I too have 3 kids (ages 10, 7, and 3) and none of my kids scream at having to run an errand. Soooo I can one up you there if you want to play that game.

Well, my tantrumming kid also has special needs, but yay you for not having that extra burden! She has a developmental disability, are we still playing the game?

Oooh I knew you were going to say that and I almost my mentioned in my prior post I have a kid with SNs (AuDHD). I know how to avoid taking him places when he may get dysregulated.

Cool, cool. Guess you don’t have to deal with leaving a kid in a car bc you never have to take your kids everywhere. So not sure what your issue is here? You have no experience. Also of course you knew i was gojng to say that because kids acting inappropriately usually have a reason why theh act that way. But you knew that, supposedly.

I was mimicking how asinine your “I had 3 kids so I did my part and I did it better than you” spiel was. You’re not a better parent just because you took your tantruming kid into a store. You assessed the risks and made a choice that was right for you. But there were still small risks of taking them into the store. Just like there are small risks of leaving a kid in the car. One isn’t necessarily morally superior than the other.

Ok. I didn’t “assess the risks” i had a toddler and it was against the rules to leave kids in the car. I didn’t decide the rule didn’t apply to me because I’m an uppity princess. You acting like people don’t have more kids because of leaving kids in cars rules is what is asinine.

DP. The example you gave was of a preschool that had a rule that you not leave kids in cars when you pick up your kids. I find that rule idiotic if the preschool has it's own parking lot and would have advocated for a more reasonable set up like maybe doing pick up outside where parents can stay within site of their cars or parents signing up as volunteer "parking lot monitors" to make it easier for parents to do drop off and pick up without having to bring in one or more other kids (who might be napping or tantrumming).

You think you're superior because you blindly followed a bad rule with bad outcomes. Who did it benefit for you to drag a screaming toddler across a parking lot to pick up your other kid. It didn't benefit you or your kid or the other kids or the other parents. It didn't even benefit the preschool! It was just a dumb rule.

And now you want to yell at other parents doing the perfectly reasonable thing you were prevented from doing because hey if you had to deal with stupid anti-family rules then so should everyone else. You just don't like the idea of other parents having it easier than you did. But I actually do like the idea of making the world more family friendly than it was when my kids were small! I want parents to have it easier and I want us to have sane and reasonable rules that make sense for families. Not least because if my own daughter has kids I don't want it to be as hard for her as it was for me for no good reason.

I think I’m superior? OK. Maybe I can just pick the hill to die on. It wasn’t worth it to me to fight the school on this particular rule. I couldn’t see the car for the duration of the drop off and pick up. My DD might have been screaming in the car distressing people who would walk by. Weighing all the pros and cons I came down on the side of I’ll just take her in. We walk fast and get in and get out. As an adult I’m well equipped to manage an 18 month old.

OK so let's apply that logic to OP:

OP can just pick the hill to die on. It wasn't worth it to her to fight her cranky 7 year old on whether or not to come into the pharmacy. She was only going in for a few minutes and the car was in a safe and quiet neighborhood and her 7 year old is capable of coming to find her if absolutely necessary. If she'd brought her kid in the pharmacy he might have been disruptive to the people who work there or other customers or he may have refused to listen to her in the parking lot and risked getting hit by a car. Weighing all the pros and cons OP came down on the side of just leaving him in the car. She was just picking something up that was already ready and could get in and get out. As an adult OP is well equipped to manage a 7 year old.

I find it ironic that you give examples of this kid being wild in the cvs but this same kid is ok to leave in a running car? If a kid yells etc in cvs I politely ignore.

But this kid just didn't want to go in. He did not have any special needs that indicated he was unable to behave in a store.

Problem is op lets the kid call the shots

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s remember there’s not some magical thing that happens upon midnight on a child’s 8th birthday. They are not sprinkled with fairy dust and determined to be safe at that time.

I mean, the magical thing that happens is they can legally be left alone. It’s sort of like the magic about drinking when you turn 21.

Right. So some of us actually get be our kid's alcohol before they turn 21, even though it's illegal, specifically because we want to teach them about alcohol and how to create name it responsibly before they are 21 yr old college kids.

Like some of us want to be able to guide and prepare our kids for increasing levels of independence and responsibility. Leave them in a car alone for 3 minutes in a pharmacy parking lot with a security guard in a safe neighborhood while I run inside. Give a 17 yr old a half glass of wine with dinner on vacation so they can learn how alcohol impacts them in a safe environment. These laws don't help you actually raise kids. A drinking and of 21 is idiotic and we all know it-- kids legally can't drink until they've been adults for 3 years? What? A 7 year old can't wait in outside in a car fir a few minutes? These are nonsensical provisions for good patents because obviously part of parenting is slowly introducing your child to greater levels of independence and responsibility. You have to TEACH kids how to be in the world. They don't magically gain this knowledge on their birthday.

Mydh and my family is riddled with alcoholics so no I did not encourage them to 'belly up to the bar' there is need for alcohol. I've seen too many lives ruined. Same for pot and other drugs.

You can teach independence but not this way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s remember there’s not some magical thing that happens upon midnight on a child’s 8th birthday. They are not sprinkled with fairy dust and determined to be safe at that time.

I mean, the magical thing that happens is they can legally be left alone. It’s sort of like the magic about drinking when you turn 21.

Right. So some of us actually get be our kid's alcohol before they turn 21, even though it's illegal, specifically because we want to teach them about alcohol and how to create name it responsibly before they are 21 yr old college kids.

Like some of us want to be able to guide and prepare our kids for increasing levels of independence and responsibility. Leave them in a car alone for 3 minutes in a pharmacy parking lot with a security guard in a safe neighborhood while I run inside. Give a 17 yr old a half glass of wine with dinner on vacation so they can learn how alcohol impacts them in a safe environment. These laws don't help you actually raise kids. A drinking and of 21 is idiotic and we all know it-- kids legally can't drink until they've been adults for 3 years? What? A 7 year old can't wait in outside in a car fir a few minutes? These are nonsensical provisions for good patents because obviously part of parenting is slowly introducing your child to greater levels of independence and responsibility. You have to TEACH kids how to be in the world. They don't magically gain this knowledge on their birthday.

Mydh and my family is riddled with alcoholics so no I did not encourage them to 'belly up to the bar' there is need for alcohol. I've seen too many lives ruined. Same for pot and other drugs.

You can teach independence but not this way.

Possibly, but independence is different from being confident and self-reliant. Independence means you can take care of yourself, but it doesn’t mean that you do so without anxiety, worry and depression. Being confident, self-reliant AND independent does come from making decisions (large and small) and dealing with the consequences without someone hovering around you or unable to trust you.